Looking at current prices of used tesla's and brand new tesla's quiet a huge drop in price from new to old.
I know by owning an EV you save on fuel….but buying them brand new and losing $20,000-$25,000 after 3 years of ownership makes little sense or does it? So my question is.
What do you exactly save?
Are you just making one of the greatest scammers Elon rich or you are actually saving money?
Oh, it’s very on topic. In fact, it couldn’t be any more on topic.
Talking about Tesla vehicles, in a Tesla thread and you once again making references to “Tesla fires”… in a Tesla thread about Tesla vehicles.
So, for everyone playing at home, please, jv, cite your source on how many “Tesla fires”there has been in “Australia” from the past 220+ years.
Or, better still, to make it more “on topic”, can you point to an article anywhere that states that Tesla has improved the “fire detectors” in their vehicles??
can you point to an article anywhere that states that Tesla has improved the “fire detectors” in their vehicles??
My neighbour told me. They bought one recently.
@jv: That evidence is anecdotal and not from a reliable source…
Again, please point to a “reputable source” that Tesla “improved” their “fire detectors”… maybe you have the press release from Tesla? An Elon tweet, perhaps? Maybe a YouTube blog video from an EV review site?
@jv: Then it's basically hearsay. I cant verify your neighbour nor can I verify their source and it was passed down from them to your neighbour without any vetting of this information before it was passed onto you… Or what most like to call "unsubstantiated bullshit".
So, I'll ask again, please cite a reputable source that Tesla improved their fire detectors in their vehicles that I can cross reference and verify. Or, I would even accept findings on the decrease in fires and fire related deaths in Tesla vehicles in Australia over time. If you can show me that there has been a marked decrease in these fires and deaths with the introduction of these "improved fire detectors", I will also accept that as evidence.
@pegaxs: “Tesla fires”
After careful consideration and investigation, Willowbank Raceway has decided that we can no longer allow road-registered Fully Electric Vehicles to race or test at Willowbank Raceway
https://www.thedrive.com/news/dragstrip-bans-evs-citing-fire…
@Loot N Plunder: Ok, and to that I ask… How many "Tesla fires" has there been at "Willowbank Raceway" in the past 220+ years? Got a link to the numbers? Any news articles about these "Tesla fires" at Willowbank?
Hell, I will accept how many Tesla fires there have been, Australia wide, at ANY race track in Australia. Just cite me that source and maybe an article or two…
Here is my example of a bunch of ICE cars on fire at a "raceway"… Sparked by a hot ICE vehicle. that torched around 20 other vehicles that the firefighters couldn't put out.. Maybe Willowbank needs to look at banning ICE vehicles as well?
Here is a link to an ICE race car "exploding" on the strip and putting a guy in hospital. Maybe Willowbank needs to look at banning ICE vehicles as well?
Here is another ICE race car catching fire at Phillip Island raceway… Maybe Willowbank needs to look at banning ICE vehicles as well?
The list of links I can provide for "fires" resulting from ICE cars at any racecourse in Australia just keeps going… but weirdly enough though, I cant find any "Tesla fires" at any race tracks in Australia. You seem to be on top of it, post me a link, I would love it for my archive…
@pegaxs: I used to spend a lot of time at Willowbank Raceway - they would see some kind of car fire at every second meet. Usually just some leaking oil or petrol that was quickly extinguished - the team was very prepared for these situations. I have seen 2 bad crashes on their drag strip which included fires that substantially damaged the cars involved.
I suspect Willowbank simply isn't prepared to upgrade their safety equipment and training to accommodate EVs, and found it easier to simply ban them. Or perhaps their insurance company wanted to jack up their premiums based on their own assessment of risk.
Either way, there are plenty of other drag strips in Australia that have no issues with EVs. Sooner or later, Willowbank will have to upgrade their gear because EV racing isn't going away.
@klaw81: Failure to adapt coupled with ignorance and misinformation. It just sounds like a bunch of old anti-EV boomers trying to protect "loud noise go vroom!" rather than looking at the safety aspect of it.
This ban has more to do with their lack of knowledge on EV's than it does on promoting safety. EV's at race tracks would probably be safer than ICE vehicles based on when they crash, there isnt flammable liquid sprayed about and you dont need to keep spare fuel in drums in the pits and that EV fires take much longer to get to a critical point that most times it allows more time to escape a vehicle…
I do agree with them on one point is that battery fires can be particularly nasty and not easy to fight… but so can a fuel fire when 2 or 3 cars are on fire and there is liquid fuel spreading around the pit or concourse areas…
This is just Willowbank pandering to the "race car need make loud noise" knuckle dragging bogans and their inability to embrace change, it's more of an "appeal to tradition" than it is a "safety measure."
