(EV Geek Talk) an Observation on Charging Efficiency - Outlander PHEV MY2024

burningrage on 27/03/2024 - 13:25
Last edited 27/03/2024 - 13:39 by 1 other user

Hi all, I want to share my observation which I thought might be useful for those interested in getting EVs or PHEVs, particularly if you're interested in Outlander PHEV MY2024 model.

I recently acquired an Outlander PHEV 2024, having previously owned Outlander PHEV 2014 model since 2015 so I think I am well-versed in EV speak/metrics. Other than the car drives really nice and obviously a heavy car (more than 2 tonnes), I want to share my observation on my recent real life trip information. This will become my anchor reliability information which I may use against Mitsubishi Motors in the future

Firstly, specific to Outlander PHEV 2024, you will NOT be given a Mitsubishi EVSE but instead a Jetcharge EVSE (Model AU600038). You will however, be given a Mitsubishi branded I think 7-10meters Type 2 to Type 2 cable which are far thicker than the Jetcharge EVSE. Nice free cables I would say but no different than my previous 2014 model where I was given a 8amp and 10amp EVSE (J1772 plug).

Secondly, I am finding the trip computer (including projected EV range) is HIGHLY misleading. At one point it shows 104kms and on average around 85kms. Advertised NEDC range is 84kms. The car so far produced an on average of 20.2kwh / 100 kms or about 5kms per kwh which again, is highly misleading for the reason I will demonstrate below.

I have now completed one full real test drive with the specification below:

Trip Computer Distance - 25.7kms.
Terrain - Hilly (VIC Rowville and Wheelers Hill)
Stated Kwh/100kms = 22.2kwh / 100kms (or about 4.50kms per 1 kwh)
Fully charged at departure

Fully recharged at destination
EVSE stated power draw = 7.16Kwh
With actual distance of 25.7kms, the actual efficiency is 3.59kms per 1 kwh. This is in theory, worse than my previous 2014 PHEV equivalent.

If we were to accept 4.5kms per 1 kwh is true, than 4.50 / 3.59 = 1.25. This means an alleged 25% loss factor which theoretically caused by the conversion loss between power draw into energy stored in battery. 25% loss factor is extremely high. Acceptable loss factor range from 1% to 15% (10% average).

I wonder if anyone of you (those with EV/PHEV) ever measures loss factor with your own charging equipment? Would love to hear your experience of this.

The theory I have so far is that JetCharge EVSE is simply sub-par (cable is far thinner than Mitsubishi's previous EVSE and definitely thinner than my Mitsubishi Issued Type 2 to Type 2 cable) so that might have caused higher conversion loss. But that's my theory, I wonder if there may other reason.

So the conclusion? If we extrapolate this behaviour to general EV, that means your stated range would be heavily overstated (eg: A 400km stated range Tesla might actually be 20% lesser in reality) and you'd be best not to charge at home unless you have to because the loss factor is materially high (use public charger ChaDeMo/CSS instead)

It also means if you are interested in Outlander PHEV MY24, you need to be aware of what you're up to including its limitation.

Hope this helps.

Zz

Automotive Car Mitsubishi PHEV SUV

Comments

  • spackbace on 27/03/2024 - 13:33

    that means your stated range would be heavily overstated (eg: A 400km stated range Tesla might actually be 20% lesser in reality)

    That's pretty much always a given, isn't it? Reviewers always mention the difference between real-world, and on paper figures.

    Not to mention the difference in ambient temperatures having an effect.

    @pegaxs care to weigh in?

    • pegaxs on 27/03/2024 - 13:48
      +12

      Holy shit, page me in for a wall of text… Give me a min to absorb some of this, I'll brb… :D

      • Baysew on 27/03/2024 - 14:03
        +7

        TL;DR - YMMV.

      • burningrage on 27/03/2024 - 14:43
        +4

        Lol! Sorry bud. I'll do better next time.

    • HeWhoKnows on 28/03/2024 - 10:00
      -2

      So without all the technical mumbo jumbo..

      EVs are not everything they are made out to be.

