Fiancé wants me to sign a pre-nup

freedomtrader on 18/07/2014 - 07:58

Hi,

Me and the fiancé were discussing about purchasing some property just recently and she basically wanted to ask what I thought about a pre-nup. Honestly, I was expecting this to come-up at some stage of our relationship - she comes from a family where getting ahead and making money is KING. I come from a more traditional type of family where family unit is KING. She has more assets (and loves to rub my nose in it when she can). We make about the same amount of money. Does anyone know of any good pre-nup or collaborative lawyers who won't rip me off? I get the feeling this pre-nup will be heavily skewed in her favour so we'll need to negotiate to make it fair. Also do you recommend I get out my own pre-nup?

Financial

Comments

    • peterw1 on 18/07/2014 - 23:06
      +36

      freedom man. I would suggest that you take a relationship break:
      …But I promised that I'd marry her and my parents are so looking forward to grandchildren…will you remember/care about this during any future divorce — NO.
      ….but then she starts crying…emotional manipulation started already. An adult behaving like an adult would never do this. Why doesn't she cry when she is rubbing your nose in it? Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
      ….I know my parents would be scandalised - they're basically selling their property to help pay for the wedding - of which a large proportion of the guests are her friends…So your family values marriage so much they are willing to make major sacrifices for this. Now what is her family sacrificing…the silence is deafening.
      …..comes from a family where getting ahead and making money is KING. So regarding fundamental beliefs you are so dissimilar.
      I think you should tell her in her own way she is a nice girl but she is better off with someone else, as are you.
      If she can make a genuine change to be more like you, marry if not set her free. goodluck

      • [Deactivated] on 20/07/2014 - 14:50
        +6

        I don't agree. There should always should be give and take on both sides.

        Have that financial conversation I mentioned above. If she has financial skills, I'd even seriously think about encouraging her into property investing, etc. You both earn the money, you trust her and provide the means (books, courses) to develop her financial knowledge to invest it. You could end up with a better marriage than you ever dreamed of.

        I'd still be skipping the pre-nup garabage though and here's why. The whole crying and rich-daddy thing… I know it's a stereotype on very little info, but it sounds like the typical daddy's girl that watched her father provide financially for his family. As most girls do, she idolises her father - but she can't marry him. So she looks for those same qualities in you. Where she can't see those qualities in you, she tries to artifically impress them on you.

        Daddy or someone else could even be telling her to be the leader through this pre-nup, because they don't think you can be. So prove them wrong. If you're resigned to become her husband, then do it on your terms. Take the lead - because if you don't, she will form a habit of doing it for you - because she's needs to know SOMEONE is leading.

        I'd call her early one morning (soon) and invite her over for dinner because you "have something very important about the future to talk about." Do NOT tell her what it is. Just keep saying you'll talk about it tonight. This will have her thinking about it all day - and then you'll "solve" the problem for her that night.

        First a nice meal. When she asks, say pleasure before business - that's for later. Give her a time if she's one of those types that can't cope waiting.

        Later the conversation would go something like this:

        "I want you to know I respect your your father, because I can see he has provided for your family financially."
        (This will make her proud of her dad AND you - because you recognise the same things about her father she does.)

        "Now I want you to know, that I will provide for you financially too." (She can take breath and relax - you're on the same page!)

        "But I want to do things a little differently." (My boyfriend is suddenly more interesting.)

        Firstly, I understand financial security is important to you, but I've looked into it and I know a pre-nup will not guarantee that. What kind of husband would I be to sign something that gives you a false sense of security and doesn't really protect you at all. So I want you to know I will not be signing a pre-nup. Please do not ask me about it again. (No negotiation here.)

        Instead I want to do something I know will guarantee your financial future.

        I would like us both to sit down and write a list of what we want out of lives together. That may include where we live, our jobs, what kind of home we want to buy, children, and any other goals.
        (Still meeting her inate need to hear about financial security.)

        I want to know what you want.
        (He cares about what I need.)

        I want to know what you think.
        (He cares what I think.)

        I want to hear what your dreams are, because I love you and want to make them come true.
        (He loves me and wants to make my dreams come true. She's getting weak at the knees.)

        And I want to share my goals and dreams with you too.
        (Share - chick word there, if ever there was one.)

        We'll write all these things down TOGETHER and then TOGETHER we'll decide on a plan to MAKE THOSE THINGS HAPPEN. Then we'll revisit the plan every few months to keep us on track.
        (This guy has a plan - my hero - my new leader!)

        Then spend the night cuddling/brainstorming - without writing things down. Don't contradict - just "muck around" throwing things out there.

