Australian Standards – a Trillion Dollar Gap?

As an engineer, one thing I really appreciate when it comes to living in developed countries are various standards. They give you repeatability, predictability, security, ensure well-being of both businesses and consumer, and many other positive things. There are many posts on this forum, for example, that highlight how potentially unsafe $10 imported extensions cords can be, etc.

It’s all great, except, there seems to be no standards for housing.

As a customer, I’m not even asking about complex things like “R-value”, thermal resistance of your property. It would seem you cannot get something as simple as reliable measurement of your house/apartment dimensions. The apartment I’m renting and 3 identical apartments above my head (two of which sold recently), their measurements varied, depending on the source, between 92m2 to 110m2 – and I’m talking internal dimensions only, excluding balcony/garage. For bit larger houses, around 300m2+, I’ve seen measurements vary by over 50m2, depending what website you’re on. In many cases, I’ve seen obvious errors in measurements of properties – two adjacent bedrooms, same width on the plan, different numbers. Google search “How to obtain technical documentation of your house” returns no meaningful results. REA asked for technical documentation comes with nothing. I know there are constructions standards, but they seem to be general guides for builders, with details typically not obtainable for your specific building.

In the country full of standards, where car manufacturers are sued for misleading information about car fuel consumption, and my power cord must be compliant, why there’s no technical standards/documentation available for customers paying $1m+ for their house?

Comments

    • +4

      Exactly!
      But the rusted on problem is the current model is SELF REGULATION. Which (because of zilch policing) is NON regulation, which is why self regulation NEVER ,ever works.

    • +1

      Thanks, if standards are not enforced, means, there are no effective standards in place.

      I'm OK knowing this, just need to approach home purchase differently.

  • +1

    For houses, they have to comply with the NCC. Houses are class 1, so whenever the NCC says about class 1, that applies.
    Also, for plumbing, all plumbers will have to install to AS/NZS3500, whether hot/cold/gas/sanitary etc.

    • Not much point having plumbing that can survive a meteor impact , when the structure itself can't survive a dugong farting 1000+ kms away, and while no living human (bestowed with inspection liabilities) ever verified that the structure>> followed the standards,plans and execution of the build.

      The gap between compliance and reality is a big fat canyon thanks to piss poor policing

      • Insulation would be a nice standard to have. Most houses I've lived in bake in the sun and freeze in the winter. But if you visit a modern sky rise apartment they are often extremely well insulated and take many more hours of intense heat or cold before it starts feeling uncomfortable inside.

        Internet would be a good standard too, fast fibre internet should have been standard in all homes by now.

  • +2

    After my research the only viable solution was imported CLT construction. The fragments get manufactured in Germany, shipped and assembled by local crew with passivhaus experience. Can do tightness tests, and even passivhaus certification. You get full technical and engineering documentation.
    Expensive though, but it’s certified overseas for all the walls, doors, windows and roof which is what matters most (and you can’t fudge that in EU)

    As for for buying the cookie-cutter Aussie builders “creations” I’d be worried it’s going to collapse on itself or I’ll be living with toxic mould…

    Good insight into the state of Aussie building industry here: https://youtube.com/@Siteinspections

    • -1

      If we became a seismic activity risk area, all of sudden, entire Australian suburbs would convert to piles of bricks in the first big shake.

      • Lucky we aren't straddling technotronic plates like other places int he world..

        • -1

          Lucky.
          Funnily enough just building inner city rail/road infrastructure is enough to start the rot in some places. Mostly older well build structures. Modern suburbs couldn't hack a jackhammer 3 blocks away.
          ; )

    • The price of building here, both supply and trades is becoming ridiculous — at the same time, govt takes their several cuts of the growing pie, and then increases demand on the supply chain with their own massive building projects. In another generation, most new houses in Australia will probably be imported prefab systems craned into place, or robot-3D-printed on-site (the costs of locally made is rising faster than imports are dropping, while the quality and suitability of imports is much higher), it's very similar to our now-dead car industry.

