Looks like the tesla Model Y's pricing has come down again. They've also added some new colours Quicksilver and Ultra Red (additional cost), black hubcaps (for RWD and LR) however interior is the same. No more USS and this comes with HW4.
Model Y RWD $63,900
Model Y LR $72,900
Model Y Performance $82,900
Estimated delivery: Apr - Jun 2024
@JuryWheel: Just cause it's advertised at that price doesn't mean that's what it's actually being sold for
@JuryWheel: Not ‘based on’, why don’t you sell yours, tell us how that goes. You can always buy a new one for the same money (or close to) if ‘your theory’ is correct?
Thanks for the link. This MY23 Model 3 LR seems like pretty good value actually if you were looking at buying a new one. Would cost $85k driveaway for a new one, this is $67k da https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/m3/order/LRW3F7EK9PC780410?deliv…
Ready stocks. Many people placing orders and receiving the car 2 weeks later.
Tesla is pumping out more cars than the demand. The website quotes Apr to Jun for delivery.
Tesla resale values just tanked even more
Do you have any empirical evidence for this claim?
Have you even looked at the 2nd hand market?
I was considering selling my MYP (would have to do it if I changed job), but this reduction makes it almost impossible now.
The fact that it doesn't have LCT anymore is huge.
I had to pay LCT when I bought it 1y ago, and that makes it basically impossible to put the car on a novated lease now =(
Yeah Teslas aren't worth buying - they're overpriced at the current price point and will keep falling, and as Elon keeps tanking the company it will just get worse over time.
This isn't a bargain.
so?
That's the problem with the transparent pricing approach, the legacy way they'd just keep the RRP the same and give bigger and bigger discounts during negotiation rather than dropping RRP.
Does this mean Model Y LR & Model Y Performance were over priced?
Y Performance is a performance car bargain even before they reduced the price.
Wish I could buy one
Why not?
racism
Maybe they don't want to help fund the military expansion of a nation that overtly threatens the one they live in?
I mean, every single person here is exposed to a product made in the US.
Do you want me to shine some light on their remarkable history of world peace and harmony?
Do you want me to shine some light on their remarkable history of world peace and harmony?
Please do.
1945 to today is objectively the most peaceful and prosperous time in human history primarily due to US hegemony. Feel free to submit your nomination for any nation that you think has done better.
Perhaps you should learn about the tens of million of people murdered by the CCP and see if you can work out which is worse.
@1st-Amendment: Agree. The US is far from perfect but it's the best thing that has ever happened to this world.
Would you rather live under Communism, Nazis, Fascists, Islamic fundamentalists, European colonialism?
@1st-Amendment: username checks out.
probably loves guns and lives in his grandmas basement with KKK costumes and confederate flags.
but in country NSW.
probably…
So instead of engaging in discussion, you thought that a brain fart would somehow make you look smarter?
How did that work out for you?
You can get a two-fer with Tesla being manufactured in China and profits to the USA!
@Creamsoda: Great question, and worth reflecting upon when they are especially unreliable in recent years.
It’s almost like the post-ww11 arrangements need to be reassessed in light of a changing world.
Or we could just buy some nuclear subs and pretend we don’t have to think about it.
It’s almost like the post-ww11 arrangements need to be reassessed in light of a changing world.
They are on a daily basis.
and pretend we don’t have to think about it.
Just because you haven't thought about it doesn't mean other people haven't thought about
Why is supporting the largest military empire in history a good thing?
Depends if it yours or your enemy's.
Supporting your own military to be the biggest and best ensures that your way of life is secure. Supporting your enemy's military is a short path to destruction. Security is better than destruction by most people's standards.
@1st-Amendment: Why does the world need endless enemies? What makes you think a single overwhelming power is a good thing when that power can do what ever it wants and say what ever it wants with out repercussions exactly like a Dictatorship? What if that power go astray and start endless wars/destruction? who's there to balance it like our muti-party Democracy system? The world should never have a single hegemon just like i don't support dictatorships.
Didnt know 'TomCruise' hate chinese products?
Because CCP touched his peepee while filming mission impossible 3.
And no one likes your PHASED out HOLDEN.
O wait, the P platers and now all suspended.
Chinese EVs appear to be holding up well so far. Long term reliability TBC but if they have that its gg no re to established brands imo.
is this the 2024 model?
