I'm in the market for a second hand car around the $20k range and some of the Audi's look tempting.
However I know here and on other forums people are always advising against buying second hand Audi's but don't specify reasons.
Can I ask what exactly one should be wary of when buying second hand Audi's here in Australia?
@Speckled Jim: Not only did the Germans lose that race, they also lost two world wars that they started. With a track record like that I’d be giving their cars a miss.
The saying is "If you can't afford a new one, then you most definately can't afford a used one"
I find they have issues with their navigational systems, they always seem to miss the third reich
That is Tesla now - get with the times :)
What model are you looking at? You want low k's, service history, service history, service history. I've had an RS5 since covid and it's not let me down. But it was maintained extremely well and I still do that now.
It's a 2016 Q3 TFSI Auto MY17 on carsales
🍿
Ask your first hand
I've heard of people having good experiences (one person) and a lot of having a very bad time and selling because they turn into money pits. If you can find one with good service records and one with a EA888 and not one of the bad dual clutches then it might be okay but you will still have some issues as they arent on the level of Japanese car durability and reliability.
A friend of mine told me once that he dreaded the cost of every Audi service. On a particular occasion his bill was ~$5K, not sure of the work done but he gave me the impression that every 6 or 12 months it hit his pocket hard. So he sold it and bought a new Audi. More money than sense!
Another Audi is surely the answer to any of your Audi problems.
Know someone with an S4 had a turbo go at only 3 years old - queue the $13000 repair bill.
Something simple like a thermostat change on a VAG vehicle - looking at like $2500-$3000 because its some overcomplicated thing.
Want something like a map update on your navigation - thousands.
If you are rich, buy new, and keep it for warranty period only - you'll take a big depreciation hit.
Continue to own it or buy used out of warranty thereafter, you are taking a risk with your finances on the repair cost roulette that you may not have bargained for.
Just cause they are expensive cars when new doesn't make them work better as they age, it just makes parts availability and servicing costs higher.
They have some nice cars… but that's why.
Soo many know it all cookers on here lol
Can't blame Corolla drivers, they don't know any better.
I'd argue they do know better
i dont think they are bad cars if they have been looked after and regularly serviced but if they havent been parts and maintenance costs are expensive - i wouldnt be against buying one if it was serviced properly
After owning Audis and other VAG cars, never again after the Q5.
Things that you wouldn't expect to fail, failed on my VAG cars and the labor to fix them was astronomical due to the complexity to access the failed parts.
Op disappeared with speedoflight
Speedo Flight - the act of flinging your budgie smugglers across the room??
Good chat Op
I have an A5 3.0T disel and its been brilliant though the Dual clutch cost $5K to fix, no other issues.
Lovely car, would buy again…….
….only if you know a good euro mechanic like I have
which mechanic and state please?
I have several cars, its been pretty good and the dual clutch is the only weakness, I knew about it before purchase. been faultless otherwise.
If Uncle Ian's busy then try Cousin Habib's Fully Sikre Ferrari Emporium.
Vic, Birdman Automotive - he didnt do the transmission, got a diffferent place to do that.
unless you are willing to repair one on your own be prepared to shell top 💲for any repairs. even if you repair on your own the parts will be very expensive. To get actual experience on repair costs, just call up a repair shop as an A4 owner for maybe e.g. alternator repair or brakes replacement.
I don’t like their vibe of not displaying build up price for a new car without you submitting a form with personal details and wait for a dealer to respond to it at their convenience 🤪
(+ high repair cost if shit goes south when buying a used car)
Long time Audis owner here. I DIY my car maintenance since brand new I don't really care about depreciation, they won't make a difference anyway.
So with used Audis I am talking about 3yr olds and onwards… you will have oil leaking from anywhere. I had a 2011 2.0T it started weeping at the camshaft adjuster right after the warranty ended but the dealer took care of it, fitted an updated unit all is good. Then it started leaking again two years later around 2016, I changed the gasket it's all good. During this time, my other 2013 Audi started leaking transmission oil from the alloy lines where it joins the flex rubber hose. Apparently, there was too much engine movement that caused the fatigue on clamped alloy lines creating a pin hole. New line set from dealer was $450 in 2016, dealer insist that I abused the car causing the issue. I brazed it with aluminium weld(very cheap I had all the parts).