    • +1

      CLT is definitely made locally, no need to go overseas.. they do it better in NZ, but they are in the process of shifting operations to australia. The trouble with the eu way of doing it is that the australian standards are too different. There are even companies who are trying to do it in this country, but they are hampered by the lack of standards involving passive houses. For instance the companies will make the prefabbed sections (walls etc), wrap them up so as to satisfy the passive requirements, only to have an inspector fail them as they cant view and verify the framing materials. Sure, it's not a very hard fix in this case - cut it open and seal it back up, but this adds time and expense unnecessarily. We have a long way to go in this part of the world to catch up with efficient and sustainable building methods.

      CLT is starting to gain traction, and hopefully it takes off as a construction method in the near future. Being able to complete a site install in matter of a month or 2 as well as making use of more sustainable materials is definitely a good thing.

  • Saw this exact question on Reddit last night.

    • +6

      If you put the word "non-compliant" into OZB search engine, you'll get dozens of posts where people discuss safety of $20 electrical devices.

      When it comes to $10 trillion property market in Australia, we need more debates about quality and standards.

      • -8

        Off you go Don Quixote. Good luck

      • +1

        Essentially social media goes hysterics about electrical devices because they are a soft target, and so the masses respond.

        Mostly because they are made in China and also for that chronic fear for electricity impregnated into the Australian genetic composition.

        • -3

          With good reason. Chinese dgaf about electrical safety.

          • +1

            @ProlapsedHeinous: If so, it makes me wonder why Australian resellers get them and sell them. Thinking Bunnings.

            Probably they are NOT nearly all that bad and it is just the fear bit that takes over.

  • +5

    Evil rich people & lobyists + lazy govts + lazy voters

  • +1

    You are confusing the word standard with consistent. You want everything to be consistently the same, this is different to everything being standardised. What you will find is that while the wall layout in those apartments is different creating an inconsistent floor plan, the wall type and how it is built is identical, standardising the construction methodology.

  • +1

    While advertising should not be misleading, in reality property m2 isn’t really that important. It surprises me how the US home shows seem to be so excited about it. The location, layout and other things are more important. If it was all about sq m the designers would be playing silly buggers to increase it.

    As it is some might not include cupboard space while others do, passageways may or may not be counted, then there’s minor measuring discrepancies that will multiply. Ie rounding down or up, estimating a L shaped room as a rectangle without actually measuring it correctly or using the wrong part of an angled/curved wall to calculate.

    • -1

      Do you think the username at reddit fits the OP?

      Think he must be a potty mouthed Yanky software engineer or in the US military, perhaps.

      I just don't get the dumbfkry of reddit/bargain dupe posts

      • +1

        Different communities, different answers, dead simple

        • -2

          I'm sure you'll eventually find the validation required, oh hairy one. But that won't change the situation of the topic ,one iota.
          You could have gone to the source to get the real reasons.

    • I think it's just a person who asked the same question in two different places for a wider set of opinions. OzBargain tends to have a couple of characters that visit the forums exclusively to try and bully the OP and make them look bad, so I don't blame them. It's not illegal

      I call this phenomenon "Original Poster Bias". It's clearly illustrated on the first page. OP seems a reasonable person, someone tries to cut him down and immediately gets some upvotes. OP replies and gets negged for having a grey square around his comment, and fewer initial upvotes. This continues until the bully goes too far and looks like the (profanity) they were to begin with. As further evidence, bargain huntress' comment (pondering why OP was getting negged for being reasonable) has 16+ upvotes at time of posting, which is more than any one of OP's comments currently has

      Realistically, most of the people negging the initial comment are just following the lead of a couple of people that came before then. They aren't critically evaluating what either person is saying, they just want to side with the popular opinion so they can feel part of the "correct" group

  • why there’s no technical standards/documentation available for customers paying $1m+ for their house?

    Because most buyers will not understand nor care about those standards.

    Remember most buyers do so with the bank's money (mortgage). And if everybody is buying then it must be just fine …

    Browse through brochures of new developments, including "apartments" (units really), and pictures of models drinking and lounging abound. Try to find a detailed floor plan … usually will/would be provided if you give them your e-mail.