      And considering on a long country trip you would be charging at a diesel powered charging staion at exhorbitant rates after waiting for how long to connnect and then charge???

      Whats the point of having an EV????

      This only proves that "Boof Head" Bowen has no idea.
      In fact he has had no idea about anything he has been involved with.

      CONCLUSION
      EVs are only practical as a metro car and probably cheaper to run that a petrol vehicle in the city.
      But they have enormous issues and inconveniences

      • LFO on 28/03/2024 - 19:07

        The OP has an hybrid not an EV.

        These observation are extremely useful and detailed but, in my opinion are only applicable to this particular hybrid, a vehicle with electric power train but with a mix of ICE and battery performance.

  • Dumax on 27/03/2024 - 13:58
    +9

    Advertised NEDC range is 84kms

    Not
    Even
    Damn
    Close

    I don't think that you can fairly base any observations from a single trip.

  • jugsy on 27/03/2024 - 14:04
    +4

    Once a week someone uses a lithium battery for the first time and posts a thread like this

  • Euphemistic on 27/03/2024 - 14:20

    Basing your assumption on one trip is not great. You really need to get a dozen or more and average it to determine if youve got significant difference from stock.

    Doent the car emasure how much goes in? In that case, the cable shouldnt make any difference. Unless maybe the voltage is lower and its only measuring amps amd calculating fdom amps on standard voltage.

  • pegaxs on 27/03/2024 - 14:24
    +12

    you will NOT be given a Mitsubishi EVSE but instead a Jetcharge EVSE

    Really? Would it ease your pain if they slapped a Mitsubishi sticker on it for you? So long as it is a compatible charger… Most cars only get a dinky little 8a granny charger IF they get anything at all…

    I am finding the trip computer (including projected EV range) is HIGHLY misleading.

    You are just working out now that car manufactures lie? It's nothing more than a "best guess" that your car is making based on previous usage and current usage habits. Next you'll be telling me that your speedo is off by 3km/h as well… You would think that Mitsubishi would try and not lie, considering they got the shit fined out of them not that long about about lying about range on their vehicles…

    Terrain - Hilly
    Stated Kwh/100kms = 22.2kwh / 100kms

    Sounds about right for driving an porker SUV EV around in "hilly terrain"

    EVSE stated power draw = 7.16Kwh

    Minus losses. You are not getting 7.16kWh out of the EVSE with 0 losses going into your vehicle. If 7.16kWh went through the EVSE, your car only got about 6.5kWh worth. The rest is burnt up in "losses" (heat, resistance/law of thermodynamics/etc… imagine it's like fuelling a car with petrol but some of it evaporates while you are filling.)

    With that being said, you can calculate your actual consumption based on how much you "actually" filled up.

    25.7/6.5 = 3.95km/kWh… And for punting your 2.1t poo barge around in "hilly terrain", that probably isnt too bad… Next complaint… "My PHEV uses more than expected on the freeway run from Rowville into the CBD…"

    tht being said. The "claim" is that you get a 20kWh battery with 84km of range, or 4.2km/kWh… so, at 3.95km/kWh, it's probably not bad for "hilly terrain"

    This means an alleged 25% loss factor

    First time owning an EV?? My 10a granny charger says it is pulling 2400w. My car (that reports what is actually going into the battery) says I am getting 1700w. That's almost a 30% loss. Imagine filling your car with fuel and spilling 30% of it on the ground… Sucks.

    I wonder if anyone of you (those with EV/PHEV) ever measures loss factor with your own charging equipment?

    Yep… ALLLL the time. On my wall charger, it will tell me 7.2kW, my car will be telling me 6.2kW (my car measures at the battery, not at the plug), that's about 15% loss. I have energy consumption meters hooked up to my car that tells me how much a draw from the grid/solar and how much ends up in the car.

    that means your stated range would be heavily overstated

    Is this the first car you have ever owned? EVERY car is "overstated". Christ, almost 1/2 my day is spent tracing fuel consumption issues in cars that just dont exist all because "hey, my VF SS only gets 3km/l, but the book says I should be getting 18km/l…" only to hear them drive out of our workshop like they are on their way to Daytona to try out for a NASCAR race…

    use public charger ChaDeMo

    Please dont tell me that Mitsubishi are still using CHAdeMO in 2024, in Australia?? FFS. There would only be 3 fast chargers left. This needs to be kicked in the balls by ADR compliance.