After this the 2011 Audi started to leak coolant around 2019. This time it's the EPDM hoses near the spring clamps, both sides so it's definitely the hose. This weird S shape coolant hose feeds the turbo and auxiliary pump. Anyway off to the dealer for new hoses, guess what??? One of the sides still weeping tiniest amount! I took it off inspect the connecting barbs and etc give it a good polish with 800 grit, nope. So I swapped the spring clamp from another hose and the leak was gone. The weak clamp seems happy on the other hose so leave as is. Around this time, the transmission coolant line that feeds the oil filter started to weep, the whole gearbox case full of muck, that was my fault I didn't change the o-ring on the line barbs when replacing the gearbox oil filter. $12 for two o-rings from the dealer sealed it good.
This is just some of the easy fix I have done to my car leaks. The bigger jobs with lots of down time while I work full time includes updating the piston, piston rings to fix oil high consumption and upgrade chain tensioners. I also had to replace the plastic waterpumps with third party alloy waterpumps because one of the screw mounts cracked, blew the seal and pink juice all over shopping center carpark. Luckily it was near home, top up the coolant tank with demin water from Coles then fly home. Apart from that, I changed every plastic hose bits I could find to alloy pipes, there are lots on Aliexpress, better if you can go on Taobao. There are different quality to the casting, the rough ones obviously will leak, buy the polished barbs or you have to elbow grease them.
My engines are EA888 2.0T is a gen2 and gen3. The latest is gen5. So if you can buy a gen5 2.0T you should have less issues. Diesels have their own issues, I have no experience. With VW Turbo and Direct injection engines for this vintage, you might need a intake carbon clean depending on the build up. I have a 20KG bag of walnut shell which is prefer over soda blasting. This will help with those poor trembling cold morning starts, clear some codes and maybe restore power. I don't find working with a longitudinal engine orientation an issue. Although it's tightly packaged compared to my Nissan, there's plenty of space. Yes, you will have to remove the bumper(which is a pain) but once you extend the front end (service mode) you gain extra 15cm or so that's enough for me to change the timing chain tensioner. The waterpump, alternator they are all accessible from the top, easily worked on after removing the air intake hose.
My problems are mostly mechanical, I dont have any issues with the electronics but my neighbors 2025 A5 keyless entry broke the first month he had the car. So, I guess it's really your luck. The car suspension is also fabulous, it remains tight and there no dry crack in the bushings until today. If you really want to buy an VW/Audi/Skoda/Seat I suggest that you get a VCDS scan tool. There are plenty of cheap clones that works you can plug them into the car that you are buying to scan for any issues. These tools can also clear errors that may exist just so you know. A very clean engine bay is a concern so bring a bright flashlight. Inspect every hose and seals around the engine after a hot test drive.
Funny you should mention oil leaks. My next door neighbour had an old A4 that leaked oil like a sieve. He would park it on the street overnight, and every morning he left a fresh puddle of oil on the road. I have no idea how much oil he poured into that thing over the years, but it must have been many litres.
I suspect this is all engineered to fail so the owners have to pay more for maintenance. Why does it never leak petrol and cause fire?
You may also see the latest gen5 engines leak in the future due to the shift to new plastic oil sump tank. I guess testing the plastic sump plug with rubber o-ring for 10 years satisfied their warranty requirements, and it feels really good selling Audi owners new plastic sump tank on a regular basis.
The Chinese are selling full alloy sump tank upgrade for Audi BMW and Merc.
I have a neighbour with a similar leaking Audi, he parks it on the road over lots of newspapers. This isnt an old Audi either.
Golf R drivers drive around with a bottle of engine oil
VW/Audi/Skoda/Seat
It's funny how many people don't know how many parts are shared.
When I bought my first Skoda the dealer's finance bro was telling me how smart I was getting a Skoda as he had a VW Golf that was a complete lemon and so were all VWs.
I was in disbelief how little he knew about the product.
Porsche SUV share the same plastic waterpump as well as many other parts.
They are designed for European conditions (LHD), they cant quite match the reliability of the most of the Korean and Japanese brands in our conditions
If you mean climate, Australian Audis are equiped standard with either option codes, better cooling system, different timers for fans and aux coolant pump after engine off.