        Anyway…

        While her dad probably provided financially, he probably didn't include her in the process. So if you do this, you'll become her NEW hero. Instead of her forever looking up at daddy, which means looking down at you (and you failing miserabely because you're not him) - little daddy's girl inside her can finally being to grow up and become your EQUAL - which strangely means she'll now look UP to you.)

        In other words, make it clear her future financial security is important to you, but you KNOW a pre-nup will NOT provide that - maybe do an online search and give some examples where pre-nups completely failed - but tell you have the solution - a BETTER way.

        Then do what you said you would. Maybe even ask her father's opinion on some minor points, to show you're open to learning from "the master" (in her eyes). If you don't want to do what he says, just say to her later, "It sure was a great suggestion. But I thought about it and I don't think that work for us because of this…" Then present something else and ask, "What do you think, honey?" If she holds you to what he said, say things like, "I guess there's no harm in trying it. But I'd like to do what I suggested first."

        The main thing is to recognise what's going on in her head - and meet that need for her. But in doing so, become her NEW "leader" so she will repect you and become your wife instead of forever looking up to daddy as the ultimate authority.

    • hahaboy on 21/07/2014 - 00:34
      +2

      Glad you realise and recognise that freedomtrader.

      Carefully read the advice/comments people have put here. They may seem harsh or wild to you, but really consider if you'll be happy with this girl. If you have even a level of hesitation….as you currently do, get out.

      The advice about testing if she is willing to go without a prenup is also solid advice.

  • chloden on 18/07/2014 - 22:52
    +36

    Probably gonna get negged for this but…..if you are seriously gonna marry her for god's sake don't have any kids. You are worried about money when you should be worried about the psychological impact your divorce will have on your children.

    • [Deactivated] on 19/07/2014 - 00:29
      +26

      I'd say the bickering, arguments, animosity, resentment and clash of values between mum and dad would have a far worse impact on the children than an actual divorce.

      … spoken from experience growing up with parents that constantly argued over money.

      • JediJan on 19/07/2014 - 09:52
        +1

        Both worthy of the positive votes; thinking the same as I (without saying it). Only thing is parents can argue about just about anything, and you guys are developing that same pattern, but kids do tune out … and go their own ways eventually. Perhaps some marriage guidance sessions may come in useful for you both to recognise that pattern and see if these issues can be resolved before any possible marriage.

        Correct me if I am wrong but I always assumed divorce breakups took into consideration what each partner brought into the marriage first (assuming one that didn't last long), and then lastly what each partner contributed within the marriage (assuming a lengthy one). So, abiding by that principle if a quickie divorce was on the cards, her long held assets would remain safely in her hands.

        Either way I am inclined to agree with most of the posters in here; I feel like running to the hills myself (and I am not married either).

        • mskeggs on 19/07/2014 - 22:14
          +2

          The court interprets things broadly. For example, a non-working wife of a millionaire CEO would be likely to get a significant portion of their shared assets as she supported his career, even if she made zero financial contribution.

  • OzFrugie on 19/07/2014 - 00:39

    while we are on this topic.. i am in a similar situation..
    the difference is .. well, i just got married!
    i was thinking to get pre-nup before marriage but we dont have asset yet (couldnt find a property to live in time before the wedding)

    we are still looking for a property to live in, but for the deposit, my contribution will be much larger than hers, almost 10:1 ratio.
    Because of this, i am looking for a way to protect that money of mine in case of divorce in the future.

    for some background, the reason she doesnt have much savings because she helped her family in trouble times in the past.
    as a matter of fact, she actually currently earning more than me by around 15k p.a.

    i heard that financial agreement can be done even after marriage, is that true?
    if so, i plan to get a financial agreement done before we sign contract of the property (or settlement date?)

    what are my options here?

    • freedomtrader on 19/07/2014 - 00:51
      +50

      Mate, obviously I'm a bit biased here, but I want to weigh in with my 2c - don't do it!
      She doesn't have as much deposit as you because she helped out family when they were in trouble - she's a keeper mate. She's got a heart of gold - I'm jealous because I wish I had the same. If it were you that was in trouble financially, I'm sure she'd help you out in a heartbeat, and she wouldn't be getting you to sign some contract that says that you owe her. Congrats on your marriage!

      • JediJan on 19/07/2014 - 10:00
        +1

        Agrees! Many years ago, when I worked in finance, there was the five Cs of Credit principle to be applied; "Character" was rated highly on the list. It may surprise you but in finance situations it was the lawyers, barristers, and other high rated income earners which had the worst credit reports … always the late payers. And who do you think were the best? Of course the low income, struggling earners, the ones with family dragging them down. If your wife has a financial commitment she will be the one to ensure it gets paid. I don't think you need a financial agreement; if your relationship did break down relatively soon, then what you contributed financially into the agreement (my understanding anyway) does get taken into consideration. Over the term of a lengthy marriage though that would dwindle.