    • Muzeeb on 27/03/2024 - 14:45
      +4

      only to hear them drive out of our workshop like they are on their way to Daytona

      You have to admit that it does sound bloody awesome though.

    • burningrage on 27/03/2024 - 14:55

      "Really? Would it ease your pain if they slapped a Mitsubishi sticker on it for you? So long as it is a compatible charger…"
      My previous 2014 EVSE had thicker cable than this one. If I am not mistaken, was it you who also had Outlander before?

      "You are just working out now that car manufactures lie"
      Strangely again my last Outlander was relatively accurate. Having been drained to 65% SOH, it could only do 27kms and most of the times it did 27-29kms. One thing I haven't tested is the Fuel Efficiency (my lifetime 2014MY was 1.9lt/100kms) for my new model. Currently 1.6 and will test when I do a full refill tonight.

      "25.7/6.5 = 3.95km/kWh… And for punting your 2.1t poo barge around in "hilly terrain", that probably isnt too bad… Next complaint… "My PHEV uses more than expected on the freeway run from Rowville into the CBD…"

      tht being said. The "claim" is that you get a 20kWh battery with 84km of range, or 4.2km/kWh… so, at 3.95km/kWh, it's probably not bad for "hilly terrain""
      This is good feedback. Ofc, freeway will be crappy. I haven't quite tested total freeway drive as yet but trip along South Eastern Freeway from Wellington Road (VIC) to Chadstone (VIC) seems no different than my previous 2014 model.

      "First time owning an EV?? My 10a granny charger says it is pulling 2400w. My car (that reports what is actually going into the battery) says I am getting 1700w. That's almost a 30% loss. Imagine filling your car with fuel and spilling 30% of it on the ground… Sucks."
      Wow! 30% loss? I swear my previous Mitsubishi's issued EVSE was not that bad.

      "Yep… ALLLL the time. On my wall charger, it will tell me 7.2kW, my car will be telling me 6.2kW (my car measures at the battery, not at the plug), that's about 15% loss. I have energy consumption meters hooked up to my car that tells me how much a draw from the grid/solar and how much ends up in the car."
      Mind sharing the measurement equipment details? I might be interested.

      "Please dont tell me that Mitsubishi are still using CHAdeMO in 2024, in Australia?? FFS. There would only be 3 fast chargers left. This needs to be kicked in the balls by ADR compliance."
      Yes they still are. Chargefox, JOLT, and Engie chargers I have seen so far they all have ChaDeMo chargers. Example: Glen Shoppingtown (VIC) has ChaDeMo. Last night I tested using ChaDeMo for the first time using JOLT, it was very quick nearly 7kwh in 16 minutes.

      • pegaxs on 27/03/2024 - 17:08
        -1

        My previous 2014 EVSE had thicker cable than this one.

        Cable thickness has nothing to do with it, wire thickness does though. It can also depend on cable length…. So, if you have a 7~10m cable, that could be causing much more of a drop off then say, a 2~3m cable.

        was it you who also had Outlander before?

        Work did and I drove it… But difference is that it was a 2018 LS 2WD non-EV. So, it's running on battery alone was terrible.

        Strangely again my last Outlander was relatively accurate.

        Strangely enough, you have driven this car once to test it… in hilly suburban roads. Give it a few more cycles there, champ, see if it flattens out.

        I haven't quite tested total freeway drive as yet

        I look forward to the update…

        That's almost a 30% loss

        Yep, hence the reason I dont use it. The lower the charge rate and the crapier the EVSE, the worse the charging rate losses will be.

        Mind sharing the measurement equipment details? I might be interested.

        It's a 3 phase amp clamp setup. It's not 100% accurate like an inline meter would be, but it's close enough. It's an Engage Efergy. Comes with a phone app and you can export data into CSV files, etc.

