OzBargain geared towards positive votes
Hi
Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this issue.
On Ozbargain, you can give a + vote easily but require a comment before you can give a negative vote.
As a result, it just too much effort/extra work to give a negative vote
so you just give a plus vote to a thread ..rather than giving a negative vote to a thread, even if you don't think the deal is that great.
Also sometimes you want to track a thread, but only option is to give a plus vote since giving a negative vote requires more effort by needing to add a comment.
Anyone else done the same?
Comments
Is this site geared to positive votes? Yes. This a site where people are looking for bargains, thus we are geared towards positive voting things of interest.
If it was a site for people looking for bad bargains, then negative voting would probably be promoted. Well..there's an idea.
If you like the deal, vote positive. If you don't like the deal, don't vote. If there is an issue with a deal like a listing error, duplicate, etc. use the report button. See voting guidelines. If there is a big issue with the deal, then surely writing a sentence or 2 telling us why is not too much of a burden in order to vote negative?
Also sometimes you want to track a thread, but only option is to give a plus vote since giving a negative vote requires more effort by needing to add a comment.
As above, Subscribe button
or
Add Reminder, which you can notify you say when the deal starts or a couple days from now
or
Add to Folders where you can add deals to your own custom lists, e.g. "Deals I'm tracking".
There's currently an ongoing discussions regarding to negative votes, and the general consensus is to make it harder and less effective rather than easier. If you wish to track deals, check what @neil has said above.
- Add to Folder (also on our blog)
- Add Reminder
Also neil wrote this in our blog — How to remember deals that start in the future
bigpallooka on 28/12/2012 - 13:31 ¶As with any forum if you say something that others don't agree with they have the choice to respond. With easy negative voting you get negative trolls who don't need to justify their vote. Being too lazy to leave a comment indicates you don't feel very strongly about the issue. Often a negative vote can be irrelevant to the deal or comment, I don't like the dealer, I don't like your avatar, I don't agree with your statement, you can't spell, you disagreed with me, I am in a bad mood, the mister/missus just turned me down… again. A positive vote is almost always "Good point!" or "Good Deal!". It's better if the community can have a constructive debate on a subject/deal so that all views are 'voiced' and leave it up to the moderators to weed out those who are just here to troll rather than have negative vote wars. I think the current system is reasonably good and infinitely better than many large commercial forums… 'cough'… (mumbles something about amazon).
- tyler.durden on 29/12/2012 - 06:54 ¶
"As with any forum if you say something that others don't agree with they have the choice to respond."
you don't need to give a reason to give a neg vote.
you can make any comment, word, and then you can neg a deal.So your argument has a flaw.
—
-negative trolls who don't need to justify their vote.How many negative trolls do you reckon there are?
I don't think it is as great as you think.
And if a deal is good, it would get more +votes anyways, so even if there was 5 negative votes,what does it matter?People can make any comment or type any word, and still make a neg vote
So people don't need to give any reason.
- tyler.durden on 29/12/2012 - 06:50 ¶
Subscribe is alright but needs few fixing suggestion
-put subscribe at the top next to the + vote or underneath the title of the thread
Sometimes there is a long description of the deal and you have to scroll alot to find the subscribe button-I don't like that it keeps sending me email.
-plus voting is easier cause you can just looked at the deals you voted, in your account which is quicker
-Maybe make a subscribe list in your account view?
the problem with the negative voting being harder is
-ppl don't always need to put a reason
you can just make a comment or any remark and then you can vote negative
so what's the point?
Also there are some people that are so FOR a deal (the $1000 chair from the company I forgot) that they neg your comment, even if u don't think it is a good deal, and then for some reason your vote eventually gets taken off.And those (pro) people all gang up on anyone who dare to make a neg comment and they neg any negative comment about that deal (e.g is the $1000 chair deal)
—
well since this is not considered an issue by people who commented here
Then I will still plus a vote, not always because I think it is a good deal, but I just want to track it and it is easier to plus then to
-click subscribe (not always easy to see where it is due to reason stated above)
-neg voting requires alot more effort.- -1 votetyler.durden on 29/12/2012 - 09:48 ¶
It's not that I don't think they are good deals..