Yes if you are ordering now you will get 2024 build
Real question;
I have to replace my phone every 3 or so years because the battery becomes less and less usable over time, what happens to all these EVs after 5 years of use and harsh Australian conditions (parked in the sun for 8 hours a day all through summer etc).
Are they all going to have batteries at 60% capacity?
I think I heard somewhere dealers won't touch a Tesla that is 5 years old at all because the batteries need full replacement by then?
Are we headed for a cliff on depreciation because of this + the ever ongoing discounting that is happening?
I think I heard somewhere dealers won't touch a Tesla that is 5 years old at all because the batteries need full replacement by then?
hence why 2017 models are so cheap on carsales. The batteries are toast.
Yeah that's kind of what I'm seeing, $38k for a 2019, that's about 50% depreciation in 4 years, which seems faster than petrol.
My 13 year old Honda is worth about 50% what I paid on 2013 by comparison.
Where are you seeing this?
Not a good comparison, but I'm sure you know that. Cars depreciate very rapidly in the first couple of years then more slowly thereafter. When you bought your Honda it had already passed the worst depreciation stage. Your "50% in 4 years" includes that stage.
@banana365: While this has been true for ICE vehicles, I feel this this may not ring true for EVs… I have a feeling once an EV hits 10 years old, almost no one will want one unless it's dirt cheap for fear of the $20,000~ battery failure.
I know the Nissan leaf was an early design EV, but almost no one wants one of those now.
@Binchicken22: You can't really compare the Leaf with its 14 year old battery technology with a current EV with new battery technology 10 years down the line. The two vehicles aren't starting from the same position.
@banana365: It's true that different vehicles types have different depreciation curves. But you almost never see the EV people talking about the significant 10 year+ market. All those people at the lower incomes will not be buying a 10 year old+ EV that has terrible range and the potential to cost $10k+ to repair.
So EV's depreciate rapidly, then even more rapidly, whereas something like a Japanese or Korean hatch will stabilise over time.
@1st-Amendment: I don't think I've ever seen any vehicle manufacturer talk seriously about 10+ year second hand market, whether it's ICE or EV. It's partly that they don't care, they've made their money (which is certainly preferable to some sort of subscription model) and, for EVs, partly that technology is changing quickly enough that there's no reliable historical data to extrapolate from.
There are also unknown external influences; who'd have predicted a virus driving the increase in cost of second hand cars?
..which models?
https://www.tesla.com/en_au/support/vehicle-warranty
8 year battery warranty for a minimum of 70% retention.
Also 8 years vs 5 years?
8 years at 70% is not "pretty much on par" with 5 years at 60%.
70% at 8 years is quite different to 60% at 5 years…
And I'll downvote it again.
Worth noting too that if they are prepared to warranty that, they probably expect it to be pretty significantly above that. There's data on a lot of the Model Ss (that first shipped in 2013 ie 11 years ago) that shows they hold their charge very well (some degradation of course).
That’s why I believe that unless battery tech massively changes, Toyota’s bet on hybrid instead of full electric vehicle is a sensible one. Atleast for the next 15 years.
Nobody is buying Hybrid anymore. The Toyota Prius has been discontinued in Australia, after making less than 100 sales last year
You're ignoring the other hybrids in the range that are selling by the bucketload? To the extent that Toyota have stopped doing pure ICE cars in many of the ranges?
@spackbace: They are pursuing Hydrogen and only came out with a Full electric car in Australia this year.
They are behind not ahead.
@spackbace: The growth in sales of electric vehicles (EVs), specifically battery electric vehicles (BEVs), has been outpacing that of hybrid electric vehicles (HEVs) in Australia for 2023. While both segments have seen increases, the EV market share jumped from 1.8% to 7.4% in just 12 months, indicating a faster growth rate for pure electric vehicles compared to hybrids (CarExpert) (MarketersMedia).
Are you serious when you said nobody is buying Hybrid in Australia? Prius is not the only Hybrid in Australia.
The Prius was an early hybrid model. They've since made most of their range available in hybrid, so little reason to buy the weird, ostentatiously hybrid version.
lol what? Toyota sold nearly twice as many hybrids last year as Tesla sold cars.
They had to stop taking orders of hybrid Camrys in Australia last year because they couldn't keep up with production.
its fugly design had a huge factor, the new prius looks v cool but they aren't bringing it in due to fugly ones not selling well in the past.
hybrid sales are up 165% this month. Lots of people are buying hybrids
(profanity) lol. I bought a brand new Hybrid Rav4 last year.