        Yes they still are. (using CHAdeMO)

        JFC. That would be a "no buy!" from me if in 2024 I turned up and it had a CHAdeMO port on it.

        7kwh in 16 minutes.

        WTF? It DC charges at 26~ish kW on DC? And I thought my BYD at 89kW was piss poor. It would take you longer to charge your battery at 20kWh then would it would take to fill mine at 60kWh.

        Yes they still are. (CHAdeMO charging stations)

        And this is why we cant have nice things. I am finally getting a DC charger closer to me and it is only going to be 2 bays, but 4 outlets. 2 of those outlets are going to be CHAdeMO, which they should be phasing out with ADR… The Outlander comes with a type 2 socket, so half of CCS2 is already there… and they still went and put a CHAdeMO plug on it?

        • burningrage on 27/03/2024 - 21:20

          Cable thickness has nothing to do with it

          My length cable is 5 metres, seems shorter but that's what the spec said.

          It's a 3 phase amp clamp setup. It's not 100% accurate like an inline meter would be, but it's close enough. It's an Engage Efergy. Comes with a phone app and you can export data into CSV files, etc.

          Thank you!

          WTF? It DC charges at 26~ish kW on DC?

          About 24Kwh-ish per hour. Next time I'll screenshot it. It wasn't bad. CHAdeMO is actually capable to do bi-directional which I am assuming to do with the fact that Outlander can do VTL/VTH/VTG. I can confirm it can do VTL already. I won't be able to test VTH/VTG because I need special equipment to do that.

    • burningrage on 27/03/2024 - 15:08

      "Next you'll be telling me that your speedo is off by 3km/h as well…"

      I'll comment on this one for comparison.

      My 2019 CX9 seems to overstate the actual speed by 2-3kms when I tested on 80/100kms road on cruise control vs Waze.
      My 2014 Outlander PHEV seemed to have overstated actual speed by 5-7kms using the same methodology vs Waze.
      My 2024 Outlander PHEV currently seems to overstate actual speed by up to 3kms (minimum 2kms from observation but never 4kms) using the same methodology vs Waze.

      Seems consistent between newer gen cars. Up to 3kms differential vs Waze so far.

  • FoxJump on 27/03/2024 - 14:28
    -1

    I dont have an EV
    but, just like my "8L/100km car that really uses 10L/100km"
    and my "9.1L/100km car that really uses 13L/100km"

    I would take any EV range and literally take 1/3 out.
    Remove 1/3 because traffic, aircon, lights at night, and heater in winter.
    Then on top, factor in a 10 to 20% loss of capacity after 10years.

    • Muzeeb on 27/03/2024 - 14:44
      +1

      My car claims 7.3L/100km combined and my long term average is 5.8L/100km - I mostly drive flat regional highways.

      • Baysew on 27/03/2024 - 20:05
        +3

        Downhill both ways?

    • burningrage on 27/03/2024 - 14:57

      Yes. Sensible approximation.

      On that 25.7kms test trip I did, no air con was used and no highway drive. Just normal suburban drive. Terrain, again, was hilly admitedly.

    • freefall101 on 27/03/2024 - 15:05
      +1

      EVs are incredibly sensitive to any change too due to the efficiency levels, a decent headwind will kill the mileage of it much more than a petrol car.

      I regularly do a 150km each way drive to my parents place, even knocking 2-3km/h off the cruise control can have a pretty big impact. Getting stuck in traffic can often be an improvement because there's less air resistance at lower speeds, I use next to nothing on the morning crawl to work.

      The whole advantage of having a car that's easy to charge at home means I simply leave it charged most of the time. Then I don't need to worry about range at all.

      • burningrage on 27/03/2024 - 15:11

        Exactly my observation so far re: charging principles.

        I didn't realize wind resistance affected EV so much but on my MY24 Outlander PHEV, I noticed the driving feeling is different when driving on the highway between 80kms and 100kms. It almost feels like it should be driven no faster than 80kms in EV mode but ofc, no problem if you hit the pedal to 100-120km/hr.