8Z6 - Hot country
8Z9 - Super hot country
same on bmw, they have different aux fan switch for hot vs cold countries for australia it kicks in at 88c for euro it’s 94c. i live euro cars, but them im an engineer and understand why they things they way they do, dual clutch is expensive but smooth and comfortable, challenege for euro car makers will be EV, hard to differentiate engines when it’s simple electric motor vs ICE.
Have you seen the Korean engine issues??? What about their non existent theft prevention.
The theft prevention was due to them not having immobilisers. Under Aus law they are mandatory so no probs here.
Did anyone mention that it's a completely unethical company?
I stopped at Audi and started laughing uncontrollabally. Let us know how you go with it. :)
Audi aren't engineered for extreme heat in Australia. They might be ok in cold climates though.
keep in mind they share models with VW and Skoda, so you may be able to get a very similar car, but a later model, with less kms for the same price.
This is OzBargain. We only drive Camrys.
Or Camry derivatives.
Or an MG EV
Or Tesla's it would seem
…and still broke.
Same issues as VW (since it's a VW), plastic parts that fail easily, electrical issues, etc.
My mechanic told me he gets a fair few of them in there for things failed plastic water pumps, fuel leaks, etc.
I've had Mercedes and BMW as well and, whilst I found them both to be far more reliable than Audi, Euro cars aren't for the poor (at least AMG, M-Sport and RS. Can't speak for lower end models as I've never owned one).
'what exactly one should be wary of when buying second hand Audi's here in Australia?'
when the name starts with 'OW ! …'
that said, a mate was just given a free 2011 A3 Audi - by a guy who didn't know what the problem was - my mate is a car expert and reckons it's an easy fix - so totally worth what he paid for it … ;-)
If you account for there is a chance you may have some expense repairs, then they are a great car for the price given how much value they have lost already.
This isn't the place to ask for car advice. The hive mind here approved 2nd hand Toyota's only.
I drive a VAG Skoda Octavia RS. It has 70k on the clock and is 9 years old now.
I love it, it brings me joy every day.
I could spend $40k extra on a new one, or I could accept there could be a 2k-10k repair job in my future and just enjoy my car.
I'm a big skoda wagon fan, yet haven't had a chance to actually own one.. You mentioned about 9 yrs of ownership, big kudos for that. Just curious, if you plan for 2k-10k repair jobs and some ongoing servicing/repairs that may cost around 1k each year (totally guessing) have you felt it's too expensive to maintain? Or the car drives too good and cancels the concern out…
Let me share my experience with my Octavia RS. Bought in 2018, 3 years old, with 30-something kkm on the clock, at practically half price - paid a bit over $21k, while the new price was around $41k. The first owner took around $20k in depreciation, believing I presume that European cars all fall apart after warranty ends.
Now, the car is 10 years old, I'm after 7 years of driving, ~90kkm on the clock, stage 1 since ~45kkm giving it ~300hp (I enjoy nice and cheap power boost without crazy track days).
Total repair expenses over that time - about $2.5k (mandatory water pump, oil pan plus something else with sensors), plus annual servicing cost.
Personal view? I'm European and have always driven European cars. Do they break? Hell yeah. Some of them are outright horrible. But if you know what to buy (model, year, even specific badge/engine version) - you can get something very, very reliable. People in EU drive cars 200kkm+ so reading forums you get great insights.. I admit, at the beginning I felt most "Euro cars fall apart" are oversimplifying and even unfair, now I'm now rather grateful for these, to be honest. They saved me thousands of dollars buying excellent, heavily discounted vehicles here….
love my bmw, i just enjoy driving if, and its rear wheel drive so feels much nicer than fwd when driving.
To me, cars should make your life easier, sometimes happier if for enthusiasts. Audi secondhand will achieve the opposite. If you feel your life is boring, this choice might spice it up and keep it adventurous (in a bad way).
We've had an A3, drove beatifully for some years, as soon ss the warranty period was over, coolant leaked, water pump failed, engine oil needs top up every month or risk of engine failure, and we said this is it, time to let it go before we go down with the car together..
Best TLDR.
I actually purchased a MK3 2016 Audi TTS for my wife to run as a fun daily/commuter. We upgraded from our MK4 Megane RS (it had just hit 200,000kms).
Purchased it 12months ago with 140,000kms. Paid $24,000.
I also managed to transfer the previous owners aftermarket warranty which covers mechanical claims up to the value of $40,000 (2 years remaining).
