13 Demerit Points in 2025

LBigfellaborham on 21/04/2025 - 19:19
Last edited 23/04/2025 - 16:28

Thirteen demerit points in NSW is increasingly unfair in today’s context, where speed cameras are virtually on every corner. With such dense camera coverage, even minor, unintentional infractions—like being slightly over the limit for a few seconds—are heavily penalised. This creates a system that punishes frequency over severity and disproportionately impacts safe drivers who make occasional human errors. The system should reflect intent and danger, not revenue-raising through constant surveillance.

On top of that, the amount of police who just park with their radar gun at a spot where the speed limit randomly changes from 80 to 50 to catch people who don’t reduce speed on the spot, which seems more dangerous. Oh and let’s no forget those speed traps they setup in areas where the speed limit changes dramatically all of a sudden. Just saving lives, I guess.

EDIT: interesting feedback. The general consensus among our friends is that everyone is cruising around with about 10 demerit points from picking up the kids and driving to work. All professionals with families holding down good jobs. The OzBargain feedback seems to be tough bickies, you criminal.

EDIT 2: interesting cross section of society we have here on the OzBargain forum. Never met real life people that act so righteous. Curious to know if you’re just like this online or if in real life someone says ‘oh 13 demerit points doesn’t seem like much considering there’s speed cameras on every second block’ and then in real life you guys just launch into a big ol spiel about being the best driver in the world.

Poll Options

  • 137
    Unfair
  • 831
    Fair
Automotive

Comments

  • [Deactivated] on 21/04/2025 - 19:22
    +157

    Congratulations! it is very fair and let me guess you are a tradie?

      • coffeeinmyveins on 21/04/2025 - 21:13
        +154

        Who builds your house and wires up your house

        The same ass hats that build them poorly and end up destroying lives with their dodgy work so they can drive around in raptors.

          • picklewizard on 22/04/2025 - 10:06
            +52

            @Bigfellaborham: Have you thought about consulting a mental health professional about your anger issues?

            You and I both know I'm not the first person to suggest this to you.

            • Bigfellaborham on 23/04/2025 - 16:54
              -6

              @picklewizard: Ok Picklewizard

              • CalmLemons on 25/04/2025 - 10:42
                +7

                @Bigfellaborham: We have 12 drivers in one business and they barely racked up. 2-5. demerits each year. at worst.

                Our hiring was very strict without hotheads.

                The problem is OP, not the law or the system.

                Concentrate. Concentrate. Concentrate. Get off your phone.

                HR would agree.

        • afah0447 on 22/04/2025 - 09:23
          +13

          I knew Raptors would be mentioned somewhere on this topic!

          • garage sale on 22/04/2025 - 22:46

            @afah0447: As vehicles have gotten bigger , parking spots haven’t, so raptors might get a bad wrap as they stick out on the road when angle parked , or in shopping centres where it’s 90 degree parking. I know at my local shopping centre they have spaces marked for small vehicles , for obvious reason e.g protruding vehicles cause safety issue in the small spaces , and they have larger spaces where there is more room.

        • harrywwc on 23/04/2025 - 16:06
          +2

          and drive like pillocks on the freeway zipping across 3 lanes into the breakdown area and back again just to get that bit ahead.

        • tinnybastard on 23/04/2025 - 22:50
          +1

          As a tradie with a Raptor, I approve.

      • [Deactivated] on 22/04/2025 - 05:11
        +53

        Tradies deserve 5 less points anyway tbh. Roads would be much safer to drive on!

          • R4 on 24/04/2025 - 10:22
            +2

            @Binchicken22: Spot on about our immigration system - we have open borders to address 'skills shortages' thereby getting mass immigration, yet we still have major 'skills shortages'.

            The system is broken but I suspect that our governments have other agendas.

      • congo on 22/04/2025 - 09:04
        +36

        Most of the reckless drivers in my areas are tradies.
        They think they are invincible, and put unnecessary risks on other driver's lives.
        I hope there would be more speed cameras in my area particularly around school zones.

        • Creamsoda on 22/04/2025 - 12:01
          +4

          Saw one the other day locally that ran a red light on a busy intersection and nearly killed a man crossing the road with a green walking sign. I was standing behind him.

          • congo on 22/04/2025 - 17:42

            @Creamsoda: Tailgating, dangerous overtaking, speeding, running red lights, also there are many pedestrian who cross the street without looking as well.
            I have seen too many near collisions.

        • supersabroso on 22/04/2025 - 18:02
          +6

          They have the over powered vehicles, size and the fact that all vehicle related costs including accidents are discounted by 30-62% thanks to driving around a "business" vehicle. That's why they feel invincible. I just had a Ford Raptor enter a round-a-bout after me at full speed blaring his horns because he didn't know that you give way to people in the roundabout, not people on your right.

          • congo on 22/04/2025 - 20:37
            +3

            @supersabroso: Ahhh discounts and tax write off, I didn't realise that.
            That explains why they don't care.