    Buyers are getting what they ask for. Cheap and nasty but flashy and trendy.

    • Unfortunately, true. Confirms my newly shaped conclusions that poor quality housing in Australia is not only builders responsibility, but also customers (and govt) who don't care. Shocking negligence for $10 trillion market.

      • -1

        Compared to which other country ?

  • +1

    Brand new properties do come with tech specs and manuals but the owners usually dont really care about them and the documents usually gets lost when the property gets sold multiple times.

    My new property had most of the tech specs & documents provided to me such as paint color codes, electrical drawings, plumbing drawings, etc.

  • +4

    Housing construction and maintenance in Australia is "investment grade", which means as cheap as possible. The whole point of a house is to make money; the fact that people live in them is just a curious afterthought.

    • Sad, but true. Seems doing personal inspection with qualified builder is the only way to find quality here.

  • It’s all great, except, there seems to be no standards for housing… It would seem you cannot get something as simple as reliable measurement of your house/apartment dimensions… measurements varied, depending on the source, between 92m2 to 110m2

    Technical drawings are covered by AS1100 and related standards. Surveyors have to abide by the Surveyors Act 2003 as a starting point (and others depending on discipline/purpose).

    What you see in any architectural plan are the design dimensions. In engineering we typically complete the job with a set of "as built" drawings that confirm the final surveyed construction with qualification of the precision. Obviously having your residential property surveyed to a submillimetre precision would add unnecessary cost. To my knowledge residential architectural drawings are rarely, if ever, as built. This means if the builder goes off-plan (even with the owner's agreement) it will probably never be captured. That might explain the 20% variation you're seeing. Or some REA has been telling porkies.

  • +2

    https://www.youtube.com/@Siteinspections shows even customs builds at high prices are not immunes from multiple defects.

    I also believe some apartments and probably buildings are built with tofu dreg construction materials which will last just about as long as any warranty. Opal Tower is an example, but would just be the tip of the iceberg.

    • +1

      Started watching it, thanks.

      Best advice I've got so far is to accept you'll get a house with defects, just get the one that'll be easiest/cheapest to fix. Ah well.

      • There is another option, which is to build it yourself. Some people do that. Of course, it doesn't mean it will end up without defect either.

        • Precisely, no guarantee of quality of outcome. In that case, it seems a bit easier to assess what's already been delivered.

          Also the reason behind my first question about technical standards as a usual starting point in my way of thinking.
          (which now I know is not correct, as inspections seem to be the only way to get reliable answers)

  • Dimensions on real estate sites are estimated so the drawings kinda looks like the property in the same way the train map looks nothing like how the train lines actually are on the land.

    If you want something with accurate details you should as for the works as executed plans that the builder should have had done by a surveyor failing that ask the council for the DA. I did this for my apartment and they even had the correct paint codes for everything.

    For the general quality issues I'm going to blame this one on the private certifiers.

    • +3

      "Dimensions on real estate sites are estimated" - this is beyond me. Imagine car maker selling you a car that may be doing max speed of 200, or maybe just 80kmph, who knows. If I were to apply such standards in my profession, I'd be sacked long time ago.

      Ancient Egyptians were able to accurately measure circumference of the Earth, yet in 2023 we not only don't have flying cars, but cannot tell how big the bedroom is?…

  • Lucky there isn't or it would be hidden behind a paywall like all other Australian standards that we are expected to follow.

  • +3

    Australian Standards can only be enforced by legislation otherwise they are meaningless. As a consumer of Australian standards I will never be content that commercial interest isnt directing the outcome until I see a transparent declaration of conflict of interest by all the members of the committee that determine the particular standard AND the final policy is freely available to everyone. More obsessional engineers like OP need to sit on these committees to ensure more basic objective standards are part of the policies. Remember the AS where solar photovoltaic panels required rooftop switch isolators. Europe had already refused this modification and New Zealand refused to be part of the AUSNZ standard, the requirement has subsequently been withdrawn, but many isolators are installed on Aussie homes, that increase the chance of failure.