        Who do you think contributes most to charitable institutions? Pensioners.

      • OzFrugie on 19/07/2014 - 18:21

        thanks freedomtrader.
        i think u may be right that if im in trouble financially she would help me considering the way she helped others in the past.

        this might sound funny but im just bit worried if say one of us has an affair or do not love each other anymore, she may get angry / estranged and will want to "punish" me by getting as much money / assets as she can..

        • marbliminator on 19/07/2014 - 18:51
          +9

          Dude - look after your wife, and don't have an affair. That will work out way better for you than any pre-nup.

          And if you're doing that - from what you've said about her already - she's not the type to run off on you / take you to the cleaners…!

          Read up on the 5 love languages too BTW.

        • [Deactivated] on 19/07/2014 - 20:04

          @firefoxy:
          1 in 3 marriages end in divorce.
          Hell has no fury like a woman scorned.
          I would suggest you get proper legal advice before you buy any property together.

        • [Deactivated] on 20/07/2014 - 15:01
          +10

          I'll let you in a secret. (What should be a secret anyway.) They all look nearly the same naked.

          So if you ever consider cheating because someone new and exciting popped up - remember this: if you got bored enough with your wife to cheat, then you'll soon get bored with the new floozy too. The only difference is, you'll be left with 50% or less of what you had, paying maintenance for children that think you're as relevant as Homer Simson, and having to deal with the nitwit your ex-wife is bedding who walks around shirtless in front of your daughter and lets her tattoo her backside which he then photographs to put up on facebook.

        • OzFrugie on 20/07/2014 - 19:12
          -2

          @realfamilyman:
          thats why i was thinking getting financial agreement …

          what happen if its the other way around, i.e. the woman that cheats?
          would i still be left with 50% or less of my assets/money as well??

        • sal78 on 20/07/2014 - 22:52

          @realfamilyman: and swapping one set of problems for another . no thanks !

      • danielz on 19/07/2014 - 19:29
        +11

        Look dude! You've got your head on straight when you're giving other people advice, but let's be honest, the way you've worded your other posts sounds like a severe call for help. I can guarantee you if what you've said is 100% the truth you're very likely gonna have a tough time together. I would definitely seek counselling or thinking this through a few more times - you could save yourself a lifetimes worth of trouble if this girl ain't really the one for you.

        • [Deactivated] on 20/07/2014 - 15:01

          This is an immutable truth. You never see relationship solutions yourself until it's too late.

      • sillyguy on 22/07/2014 - 11:55

        You finally got ur answer hey?

    • susu abis on 20/07/2014 - 23:10
      +1

      You have found yourself a Gem. Keep her, protect her, love her and have children with her because she is family through and through.

      Not everyone strikes gold but you have so treasure it

  • meumax on 19/07/2014 - 07:23
    +12

    Your parents are selling their house to pay for the wedding!? Wait. What!? WTH. If you have to sell your house to pay for a wedding it's way too expensive.

    It sounds like you AND now your family are bending over backward to appease your fiances family and at the same time they want to make it so they get to keep most of the assets if you break up.

    I agree with the poster above. I married my wife because she was willing to help out her family. Sometimes to her financial disadvantage. If that was the kind of girl your fiancé is it might be worth all of this. But by the sounds of it it isn't the case. I would think very carefully before making this ultimate commitment.

  • thermos on 19/07/2014 - 09:06

    I personally would have the chat with your parents explaining the situation and ask them for advice. Furthermore, if you don't feel right about signing a prenup or your parents selling their house, perhaps stand your ground, the conclusion may come about sooner than your realise.

  • dellbon on 19/07/2014 - 09:38
    +23

    Parents selling their home to pay for materialistic bitches wedding.

    Her making you feel inferior by you and your family's dearth of assets.

    Something tells me that there may also be some significant cultural differences between the two families that will exert even more pressure on your relationship if you have kids.

    Deep down I hope this is a troll because you're headed for a world of ****

  • [Deactivated] on 19/07/2014 - 10:02
    +6

    Just dump her, anyone who puts money ahead of love simply isn't worth it.

    • [Deactivated] on 20/07/2014 - 15:03

      Well, in her eyes he is placing money ahead of love by not signing.

  • pascal03 on 19/07/2014 - 10:30
    +14

    Prenup or not, I feel some strong advise is necesary in this situation.