      • eccaz on 04/06/2025 - 12:34

        If you wanna break the law, be prepared to face the consequences, same as any other action, don’t have a cry about it and seek out support on an Internet forum.

    • ForkSnorter on 22/04/2025 - 06:57
      +35

      Congratulations! it is very fair and let me guess you are a tradie?

      While your generalization may be partially true. I'd argue it's more the bogan way of driving that has spread around Australia:

      Instead of doing the speed limit or using cruise control, you just speed up until you're directly behind the car in front of you. If the car in front of you moves, you increase your speed until you reach the next car. And you just assume the car in front of you is doing the speed limit.

      I live in QLD, and it seems like about 70% of drivers drive like this.

      • Euphemistic on 22/04/2025 - 07:30
        +14

        Cant say im surprised, but im surprised at the number of drivers that dont seem to use cruise control on motorways.

        Saw plenty yesterday as i caught up to, passed, then the passed me and caught up to again. I was sitting on adaptive cruise. Moved to overtake slower cars only to have them pass me and slow down again shortly after while im sitting on 110 the whole time the road is clear in front of me.

        • Vavoom on 22/04/2025 - 08:03
          +7

          My pet peeve is people who don't use cruise control either. Like does your foot not get tired just holding it down? Well of course not, seeing as how you keep speeding up and slowing down in the overtaking lane ffs.

          • kiitos on 22/04/2025 - 11:24
            +3

            @Vavoom: I tend not to use it where the road has lots of hills and dips as it tends to surge too much

          • rumblytangara on 23/04/2025 - 12:25
            -3

            @Vavoom:

            Like does your foot not get tired just holding it down? Well of course not, seeing as how you keep speeding up and slowing down in the overtaking lane ffs.

            Of all the reasons for using cruise control, this surely isn't one of them.

            Your body is evolved to stand and walk on calf muscles for hours on end, having your foot rest on an accelerator pedal should be nothing for any healthy adult.

            Using cruise control in an urban setting or anywhere with hills has never struck me as a sensible option.

        • banana365 on 22/04/2025 - 12:56
          +4

          One of my vehicles (an old ute) doesn't have cruise control. I still manage to keep it within one or two kph of the speed I want to go at, so the lack of cruise control is a poor excuse. A fraction of a second's glance down at the speedo every so often is all that's required.

          • Euphemistic on 22/04/2025 - 14:12

            @banana365: Id guess the majority of vehicles produced in the last 15years have cruise control. There are older cars without, but id guess its a minority of current vehicles on the roads. modern cars are the frustrating ones.

      • Penguin30 on 23/04/2025 - 16:16
        +2

        I honestly think it's more the fact people feel fine driving in the right lane while not overtaking. Imagine if everyone got left and people who wanted to drive faster stayed in the right lane.

        Less people getting frustrated and who cares if someone wants to drive faster and risk fines it's up to them.

        To many people worried what others are doing these days.

        Driving in Europe is amazing people get out the way… Flashing high beam behind you just a friendly reminder to get out the way nobody cares. Stress free driving 👍

        • suzta on 24/04/2025 - 00:45
          -3

          Sounds like you're a hoon. The right lane isn't the magical speeding lane.

          • Penguin30 on 24/04/2025 - 11:04
            +2

            @suzta: If you define a hoon as somebody that enjoys driving the speed limit and not less then yes I guess you are right.

            Nobody said magical speeding lane.

            Although it certainly shouldn't be a drive under the speed limit lane like many people use it for unfortunately. Most people these days are to worried about speed and less focused on actual driving.

      • ForkSnorter on 22/04/2025 - 14:09
        +3

        I injected 200 doses of COVID vaccines into my nuts and didn't experience any side effects other than extreme agony.

        • Muppet Detector on 23/04/2025 - 15:33

          Did you take before and after pics? I would have expected some redness and swelling myself.

      • us3rnam3tak3n on 22/04/2025 - 15:59
        +26

        The audacity of calling someone a bootlicker while sporting that username.

        • jackspratt on 22/04/2025 - 19:20
          +7

          Not really - audacity implies self awareness.

      • Davo723 on 24/04/2025 - 09:41
        +2

        Username checks out

    • skillet on 22/04/2025 - 21:20
      +2

      In my home country smashes and crashes are common on the tollway mainly due to speeding(+30km/h is normal). Everytime a car flip or end up half cut on the side of the road, there will be a few body bag and ambulance. These graphic images is common on social media. There are cameras and police who nabs speeding drivers unfortunately no one governing the point system. Just pay the fine and tomorrow's a new day. People there are rich and stupid they never learn.

      I like the point and license suspension system in VIC. Without the system, any person can repeatedly commit traffic offences as long as there is money paid. This makes the road unsafe so it's unfair to other commuters.

      I have a question for the OP, when you are walking in Sydney CBD do you try to outwalk everyone?