@pegaxs: I am just the messenger
I think it has more to do with not being able to put a battery fire out and not batteries being more dangerous
I am just the messenger
Then your message was flawed. It's off topic and irrelevant. You cant use a "sound bite" from a single racetrack in Qld. banning EV's as a basis for proving "Tesla fires" exist when they have had none. This isnt "proof" of anything and it's just their "opinion". Again, it sounds more like the Chicken Little screaming "the sky is falling!!" than it does based on "facts". It sounds like it has more to do with "protecting tradition" dressed up as "safety concerns".
So, because you are the "messenger", back up your source… How many fires have there been at Willowbank that were a direct result of racing a Tesla?
I think it has more to do with not being able to put a battery fire out and not batteries being more dangerous
Something I mentioned in my reply above. But again, thousands of litres of highly flammable liquid fuel in cars and containers vs no liquid fuel and battery fully contained within the vehicle. I think "safety concerns" is a piss poor excuse when you really consider it. They would have no more ability to put out 2 or 3 cars on fire with a few 44 gallon drums of fuel close by…
What EV's dont do…. is this So, again, I will ask… Why is Willowbank not banning ICE vehicles? This seem FAR more dangerous than an EV fire (You can literally see a 10kg~ish cylinder head on the left of the photo that has come flying off…) You know what does "explode"? Nitro fuel.
@pegaxs: I don't think you understand about me only being the messenger
And you clearly didn't read the article that mentions other race tracks also banning electric cars and it also mentioned that there are racetracks that haven't banned electric cars
If you have a problem with that racetrack take it up with them not some random passing on a news article
Also i cant see why couldn't you just get around it by installing a small generator in the boot wouldn't that be called a hybrid?
@Loot N Plunder: You are not "the messenger", you are an "interjector", these are different. You tried to justify what jv was saying by interjecting some non-sense unrelated article about some random raceway in Qld banning EV's for an unrelated reason to what we are talking about.
You went for a "got-cha/well akshully" and it didn't work. Your link is as helpful a link to what we are talking about as what jv's link was, that stated; 1 in every 6.3 Tesla Model S cars have caught on fire and that the US road toll each year is "209" deaths.
They are not banning these EV's based on "actual incidents, facts or studies", just on "what-ifism" and "appeal to tradition". It's a ban on EV's because they are EV's, not because of the risk. If it was a ban on "risk", there are WAY more risks involved in ICE drag racing… (namely 1000's of litres of fuel required to run these events.)
And you clearly didn't read the article that mentions other race tracks also banning electric cars
I did, and it mentioned two other tracks… OVERSEAS… ON OPPOSITE SIDES OF THE PLANET. USA and Wales. Irrelevant to "Australia" and "fire detectors" fitted to Teslas. The article doesn't even clarify ANY events that involved a "street legal EV" and "catching fire while racing" at either of these tracks. I am almost certain that this has more to do with a guy in a stock $80k Tesla smoking Gary "Gazza" Smith in his $200,000 souped up shitbox '79 Torana while not making a sound.
If you have a problem with that racetrack take it up with them
I dont have a problem with them. My "opinion" of them is that the raceway committee are a bunch of ill-informed (fropanity) (fropanity) anti-ev (fropanity) heads. I dont race there, so I DGAF what they do with their "raceway" (there are other options EV owners can use). I just think that their logic for doing what they did, was flawed.
And the irony here is they allow "hybrids"… which have both a LiIon battery AND liquid fuels, so they cant be that worried about "battery fires"… Not with all that nitromethane stored in the cars and pit area and ICE vehicles spitting flames out the exhausts.
@pegaxs: Ok hows this
"Unfortunately recovery operations for EVs take a long time due to risk of fire to the batteries,"
https://www.9news.com.au/national/chaos-as-tesla-mounts-anot…
Ohh No the hysteria over battery fires something that doesn't happen. Maybe you should inform everyone about this myth/misinformation starting with the news outlets
Cant wait to see you in the news
@Loot N Plunder: Ok… Let's work on this one…
Was the Tesla on fire?
Did it even catch fire?
Was there fire involved at all?
Was the fire determined to be at the fault of the Tesla or any part of the Tesla's battery system?
Did this fire, if caused by the Tesla, spread to any surrounding vehicles?
How did they determine that the Tesla battery was the risk here but not the 40~60 litres of "liquid" fuel the Holden may have had?
If the roles were reversed and the Holden had mounted the Tesla and was leaking fuel and oil, would it have been treated in the same "increased safety risk" fashion, or would safety crews just have said "lol! it's just oil and petrol, stooooooge!"
How about this fire. You think the fire crews went in and said "(fropanity) it, dont stress, it's just diesel"?
Or how about this fire. Not dangerous?
