Should Art Union Raffles Be a Banned Item?

HamBoi69 on 19/09/2025 - 14:33
Last edited 19/09/2025 - 14:33

So, here’s my deal (now unpublished), and apparently the reasons for that are that lotteries are a banned item on OzB. Now I attempted to refute this, and suggest that my deal was the point rather than the lottery. For transparency, here is the moderators response.

So my question to you, the community of OzB, should posts like mine be allowed, whereby the deal isn’t on the “lottery” (because there’s never a deal on them), but rather a benefit from entering (i.e the Velocity Points), constituting a deal.

It was clear that the community enjoyed the deal (hence the high number of votes), and people only had respect for the cause and saw the points as a benefit.

Now, to the moderators point of the NSW gambling act; yeah sure I'll engage a solicitor in each Australian state just to post something on OzBargain from now on. But seriously, here’s what ChatGPT said, simply based on the wording:

So: art unions / raffles are a form of gambling legally (lotteries / games of chance), but unless they are being offered by a betting service provider, or otherwise fall under the definitions used in the Betting and Racing / Totalizator Acts, they likely are not “gambling products” for the purposes of GL4015’s advertising inducements provisions.

Anyway, I’ll let the people decide, I’ve rested my case. Vote below.

Poll Options

  • 21
    Posts like these SHOULD be allowed
  • 49
    Posts like these SHOULD NOT be allowed
Site Discussion

Comments

  • HamBoi69 on 19/09/2025 - 14:34
    -8

    Let’s see if we can get the deal back up :)

  • Dlw on 19/09/2025 - 14:36
    +8

    I see this more of a deal than when a movie is added to a streaming service.

  • Moderatorneil on 19/09/2025 - 14:47

    Guys, as you know OzBargain polls override Australian law/takedown letters from the government.

    /s

    • HamBoi69 on 19/09/2025 - 15:13
      -7

      Sarcasm noted, but another mod literally told me to “seek expert legal advice” on Art Unions and post the outcome here. I’m just doing the homework you guys asked for.

      • tenpercent on 19/09/2025 - 15:16
        +1

        I saw the screenshot. It said "expert legal advices" plural! Classic ozbargain.

        • HamBoi69 on 19/09/2025 - 15:18
          -1

          @MS Paint

      • neil on 19/09/2025 - 15:19
        +7

        I believe you'll find the expert legal advice on these forums only applies to car accidents unfortunately.

        • HamBoi69 on 19/09/2025 - 15:22
          -1

          True. Though if OzB ever bans raffles and roundabouts, I’ll know who to blame.

      • Muppet Detector on 20/09/2025 - 21:24

        but another mod literally told me to “seek expert legal advice

        How many people qualified to give expert legal advice do you believe would be doing it for free on OzB?

        I’m just doing the homework you guys asked for.

        I'm thinking they had something else in mind.

    • onetwothreefour on 19/09/2025 - 15:03
      +3

      The mods on here are usually pretty fair and good at listening to user feedback and advice.

      I'd say this comment is a bit off https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/16921170/redir considering the mod actually said they may change their mind based on user discussions and the OP seeking legal advice. Other than that no issues with the mods at all.

      • PainToad on 19/09/2025 - 15:29
        +5

        You don't find the snarky comment telling HamBoi to seek legal advice in all states in order for them to post a deal to be unnecessary?

        Or one mod telling them to open the discussion up to the community only to have other mods make saracstic comments about doing so?

        Sorry, I don't think that's right.

        This could have all been avoided with…
        "It's a grey area legally and we don't want the risk, but thank you for taking the time to post the deal".

        Simple and polite.

        • onetwothreefour on 19/09/2025 - 16:18

          I did mention in my comment that the comment made by the mod in this thread was "off" so I do agree with you there, and also agree that the response about getting legal advice in each state was a bit dismissive to the OP but on the other hand we didn't see the full thread between the OP and the mods, maybe we're just seeing the end part and OP was being a pain and derserved a snarky ending. Maybe the OP has a history of this type of thing and the mods don't want to deal with it every time.

          We don't know the full story so am not going to judge either way, I just feel that the mods are usually pretty fair.

        • neil on 19/09/2025 - 16:24

          I've received expert legal advice from my barrister jv and they have advised to read back the record for the jury:

          Guys, as you know OzBargain polls

          to:

          • Posts like these SHOULD be allowed
          • Posts like these SHOULD NOT be allowed

          Of course posts like these should be allowed, so should flu shots but ya know we got to follow the law.

          • jv on 19/09/2025 - 18:43
            -2

            @neil:

            expert legal advice from my barrister jv

            Pro bono…

            • SBOB on 20/09/2025 - 09:37

              @jv:

              Pro bono

              Never knew you were such a big U2 fan

            • Muppet Detector on 20/09/2025 - 21:26

              @jv: Teacher's pet.

          • Clear on 19/09/2025 - 19:25

            @neil: I've missed your cheeky comments.

  • DingoBilly on 19/09/2025 - 14:51
    +2

    They've literally had warnings and had to take calls from Government about not putting them up and they could be held liable.