      • juki on 24/04/2025 - 22:20

        where i'm from the cops can catch you speeding anywhere without you even seeing them or from miles away. Of course nobody likes this and it probably is revenue driven but i believe things did improve from 20 years ago where we could just give the cops a bottle of whisky and be on our way at 190 on a 250cc 2 stroke. Australia is fairly relaxed and people drive nicely, fair or not rules is rules, dont play the game if you dont like it

    • ol mate on 24/04/2025 - 07:09

      Facts. Only one of my uni mates who ever got suspended or took the behaviour bond worked for his family business as a builder

  • Aureus on 21/04/2025 - 19:30
    +138

    Tried not speeding?

      • Aureus on 21/04/2025 - 19:46
        +30

        It isn't super hard with practice.

        If you keep getting fined for going 5km/h over, then get a car with adaptive cruise control and it will pay itself off quickly.

        • Protractor on 21/04/2025 - 20:12
          -1

          and all of his speeding peers with kids in their cars.

        • juki on 24/04/2025 - 22:25
          +1

          maybe its age related, i do find it hard to drive with my eyes on the speedo, especially the 40km/h on roads with nothing going on, even my 50cc moped would go faster than that. oh "Adaptive" cruise control, yeah my ancient car doesnt have that, i was excited enough to experience plain cruise control :)
          i did grow up in a time of wild speedbikes, people pulling handbrakes to park and rallyes in fields as well as bribable cops

      • 87percent on 21/04/2025 - 20:20
        +5

        Isn’t there a 5-10% allowance before they time you? So Your real speed would be about 10km over then,

        • Bigfellaborham on 21/04/2025 - 20:20
          -7

          Not for the fixed ones. A friend is a cop and he said they give u 10% leeway.

          • Muppet Detector on 23/04/2025 - 15:34
            +1

            @Bigfellaborham: If your friend is a police officer, how come you keep getting fines? Can't he do something to get you off?

            • yes, I know that sounds dirty but that wasn't my intention.
          • brad1-8tsi on 26/04/2025 - 07:40

            @Bigfellaborham:

            Not for the fixed ones. A friend is a cop and he said they give u 10% leeway.

            They've started sending warning letters if you are over the speed limit on a fixed camera now. I can't remember the words but they go on your "file" and I assume can be used against you in the future if you try and contest a fine.

            These days I'd consider 5% to be the "leeway". Victoria is 2-3kph.

        • KangaDrew on 22/04/2025 - 10:50
          -1

          It's more around 6-8%

        • supersabroso on 22/04/2025 - 18:06

          Yes, it varies from car to car but the odometer is already off by 4% which means that if you're speeding by 4% then you're just following the speed limit. For a cop to pull you over, you have to be speeding by more than 10% relative to your odometer.

      • DashCam AKA Rolts on 21/04/2025 - 21:00
        +11

        Most speedos read up to 10% higher than your actual speed (under Australian Design Rules).

        Unless you've changed your wheel/tyre combo massively from the orginal, you have been putting the right foot down heavily, especially as the police allow a small lee way, and your speedo is over reading .

        "ADR 18/03 specifies a requirement that the speed indicated shall not be less than the true speed of the vehicle. The standard permits a difference between the indicated speed and true speed that can range from zero to 10 per cent of true speed plus 4km/h (e.g. for a true speed of 100km/h the indicated speed can range from 100km/h to 114km/h)"

        • Chandler on 22/04/2025 - 13:14
          +18

          Since I've found the comment I've made previously I'll put this here :)

          (also found one from @pegaxs which was a handy excuse to tag him :P)

          (Actual) <= (Speedo) <= ((Actual*1.1)+4)

          Speedo Actual Min Actual Max
          40 32.72 40
          60 50.91 60
          80 69.09 80
          100 87.27 100
          110 96.36 110

          Or to put that table the other way:

          Actual Speedo Min Speedo Max
          40 40 48
          50 50 59
          80 80 92
          100 100 114
          110 110 125

          To be "doing the speed limit" at 50 km/h (per speedo), your actual speed should be anywhere from 41 km/h to 50 km/h.
          So for you to be actually going 85, you're speedo would be reading anywhere from 85 km/h to 97.5 km/h.
          In my experience, it would be reading around 90 km/h.

          So when you get booked for "going 5 km/h over the limit", your instruments were likely telling you that you were going 10 over.

          "Accidentally" speeding is essentially impossible. Personally, if you try to use the excuse that "it was an accident" then you should be hit with a reckless driving charge, in addition to the speeding charge; since you should have been paying more attention to your instruments.

          TL;DR: quit whining, stop speeding.

          • aong152 on 22/04/2025 - 13:58
            +1

            @Chandler: I've noticed there are two groups of people who speed (relative to me, who uses cruise control at exactly the speed limit) more often. Hoons, and people with expensive cars. My theory is that
            1) for the hoons - their hoons, ofc they speed
            2) for the expensive cars, either their speedos are calibrated better (hence they are 5km/h faster but actually doing the limit)… or they are entitled rich *ches.

            • gromit on 22/04/2025 - 15:34

              @aong152: I must say I usually sit just on or 1 or 2 km over with cruise control on and I am amazed at how many cars I cruise past. It has made me check my speedo multiple times with the kilometre markers on the highway. seems my speedo registers just under +2km/h variance to actual speed. by that same amazement I am always shocked at the number of drivers that are flying past at least 15-20k's above my speed on the highway, always wonder how they manage to keep their license as the police love to sit on the medium strip between bushes or on the side ramps on the hume.