You do realize that there are more Hybrids than just the Prius right?
Clear demonstration of how little you know.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/us-aut…
Nobody is buying Hybrid anymore
Lol what is Camry…
I think Toyota wants hydrogen tech to come into play. They spend billions on the tech
They probably want it because they now realise how far China are ahead on current EV battery tech.
No idea if Hydrogen for passenger vehicles even has a life.. California closing down Hydrogen stations, it's uncertain right now.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-to-develop-bz-electric-…
I'll just leave this here.. Toyota so invested in Hydrogen for so long and finally buckle to the pressure.
BYD rubbing their hands together. This model was recently released in AU.. article is from 2021 :)
Yep, believe the EU makers are doing the same, Merc delayed their EV transition plan because of slowing EV demand.
That makes sense, but hasn't eventuated, Hybrid owners are moving to EVs.
Why? Jury is out, Plug In Hybrids expose consumers to the benefits of EVs but still have all the drawbacks of an ICE vehicle (added weight, service costs, complexity) all for extra range, which 99% of people don't need until they go on holidays and need to stop for bio breaks anyway.
EVs don't need range, as ideally every morning you leave with a full charge, and who the heck drives 400k without a bio break everyday. Those that do won't be purchasing EVs soon.
There definitely would be varying factors but this article was from last year: https://insideevs.com/news/664106/tesla-battery-capacity-deg…
Although it doesn't seem bad, it is still a factor for all EVs.
My phone has 87% capacity after 3 years. Also to note that in equivalent charging cycles that should be 6 years for car battery or may be more.
Phones don't really have any heat management mechanisms built in for the batteries (other than throttling) so are more vulnerable to heat issues. Draining the batteries to 0% and keeping them 100% also affect their longevity. But planned obsolescence and all that for phones.
EVs (generally?) have much more complicated systems which monitor their temperatures to keep them within optimum ranges, as well as systems to prevent the battery from completely drained or charged to 100% (i.e when it says it's at 0%, there's probably still some capacity left in it, it just won't let you use it). A lot more engineering involved in the cars.
You've asked a reasonable question.
The thing is - an EV's battery cannot be compared to batteries you are used to in phones, tablets and other devices.
Why? Well the major reason is thermal management - all (good) EV's will manage the thermals of the battery pack. Heat kills batteries, as does pulling high current when the battery isn’t at a good temperature (EV’s wont allow you to do this).
But even ignoring that, there are other reasons. You probably charge your phone once a day, but an EV (using average driving distances as the benchmark) can go a week without charging. You said you find the battery in your phone starts to diminish after 3 years – that means over 1000 charge cycles. A base Model Y gets about 400km from a charge, so those 1000 charge cycles mean 400,000km driven.
And it gets better still. Your phone probably charges rapidly – probably in an hour or two. Most EV charging is done on slow AC charging that takes 8-24hrs (depending on battery capacity and charge rate) to fully charge. Of course you can charge faster at public DC chargers, but most people will be charging while they sleep. This gentle charging further prolongs battery longevity.
Add all this up and it is reasonable to expect the battery to outlive the rest of the vehicle. Particularly for EV’s with an LFP battery chemistry.
The battery in my car has active cooling, the battery in your phone doesn't. It's also different designs, phones aim to be as light as possible but on a car you've got a little more wiggle room. There's also that cars cycle their charge at a much slower rate - I charge my phone daily, my car usually once every week or two.
Plus the battery tech is improving immensely in cars. CATL (the world's largest battery maker) is saying their new one will have zero degradation on the first thousand cycles. If I charge once a week, that's 20 years. Their warranty is 15 years/1.5 million kms. To date, Tesla's have shown pretty resilient batteries.
Plus what will happen with all these EVs is the batteries will be sold for storage purposes and a replacement put in. My car has a 50kwh battery, even at 60% capacity that's 30kwh, enough to power my house for several days. There will be a huge market for those batteries in the future.
There will be a huge market for those batteries in the future.
And so what will that do to the value of current stock?
This is a massive side-effect with any rapidly improving technology, it creates rapid obsolescence for anything even a few years old. That doesn't sound great fro something that supposed to 'save the environment'.