The price of the car when new in 2016 was over $110,000.
PHOTO:
https://imgur.com/a/mf78rit
Since owning I have replaced the rear magride shocks, main radiator (warranty claim), front tyres and oil sump.
Maintaining a car like this with OEM parts take some courage. For example. OEM Magride shocks are about $5000 for a pair.
There are some slightly cheaper quality aftermarket parts out there. And then some very cheap Chinese parts available (some good, some bad, try at your own risk).
Performance, luxury looks and value for money is huge here. But I know what I am getting into. My other cars are a MK3 Clio 200 and a 987 Boxster (known to have an engine that grenades itself).
If your not a car enthusiast. And if you don't have a good relationship with a quality independent mechanic. You should not be buying a used euro car. If you know how to work around a car. And are happy to take some risk. And are purchasing the car outright. A used euro can be ok.
I think this is the main point, if you can wrench it yourself then euros aren't that expensive to run.
Great taste in cars.
The last gen Audi TT is great looking car. @ $24k it's a good gamble. That's about what you'd pay for the same year Golf R.
Pity the first owner. The TT RS has held it's value much better.
The MK3 Clio 200 was also a car I was interested in, specifically the Cup Trophee in yellow. Still turns my head today.
For whatever reason, I never pulled the trigger on a Renault over the years. I started looking at the Clio Sport 182 Cup, then the 200 Cup Trophee and then finally Megane RS 250/265. I then had kids and then had to purchase family cars haha.
I'm now back in a manual in the form of a GR86/BRZ as my daily. Quite amazing today that the new GR86/BRZ is lighter than the MK3 Clio 200.
If I had my time again, I'd buy the Clio Sport 182 in red and keep it as a weekend car.
Yep. TT RS is big money. But also big performance. TTS gives awesome value for money compared to Golf R/S3.
Liquid Yellow is a great colour. I had it on my old MK4 Clio 200.
But Alien Green is my favourite Renault colour (photo of my car - https://imgur.com/a/OdXZMy9).
I had a 1st Gen BRZ. I didn't really like that car. Especially the engine. 2nd Gen engine seems like such a big upgrade.
I test drove the 1st Gen BRZ. Not sure how the torque curve was so bad.
2.4L engine is so much better. Of course it could have more power but it doesn't feel underpowered. Overall a well balanced and light car.
@JimB: Yeah. I purchased a brz. Was so excited when they came out and went to the dealer as soon as the first one arrived.
Finally got one. Hated it. Sold it a few months later at a loss and went back to a NC3 MX5
Get a Lexus, you won't regret it
Not if you want a sporty car.
But if you're looking at a new luxury car, then yes get a Lexus.
What makes the Lexus so good to buy new (reliability, low running costs, low depreciation) makes it a poor value car to buy used- with the exception of the LS which has poor depreciation for a Lexus (but on par with large luxury cars).
Agreed, Lexus' aren't sporty generally unless you get an LFA, ISF, GSF, RFC or any of the V8s really.
I would say they are good second hand purchases too though for the same reasons (reliability, low running costs, low depreciation).
That's fair (good second hand purchases too though for the same reasons (reliability, low running costs, low depreciation).
Pity they never made a IS-F for the current generation, or even bring the IS500 to Australia.
Lexus V8s may be sporty but very overweight, more Grand Tourers.
The LC500 is beautiful.
@JimB: Agreed, yeah no IS500 sold locally here was a shame. I heard that the V8 in that is bulletproof. You can get Japanese imports of the IS500 tho!
@Xxmilker69xX: I just checked and there are a few on sale on carsales.
However paying $100k+ on a private import isn't very attractive to me when you can get a demo M340i for less or an late model GS-F.
In a couple of years, importing a IS500 from Japan personally will be more attractive. I'll put a note on my calendar in 2028 lol.
Even better, just get a Camry
Life is too short to be mistake for an Uber
You would not believe how many people look at my Skoda longingly like I'm there to pick them up. Perhaps they're from Europe where the Octavia is the standard taxi model?
Imagine driving slowly in a Camry in the city trying to find a free car parking spot lol.
If you have to ask about reliability it's probably not for you.
Lots of comments here spreading the usual fear about Euro cars. Some true, most not. It doesn't bother me too much, keeps the prices down for those of us happy to take the risk for a great car.