          • syousef on 23/04/2025 - 12:19

            @Chandler: I haven't had a speeding fine in 25 years and I agree that people shouldn't intentionally speed. Your argument is fine for people who contstantly and intentionally speed.

            But if you think you've never even momentarily drifted over the limit, it's your license that should be revoked. For a start speed limits aren't always clearly marked and your GPS isn't always correct about the speed limit even when it has that data. Next there are variable speed zones, and the reality is even most "good" drivers I've seen drift over when changing speed zones, and go over by a little when going down hill.

            If people did start being more cautious about their speed, the rules would be enforced more harshly to maintain the revenue. And there are times when paying too much attention to your speedo is actually dangerous.

            • Chandler on 23/04/2025 - 14:27
              +2

              @syousef:

              I haven't had a speeding fine in 25 years […]

              Congratulations.

              I agree that people shouldn't intentionally speed. Your argument is fine for people who contstantly and intentionally speed.

              This wasn't about those who constantly and intentionally speed. Having said that, my feeling is the ones most vocal about all this are the ones cruising ~10km over the limit (according to GPS, not speedo) and getting (deservedly) pinged. For gods sake - going 10% over the limit is going to get you there ~10% faster. What are you going to do with another 6 minutes in Wollongong?

              But anyway, I think you missed the point where I said:

              So when you get booked for "going 5 km/h over the limit", your instruments were likely telling you that you were going 10 over.

              In my experience, no speedo's register accurately, they're all reading over ~5% (not actually a straight %). So "drifting" over the limit isn't going to get you booked.

              But if you think you've never even momentarily drifted over the limit, it's your license that should be revoked.

              I'm also no saying anyone should get their license revoked, just that they should be punished according to the law (and stop whining about the fact). I also never implied or stated that I don't speed: I have and likely will again, and I've been fined for it (and paid it, without whining here like some here seem want to do).

              For a start speed limits aren't always clearly marked and your GPS isn't always correct about the speed limit even when it has that data.

              So how about we fix the problem, rather than the symptoms: get signage improved where it is an issue. And sign recognition / maps should never be relied on for speed limits. Pay bloody attention. Yes, you might miss some speed signs (aforementioned poor signage, vehicles obscuring, etc) but you should then be wondering why you're wildly outpacing everyone, since you'll generally be going 20km/h faster (80→60, 60→40), or at the very least 10… (60→50, 50→40).

              Next there are variable speed zones, and the reality is even most "good" drivers I've seen drift over when changing speed zones, and go over by a little when going down hill.

              Variable speed zones - drivers should either be already familiar with them in the area or be paying more attention if driving in unfamiliar territory. The reality is those driver's "drifting" over the speed limit a) aren't "good" drivers; and b) aren't getting fined, since their actual speed is still under the limit if they're truly "drifting" over a tad.

              Going down a hill? You should be braking, not going over the speed limit. If you choose not to brake, you choose to risk getting fined. No sympathy here.

              If people did start being more cautious about their speed, the rules would be enforced more harshly to maintain the revenue.

              There it is! Everyone tick your bingo card! It's all for the ReVeNuE!!!

              Go ahead - prove yourself right. I won't stop you. Stop speeding - stop making it "so damn profitable" for them. And when they tighten enforcement, lower the tolerance, etc; then, you can come in here and tell me you were right!

              And there are times when paying too much attention to your speedo is actually dangerous.

              Speed limits don't fluctuate that much, and you're speed shouldn't be varying that much outside of traffic, in which case you're unlikely to be speeding anyway. Most "good" drivers have a feel for the speed anyway, so would only be checking occasionally. Also the sort of times when you shouldn't be paying attention to your instruments are the times when you should be going underspeed!

              TL;DR: just stop bloody speeding so often, and when you get done for it, don't cry about it. Do the crime, do the time pay the fine.

              • syousef on 23/04/2025 - 14:35
                -4

                @Chandler:

                In my experience, no speedo's register accurately, they're all reading over ~5% (not actually a straight %). So "drifting" over the limit isn't going to get you booked.

                That's false on the face of it. 5% over at 60km/hr is 63km/hr. You just have to pass the speed camera at that moment.

                There it is! Everyone tick your bingo card! It's all for the ReVeNuE!!!

                Quit with the silly dramatics please would you? This is just human nature. If there's a revenue stream and you want money for any reason there's a motive to protect that revenue stream.

                You've put me off reading the rest or replying point by point. You clearly don't get it and it's not my job to educate or convince you.

                • Chandler on 23/04/2025 - 16:31
                  +1

                  @syousef:

                  That's false on the face of it. 5% over at 60km/hr is 63km/hr. You just have to pass the speed camera at that moment.

                  You misunderstand. Speedo reading 5% over means that instruments say 63km/h, speed camera sees you going 60km/h. No ticket, since you weren't actually speeding, but you were according to your instruments (i.e. you knew).