  • A lot of rentals aren’t up to any sort of standards, my own was clearly Reno’d DIY and over the years added to by un/under-qualified handymen. Everything is wonky. God only knows what is buried under the house and the soil. I’ve had to take LL’s to NCAT when they’ve tried to take my bond for their cost cutting, and one. There’s zero punishment for this shit. I spoke to Fair Work NSW about reporting a ‘property manager’ for serious misconduct in their ‘profession’ and they basically said ‘lol’.

  • If you are paying for a house you get detailed plans (not the garbage the REA sites or agents supply). So yes there are standards and they are mostly highly accurate. I have never found proper plans you obtain when buying to be inaccurate beyond the odd documented change. If you want to see an industry with incredibly poor standards you should try working in the IT industry, 3 vendors can write to the same standard and be compliant and completely incompatible.

    • So it happens I replaced my graphics card recently and still have the original box in the room. Just from that box, I can learn about the chipset used, memory type and capacity, memory bus width, output ports, maximum resolution and refresh rates, and so on.

      Technical parameters on the box alone (without looking up more on vendor website, for example) is already more than any agent I've spoken so far can tell me about the house I was looking to buy.

      I guess if you mean "build your own house", than perhaps indeed a different story.

      • +1

        ironic comparison given how untrustworthy specs are for graphics cards, from their performance measurements, heat measurements and terminology differences between vendors. What you see on the box is about as good as what is on a real estate site, it gives you the basics of location, type of property, number of rooms etc, but generally no where near enough to judge how suitable it is without 3rd party sites or first hand knowledge.

        • -1

          Not really, if you compare equivalent metrics. Never had a PC component that would have different dimensions that declared by its manufacturer.
          For housing, it's hard to figure out details as no one seem to be able to measure it properly - unless you do it yourself, that is.

          Re thermal performance, can easily get reading off the card.
          In construction, it would seem, thermal performance questions are black magic. And so on.

  • government regulations or lack of

  • +1

    You're absolutely correct OP. As a Surveyor we specialize in measurements and accuracy. Say staking out and getting the measurements for a lot or subdivision. Our team aims to get it within the nearest 10-20mm.

    From what I hear it's up to 18sqm differences in the apartment that supposedly have the same floor plans. That sounds sketchy. 1-2 sqm probable. But for apartments it shouldn't be more than 1 sqm difference.

    Most likely they have changed their floor plans, extra pillars and walls has been erected etc.Ill bet my bottom dollar their final floor plans isn't going to be the same as yours.

    • I think I have fallen a victim of sales pitch, to be perfectly honest.

      I had no idea it is legal for the REA/seller to draft up their own plan, put estimated numbers and publish it as a "floor plan". It's a floor doodle, at best, hence these big discrepancies I mentioned. I know many countries where such practice would be considered highly unethical and result in a court cases. I didn't realise that with ACL and other laws so strongly protecting customers in Australia, this could be something perfectly normal.

  • +2

    You have better consumer protection buying toothpicks at a supermarket than buying a house in Australia.

    • Unfortunately, true. And if any seller would provide you with such unreliable information about product they're selling as REAs typically do, you could easily bring them to the nearest fair trading/obudsman etc. for breaching ACL.

      It seems however not quite the same story when spending millions of dollars on a property.

  • There are a number of standards in Australia and depending on the state a number of compliance requirements.

    National Construction Code sets the min. standards in Australia

    In QLD form 15 and form 16 (and a number of other forms) is required for building works and requires a 'compentent person' (normally an engineer) to sign off that the works have been designed to the appropriate standard. Ie AS 2870 for structural slab works. There have been a number of litigation cases in qld where this form has been signed, the works have failed and the engineer has been held liable and required to pay damages.