Some deals are good, so I vote it.But some deals are neither good or bad,
but i still like to track them in case later on I want to go back to that deal to get it..etc..or to see how much that price was selling for that item at the time of the bargain etc..But my only option is to +vote that deal, since it is the easiest method..
==
But they need to make subscribe button at the very top or underneath the plus button
coz the subscribe button right now is hard to find, if the listing description is really long.And don't email me on updates to the subscription coz it causes spam.
==
Also with regards to the voting being geared towards positive voting..
A deal might not be that great, but some users want to track it, or for whatever reason they vote positive for any deals
so there is still an unfair balance…
Does that mean the deal was an actual bargain?
- tyler.durden on 29/12/2012 - 10:00 ¶
And as I said the neg voting is still flawed
-you can make any comment, even just type any word and then you neg a deal.
-if you neg a deal, and there are some die hard +ve voters, they will gang up and neg any negative comments, which end up hiding any negative comments, and for some reason ends up revoking the negative vote.
you don't need to give a reason to give a neg vote.
you can make any comment, word, and then you can neg a deal.This is technically true but if a comment doesn't meet the negative vote guideline, then it may be revoked by a moderator if not by the community.
-put subscribe at the top next to the + vote or underneath the title of the thread
Sometimes there is a long description of the deal and you have to scroll alot to find the subscribe buttonGood suggestion. We'll look into that. I would have thought people are used to having the button there similar to Reddit.
I don't like that it keeps sending me email.
Maybe make a subscribe list in your account view?
So you want to track threads but don't want emails notifying you? Instead just a page. Well, the subscriptions page in My Account is probably what you want but as for no email, we'll see what we can do.
-neg voting requires alot more effort.
since it is the easiest method..The majority of deals don't have a description that requires you to scroll. The subscribe or add to folder should be in the middle of the screen. I can't see that much effort is require to move the mouse. Maybe I'm missing something. Are you using a low resolution monitor or suffering visual disabilities (e.g. screen reader, visual issues)?
A deal might not be that great, but some users want to track it, or for whatever reason they vote positive for any deals
so there is still an unfair balance…
Does that mean the deal was an actual bargain?I don't think people vote to track deals. Hitting the vote button doesn't subscribe you to the page so I can't see what benefit it provides in regards to tracking. But making the other links more prominent is a good idea.
-you can make any comment, even just type any word and then you neg a deal.
While the system allows you to do this, a moderator will remove invalid negative votes. Sometimes the community beats us to it. Too many revoked votes will mean the user can't negative vote on deals for a certain amount of time. This helps them to get acquainted with what the purpose of a negative vote is.
- bigpallooka on 29/12/2012 - 15:42 ¶
An excellent and informative reply. I will agree with the OP regarding the negative voting tactics of some fanboys and also point out that in these days of portable devices the OP may be reading on a smart phone or tablet or be like me and prefer very large fonts :) any of which would explain the scrolling issue.
Regards - tyler.durden on 30/12/2012 - 11:13 ¶
Thanks for the reply..
-Yes, please look into putting the subscribe at the top of the page preferably (underneath the +ve and -ve) icons
It is a much better layout and provides the same consistency when viewing on other types of devices and makes it easier to find than scrolling..Can you make the subscription listing layout look exactly the same or similiar as the comment layout.
So we can see who was the last person that posted a comment, and also a jump immediately to the last page link/icon. If u click the thread title then it takes you the first page, but u can click a last page icon link which takes you to the last comment made.
"While the system allows you to do this, a moderator will remove invalid negative votes. Sometimes the community beats us to it. Too many revoked votes will mean the user can't negative vote on deals for a certain amount of time. This helps them to get acquainted with what the purpose of a negative vote is."