I don't get what you mean, current stock of what? EVs can be fitted with new batteries, old batteries will go into grid/property storage and no one is going to rip their powerwall off their house just because they can get a higher density one than they could before, if anything leave it there and supplement it with a new one. Batteries aren't becoming obsolete, they're still storing power and still usable.
Once a battery truly hits end of life, recycle it. Batteries are made up expensive metals that are far cheaper to recycle than get virgin metals in most cases. The overall global demand for battery storage is unlikely to drop anytime soon, so it'll just keep on getting plowed back into the same use case.
current stock of what
EV's. Who is buying a crap old EV if the new models are so much better?
old batteries will go into grid/property storage
Is that what they told you. Where are all these old used battery property storage solutions that I can buy today?
Batteries are made up expensive metals that are far cheaper to recycle
So cheap that no-one in Australia has managed to work out a way to do it…
EV's. Who is buying a crap old EV if the new models are so much better?
You may have noticed but the entire car industry is built around "better" cars coming along every year.
People will buy old EVs because they are cheaper. Much like people buy used cars because they are cheaper.
Is that what they told you. Where are all these old used battery property storage solutions that I can buy today?
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/BYD-s-EV-battery…
I said "will". The reason being that car batteries are made to last at least 10 years and the number of EVs in Australia that are more than 10 years old can be measured in the hundreds.
So cheap that no-one in Australia has managed to work out a way to do it…
It sucks being in Australia, where we have no idea how things work and are unable to implement things that are working overseas.
We don't recycle here (well, we do - https://www.ecobatt.net/) because of the small scale. But it's easy to do. Right now we mostly ship overseas for old batteries, that doesn't make it impossible (or even hard).
People will buy old EVs because they are cheaper
Noone is going to be buying an old car with a terrible range and potential $10k+ liability.
@1st-Amendment: Lol, "Terrible range" as in 200km that costs next to nothing to recharge, if it's only $10k people will snap them up rather than pay for petrol. Have you seen some of the cars on the road? They barely look like they'll make it to the next petrol station. Anyone still driving a mid-90s hyundai will jump at the chance of a cheap EV instead. They will sell, it just depends at what price.
Anything less than 8 years old will still be under warranty. Once those come of age, batteries will be way cheaper than $10k, new ones in cars will be less than $4k by years end. The rest of the car is really reliable. If the battery is a risk, someone will buy the car cheap, replace it and have a perfectly good car to keep driving.
The good thing about batteries is they tend to just keep degrading. The risk of it getting a lot worse quickly is small, smaller than the risk taken with any shitbox car.
Lol, "Terrible range" as in 200km
The original Leafs are under 100km some under 50km.
I don't know anyone who would pay for that.
The good thing about batteries is they tend to just keep degrading.
This is a good thing to you? So that 50km Leaf will soon be 40km? Then 30km? This is your sales pitch?
I prefer a car that I can drive somewhere and then get back home again.
The original Leafs are under 100km some under 50km.
I don't know anyone who would pay for that.
Replace the battery then. A Leaf that old can even get a bigger battery put in for less than $10k. Or scrap it.
It's the same as buying a car with a blown engine, you wouldn't do it unless fixing it is much cheaper but the battery would just be recycled and the car scrapped if it's not worth doing, same as any car. Leafs with little range aren't representative of the EV market in the future, nor the batteries I was talking about though.
This is a good thing to you? So that 50km Leaf will soon be 40km? Then 30km? This is your sales pitch?
I prefer a car that I can drive somewhere and then get back home again.
I prefer to read someone's entire comment and take it in context rather than create a misleading response based on cutting out a snippet. And then you pretend that a Leaf with a 50km range is actually a real thing people have to regularly deal with.
You hate EVs, I've got it. But let's bring this back to reality here, we're in a thread about the Model Y. The top selling EVs are Teslas and BYDs, not Leafs (and even those have much bigger batteries now). My original argument about the future of batteries still stands perfectly fine, you've yet to explain what's actually wrong with it, just gone down rabbit holes.
Replace the battery then.
So buy a $10k car and then spend $10k+ on a new battery? This is your solution for all the people that want a cheap old car?
Or scrap it.
So buy a $10k car then throw it away. Even better!
It's the same as buying a car with a blown engine
Yeah which is why almost no-one does that, hence why no-one will be buying the thousands of old EVs with batteries on their last legs when they can get an ICE car for cheaper that lasts longer.