This one isnt dangerous either…
Yep, these ICE vehicle crashes dont need any extra precautions. Petrol/diesel is WAY safer.
Ohh No the hysteria over battery fires something that doesn't happen.
And then you literally post a link to a car crash where there was NO fire and you have yet to link to a single car fire in Australia that was the direct result of a Tesla vehicle battery catching fire…
Want me to keep posting links to petrol and diesel vehicle fires?
Maybe you should inform everyone about this myth/misinformation starting with the news outlets
You do realise how modern media works, yeah? They pump "stories" out that are clickbait and play on human stupidity and biases. They print what "sells" not what is "correct". They print whatever it takes to get eyeballs on pages full of advertising. They want your eyeballs and your outrage. Outrage and disinformation sells because of weak minded gullible idiots who buy into it. It isnt "news" any more, it's opinion pieces dressed up as "information". It's whatever the Rupert Murdochs of the world want it to be.
Stop getting your bullshit information from Rupert and start looking at more neutral sources or direct sources. Stop buying into the media disinformation juggernauts who are manipulating you for advertising revenue, start reading university papers, independent reviews and peer reviewed papers. Stop getting your information from anti-EV shills like Cadogan and those (fropanity) wits from Drive, etc who are paid off by car manufactures to shit-can EV's. Hell, just apply logic… if it sounds like bullshit… chances are…
@pegaxs: tick
tick
tick
BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
hook line and sinker
LMFAO you took all the bait
Where is this information coming from that everyone says batteries are dangerous
Not me
I post news links And what do you know they are all sprouting Danger Danger Will Robinson
Like i said you are more than welcome to correct them all, start with the police then the media then to the masses you must go
Looking forward to your endeavor, don't forget to report back ill be waiting on your progress
Maybe you should inform everyone about this myth/misinformation starting with the news outlets
Everyone already knows that the conservative media has been making clickbait articles about EVs for years now. The article you linked is a prime example of the kind of misinformation that's common:
The "police warning" was simply to warn people to navigate around the scene of a traffic incident, not because there was a fire. There is always a risk of fire when a vehicle is elevated in this way - it's not exclusive to BEVs.
The "chaos" the headline refers to is also associated with the road being closed by the traffic incident, and needing to safely separate and tow away the cars involved.
The end of the article suggests a tenuous link between BEV batteries and e-bike / e-scooter fires, which is highly misleading. The cause of fires in small consumer devices is poorly protected cells and cheap, under-rated charging circuits, neither of which are factors in BEVs.
So well done on falling for the clickbait and highlighting the exact problem. This stuff needs to be called out, because it's harmful and stupid, and it shows just have low our media standards have fallen.
@klaw81: The article you linked is a prime example of the kind of misinformation that's common:
And whose fault is that?
Why haven't they been called out?
I was just showing what is being fed to the people but its my fault so i am to blame
First thing in the morning i will be down to Willowbank Raceway to sort this sh!t out whose with me
@Loot N Plunder: Yeah, see, now you’re just acting childish. This is usually the sign that someone is in over their head and resorts to saying childlike garbage and trying to back out with “I was just trolling… you ate the bait… lol” because you actually have no defence for your stance.
Instead of mouthing off and doubling down on your ignorance, sometimes it pays to listen when adults are talking.
Sticking with a “belief” based on some inane inability to accept new information, no matter how obviously right the new information is, is usually the sign of someone with a fairly low intellect, think “cookers” for example.
And whose fault is that?
Yours for not fact checking and just gobbling up Murdochs lies like chocolate cake.
Why haven't they been called out?
They have, numerous times in this thread alone. But I am just one person against a huge multi billion dollar media empire.
I was just showing what is being fed to the people
No, what you are doing is “backpedaling” to try and save face. You posted it as a “gotcha!” that has backfired on you spectacularly and now you’re trying to PR spin your way out of it by claiming you were showing us an “example” of bad media… yeah, nah.
but its my fault so i am to blame
Absolutely, because you didn’t fact check it. You just accepted it because it backs up the confirmation bias you were seeking. You “are” a part of the problem, not part of the solution.
@pegaxs: Your so triggered that you have to resort to this garbage response
I don't see you making waves in the media or anywhere to correct any of them
So have you been in contact with Willowbank Raceway ? I doubt it.
Excuses excuses. How about you back your belief with actions against this misinformation or Is it all to hard for you.
tick
tick
tick
https://people.com/4-killed-after-tesla-crash-sparks-fire-in…
@Loot N Plunder: Of course you can find a tesla fiery crash. Heres a petrol fiery crash:
https://www.9news.com.au/national/two-people-dead-in-car-cra…
How many fiery crashes involving petrol cars compared to EVs?