  • changyang1230 on 27/03/2024 - 14:49
    +1

    You are conflating two different things here. One is the difference between fridge sticker range and the real world range; the other being the charging inefficiency.

    The former is a well documented phenomenon, the fridge sticker range is based on ideal lab conditions and is a lot more optimistic than real world driving. Most cars you multiply around 80% for the real world range, and obviously it depends on climate, speed, terrain, driver enthusiasm etc.

    The latter is also well documented though not discussed as much in forums. There’s always a difference between how much kWh is drawn from the grid (or solar or home battery or a combination) and how much goes into the battery. There are multiple reasons behind this, namely heating of the charging cable, running of the charging circuit in the car, and the onboard computer. For my Tesla this loss generally amounts to around 3-5% (it can be recorded by third party apps eg Teslamate or Tessie).

    So yeah these are all known factors.

    • burningrage on 27/03/2024 - 15:00

      "For my Tesla this loss generally amounts to around 3-5% (it can be recorded by third party apps eg Teslamate or Tessie)."

      This is good observation. I noticed when I did some test drive, ranges don't drop easily with Teslas (I test driven 3s and Ys) so I wouldn't be surprised if the loss was that low.

      Maybe MG, Polestar owners can share?

  • netjock on 27/03/2024 - 15:35

    Terrain - Hilly (VIC Rowville and Wheelers Hill)

    This is your first problem as pointed out.

    I drive a cheap Toyota hybrid (read Corolla not the cross) and I hate hilly areas.
    Acceleration will take away car energy especially when you have a heavy vehicle.
    Then deceleration which you might need to stay within speed limit or just traffic will not get you good re-generation into the batteries.
    Plus the belief that official figures are realistic or you live in ideal conditions that replicate the test course.
    Lastly the hybrid system isn't the best in Mitsubishi.
    I would think conversion from AC charging would be the least likely problem.

  • Look Up on 27/03/2024 - 15:51
    +1

    Outlander PHEV MY2024 is just a poor design and will have catastrophic resale

    Undersized 20kWh lithium-ion battery that is continually cycled and experiences premature battery wear

    With Renault recently signing a deal with Geely, the next set of EV's from Mitsubishi will blow this in-house garbage away

    • burningrage on 27/03/2024 - 21:24

      Fortunately, I won't have to worry about that for the next 10 years with their 10 years guarantee and 8 years/160k degradation warranty. Prolly closer to 160k, I'll drive the battery SoH down to 65.99% lol. Problem is I cannot use my EVBatMon or PHEV Watchdog App for my Outlander 2024 as they don't support this car.

  • jhaley3180 on 28/03/2024 - 07:37

    Just like ICE cars have an modeled fuel efficiency, so to do EVs have a modeled range. These are a standardized model to enable the average person to compare apples with apples. Unless you drive the vehicle under the exact conditions of the model, your actual range will be different. Your range will be affected by do many things outside the model, wind, temperature, traffic, road surface, tyre pressure etc.

  • saltypete on 28/03/2024 - 09:17

    The Mitzi is a heavy, brick shaped vehicle with a small battery and minimal drivetrain to move it under.battery. Hills, wind velocity, road surface and tyre inflation/tread pattern are going to make big differences compared to something lighter or an EV.
    Likely also suffering from the ‘next model’ issue where the first new thing is developed with a lot of bias towards getting the engineering right. The next few models Engineering are quietly told to p@ss off and just fix what broke - and the style and marketing are allowed to add bloat.

    A bit perplexed by your conclusion on charging. Heat from faster charging would generally have ohms turning amps to heat so I would think that a properly specified home cable would give greater efficiency.

    • burningrage on 29/03/2024 - 21:26

      A bit perplexed by your conclusion on charging. Heat from faster charging would generally have ohms turning amps to heat so I would think that a properly specified home cable would give greater efficiency.

      What I am saying is if you have to spend an extra 25% of power to fill in the battery (eg: 25kwh to fill in a 20kwh battery), then best to do it on a free public charger rather than from home which would cost an extra somewhere between 40c (8c super off peak price perkwh x 5kwh) to $1.75 (35c peak price x 5kwh), extrapolating 365 days mean extra up to $638.75 per annum.