    So I wouldn't say there are no standards…

    If buying in QLD on a recent build ask the real estate for all appropriate certification forms. If they can't provide them, you don't have to buy :)

    • I've been trying to get that stuff, but apparently they're available to owners only, who are not very good, at least in the cases I've come across, in keeping records.
      Potentially to be obtained form the council, but still, there's no guarantee they'll be correct.

      I think I'll follow advices that suggest detailed property inspection with qualified builder to know what exactly has been put in place.

  • +1

    When I bought my house, I was merely asking for details about how much weight can the two flights of staris support, guess thats too much to ask for.

    • Precisely my point.

      I've seen technical docs going into thousands of pages, but that's not what I want - don't care about "War and Peace", just simple one-pager document stating correct dimensions, framing materials, insulation, etc.

      • I've seen technical docs going into thousands of pages, but that's not what I want - don't care about "War and Peace", just simple one-pager document stating correct dimensions, framing materials, insulation, etc.

        So you want thousands of pages of building codes summarised into a one page cheat sheet….? That's not how things work. If you can't be bothered reading thousands of pages to understand the codes then you should pay an expert to do it for you. Find a reputable inspector and get them to inspect it and give you a report, although that'll probably be longer than one page.

        • That's not what I meant - I have no issues reading hundreds or more pages but if they are not available, accessible, lost, getting outdated or not maintained properly (as it happens with large documentation sets), I wouldn't mind having one pagers just with key summary. And I'm not talking about the building code in general - just something to give me overview of specific parameters of the specific property I want to buy.

  • You not may be unaware of the standards if this is not your field of practice.

    The definition of GFA (General Floor Area) is found in the standard forms of realestate sales contracts. It is based on the Australian Standard Method of Measurement published by the AIQS.

    The construction standards are detailed in the Building Code of Australia, part of the National Construction Code. This references mandatory requirement from a suite of Australian Standards, published by Standards Australia.

    I think your complaint is around real estate agents not getting the correct GFA or NLA (net lettable area) on their ads. That’s a regulatory issue, not a standards one. The standards are in place.

  • The probem is, even if a major error is found, no one will do anything about it. You can complain to every single legal body available, and in the end, nothing will be done about it.

  • There are standards… which the Liberal Government kept lowering… then pushed "independent certifiers"

    So we have lower standards and non existent enforcement

  • You are new here.

    Once you understand tradies and the history of tradies in Australia you will understand the standards.

    You'll get it soon.

  • Technical specs, lol australian listings dont even say how large apartments are.

    The populace is so stupid they go to places without knowing how large it is.

  • +1

    The problem is how the building, construction and real estate industry has developed in Australia. The current status quo has developed over decades with the interests of the developers, builders and real estate having higher priority over the interests of the consumer of the housing. As is often the case, money talks and its influence over the decisions of government at all levels related to housing is obvious.

    Today we are in the position where builders believe they are a force to themselves and seldom held accountable for lack of compliance to the standards, laws and regulations in place. The labour market related to building is also a mess with basic low-skilled labourers expecting $100+K a year, skilled-labour such as tradies believe they should be paid equal or greater than medical doctors, all contributing to the exorbitant costs.

    Government at federal and state levels has turned an intentional blind eye to what is happening.

    Self regulation should be abolished. Meaningful, transparent and accessible standards should be administered at the federal level ensuring nation-wide consistency. Compliance testing and management should be no lower than state government level managed. Consumers must be empowered by accessible and understandable build standards that don't cost them $1,000s to access. Consumers should also be delivered standardised build documentation including detailed compliance and testing results.

    How do we get there? We the consumers have to be shouting at our elected representatives for change. Until our voices are louder and more influential than the developers, the current situation will remain.