Even though you said mods will look into the neg votes/comments.
The reality is, it is too much work. A mod is not gonna read through every page of a thread of each negative comments, considering how much bargains gets voted everyday.Also with regards to community negging a comment.
That system is flawed, because in a thread where there is die hard (+ve) voters, they will gang up and "neg any negative comment" which in turns hides the negative comment and ends up revoking the neg vote. (e.g. the $1000 auron chair thread).The creates an unfairness for negative voters if the fanboys don't want any negs comments or negatives votes to their beloved deal.
===
Also just wondering will you be adding easier way to add
-font formatting
-quoting etc.similiar to how phpbb has a gui text editor?
the markdown etc.. is hard to follow and i prefer an easier gui interface like phpbb etc..
- tyler.durden on 30/12/2012 - 14:58 ¶
Therefore the whole argument about needing to provide a reason before negging a deal is flawed argument, since you can provide any comment, word and then you can neg vote.
And the odds that the comment would would checked is low, cos it is too much work for the mod
There are a few who plague the mods with inappropriate neg reports…. :-)
That includes reporting negs given because someone just 'doesn't like' a product, (including $1000 chairs). Negs should not be given unless it's a measurably bad deal. Opinions have no place in the negging system as it impacts on the visibility of the deal, (and of any comments…. including negative ones), bans the user from posting any other deals for a period of time, and affects the reputation of the retailer in question, (whether it was a rep who posted the deal or not).
I prefer to be able to view all deals and make my own mind up rather than have them taken away by a crowd who don't like a particular product, or don't understand a deal.The neg system is not a popularity contest
so even if there was 5 negative votes,what does it matter?
It vanishes from most peoples screens…..
- tyler.durden on 31/12/2012 - 06:24 ¶
if there was 100+ +ve votes
would 3-5 negs votes vanish it from there screen?Does negs over power +ve votes?
this is still on front page with 10 -ve votes
http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/89417
so your statement is not accurate
please look into putting the subscribe at the top of the page preferably
I'll put it up for discussion. I'm not saying that's not the best place but we are always looking to improve the UI, it's just figuring out how.
Can you make the subscription listing layout look exactly the same or similiar as the comment layout.
So we can see who was the last person that posted a comment, and also a jump immediately to the last page link/icon. If u click the thread title then it takes you the first page, but u can click a last page icon link which takes you to the last comment made.Good idea. Will also put that up for discussion.
Even though you said mods will look into the neg votes/comments.
The reality is, it is too much work. A mod is not gonna read through every page of a thread of each negative comments, considering how much bargains gets voted everyday.True. We can't be everywhere. I find it quite strange that people write little footnotes to us in deals such as "sorry if this is in the wrong place mods" etc. We definitely don't look at every deal and rely on people using the report button.
This is the comment attached to your negative vote.
Your vote is invalid. Saying you don't want spend $900 on a chair but instead on an iPad is not a valid reason. You can say that for any deal. 98 people agreed. I actually think that may be up there in the top 3 comment with most negative votes.
As per the voting guidelines,
No Vote
The deal doesn't apply to you.If the deal doesn't apply to you then don't vote. By your reasoning given in the comment, you could negative vote every post you are not interested in. That's simply not how our voting system works.
Also just wondering will you be adding easier way to add
-font formattingHave a look at the Markdown links below every comment.
*word* is italic **word** is boldetc.
-quoting etc.
Use > to quote
the markdown etc.. is hard to follow and i prefer an easier gui interface like phpbb etc..
You mean like buttons that add the code for bold, italic etc.?
since you can provide any comment, word and then you can neg vote.
There is no automatation that checks the comment of the negative vote. If you provide an invalid comment for a negative vote then the community or a moderator will revoke it.