  • SlickMick on 28/03/2024 - 09:40

    I don't really understand what you're saying, but I have range issues with a CX-60 that might be a little relevant perhaps.

    Stated range is up to 72km. Charging to 90%, we were getting 52km. Happy with that.
    Then it suddenly plummeted to only 20km. Possible factors: a) I'd charged it to 100% before a longer trip, and b) when we got back I left it with only 20km of petrol range.
    I filled the petrol tank, and the next charge was back to 44km. So a significant recovery after a week of <50%.
    I'm wondering whether it reserves a heap of battery when it's low on fuel, despite running on EV-only mode??

    Yeah, now that it's in writing, probably totally irrelevant to what you're saying. Sorry.

    • burningrage on 29/03/2024 - 21:16
      +1

      That's a funny behaviour. Have you raised this with Mazda?

  • Seksistefan on 28/03/2024 - 12:53

    2023 Outlander PHEV - lowest 13.1KW/100. Average ~19. Rest my case. Good Car.

    • burningrage on 29/03/2024 - 21:17

      If that's true average (that is, charged full and then do an observation trip and reverse calculate), then it's awesome.

  • alexlim2000 on 28/03/2024 - 14:59

    My question to fellow EV owners -

    Do your drive using Pulse and Glide style? (a habbit I learnt from driving a Toyota Prius to help hypermile).

    I find driving an EV (atto3) a lot more fun than a hybrid and end up lead footing everywhere, though this is because I charge mostly at home for free.

    • burningrage on 29/03/2024 - 21:18

      What is Pulse and Glide? You mean like no regen braking and let the car glide?

    • SlickMick on 01/04/2024 - 19:56
      +1

      No.

      Please don't do this.

      How annoying are the people who "pulse" when approaching an overtaking lane? And you're doing that continually???

  • LFO on 28/03/2024 - 19:14

    Not familiar with specific of this Mitsu Outlander PHEV MY2024.
    But, being a hybrid, with an ICE that will kick in (start running) as needed measuring the performance of specifically the EV-battery aspect seems rather impossible.

    Is that the case or you can totally and completely disable the ICE (internal combustion engine) at will?
    Could you isolate battery and fuel engine at will?

    • burningrage on 29/03/2024 - 21:21

      Yes I can. For MY24 Outlander PHEV, to disengage the ICE (total zero use of petrol), you need to ensure you drive using D mode (not B mode which is manual regenerative braking) and click the button to switch to EV mode. So no handpedal use. Driving in D mode still allow regenerative braking but is automatic. Even my dealership didn't know this after already owning a model PHEV 2022 for more than 2 years.

      When the car starts, it always engage NORMAL mode (which is new for Outlander PHEV - 2014 model didn't have this mode) which means the computer decides when to use petrol and EV and earlier I discovered, it randomly triggered the engine for petrol for no reason.

  • burningrage on 29/03/2024 - 21:23

    Tomorrow I will do another observation trip again from Rowville to Geelong from full charge to zero. Terrain expected to be mildly descending 50% of the trip BUT will mostly drive on highway (80%). Will report back with the result.

    • burningrage on 30/03/2024 - 22:14

      Total distance 79.6kms with one stop before the ICE kicks in. At 20Kwh Battery Capacity (full), it translates to nearly 4kms on 70% highway (Geelong was busy) and full air conditioning turned on.

      Not bad.

  • lgacb08 on 02/04/2024 - 20:51

    Your cable thickness has nothing to do with it, 8a draw only has same copper thickness as your house lighting wiring, which is tiny, heat loss is tiny even for 10 times that length. Most of the cable are just plastic to give you perceived quality. Of those only the 45kw charging station might have noticeable copper thickness in them to handle 100a current.

  • IMadeYouReadThis on 17/04/2024 - 09:24

    Hi OP, thanks for starting this thread.

    In a nutshell, would you recommend Outlander PHEV or not? Also, how was your experience test driving Tesla 3/Y and why did you not go with them over Outlander?

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