    Just a bit stupid from OP to try and debate it. Whether you think it's harmless or not, it's pretty open and shut case in that OzB should take them down.

    • PainToad on 19/09/2025 - 14:53

      Just a bit stupid from OP to try and debate it.

      The mod literally told them "You are welcome to conduct user discussions". So following the mod's suggestion is stupid?

      • HamBoi69 on 19/09/2025 - 15:08

        Thank you.

      • DingoBilly on 19/09/2025 - 16:15
        +1

        I read it the same as "You've been fined for running a red light. You are welcome to look at the photos and dispute this if you like."

        Always an option, but you're not going to get far and you're just going to waste people's time. At end of day it's OP's ego that is hurt, not really about anything else.

        Mod has clearly showed why it's just a completely pointless thing to raise, but you are welcome to conduct user discussion if you like. :)

  • Moderatorhamza23 on 19/09/2025 - 14:51

    and suggest that my deal was the point rather than the lottery.

    No one is saying otherwise. These deals were also for the freebie rather and had nothing to do with Gambling, thus why we initially had them listed on OzBargain for months:

    ‘Free 3-month kayo basic sports subscription for inactive or new Kayo members via BetEasy’ located at: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/516785
    and ‘Free Optus Sport Subscription for Ladbrokes Members’ located at: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/517594

    However L&GNSW decided them to be unlawful and we were forced to remove them after they contacted us:

    As discussed, Liquor and Gaming NSW (L&GNSW) have received two complaints where gambling advertising regarding Ladbrokes Digital Pty Ltd and BetEasy Pty Limited were identified as being published on the OzBargain website, in contravention of section 33H(1) of the Betting and Racing Act 1998 (BR Act)

    The offending gambling advertisements located on the Ozbargain website include:

    ‘Free 3-month kayo basic sports subscription for inactive or new Kayo members via BetEasy’ located at: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/516785; and
    ‘Free Optus Sport Subscription for Ladbrokes Members’ located at: https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/517594

    Your poll of whether they should be allowed or not is a moot point, because it is not our preference to disallow them, rather it was based on the ruling by Liquor & Gaming NSW. Even a 500-0 poll result will not change that fact.

    • HamBoi69 on 19/09/2025 - 15:16
      -8

      Fair enough, though it sounds like the real rule is “not illegal, just too risky for OzBargain.” Which, if that’s the case, I would’ve appreciated being told that from the outset, rather than creating this post.

      • ricadam on 19/09/2025 - 15:22
        +3

        FFS it's a bargin site and it's their choice what they decide to do or not. And they don't have to tell you squat.

        • HamBoi69 on 19/09/2025 - 15:24

          Sure, they don’t have to tell me, but they did, which is why we’re here.

          • helldoodle on 19/09/2025 - 18:26

            @HamBoi69: im with you, they wont let me sell people on here, and my cat cant even sell his feet pics on here, and when you ask someone on a date they yell at you and say things like "why are you in my room how did you find out where i live" maybe we need to start our own website called ozitsnotillegalraffleandcatfeetpicturesandslaverypleaseprovideyourhomeaddress.com.au

        • PainToad on 19/09/2025 - 15:27
          -5

          The mod literally said he could open this up to discussion with the community. Perhaps the mods need to get on the same page…

      • BobsYourAunty on 19/09/2025 - 18:44
        -1

        It’s the internet it’s not that serious champ get over it.

  • hyouden on 19/09/2025 - 14:55
    +3

    Whilst I appreciate and have benefited greatly from deals posted by HamBoi69, the mods are right on this one.

    Just because a deal is present, if the underlying activity is one that is legally enforceable, it should not be allowed.

    E.g. It would not be right for me to post a 'deal' on an unlicensed medicine where you need prescriptions for in Australia.

    • Ynk on 19/09/2025 - 15:10

      Well one is a policy decision of OzB (and fair enough) but the other is an illegal activity quite different. I note OzB have no issues promoting Alcohol sales, no ideal on their policy regarding Tobacco etc.

      • HamBoi69 on 19/09/2025 - 15:20
        -3

        Exactly, that’s why I wanted to dig into whether raffles fall into the same “illegal” bucket or just the “OzB policy” bucket. If it’s the latter, then fair enough, but it should be clear we’re banning them as a site choice, not because the law forces it.

        • freefall101 on 19/09/2025 - 16:28
          +1

          You keep changing your story as you go along, if you wanted to dig into this why didn't you ask that in your original post?

          There's a third bucket here too, "we don't know and it's too risky to allow it without knowing" which is perfectly fine, IMO. And it's what they told you up front.

          • HamBoi69 on 19/09/2025 - 17:22

            @freefall101: No they didn’t. They asked me to hire a solicitor and get their opinion.

  • studentl0an on 19/09/2025 - 15:14

    If the point was the points then you got my +point.

  • jv on 19/09/2025 - 15:29

    Gambling is not a bargain…

  • askbargain on 19/09/2025 - 15:31
    +1

    Surprised that Velocity would promote it then.