                  Quit with the silly dramatics please would you? This is just human nature. If there's a revenue stream and you want money for any reason there's a motive to protect that revenue stream.

                  Well you were just beating a dead horse. Yes, it's just human nature. Yes it's a revenue stream. I never refuted that; what I did say was against your point that they'd just change the goal posts if people stopped speeding, which in my opinion is ridiculous, hence the alternate capitals.

                  You've put me off reading the rest or replying point by point. You clearly don't get it and it's not my job to educate or convince you.

                  Sorry if my use of alternating capitals put you off - although you would have read most of my comment by that point…

                  Regarding me getting "it" - well I obviously don't get "it", since I'm not understanding what "it" is that I'm supposed to be getting.

                  No it's not your job to educate or convince me, although of what I'm not even sure now. I do feel like I'm reasonably educated, although always happy to fill any gaps in my knowledge.

                  • syousef on 24/04/2025 - 19:07
                    -1

                    @Chandler: The only misunderstanding is you misunderstanding what I said. It's trivially easy to drift 3km/hr over the limit and actually be speeding. I don't think I've ever seen anyone drive targeting 60km/hr exactly that never drifted over by as little as 3km/hr. I'd argue that paying that much attention to your speedo is at the expense of paying attention to the road. Furthermore because people know it's reading lower, they either drive to 60km/hr on the GPS instead or think that they need to go 5-10km/hr over based on what their speedo reads.

                    In any case what do you not understand about what I said? I'm not interested in discussing this with you. I don't appreciate your ridicule and hyperbole, and I don't think you're interested in an honest conversation, so why are you wasting my time? You're not going to consider anything I've said for any other reason than to ridicule or reinforce your own position. It's literally a waste of my time arguing with you.

                    • Chandler on 25/04/2025 - 00:10

                      @syousef:

                      The only misunderstanding is you misunderstanding what I said. It's trivially easy to drift 3km/hr over the limit and actually be speeding.

                      It's not - speedometers are specifically designed to prevent this. If drivers choose to ignore the regulated & calibrated instruments on their vehicle and wing it with a "more accurate" (except when it's not) GPS, that's on them. Even more reason to respond with "stop whining".

                      I don't think I've ever seen anyone drive targeting 60km/hr exactly that never drifted over by as little as 3km/hr.

                      And that wouldn't be a problem if they were using their speedo, since their speed according to the cops would still be under the limit. Instead, they try to shave <5min off their journey by using GPS and then still going "slightly" over the speed limit, thinking they'll get away with it.

                      I'd argue that paying that much attention to your speedo is at the expense of paying attention to the road.

                      Already covered in my prior comment:

                      Speed limits don't fluctuate that much, and you're speed shouldn't be varying that much outside of traffic, in which case you're unlikely to be speeding anyway. Most "good" drivers have a feel for the speed anyway, so would only be checking occasionally. Also the sort of times when you shouldn't be paying attention to your instruments are the times when you should be going underspeed!

                      .

                      Furthermore because people know it's reading lower, they either drive to 60km/hr on the GPS instead or think that they need to go 5-10km/hr over based on what their speedo reads.

                      To shave <5min off their trip? Congratulations. Pay your fine. Be thankful you didn't "accidentally" kill anyone on your trip.

                      Would you be making these same statements if we were talking about people driving when "slightly" over the BAC limit? Or claiming that they "accidentally" drank a "little" too much alcohol? "It's ok, I'm only slightly over the limit". False equivalence? Probably, but similar argument.

                      Do me a favour and scroll slightly down and read @Jaspa7's insightful comments (especially this one), and then tell me if little Johnny would prefer to getting hit by a car going 40 or 50km/h (ideally less at time of impact)? Remember, every 'k' over is a killer

                      In any case what do you not understand about what I said? I'm not interested in discussing this with you.

                      You don't have to, yet here we are. Just as I don't have to respond to you - we're both choosing to, and you seem reasonable enough despite the disagreement.

                      I don't appreciate your ridicule and hyperbole,

                      I wouldn't have called it ridicule, at least at you personally. Mocking the bringing out of the dead "revenue" horse? Yes. Outside of that instance, I don't believe there's been any other ridicule or hyperbole, but I'm happy to be corrected.

                      and I don't think you're interested in an honest conversation, so why are you wasting my time?

                      I generally try to have honest conversations - I'm certainly not interested in wasting my time, and I also don't like wasting other's time.

                      You're not going to consider anything I've said for any other reason than to ridicule or reinforce your own position. It's literally a waste of my time arguing with you.

                      Perhaps. It certainly doesn't appear we're going to find common ground or reach agreement. I refute the ridicule statement (apart from the aforementioned dead horse instance). And it's only natural for someone to reinforce their own position in any argument/debate, so I hardly think that's worthy of mention. I would like to say that I have been considering what you have said - hence my (detailed, IMO) responses to it - I just don't agree with it.