@Euphemistic: This all started because of
"After careful consideration and investigation, Willowbank Raceway has decided that we can no longer allow road-registered Fully Electric Vehicles to race or test at Willowbank Raceway".
And nothing was mentioned about petrol
why?
because
I think it has more to do with not being able to put a battery fire out and not batteries being more dangerous than petrol
some people just cant understand what i said and spruke crap about rupert being my hero
I don't think i have ever mentioned rupert or provided one link to his empire.
fanboi trigger warning much?
Opinions are like armpits we all got them and they all stink
understand?
Its not me you have to convince its the media
But don't let that sway you as its my fault and i take full responsibility
And the stupidity of hybrid being acceptable but full electric is a total ban
Its not me you have to convince its the media
Be that as it may, you have added clicks to their stories. Unfortunately the media only listen to clicks, not people and giving them more clicks on EV fire stuff isnt helping the situation. They dont know our reasons for clicking. The cant tell if we agree or disagree with the story, just that we clicked. More biased stories get more clicks, especially anti EV stuff.
Its too easy to find media stories with hype when we should be linking more data driven sources.
@Euphemistic: Its too easy to find media stories with hype when we should be linking more data driven sources.
No
You need to get off your backside and correct them otherwise they will continue on their happy way.
If you don't stand up for what you believe then you are a hypocrite and happy for the outcome we have now
Why haven't you all done something productive instead of keeping your mouth shut over something you find so wrong
I bet not one person here has made an effort to combat Willowbank Raceway's view
You get what you deserve if you cant be bothered and as someone who knows that its the squeaky wheel that gets the oil you all have failed
You need to get off your backside and correct them otherwise they will continue on their happy way.
And how would you suggest we go about this? I already call it out on forums and social media groups when I see it.
I bet not one person here has made an effort to combat Willowbank Raceway's view
Why would we? Have you contacted them? Ill bet its an insurer that prompted it and its an interim measure until they work out the best practice for safety.
(Check formatting help on how to quote)
@Loot N Plunder: Again with the garbage links…
The incident occurred at around 12:10 a.m. local time when an electric vehicle carrying “five occupants” was “going at a high rate of speed,"
From the Police press release;
the Tesla lost control and struck the guard rail and then a concrete pillar
So, it had nothing to do with a fault with the Tesla just randomly catching fire, just the fact it was driven at a high rate of speed, crashed into a guard rail and into a concrete pillar. This is the photo of the car… The car is smashed almost beyond recognition yet they still managed to pull one person out alive? This isnt an EV related fire, no car would have survived being wrapped around a concrete pillar.
And noted that you failed to post this fire. Note how the narrative changes about the fire when it was caused by petrol/diesel that they dont feel the need to mention it or even make it part of the headlines?
4 Killed After a Tesla Crash Sparks Fire in Toronto: "Horrific scene" (Emphasising "Tesla" and "fire" in their click bait headline and that it was "horrific")
vs "ICE" vehicle crashes that involve people dying in resulting fires… (all from the same "source")
4 Killed, 17 Injured After Semi-Truck Crashes into Vehicles Stuck in Michigan Traffic (No mention of makes of vehicles nor their fuel type or that there even was a fire, something that is obvious from the photos. Also note the lack of "emotive descriptions" like "horrific". 4 innocent people dead, 17 injured, cars and trucks burned to the ground… not "horrific" or even "tragic".)
or
Man Killed in Car Fire as He Tries to Dislodge It from Snowbank in N.J. (No mention of the brand that caught fire. No mention of it being an "ICE" vehicle. No "emotive descriptors".)
or, again
3 Killed, 2 Injured In Fiery Crash Involving 'Several' Indiana State University Football Players (No mention of make of vehicle, fuel used to power vehicle or what "spearked" the fire. Not listed with any "emotive descriptors".)
Or, one more…
Explosive Crash That Killed Couple on Niagara Falls Bridge 'Had No Link to Terrorism,' Officials Say (Again, no mention of make of vehicle or fuel or what "spearked" the fire. Killed two people but again, no use of "emotive descriptors".)
Just jokes, got another one…
Wife Pulls Husband from Burning Car After Crash That Killed 1: ‘He Thought He Was Dead’ (And again, no mention of the vehicle makes or models or what "sparked" the fire. At least they kind of almost mentioned "fire", and no "emotive descriptor".)
You wanted more? Ok, fam, hold my beer…
Ga. High School Principal, His Pregnant Wife and 3-Year-Old Son Killed in Car Crash: 'Heartbroken' (No make or model of vehicle mentioned. "Fire" is not mentioned until almost the very bottom of the story. But does have a "soft" emotive descriptor. Family of 3 crushed between 2 trucks and burnt to death is only merely "heartbreaking" not "horrific".)