  • Moderatoralvian on 19/09/2025 - 15:43

    Please note the erroneous proposition being put forward as the point of this discussion.

    So my question to you, the community of OzB, should posts like mine be allowed, whereby the deal isn’t on the “lottery” (because there’s never a deal on them), but rather a benefit from entering (i.e the Velocity Points), constituting a deal.

    OP asked the user community to support allowing deal posts that advertise bonuses/benefits on OzBargain, whilst our decision to remove his post was based on legislation and directions issued to us by Liquor & Gaming NSW.

    What OP described as a benefit is defined in legislation as an inducement to participate in a gambling activity, and advertising inducements is prohibited. Breaches of this prohibition can result in significant financial penalties on OzBargain and its staff. What is unclear though is whether an Art Union is a gambling activity as defined in the relevant legislation of each State. Having received prior warnings from L&G NSW and wishing not to re-offend, we deemed it prudent to include raffles in our list of banned items.

    We had hoped a fruitful user discussion would shed light on what is and what isn't prohibited by law, and perhaps also lead to legal experts weighing in with case law and legal opinions. An "opinion" from ChatGPT is not helpful, nor is an opinion poll.

    • HamBoi69 on 19/09/2025 - 15:52
      -5

      I wasn’t running a poll or asking ChatGPT to be my lawyer, just following your suggestion to explore what’s legally considered an inducement and share the findings with the community.

      • Moderatoralvian on 19/09/2025 - 16:02

        I wasn’t running a poll

        Then why is this here?

        Vote below.
        Poll Options: 12 Posts like these SHOULD be allowed, 6 Posts like these SHOULD NOT be allowed.

        I wasn't asking ChatGPT to be my lawyer

        But you did exactly that by providing a hyperlink and a short quotation.

        following your suggestion to explore what’s legally considered an inducement

        Sorry, I didn't read any exploration of the topic in your forum description. You asserted the points offer is a benefit. The actuality of the points being an inducement was not mentioned.

        It was clear that the community enjoyed the deal (hence the high number of votes), and people only had respect for the cause and saw the points as a benefit.

        Your reply is inconsistent with what you wrote.

    • Ynk on 19/09/2025 - 15:58

      Can you reach out to your previous contacts at Liquor & Gaming NSW and ask them?

  • PainToad on 19/09/2025 - 16:05
    -2

    Mods can't have their comments voted down. One wonders if they're allowed to vote on others' comments. 🤔

    • Ynk on 19/09/2025 - 16:09

      Whist I appreciate the policy of OzB and the uncertainty of the legal position for the Mods, I do question to the logic of them pushing back on the community to determine the legality. Ultimately they are a for-profit money making business using the good will of the community, I would have thought rather than arguing with the OP here they could be more proactive and reach out to Liquor & Gaming NSW (and any others they have been in contact with) to at least seek advice.

      • Moderatorneil on 19/09/2025 - 16:28

        Have you seen the price of solicitors these days?

        • Ynk on 19/09/2025 - 16:30
          -1

          What was OzB gross income 23-24 FY?

          • neil on 19/09/2025 - 16:34

            @Ynk:

            While the exact financial figures of the popular Australian deal-sharing platform OzBargain remain private, an analysis of its business model, significant web traffic, and the broader digital advertising market in Australia suggests its gross income for the 2023-2024 financial year likely falls in the range of AUD $15 million to AUD $25 million.

            -Gemini

            I estimate that OzBargain’s gross income for FY 2023-24 was somewhere between AUD $12 million and AUD $22 million, with a more likely figure around AUD $15-18 million.

            ChatGPT

            Damn, maybe we can afford a solicitor!

            • Ynk on 19/09/2025 - 16:38
              -4

              @neil: You sound like a child, in all seriousness why not reach out to your previous contacts at Liquor & Gaming NSW and ask them?

    • neil on 19/09/2025 - 16:27
      +10

      Vote down my comment as you wish.

  • pegaxs on 19/09/2025 - 16:31
    +2

    here’s what ChatGPT said

    Annnnd, you lost me.

  • ValueInvesting on 19/09/2025 - 18:02

    I like the original deal post but still agree with the mods taking it down.

    Even if they had strong legal advice to support their position, it won't stop a regulator from wasting OzBargain's time and money with enquiries and/or taking legal action.

  • Downvoter on 19/09/2025 - 20:05
    -1

    I used up all my daily negs on the OPs various replies. Oh well.

  • Downvoter on 19/09/2025 - 20:53

    And yet people can still sell frequent flyer points on here and no one bats an eyelid

    • Clear on 19/09/2025 - 21:42
      +1

      There's a difference between breaking the law and violating terms of service.

    • sween64 on 22/09/2025 - 15:44
      -1

      There's also a difference between an OzB member getting a small amount of cash and a lot of people being funneled towards a gambling/raffle site.

    • tenpercent on 22/09/2025 - 16:22

      There's a whole section of this site just for competitions too, including lucky draws.

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