And then you pretend that a Leaf with a 50km range is actually a real thing people have to regularly deal with.
It is.
Here's the first result I found on Carsales. https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2012-nissan-leaf-ze…
Claimed range 85km, which assuming you don't drive it to zero gives a practical range of about 60km. And as we agree "they tend to just keep degrading" so 60km becomes 50 pretty quickly, then 40 etc. How many people do you think will buy into that?
This is a real thing that old EV owners have to deal with. Why are you pretending that it's not?
You hate EVs,
False assumption. I'm just aware that newer, better, cheaper things make older things devalue quicker. A concept you've failed to grasp.
This is the problem with fanboys, they are blind to the realities presented to them.
you've yet to explain what's actually wrong with it
I did that in my first response, try reading it sometime…
It's not comparable to a phone battery with 2 lithium ion cells. EVs like Tesla's have over 7000+ cells. The wear is distributed evenly over them.
Teslas have been on Australian roads since 2012. Reports seem to be about 10% degredation over 250,000 kms.
https://gizmodo.com.au/2018/04/tesla-battery-degradation-und…
https://www.whichcar.com.au/advice/when-do-ev-batteries-need…
https://cleantechnica.com/2022/11/25/how-long-does-a-tesla-b…
This Byron Bay airport taxi driver had his 2018 Model S battery replaced at 666,000km. The new 90kw model S battery replacement cost $26,800.
https://acapmag.com.au/2024/01/australian-tesla-clocks-70000…
Owner says it will still worth it as the EV saved him $20k each year in fuel and servicing over the past 6 years.
The model 3 and Y have a 57kw - 75 kw battery, costing about $16,800 to replace.
Any yes, EV batteries are being recycled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2xrarUWVRQ
Do remember that fast charging at super chargers lowers the life of the battery.
Cost of EV ownership will keep going up as energy prices rise and govt introduces new taxes to replace ICE and petrol related taxes.
True, the goverment will have to replace petrol related taxes to fund road construction. VIC government did this 2021-2023. It was about an extra $300 per year. They got shut down as only the federal government can charge a fuel tax. Still, I used to pay $2200 a year in fuel, now I pay about $150 a year in electricty for my Model 3. Calculation: https://imgur.com/a/wCQFcdK I have not included free solar power or 25c/kw superchargers for interstate trips.
Even if everything doubled: Fuel tax was $600 per year and electricity was $300 per year, I'd still save $1300 a year compared to petrol.
I charge my EV for free between 11am-2pm and for 0.08c overnight with Ovo. No solar panels needed.
https://pages.ovoenergy.com.au/the-ev-plan
It will be very interesting to see what happens to electricity prices. Demand for fossil fuels is expected to peak in 2030, then slowly decrease. Who knows if supply/demand will remain in balance. Hopefully solar and big batteries will continue to drive down electricty prices. We currently have a surplus of power in the day, resulting in free power for everyone 11am-2pm.
So …
1) a commodity lithium polymer battery with no structural integrity, no active cooling system and a cheap plastic case, manufactured by low-cost operators
is equivalent to
2) a fully rigid structured battery, with decade's of technology improvement, manufactured by a top-five battery manufacturer, an active cooling system and an advanced battery management system.
Hey. You want to buy a bridge?
Not only that what happens when the companies release software updates and now both the performance and range is severely limited to what it was marketed as in the name of battery degradation? They do it with phones, neive to think it won't happen with cars
my phone battery dropped to 82% after 3 years and 1000+ recharge cycles. 1000 cycles means 350,000km.
Battery degradation slows down over time as well
Big price drop. Nice.
Would increase current owner depreciation as residual values go down.
Lol nope. They'll still try and sell their Teslas at almost RRP until they realise no-one wants it.
That seems to be a bit of a failing that many people have in Australia. They think that whatever money they "invest" (ha!) in a vehicle warrants some sort of return, even if it's just in the form of lower depreciation. A prime example is people adding kit to their 4WD. Just because they've spent a few grand on a winch, lift kit, bar work etc. they talk about how much a car "owes them" when trying to sell it. It might help the price a little, but only by a small fraction of what they've spent.
Eventually Yes
@JuryWheel: If new is $82k and a used is $75k, which would you buy at that price point? So used prices need to fall to match the value of buying a used one that has less warranty and more battery cycles.