What's that? There cant be any more? Well…
2 People Killed After Car Plunges Off Pacific Coast Highway and Bursts Into Flames (No mention of the make or model in the headlines or that this make or model "sparked" a "fire". No "emotive descriptors".)
Do I need to keep going?
If you don't stand up for what you believe then you are a hypocrite and happy for the outcome we have now
I dont know if you are drunk or just trolling… Asked and answered already. I am standing up to the media and calling out bullshit when I see it. But I am 1 person on 1 forum. It's overwhelming trying to debunk 2 people's bullshit on here compared to trying to take down a "billion dollar media empire's" worth of bullshit…
Why haven't you all done something productive instead of keeping your mouth shut over something you find so wrong
We literally aren't keeping our mouths shut. We are here, on this forum telling people who spew this misinformation bullshit out as the bullshit that it is. There may be peiople on here who dont know any better and would read your bullshit and think nothing mroe of it, so I am being productive by countering your bullshit with "facts" so these people who are "undecided" can make their own conclusions based on your "bullshit" or my "facts".
Anyway, their clickbait worked… they suckered you right in with your confirmation bias seeking. You saw "Tesla" and "sparked fire" and "horrific" and immediately clicked on it.
The only one getting "baited and trolled" here, is you… by the media, to fill their "ad revenue" targets. Well done for adding to the problem and not even trying to be part of the solution…
I am always left amazed at the human psyche that some people would rather be wrong and thought of as a fool then to admit they learned something and changed their views.
The V2X standard has just been announced on the weekend, to be ready before end of the year. If you can afford to wait, I will suggest waiting before committing on any EV purchase.
I personally own a Tesla and going ALL IN on the brand, and have looked into how the V2G setup works with Powershare. The software is just the best out of all other automotive manufacturers, and Tesla is so far ahead that I do not know how any other manufacturers can catch up.
If you do not care about software / tech, I suggest BYD as the battery management system is just as good as Tesla.
I thought Tesla hardware doesn’t yet support any sort of v2X
I believe the hardware is all there, but the software does not allow it.
Tesla is just another car. If you like Tesla, go and buy one. You won’t feel the real pleasure without driving a car you like to buy and drive.
Petrol, diesel, EV or hydrogen are all just fuel types to run your car. You are the one who is going to spend your hard earned money and choice should be only yours.
Quality wise Tesla is no better than any other EV available in market.
My advice: don't buy a new one. Buy a used one at around the 12 month old mark. Let the previous owner take the depreciation hit, and save yourself some cash - this will help with overall savings. You will still get the benefit of most of the original warranty.
Regardless, the major positives with owning an EV (not specifically Tesla) are very low energy and maintenance costs, and the ability to charge at home rather than visiting a servo (a hugely under-rated advantage IMO). Performance and responsiveness is usually quite a bit better than your average car. Plus a quieter and smoother ride in general.
For Tesla cars specifically, the app is very good - the ability to remotely lock, remotely control climate and heating, not needing to have a key at all are all really good. The built-in navigation and infotainment more broadly is best in class. The sound system is quite decent, even in the base model. Sentry mode is pretty handy too.
buying new is a waste of money due to initial depreciation. buy a slightly used one after initial depreciation
You can outdrag any petrol car off the lights….thats about it :P
That's not true unless you have a plaid.
The base model rwd has enough to smoke most everyday performance cars. An AWD turbo might give you a run for its money.
But the long range AWD is quicker and will smoke everything up to supercars
The performance models will be the supercar competitor
owning an EV you save on fuel….
Be careful thinking fuel savings is the reason to go EV. I think it depends on usage. I did the math and found my Honda Jazz uses roughly $3k fuel per year. Over 10 years that's $30k.
Make the following assumptions;
10 years lifecycle of both cars
Free charging via solar
No maintenance on ice
Im spending approx $30k extra to get a new Tesla.
Show me the flaw in my logic.
Show me the flaw in my logic
The obvious flaw is that they're not equivalent cars and equivalent situations. To do a proper comparison, you need to compare the purchase of two new cars; a new Jazz or similar, and a comparable EV - say an MG4.
Oh wow I left that out sorry. In my case its about $7-9k for a used Jazz so im paying approx $20k extra for the Tesla.
Again, not even vaguely comparable and an obviously dumb comparison.
It's cheaper to walk than buy a new Tesla.
You still get to the same destination. Just a little sooner with the Tesla.
Agreed 👍
It's cheaper to walk than buy a new Tesla.
Not if you can't walk.
Agree with you that it will cost more to own a Tesla than a Jazz.
It will also cost more to own a bigger Civic than the smaller Jazz.