Exactly. Properly maintained Euros are mostly fine.
Its more theyre excessively complicated, but to be fair all modern cars are complicated.
I guess theres a reason why my BMW was way more powerful and more efficent than my wifes Outback, but then also cost me $5k when the valvetronic system died lmao
That's pretty accurate. That's why I get a new one before the warranty expires.
I've had 3 modern VW Group cars and love them but do not recommend them to friends.
Partly because they do require a lot of preventive maintenance that can be expensive and partly because people say they will look after them properly and they don't.
Just more expensive maintenance really.
I had a few issues with my older ones (a4s) but my 2019 s3 hasnt had an issue and up to 150km now.
Costs: Servicing and parts cost significantly more than a Japanese equivalent car
Reliability: Audi's have a mixed reputation for reliability depending on the model and year. Their well engineered vehicles that have strong performance, but they tend to have over complex electronics that are more prone to failure. Especially when comparing to a Japanese equivalent car
It all depends what you're comparing them to.
I would pick a 2nd hand Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Nissan over an Audi. However i would pick a 2nd hand Audi over a Land Rover or Alfa.
Any second hand car may have had people engaging is acts whose leakages are only seen under certain lights.
Happy for little Gemma to sit on that spot that previous person sat without wearing underwear?
That recent trend where you drive around letting strangers accost your passenger for sexual gratification?
Reckon they have numberplate of that car?
Had all that checked out?
Dead people. You ok with it if there was someone who died in your car or was dead when they were put in there?
Hahahahaha hahahahhhahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
The Germans lost 2 world wars for a reason.
Not that I am saying Audis are great, but I don't think anyone has ever blamed 'poor engineering' as the reason for Germany losing wars.
I think that a more likely reason would have been Germany trying to fight most of the rest of the world at the same time.
I love a good VAG (and have owned several), but I also like cars, and so I accept the additional expense. As others have said, when things go wrong… They can go really wrong. You either need to be able to do repairs yourself, know someone overseas who can send you OEM parts on the cheap, know a good, honest independent VAG specialist, or ideally, a combination of all these things. Some examples:
I bought a brand new VW Up when they were discontinued in Aus for $9,999 driveaway. I ran that car into the ground, 230,000km, and sold it for $3k. It owed me a few sets of tyres, a few pairs of brake pads, one pair of rotors on the front, probably 3 batteries, and 2 timing belts. The rear drums squeaked a little bit in the wet but the car is a size of a small mouse, the drums weren't doing much, so never bothered fixing. The only thing that went wrong is the little sat nav screen became demonic with random false touch inputs… But hey, it was a 10 year old car. I loved that car so much that I still think about buying another one. You could almost park it in a motorcycle carpark, yet felt as solid as a Golf. HOWEVER, it had almost features at all on it to go wrong.
Partner bought a Skoda Kamiq Monte Carlo back in 2021, and mechanically it's been ace. The interior, not so much. There is an annoying rattle somewhere up around the rear of the panoramic roof, and Skoda have said "that's fair wear and tear" - pretty hard to fathom for a car with 40,000km on the clock, still covered by warranty. There is also another rattle around the digital gauge cluster, which we've fixed with a folded up business card. Again, Skoda say this is fair wear and tear. When the 7 year service pack is up, it'll be sold.
So I guess in conclusion, I don't really have a lot to add other than "do your research on the particular model you're looking at, and be realistic with yourself that you have not buying a Toyota, Suzuki or whatever. It can be expensive.
Also, posters who ask questions and then completely ghost should be banned. Thanks for utilising the combined knowledge of this forum and then providing absolutely no further input. Tosser.
Nothing more expensive than a cheap euro
BUT if youre handy, and know what to look for, theyre not all bad. If youre a novice to cars, and wait until things break to fix them etc you will get stung.
Service history is a must, but do research into the car and engine. Lots of the engines are really good, until they're not and need $8k of maintenance because they weren't looked after, and this work will largely be out of the realms of a normal local mechanic (ie timing chains on back of the motor etc)
There’s a reason Toyota holds the best resale value. I wouldn't go near a used european car with a barge pole unless its backed by warranty. even then I have to really think about it.
Why would you when you can buy a new MG with 10 years warranty for not much extra.
Cos despite the 10 year warranty, some people would rather walk than drive a cheap MG.