And the odds that the comment would would checked is low, cos it is too much work for the mod
Yes and No. History tells us that serial invalid negative voters usually get reported and tend to go hand in hand with those who personal attack others, foul language etc. There are always a minority of very angry people on the Internet who think everything sucks. Whether that's a reflection of their real life persona or a way to escape real life is another story. Actually, one of my favourite bloggers in Melbourne is an absolute jerk online but in real life is quite pleasant. Well, anyway I digress.
There are a few who plague the mods with inappropriate neg reports…. :-)
;) I get worried when I don't see your reports.
Opinions have no place in the negging system as it impacts on the visibility of the deal, (and of any comments…. including negative ones), bans the user from posting any other deals for a period of time, and affects the reputation of the retailer in question, (whether it was a rep who posted the deal or not).
Yes and No. Well, it's a subject we have discussed over and over again. The users can't agree and us mods can't agree. I've never seen another website use separate pos and neg votes and definitely nothing attached to a comment. We are really in undiscovered space here.
IMO, I guess there are a few ways to go, beef up the reporting system to interact with the negative vote and educate people in what votes are and what people should be using reports on. Or keep it simple, use the plus and minus like Reddit, no reason needed. I think for that it would be best to have one total number. We've trialed removing the negative vote and that didn't work well at all. Discussions are always good, maybe one day we'll get it right.
- +1 votetyler.durden on 31/12/2012 - 06:34 ¶
Isn't most what is considered a deal an opinion anyways?
When someone submit a deal, they are giving an opinion they think is a deal.
When someone +ve a deal, they are giving their opinion that they think it is a deal.E.g.
-Black mesa is always released as a free game but got massive +ve votes.
How is something that is always free considered a bargain?
By that logic, we can post every single free (ios) games.-End of the world bunker deal.
How is that considered a bargain? It was a stupid post that was allowed to stay by mods.==
Also I think you need to fix the pro supporter of a deal from ganging up on the neg voters.
There are some die hard voters that will neg any negative comments.e.g Die apple supports will +ve any apple deals and don't want to any critical thing said about their products.
@We've trialed removing the negative vote and that didn't work well at all
What happened when you trial it?
Isn't most what is considered a deal an opinion anyways?
Negative voting isn't an exact science. Describing it as an opinion or fact is a bit of semantics. In cases of deals you are not interested in, I guess pretend there is a +0 button.
When someone submit a deal, they are giving an opinion they think is a deal.
An opinion based on facts. If the price isn't cheaper than competitors, then it's generally not a good deal. Again semantics.
Black mesa is always released as a free game but got massive +ve votes.
How is something that is always free considered a bargain?
By that logic, we can post every single free (ios) games.I believe you are referring to this deal
We might have not received any reports. Since it is free software and is always free, it should be in the forums.
Guidelines and the specific forum where it should be posted to.
Free Software(Freeware) & Free Websites
There are so many useful free software programs and websites out there that if we listed every great one, then we would be inundated with deals. Feel free to discuss any of these in one of our forums. Alternatively, add the freeware to its dedicated free software wiki page – Useful Free Software.
Examples of what you shouldn't post:
Software: Mozilla Firefox (Free Browser, Always Free)
Websites: Google (Free Search Engine, Always Free)Examples of what you should post:
Software: DVB Web Scheduler Pro is now free (Normally you have to pay for it, now free)
Websites: Used Car Ads Free on Carbuddy.com.au (Free for now but later on not free)That has now been moved. Thanks.
-End of the world bunker deal.
How is that considered a bargain? It was a stupid post that was allowed to stay by mods.I believe you are referring to this deal.
You are correct. We move all joke posts to the forums. In this case, Scott made the decision to keep it as a deal. You'll have to ask him why as I don't know.
Also I think you need to fix the pro supporter of a deal from ganging up on the neg voters.
There are some die hard voters that will neg any negative comments.e.g Die apple supports will +ve any apple deals and don't want to any critical thing said about their products.