  • +2

    Regarding the bulk of your question re; tech specs / measurements by REA - I would suggest that is an issue that needs to be taken up with the scum of our society, the real estate agents. I reckon if you asked a REA what R-Value or thermal resistance is you would get the blanker look than a white sheet of paper, but if you asked them what an merc A45 AMG was they would point to their one in the driveway at the open home. Being a real estate agent is the joke of high school leavers as a job of last resort when either university wont have you or you have no idea what you want to do

    There are plenty of codes, standard and laws to follow when building in Australia

    Its another thing if they are actually complied with and audited

    It doesn't help that Australian standards are not free, but there are heaps of work arounds to get them free. The national construction code (which just released a new version) is free however

    We cant get upset at the quality of Australia's housing if we are not even willing to follow the building codes, Australian standard and construction laws - rather than build as cheap as possible to flip and make a profit - like FFS we are cladding houses in packing material these days (polystyrene) - who the flip wants a house made of that garbage

  • OP, you're 100% correct that practically and ethically it's a garbage situation and most people are morons that are happy to go along with it all.

  • New to Australia OP? Because we do have building standards in this country, as mentioned already they are outlined in the Building Codes of Australia and the National Construction Codes. If you go through the texts, there are explicitly stated requirements that builders should (well, must really, but this is Australia where every second person loves to say "She'll be right, mate" and "Close enough is good enough") adhere to. There are even fancy drawings and cross sections that show how things should be built and assembled.

    The problem isn't that standards don't exist (we aren't THAT much of a third world country), the problem is that most builders and tradies simply do not follow the codes. You need to remember that tradies never paid attention in high school. All the people I knew in high school who became a tradie did the absolute bare minimum in school; what makes you think they'll put in anything above the bare minimum even when they're actually getting paid and when they're breaking their backs outside carrying around lumber and cement?

    Part of the problem too is that most people are simply ignorant to the standards we have. People who inspect a house judge it simply on face value. They see a freshly built house and don't even realise that many aspects of the house probably aren't up to code. Maybe the waterproofing in the bathroom floor isn't up to code or maybe the gutters on the roof aren't up to code. Ever go to a house inspection? People just walk around inside and say "Wow I really love the kitchen, it looks great" or "I can totally make this living room work". I mean, seriously? If people are going to lock themselves into a 20 or 30 year mortgage they should be doing whatever they can to make sure what they're buying isn't going to fall apart in 10 years or require major remedial works in 5. No one actually climbs on the roof, no one breaks out a level to check the kitchen bench, no one crawls into the roof to check whether the ducting is up to code, no one checks the markings on the windows to make sure it's up to code.

    Another problem is you have cowboy architects who design houses that look nice but in reality are actually really stupid to the point where you wonder if they had any common sense. For example low sloped roofs are more and more common these days. Why? Because the silly architect prioritised sticking to some silly aesthetic that's currently in vogue rather than what has worked for decades. And there are also building inspectors that are in the pocket of builders. It's like how PWC was auditing a company but at the same time also consulting for them, i.e. corruption.

    I would be extremely surprised if you could go out and find even one recently built house with absolutely zero non-compliant defects. It's all a complete shambles and I would not be surprised if more recent builds only last 10-15 years before needing major remedial works. The amount of rework required to get every house in this country up to code could very well go into the trillions.

    And then that begs the question: if houses cost what they do now when they're not even up to code, how much will they cost if they were built to code? There is no doubt in my mind that developers, builders, tradies and real estate agents would collude to ensure that houses cost 2-3x more what they do now because they have to "put in extra effort" — or in reality, do the freaking bare minimum because codes are minimum standards — to build them to code, and guess what, people would still pay for it.

    • Great post.

      I'm not new to Australia, but new to the industry. Never owned a house before, therefore never looked how it all works in constructions. When I started looking, I was under impressions there are no standards, as REAs/sellers were unable to tell much about technical aspects of about places being sold - even simple things like exact dimensions (mind you not talking location, how nice kitchen is, etc), so I was under impression that there are no standards.

      Obviously I was wrong, standards do exist. It's just they're not followed, as you've rightly stated. Effectively, meaning, there are no standards, and if you want to buy quality place to live long term - which I think is worth it, as I've saved tons of money on heating/cooling, for example, moving from a horrific quality rental to a truly energy efficient one - then you cannot rely on any technical specs, just need to do proper, thorough inspection with an expert, or better, build your own place.

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