Funny, they are a lot better than European cars. The latest ones are similarly reliable as a Mitsubishi I assume since they are the only brands that offer a 10 year warranty.
Be a true ozbargainer and do all the maintenance yourself! And when you need parts, ship them to a mates place in Germany to pick up during a work trip! That’s what I’ve been doing to keep the costs down on my BMW, Mini and Skoda. Otherwise I wouldn’t recommend buying a European car. Everyone else’s comments here are wise
I bought a used Honda civic which was 4 years old at the time I bought it. I drove that for over 16 years and for the most part it was fantastic! It did have a leak when I bought it which took my mechanic 3 day to find by stripping down various parts of the car, but thankful didn't cost too much to eventually repair it. Over the years, I did regular scheduled servicing and the only issue I had were wear a tear. wheel hub, shocks. I did have failure in terms of the CV joint which cause to whole car to stop working. but again the cost was fairly reasonable as find OE parts online was cheap and easy. Also had a mate who was quite handy and helped with replacing all mentioned parts.
Now, I've recently bought a pre-owned Audi S4 Avant, (Audi Approved) which is the main reason I accepted it, given it came with 2 years warranty, servicing and roadside assist. Thank goodness I did, as within a few months of owning it, I started getting intermittent Audi pre-sense issues. I also appear to get some sort of leak, which the dealer was not able to fully resolve.
I decided to take it to a different Audi dealer, who found the leak and cleaned up my whole engine bay.
Thankfully these were all covered under warranty.
Everything else has been very solid and reliable. Of course the Audi and Honda are nowhere near comparable and I still love Japanese cars, but I knew what I was getting into, when I decided I buying the S4. I still have the option to extend the Audi warranty by another two years, which I'm considering.
I love everything about my Audi, performance, handling, build quality (MY18/19) model, except the maintenance and insurance costs. Current generation Audis are trash in terms of build quality, so If I was to change cars again, I already have a couple of Japanese cars in mind. I do love wagons, unfortunately most Japanese manufactures have ceased production of wagons. Looking at Toyota Crown or Mark X.
I did tons of research before committing to buy the S4.
What I found at the time was the Audi A3 8V and the A4 B9 models for the most part are some of Audi's more reliable models. Yes the has slight gremlins, however, if you do your homework, you will load loads of information about common known issues. So you know what to look out for.
As mentioned by some others, the EA888 and EA839 for the most part have actually been pretty reliable.
Probably also if considering an Audi to have a european specialist mechanic check for any issues. We took a crack at a secondhand A5 coupe (similar to other comments) covered by 2 years of AAP, and its been nothing but a pleasure to own.
Based on feedback from my mechanic though is that generally the Audi TFSI engines would be avoiding at all cost. Audi diesel engines are a fait bit more "reliable" and as long as you do the regular servicing schedules, it should crack many KMs to come. I did, however, purchase it with low KMs on it, (54k) so might be a bit more biased based on low mileage and 2 years of casual driving on it. Haven't spent a dime on it so far on maintenance besides tyres, and hopefully it stays that way!
54K at the time of purchase? Hope you've done the transmission oil change. It's all about preventive maintenance for older cars. As long as it's updated it will be a reliable car. People who net these cars at budget prices don't accept the act of replacing perfectly fine working parts. It is an added cost of running a poorly built luxury car.
I'm sure even used ones are fun to drive, but it's not just coincidence that you mostly see people from families who own investment properties drive them.
It's someone who really can't afford an import car
Not so much the car, it's the lack of mechanics willing to work on more complex engineered vehicle systems when things go wrong. A wheel bearing failure in a JPN car can just be a case of changing the bearing, in an Audi, it's full disassembly of the rear suspension and replacement of the bearing (pressed into the hub) and wheel hub assembly with sensors.
watch out for the engine and make etc
had one - was beautiful indeed ! very nice and everything worked very nicely
until one cylinder gave in - which in Oz basically means write off..
It seems like you want to buy one, but you also have concern from other people. My suggest would be that follow your heart, just go and buy it. No matter what the other concerns is not yours. Go buy one and you will know it by yourself.
Brand or near new, with factory warranty.
Go and get a Lexus if you want some out of warranty Lux.
@Gunnar: Nuvolari had a legendary win against the Germans in 1935.
It's settled OP — buy an Alfa.