                      Let me close (this comment at least) with these:

                      1. I can see where you're coming from, but I still don't agree with it. We're literally talking about breaking the law and then complaining about being punished for it.
                      2. Speedometers are specifically designed to prevent ["accidental" speeding]. If drivers choose to ignore the regulated & calibrated instruments on their vehicle and wing it with a "more accurate" (except when it's not) GPS, that's on them.
                      3. I believe we're focusing on the ranges of 5-10km/h over the limit, yes? So 5-10% over. Lets assume that results in a 5-10% faster journey, so <6 minutes on a 60-minute journey (assuming the driver sped consistently for the whole journey). Why? To what end?
                      • syousef on 25/04/2025 - 09:26
                        -1

                        @Chandler: I'm impressed by your ability to miss or misrepresent every point I make and wax lyrical about how justified you are being a jerk to others. Please respond to this with another few paragraphs. I don't care what you think, and now I'm quite enjoying seeing you waste your time. In the past I've try to be nice when I tell people I'm not interested in continuing a conversation on this board and they've always turned around and behaved the way you have, thinking they have something so valuable to contribute that they couldn't possibly consider shutting their mouth. And when I've asked the admins here to intervene they've just told me to stop responding if I don't want to argue. So since you won't listen, go for it. I'm barely skimming what you're writing. I'm not going to argue points I've already made, or respond to your probably intentional misinterpretations. I'll keep writing a short paragraph, and you keep wasting your time arguing against things I didn't say in the first place and saying things that are trivial to show as untrue. Next time I might even use ChatGPT so it wastes less of my time than writing this one paragraph.

                        • Chandler on 25/04/2025 - 15:36

                          @syousef: For someone complaining about wanting an "honest conversation"…

                          If I have misrepresented something you have said, I do apologise - it was certainly not my intention.

                          If you think this is wax lyrical then hold onto your pants if it was something I'm truly interested in.

                          Good day to you.

          • Russell Dupsumtucka on 28/04/2025 - 08:56

            @Chandler:

            you're speedo would be reading anywhere from 85 km/h to 97.5 km/h.

            You mean 93.5 kph, if it's showing 97.5 the speedo would be 'out' by ~14%, or actual speed would be ~88kph

            • Chandler on 28/04/2025 - 12:45

              @Russell Dupsumtucka: No, 97.5. You forgot the +4.

              85 * 1.1 = 93.5
              93.5 + 4 = 97.5

              5.3. The speed indicated shall not be less than the true speed of the vehicle. At the test speeds specified in paragraph 5.2.5. above, there shall be the following relationship between the speed displayed (V₁) and the true speed (V₂).

              0 ≤ (V₁ - V₂) ≤ 0.1 V₂ + 4 km/h

              Source: Australian Design Rule 18/03 – Instrumentation

              Thanks for double checking but!

      • simplystu on 21/04/2025 - 22:09
        +9

        Actually the science behind it …

        They actually set car Speedos below speed limit (roughly 5% variation).

        So … For you to clocked by police doing 5km/hr over - your car's Speedo was most likely showing 9-10km/hr over.

        Just saying.

        • syousef on 23/04/2025 - 12:25

          That's why a lot of people drive to the speed their GPS shows. It doesn't have the margin of error built in. The problem then being when they drift over the limit they really have gone over. Also whilst GPS speed in km/hr is much more accurate than position in meters, it isn't as accurate on a hill as it is on flat ground. I don't know many people who know or care about that. They just think the GPS is more accurate than a speedo.

          • Muppet Detector on 23/04/2025 - 15:40
            +1

            @syousef: My GPS (Waze) beeps at me when I speed. My speedo doesn't though.

            • Chandler on 23/04/2025 - 16:33

              @Muppet Detector: Most modern cars have speed alerts, although depending on the vehicle this may not be considered a "feature". Only of real use on vehicles with traffic sign recognition or that update the alert level based on location (via a map programmed with speed limits); since without that you'd need to update the speed at which the alert is triggered any time the speed limit changed.

            • syousef on 25/04/2025 - 09:38

              @Muppet Detector: There's an instrument called and "overspeed alert". Years ago I had one installed in my car. You set them manually so they were a pain. The GPS makes them obsolete. GPS is good and you're right to use it. It's even very good at being consistent about the speed it shows. I also have Waze on my phone and there are definitely things it does better than Google maps.

              However GPS isn't measuring your distance and speed across the ground. It's measuring those against satellites and computing your speed and position based on a model of the shape of the earth. Despite this, it is in fact more accurate than your speedo. Still if the speed limit is 60km/hr and you're doing 60 based on the GPS there is a good chance you're slightly above 60 at least part of the time. There is a reason your speedo is intentionally set to read slightly over.

      • Eeples on 21/04/2025 - 22:17
        +9

        If you can’t drive at the speed limit that informs your skill at driving.

      • EyyBanane on 22/04/2025 - 16:25
        +4

        Have you tried 5km under?

        • supersabroso on 22/04/2025 - 18:09
          -3

          No one's got time for that, save it for when you're 80+.