There is another flaw- No maintenance on ice. Even a Honda won't make it to 10 years without an oil change or 2.
I concluded that the ice maintenance was offset by the free charging just to make the math simple.
A bit too simple.
Oversimplification makes comparison meaningless.
@figarow: Because you just hand-waved away meaningful numbers. What's the point of doing the comparison if you're just going to ignore details that are relevant but inconvenient to calculate?
If you're only willing to buy a used car at $10k max then an EV of any kind is pretty much out of the question in any case.
If you're only willing to buy a used car at $10k max then an EV of any kind is pretty much out of the question in any case.
My point exactly. Not everyone is as frugal as me i get that.
When Teslas can be had for $35k ill be interested.
@figarow: There are 15 Tesla Model 3's available for sale on Carsales for $35k or less. A couple of them have under 50,000km on the clock.
@klaw81: Thanks for bringing up this important point. You are right but the reason i would avoid a used EV is the battery degradation. Not knowing how the battery was treated and only going on battery stats is too much risk vs reward for me. IC engine wear on the other hand is much easier to predict and even if you get it wrong its $2k vs $10k to replace batteries.
the reason i would avoid a used EV is the battery degradation. Not knowing how the battery was treated and only going on battery stats is too much risk vs reward for me
This is another common mis-perception that needs to die.
The risk is far lower than you think - battery degradation is typically extremely slow, and all EVs have a long battery warranty (typically 8-10 years). This is quickly becoming apparent as EVs age - there are quite a number of 2017 & 2018 Model 3's that are now well beyond 250,000km and still have minimal degradation, retaining 85% of their factory range. Similarly, there are plenty of examples of 2015 Tesla Model S vehicles that have reached 450,000km on the original battery, including vehicles that have been fast-charged their entire life.
A recent UK study found that 97% of all EVs ever delivered still have their original battery - and even that number is badly skewed by the early failure of the Nissan Leaf (which had a well-known design flaw).
Moreover, battery degradation is typically very slow and predictable. The kind of sudden, total battery failure that would require an immediate replacement is incredibly rare. Instead, a slow reduction in total range may make the car gradually less suitable for long trips, but unlikely to have any effect on the average commuter who would simply need to charge every 6th day, instead of every 7th.
@klaw81: Good points, if my battery superstitions are invalid im definitely up for investigating the used EV market at some point in the future when prices drop more.
@figarow: $2k if you get engine wear wrong on an IC engine? That seems like you've just pulled out a number to fix up an old datsun or something… I've been worried about my recently sold BT50 that it would have an engine issue as the talk is having to spend upwards of $10k to swap out engines…
That seems like you've just pulled out a number to fix up an old datsun or something
Absolutely. Major mechanical issues for a modern vehicle start at $2k and a cost of over $10k for major engine or transmission work. I've owned a number of 4-8 year old cars, all with less than 120,000km, all were all diligently serviced by the dealer according to the logbook, and each one of them still had had minor mechanical problems requiring annoyingly expensive repairs. Just replacing the (plastic!) thermostat in my 6 year old Mondeo cost $1800 in parts and labour because it's in such a dumb spot.
The idea that every EV has a time-bomb battery that's a huge and unknowable risk, while ICE drivetrains are all bullet-proof and last for 20 trouble-free years, is an absolute joke.
@figarow: News flash: you can also buy a used EV battery for less than a new one.
Also, a refurb engine for anything bigger than a Barina is going to cost way more than $2k. A colleague's Hilux motor (with no ancillaries) cost him $6k including freight.
@figarow: Imagine you're trying to sell a car and figarow coming around to tyre-kick….
"When Teslas can be had for $35k ill be interested."
"There are 15 Tesla Model 3's available for sale on Carsales for $35k or less. A couple of them have under 50,000km on the clock."
"Not knowing how the battery was treated and only going on battery stats is too much risk vs reward for me"
next thing..
"oh I don't like dark coloured cars after seeing the photos that the car is black"
lol
I don't own an EV as I'm not interested at this stage by you're correct, battery degradation isn't a large issue. It's not like an ICE car that has done 200km over 15 years will have perfect engine health. If anything an EV lifespan will be more predicable and less likely to go bang as it gets older.
Imagine you're trying to sell a car and figarow coming around to tyre-kick….