What's your suggestion?
What happened when you trial it?
It was a couple of years ago. See this post
Trialed for a couple weeks and based on community feedback was brought back. It's a long read but you can see all the feedback.
The whole argument that you need to provide a reason before you neg vote is flawed
because you can make any comment, word, single letter and then neg it.And then it will be revoked and you won't be able to neg for a certain amount of time. It's an after the fact, system.
Can you address some of the other questions in my post above?
Trialed for a couple weeks and based on community feedback was brought back.
From what I recall…. people were still able to vote negative…..
The votes were just hidden from view…. which is not the same as removing the vote.Clearly this issue has been running for a number of years, and does not seem to have improved at all.
I'd go as far as to say the neg vote these days is even less useful than it was in 2010.
Perhaps it's time to get back to basics about what the neg is actually meant to do…. which is really only a couple of things….- Highlight that a product can be found cheaper elsewhere
- Highlight when there might be specific issues with a product or retailer
Both of which are highly useful, both of which disappear with a heavily negged post.
Much of the negging these days is either stuff that should be reported, (http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/89313#comment-1175993), or simply opinion, (http://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/89514#comment-1180209)
Perhaps a different way of looking at things would be 'alert' posts, which would be used to notify of price/retailer problems with a deal. Pos votes remain…. lot of pos = good deals, no pos = poor deals…. with alerts to indicate why. Posts could be made as an alert, or reported and mod promoted to an alert? These could be highlighted within the main text or have a star next to them or something.
e.g Die apple supports will +ve any apple deals and don't want to any critical thing said about their products.
Exactly, and then the Android lovers do the same thing. And then we get the mob vote.
But we also have two issues here.
- The primary voting system (on Deals)
- The secondary voting system (on comments)
Which comes down to each being used differently and moderated differently which gets confusing to most here as most dont read the rules until they come foul of them (if they even do that)
As you say below about no need to justify your negative being a better option.
This conflicts with your point about the apple fans negging criticism of their product. Without a comment we have no idea of why they are voting, so how can we adjudicate in issues like you raise.
Neg voting of comments is far less an issue than neg voting on a deal.
Now 10 positive votes for an Apple deal, which maybe you dont like. Dont have to be explained. But it's a deal about Apple which you dont have.
10 Negative votes on an Android deal, not explained, by Apple fans who dont like Android, isnt very helpful.
And this is exactly why the explain the negative vote came into being. With a lot of checking by mods into users past history of posting/voting we saw a lot of fanboys** for each product down voting the other product related posts.
Now if you have a solution for this that could work, let us know.
**Fanboys of other types of product deals were also an issue. Plus the rampant I hate Dick/DX/Woolies/Coles/Vodafone/Kogan and so on.
- tyler.durden on 31/12/2012 - 10:31 ¶
So as I said
The whole argument that you need to provide a reason before you neg vote is flawed
because you can make any comment, word, single letter and then neg it.
chansthename on 01/01/2013 - 10:19 ¶You can but that comment is going to be massively negged as well as (I'm assuming) reported. It'll be removed by a mod as per community guidelines anyway.
TL;DR Yes it is possible but it's not going to stick around.
- tyler.durden on 01/01/2013 - 12:59 ¶
In theory, your comment seem good
"going to be massively negged as well as (I'm assuming) reported"In practice, not gonna happen too often, unless the comment was offensive or inappropriate.
Just look through the last few 30 deals
See how many negs were legit, had a valid reason, based on facts or reported.
Negging something or voting positive for something is an opinion.
People often make judgement calls based on their opinions rather than fact.And as i said, unless the comment was offensive or inappropriate, or really irk alot of ppl, the odds are it wouldn't be reported.
Forcing people to provide a reason before negging is pointless.
The whole argument is flawed, cos the negging system + commenting is flawed (due to the commenting can be anything, any words.