          • EyyBanane on 23/04/2025 - 14:45
            +5

            @supersabroso: You mean 75? 😬

            On a serious note, if you drive 5km/h under the speed limit, here’s the delay for your trip duration.

            Original Trip Time (min) Speed Limit (km/h) Your Speed (km/h) Delay (min)
            15 80 75 1.0
            30 80 75 2.0
            45 80 75 3.0
            60 80 75 4.0

            And here’s what you will save if you drive 5km/h above the speed limit.

            Original Trip Time (min) Speed Limit (km/h) Your Speed (km/h) You Save (min)
            15 80 85 0.9
            30 80 85 1.8
            45 80 85 2.6
            60 80 85 3.5

            And practically it’s much lower as you won’t be able to constantly overspeed.

            • Jaspa7 on 23/04/2025 - 16:08
              +3

              @EyyBanane: This is fundamentally flawed anyway due to the way traffic lights work. You will either fall in an "early window", "on time window" or "late window" that are 0.75 to 1.25 of an average wait time (dependant on time of day, traffic conditions etc.) at the lights apart. You can then only calculate time saved on the distance to the first traffic late, and the distance from your last traffic light to your destination.
              You will realistically average below 40km/h (11m/s) over the length of your trip regardless of how hard you speed between traffic lights.
              If you happen to zip through an amber on light number #3, you will sit waiting at light #5 etc.
              So, assuming average wait time of 100sec, and 3min to your first traffic light, and 3min from last traffic light to destination..
              You can expect to gain an extra ~50sec catching the "early window" vs losing ~50sec to "late window" regardless of trip time
              Your arrival time will be one of three discrete bins separated by ~100sec, but with each only having 50sec of variability to how much you sped.

              eg. if expected travel time is 60min, speeding will get you there in 58min at the earliest

              Of course, this all goes out the window if you have such clear traffic and speed so much that you only have to stop at 1x traffic light

                • Jaspa7 on 24/04/2025 - 16:55
                  +1

                  @nobro25: this will only work if you have large gaps between traffic lights (motorways you mentioned) that allow you to leapfrog into the next "window"

                  i do hope you get caught sir,
                  your 20km/h over doesn't translate to 20km/h extra at time of impact

                  1. you have less time to react - not much, but consider that even F1 drivers on full alert spend 100-200milliseconds of derp after their go-light has turned green.
                    at a Delta V of 20km/h that translates to an extra meter before you've even touched the brake plus around 22m to come to a stop (compared to around 12m when doing 60)

                  2. the extra 11m may not seem much, but for every doubling of speed you had left at time of impact, the kinetic energy converted to damage goes up by 4x.
                    i.e.
                    1km/h at time of impact -> KE ~ 100J
                    2km/h at time of impact -> KE ~ 400J
                    4km/h at time of impact -> KE ~ 1.6kJ
                    8km/h at time of impact -> KE ~ 6.4kJ

                  3. lets ignore fact #1 and just crunch the math for 60km/h vs 80km/h
                    (assuming generous deceleration of 12m/s2 or 1.2g)
                    60k with 11.5m to victim: v^2=(u^2-2as) -> final v of 4.8km/h
                    80k with 11.5m to victim: v^2=(u^2-2as) -> final v of 41.6km/h
                    again, this ignores any difference in reaction time
                    the final speed is ~8x faster..
                    and the kinetic energy is ~60x more

                  with the 13 demerit point system - this allows you to get caught doing this 3x before losing your license.
                  If anything, it's far too lenient

                  as for fines, someone on 200k a year doesn't even feel it
                  -> should be based on a percentage of your income &or assets

            • The GM on 23/04/2025 - 21:24
              +2

              @EyyBanane: I wish this were higher. It is my go-to when explaining why speeding in cars is pointless. The lights you "Dodge" by speeding, will then "Catch" you in the next cycle more than likely anyway. Unless you're doing 150kmph in a 110kmph zone for 500km+ (which is incredibly dangerous and should never be done), in all city driving scenarios, speeding will never result in a meaningful benefit to the driver over the course of the trip.

              The only way to arrive earlier at your destination, is to leave earlier, or use your private helicopter from point A to point B. Otherwise, slow the F down, put on some nice music, a podcast or audiobook and enjoy the ride. Your mental health will improve tenfold.

              • Chandler on 24/04/2025 - 13:27
                +2

                @The GM: I always chuckle when I have someone gun past me but then I end up behind/next to them at one of the following sets of lights.

      • garage sale on 22/04/2025 - 22:57
        -1

        I drive a manual car and gear shifts in 40 and 50 km zones can sometimes get me over 5km, so i bought a sat navigation (garmin) it beeps when i’m over the limit, issue can be it takes a while after roads are changed form 50 to 40 km to be updated on the maps, not perfect but it helps. in Vic you get 3km margin for error in 50 km zone (based on permitted, detected, alleged speed on a fine I got before i got sat nav) , so the 5km would get you a ticket. But statistically, the longer you are 5km over the more likely you are to get booked. the $250 cost of the sat nav vs $247 fine ….