Nah figarow already did the napkin math and won't be bothering anyone soon 😂
Another thing to consider is the depreciation on Teslas (or EVs in general) caused by newer models with upgraded electronic/hardware.. Eg HW3 might not support FSD (Tesla might upgrade for free if you have already bought FSD but what about others who have a recent purchase without FSD)… In the past, non-EV refreshes have normally been aesthetic in nature with a bigger touch screen here or minor engine updates there that dont substantially change the experience or mileage…
EVs especially Tesla's are evolving so rapidly that just 1 update with battery or hardware (needed to run the latest features eg FSD) might make the car obsolete with no buyers (resulting in massive depreciation) as the car/tech might be obsolete.. Look at new phones.. how many folks are buying 3 - 5 year old mobiles? With Juniper on the horizon and HW4 being rolled out, dont understand why anyone will knowingly buy HW3 knowing that it might not support full FSD (https://electrek.co/2024/10/23/elon-musk-finally-admits-tesl…). I am not sure will there be a market for 5 your old EVs as compared to traditional cars…
For me a new Aldi brand 4k TV will always be better than a Sony/Samsung 1080p TV from 2019 (no matter what price premium was paid when originally bought)… same with EVs.. once hardware/computer in them is old, they are not attractive anymore no mater how good the battery is…
Any Australian who buys on the basis of FSD capability must be completely out of their mind at this point.
+1
you wont get level 5 FSD with just a camera
Aren't they only at level 2 now?
Then whats the point of getting a Tesla if the main tech it promises wont be accessible with the current hardware…
@MaxPower1982: Its elons dream and the masses will follow his dream without questioning it
The camera is good for lane assist, reading speed signs(most of the time), blind spot detection, vandalism, maybe a little more as it has to many problems in certain conditions and it also has nothing to back it up in those conditions.
The new merc (lvl 3 fsd) has lidar, radar, camera, ultrasonic, road moisture sensors
At a price though "subscription service starting at $2500 per year".
https://editorial.pxcrush.net/carsales/general/editorial/mer…
Then whats the point of getting a Tesla
The Model 3 and Model Y are still widely considered to be the benchmark by which all EVs in their class are judged, and that's without considering FSD at all. There are alternative vehicles available, but very few that offer the same level of equipment, performance and tech for a similar price.
Even if FSD were legal here in Australia, it would be an optional extra feature at a very high price that I suspect few would consider paying.
I would say the tech novelty wears out. You will start enjoying the car, driving experience etc long term. Any updates you get is a positive. So comparing it to a phone, not really.
I have rented it for few days and though fun to drive.. the novelty wears off in couple of days (as with all things in life once you have them). Plus if there is no EAP or FSD then its more or less like any other car minus the luxurious elements like leather seats, premium interior look and feel etc..
For me a new Aldi brand 4k TV will always be better than a Sony/Samsung 1080p TV from 2019
Sony had 4K tvs in 2019
I am not sure will there be a market for 5 your old EVs as compared to traditional cars.
This is just silly, and already demonstratively false. There are already plenty of people buying 5 year old EVs.
The value of a car is in it's utility. If it's just as capable of carrying the family to school, the shops and the workplace on a daily basis, and the cost of fuel and maintenance is low, there is no problem. EVs are perfect for taxi and rides hare services too.
The fact that there are plenty of EVs with 250,000km on the clock and they're still working just fine on the original battery with minimal degradation clearly shows they're not a risky bet, nor as disposable as you're suggesting.
Maybe the best with Ev's are buying a 2-3 year old one and that way you lose not much and actually save on fuel costs.
If you can take advantage of the novated lease deals with a second hand one. Then that's probably the best way to go overall.
Fuel, maintenance definitely cheaper.
FBT "savings" for EV special treatment on a novated lease which can offset some of that depreciation hit. May be possible to swing this on a 2nd hand 2022+ car though.
The longer you plan to hold it the more value you will get out of a new car. Just holding for 3 years then selling and eating the depreciation is silly.
Very old (8 yr+) Tesla's that have gone through most of their depreciation can be picked up cheaply. Like all old used luxury cars the market is pretty efficient, what you don't pay upfront you will pay in repairs. Pick your poison - depreciation or repair costs. Somewhere in between might be an optimal solution or dare I say "bargain" (e.g. a well looked after 2 yr old car).
I believe the date for secondhand cars is post 1 July 2022 EVs in order to get the FBT exemption.
I believe a 8yo EV will have less mechanical drive-train problems than a 8yo ICE car, even more so when compared to European luxury cars.
OP, if you can get novated lease, create a calculation for a Tesla Model Y and a Honda CRV, my old car. My calc showed me good savings compared to CRV. It could be the same if you compare to a camry.
Tesla's super charger network is the major benefit compared to other EVs. Regarding depreciation not an issue if you keep the car for long term.
I drove my first EV (BYD Seal) for 3 hours. I was really impressed with its quietness and speed. I used to be critical of EVs, but I would definitely consider buying one now
This is the kind of feedback I've heard from so many people since I bought mine. Lots of people have been somewhere between skeptical and outright hostile, but then they take it for a drive and struggle to find fault with it.