==
Commenting after negging should be optional, like positive vote is not required to comment.If someone wants to further clarify why they neg then can do so.
Just as comment after a positive vote, or being neutral and commenting is optional.You also need to remember, nowadays people use phones, tablets to browse this site, which are not ideal devices for typing.
Commenting after negging should be optional, like positive vote is not required to comment.
If that becomes the case, then the automatic removal of overly negged posts should cease, as it will become too easy for posts to become invisible…. (Think heavy negging by apple/android fans, retail competitors, etc etc)
In practice, not gonna happen too often, unless the comment was offensive or inappropriate.
Never underestimate how obsessed andy19363 is with invalid negative votes :) Moderators do work through those reports and action on the obvious ones.
@andy19363 — flame wars are going to happen regardless whether a vote is attached to the comment or not. Again, report them if you think they are inappropriate.
greenpossum on 01/01/2013 - 20:44 ¶Commenting after negging should be optional
Sorry, I disagree with you (but I'm not going to neg your comment) and side with the majority, but I'm not going to explain my choice. :P
flame wars are going to happen regardless whether a vote is attached to the comment or not.
It's not so much about flame wars….. I have little interest in the petty bickerings.
My reply was to Tyler's post, and my point was that if the need for comments to neg vote is removed, then the automatic removal of deals should cease….. as it could be misused, as I intimated previously. This is one of the reasons that the comments were instituted in the first place.Never underestimate how obsessed andy19363 is with invalid negative votes
It's good to have a hobby :)
+1 votePresidentClinton on 01/01/2013 - 16:53 ¶Comes with Australian culture. Positivism trumps negativity always. Has its pros and cons i guess.
RainbowHands on 01/01/2013 - 22:28 ¶if you want to be negative go vent your frustration on someTHING else NOT someONE else
then at least your negativity doesnt circulate around the world from person to person.
negativity crushes the world, positivity boosts it up.
- -2 votestyler.durden on 03/01/2013 - 06:56 ¶
Mods, Web Site Administrator, you need to remember, nowadays people are browsing this site with their phones and tablets which are not good for typing on.
Please remove force commenting after a neg, since the current system is flawed anyway.
- tyler.durden on 03/01/2013 - 11:25 ¶
I am actually typing this on my pc.
If I was using my tablet or phone, I wouldn't bother negging because of force commenting.
- greenpossum on 03/01/2013 - 08:40 ¶
I think that various buttons should be spaced further apart but the commenting requirement for a neg is correct. I have no problem Swyping comments in and have even posted a deal or two in a pinch. Deal with it.
Please remove force commenting after a neg, since the current system is flawed anyway.
Since the system is flawed so we should go backwards? I don't believe that there's flawless system anyway so all platforms should go back to their barbaric state?
Anyway. It's not that we are not willing to change things. I have met with the rest of the team yesterday and spent 2 hours just to discuss the possible designs of negative voting. We have looked at other implementations (pre-v4 Digg, Reddit, Hacker News, HotUKDeals) and compare them with what we currently have to see whether we can incorporate some of their features (and short comings). Sorry to say that we haven't found a solution that would satisfy everyone.
tyler.durden on 03/01/2013 - 11:23 Comment score below threshold (-2).
scotty on 03/01/2013 - 13:56 Comment score below threshold (0).- tyler.durden on 03/01/2013 - 15:18 Comment score below threshold (0).
- scotty on 03/01/2013 - 15:34 Comment score below threshold (0).
- tyler.durden on 03/01/2013 - 15:55 Comment score below threshold (0).
tikei on 05/01/2013 - 22:26 Comment score below threshold (0).
2
Nope, if I find a deal to be mediocre I leave it without voting. I only cast neg votes if the 'deals' are actually plain advertising. I'm pretty sure this voting system is meant to deter people from casting neg votes, so as to not discourage people from contributing.
If you want to keep track of certain deals, you can click 'subscribe' near the end of the opening post