        • Nugs on 28/04/2025 - 09:07

          "I drive a manual car and gear shifts in 40 and 50 km zones can sometimes get me over 5km"
          umm, what?
          .

          • Jaspa7 on 28/04/2025 - 21:13

            @Nugs: you mean… you have never slammed a downshift so hard it propels you 5km/h forward???

    • SBOB on 21/04/2025 - 22:05
      +19

      Tried not speeding?

      "This one small hack will save you $ in speeding fines"

    • Dr Phil on 23/04/2025 - 07:48
      +2

      Ive got 10 years clean driving record
      But I agree there is nothing fair about this system
      Its clearly geared around revenue raising
      But complaining isnt going to change anything

      And I agree that many tradies are wreckless drivers and that the most dangerous time to dirive is 6.30am-7.00am when they are all on thier way to thier first job.

      Solution
      Always drive carefully and responsibly and respect other drivers

      • 2027 on 25/04/2025 - 14:30

        what about the other 30+ years of your driving record? Is that “clean” too?

  • shxhshzhz on 21/04/2025 - 19:33
    +14

    system that punishes frequency over severity and disproportionately impacts safe drivers who make occasional human errors

    The fine and demerit penalties increase as the severity of the violation increases. More speeding = more fines.
    https://www.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-11/Speeding_…

    TLDR: Don't speed.

      • Protractor on 21/04/2025 - 20:14
        +52

        Sticking the the speed limit is easier than whinging online

          • Eeples on 21/04/2025 - 22:19
            +16

            @Bigfellaborham: Your lack of skill at driving at the speed limit is on you.

            Have you considered completing a driver education course?

            • Protractor on 22/04/2025 - 14:05
              +3

              @Eeples: LOL. OP thinks everyone else should also be speeding up, (he took a vote with mates) and cops should be ignoring it.Not sure education will hit the mark,somehow.

      • sakurashu on 21/04/2025 - 22:34
        +6

        In the same way that punching someone in the face once and breaking their nose might be penalised less overall as a one-off than punching people in the face every week even if noones nose was broken??

        What's your point? Of course repeated offences stack up - part of the idea of the system is to encourage you to not continue to make the same mistake. While it might be safer to drive 5km over 10 times than 20km over once, the attitude behind thinking it is fine to travel 5km over is the attitude that leads to more significant speeding.

        Do I think driving 5km over in an 80 zone is going to make much difference? No. Have I driven slight amounts over speed limits before - of course. Would I turn around and be salty if I was a few km over and got penalised? No, seems fair enough.

        If your argument is that there should be a general amount of leeway then you should just pretend all speed limit signs show 10km less and there is your leeway i.e. modern speedos

      • banana365 on 22/04/2025 - 13:02
        +1

        So you, consciously or unconsciously, have set yourself a figure of 5 over the posted limit as an acceptable speed and you believe that's easy to stick to. The alternative is that you set yourself a limit of, say, the posted limit and stick to that. That works for most drivers.

      • Jaspa7 on 23/04/2025 - 16:25
        +1

        you will be surprised how much difference 5-10km/h over makes.
        not only is the relationship between your speed and breaking distance squared (it takes you 4x the distance to stop for going 2x the speed)…
        but the damage you do is also squared to what speed you end up at time of impact (kinetic energy = mass x velocity squared)

        it can end up being the difference between a minor bump and permanently disabling a pedestrian

        • Jaspa7 on 23/04/2025 - 17:29
          +4

          shall we do a worked example?

          you were in a school zone. had you have gone the limit (40km/hr, 11m/sec), your F1-like 200msec reflexes and brand new 21inch sports tires coupled with performance/slotted disc brakes would've allowed you to bring your speed to 5km/hr in 5 meters (deceleration on ~12m/s2) before impacting the child that ran across the road.
          Your 2.5 tonne SUV would've imparted ~2.4kJ of energy - still enough to easily crush the kid between two cars but fortunately only bumped away

          ..but no, you were only 10km/hr over, doing 50 (14m/sec) because blah blah revenue raising..
          your final velocity is now [v^2=(u^2-2as) for those following along at home] = sqrt(14^2-2x12x5) x 3.6 = 35km/hrat the time of impact
          this puts your kinetic energy at ~118kJ of energy - roughly 50x that had you been going the speed limit.
          little john/jill went rolling over the top of your windshield and will now need 14 months before they can walk again

          • Chandler on 24/04/2025 - 13:31

            @Jaspa7: So what ee should be banning is exponents and/or nerds, since it's the squares that kills the kids! :P

  • Nugs on 21/04/2025 - 19:33
    +26

    Catch the bus
    .

    • Bigfellaborham on 21/04/2025 - 19:41
      -1

      Helpful. Thankyou.

      • JIMB0 on 21/04/2025 - 20:02
        +3

        Pushbikes are also another option as they can't be fined due to a lack of number plates.

        • Euphemistic on 21/04/2025 - 22:12
          +7

          Not entirely true. Can still be fined on a bicycle, just requires police to pull you over.

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