Tesla's have a few unique features that may make them more or less appealing depending on the type of person, but a BYD Seal is very similar to a "normal" sedan and makes the transition very close to seamless.
I test drove a Seal, the drive was ok, but the lack of buttons for the most basic functions would drive me up the wall.
I have a Seal - so curious as to which buttons you miss? Pretty much every button that's "missing" is either one or two screen presses or better yet just use the voice control.
@Cliche Guevara: yeah thats precisely the problem.
2-3 touches vs 1 touch, where you don't need to avert your gaze from driving.
As for voice here is a scenario.
Turning temp on AC down to coldest
Touch based control
Voice control
1. Press button on steering wheel or say 'Hey BYD'
2. Wait for car to listen
3. Say 'Lower temperature to coldest setting'
4. (Assuming it understood you), 'Changing temperature to coldest setting'
5. Temperature now set to coldest setting.
total time- between you saying 'Hey BYD' and changing said temperature ~7-12 seconds
Now do this hundreds if not thousands of times over the course of your ownership……
And don't get me started if you have a strong accent.
Turning temp on AC down to coldest
I don't want to detract from the main thrust of your argument, which I agree is somewhat valid and one of the few gripes I have with the Tesla control scheme - but why would you ever want to change the temperature of the AC down to the coldest setting?
You know that doesn't actually make it colder faster, right?
@klaw81: I have 2 cars with climate control.
1 with temp knob, the other that is controlled via the screen.
In the 15 years that I've owned cars with a temp knob climate control. I reckon I've adjusted the temp once or twice.
21 degrees all year round for me.
You know what shits me? people who have cars with climate control who use it like an old fashion window air cond- either off or full blast air cond.
21 degrees all year round for me.
Exactly - you set the temperature you want, and the car automatically does its thing to make it that temperature. I have mine on 21.5 for most of the year, and only during the coldest 3 months does it change to 23.
It's even better with a car that has driver profiles, because the car resets to your personal temperature, seat position even if somebody else changed it since you last drove.
The irony of complaining about "needing extra steps" when you're unnecessarily doing pointless tasks is pretty funny.
@klaw81: It makes you cooler faster when you are hot and sweaty. Then once body chilled you go back to comfortable low 20's.
It makes you cooler faster when you are hot and sweaty.
No, it does not.
Air conditioning simply does not work that way. The cooling system can only be on of off. It cannot not "add extra cooling" if you give it a lower target temperature. Any perceived improvement is 100% placebo effect.
The only thing setting a lower temperature might do is increase the fan speed to maximum, but if the interior of the car is 45 degrees, the fan will run on the maximum setting regardless of whether the climate control is set to 18 degrees or 22.
@joelmuzz: Noone sets the temp to 25 to cool down. Setting it to 21-23 is for cooling.
It might cool you quicker if you wait for the climate control to ramp down the fan speed as its reached the temp. Most people would turn it back to 21 before it gets to 15 because its starting to feel cold as theyve cooled down.
What ive found with auto climate control is that it rarely points the air where i prefer. Temp is fine, but i typically want feet and face cooled initially when most seem to blast it oht at face only.
@SupeNintendoChalmers: this annoyed me a lot initially too and i didn't use the voice control so it was a lot of effort to make the correct gestures on the screen.
turns out this specific action at least is a 3 finger vertical swipe and horizontal for fan speed
Absolutely. Time and again, the foolproof way of changing most people's hatred towards EV is simply to connect their bum to an EV's driver seat.
Not having to go petrol station to fuel up is a big plus for me. Saves me loads of time.
Preheating and cooling is great for the newborns. and can keep running in a garage without killing anyone.
Don't buy a tesla… Wait for a vehicle with V2g capability
When can we expect v2g to be main stream?
Australian standards were announced on Saturday. Chris Bowen said should be available early next year
That is a game changer
What do you exactly save?
Money.
But that has always been the case.
Second hand vehicles have a reduced price after depreciation.
However, a "cheaper car" might be all you want/need.
Regarding the battery FUD, remember that a dead cheap, ~100Km range EV might be all you "need". If cheap enough, of course.
Renault Zoe
It would be different for each person but for me personally, the main benefit is not having to pay to fill up. I have solar + battery and work from home 3 days a week. During those 3 days I fill up for free on my OVO plan from 11am - 2pm with my standard 7kw Tesla charger I got with my previous model 3. Any other days I can just top up using solar for free. Apart from that, the acceleration is great even on the base model RWD, it's smooth, looks great imo and there are no service fees to worry about apart from having to change tyres.
If you drive a white one, you'll blend in with the other NPCs.
But in all seriousness, drive what you want to drive.
It's a terrible EV. I honestly don't see why you'd buy one currently as there's much better and cheaper options like BYD out there.
off-topic…