    Harden the f**k up and grow some balls. Everything you've said so far shows how much your subconscious is telling you to stay away but you don't have the guts for it.

    If you marry this girl, you are entering into a business agreement not a marriage. She holds all the cards in this relationship and she WILL fire you one day and essentially leave you with nothing.

    The world is full of wonderful people, sorry you found a rotten one.

  • John-John on 19/07/2014 - 10:48
    +11

    I'd like to take you back to the comment you made about your parents having to sell up so they
    can pay for the wedding.
    If that is so - THEN I'M LABELING YOU AS THE PERSON DOING WRONG HERE.
    Bordering on disgraceful. Stand up. Be a man. Tell your fiancee that in the name of fairness,
    financial ability, compassion and love - you believe her parents should pay for the wedding OR - lets
    not even have a lavish wedding so that her in-laws don't find themselves homeless and battling for the
    rest of their lives.
    Common Man!! You haven't once told any of us that you are madly in love with this woman - or that
    money is just the one flaw in her outstanding existence. You've used feeble excuses such as promising
    to marry her and not wanting to disappoint your parents over future grandchildren. WHAT? don't you
    think they'd be disappointed having to sell up??
    Time for you to make a proper decision.

    • freedomtrader on 19/07/2014 - 11:14
      +2

      I didn't want my parents to pay for the wedding. That's the last thing I wanted. When my parents offered, I insisted that they don't and that we could handle things on our own, but then they met with my future in-laws and told them they'd pay for the wedding and they basically shook on it. My parents - especially my dad has a lot of pride, and this what he feels he ought to do. They won't back down on this. I plan to pay them back down the track - indirectly with an all expenses paid trip to Europe. As for the property, it's an investment and they will be using the bulk of the funds as re-investment. Yeah, the wedding is more extravagent than I wished - I was happy with something really simple.

      • big on 19/07/2014 - 12:27
        +1

        • You should give all your assets you have to your parents to pay for it.
          Even borrow some if not enough or stand up and ask your fiance to
          contribute.

        • Your parents don't need to sell property and can keep their commitments.

        • You don't need to pay any lawyer for a prenup, because it sounds there
          is nothing left for you to protect. If she wants one, you can sign
          whatever as long they try not touch your parents assets.

        Solved. If all goes wrong, your parents will still have the property/assets to support you or sponsor the second wedding :)

      • sparkles on 19/07/2014 - 12:38

        Have you told your fiance any of this? Like, how you don't want your parents to sell up to pay for a wedding that's more extravagent that you are comfortable with. Perhaps, that you don't even want it. Do you? You need to ask yourself these questions before it's too late. If you can't discuss this stuff with the person you are marrying there is a problem. One that won't go away by saying some vows.

        If any of the parents should pay, by tradition it should be the brides. I have never ever heard of a grooms parents financing a wedding. My advice, pay for the wedding yourselves (using her considerable assets that she keeps reminding you of) or not at all. Perhaps then, you could start together on an even keel, and move forward together with equal contribution (until children come into the picture), no prenup needed.

        • susu abis on 20/07/2014 - 23:13
          +1

          Chinese weddings are usually paid for by the Groom side.

      • MarkB4 on 19/07/2014 - 17:09

        Then you back down. Don't let your parents risk their house for a wedding your GF's family can easily afford.

        On the pre-nup; register a business partnership, 50/50. Sounds like it would suit her and you can't lose what you don't have.

      • squashy on 20/07/2014 - 18:03

        I'm with everyone, don't sell the property to pay for the wedding.

        However, if you really need to raise money, I suggest to do a top up
        https://www.commbank.com.au/personal/home-loans/manage-your-…
        http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-07-19/pers…

      • Unrvl on 20/07/2014 - 18:12

        how is that even fair? these days in a normal relationship, the couple getting married pay for it (or most of it) with a small amount of equal help from both parents. there are still some people who have the bride's parents pay for all of it.

        so why the hell did your dad offer to pay for it? and having your fiance's parents agree to that needs a stronger word for stinginess.

        i would steal a pair of her Nike's and run.

      • Whodis on 16/08/2014 - 23:28

        Not to be racist, but are you marrying into a family of the Shanghainese persuasion?

    • blitz on 19/07/2014 - 12:13
      +7

      You haven't once told any of us that you are madly in love with this woman - or that
      money is just the one flaw in her outstanding existence. You've used feeble excuses such as promising
      to marry her and not wanting to disappoint your parents over future grandchildren. WHAT? don't you
      think they'd be disappointed having to sell up?? Time for you to make a proper decision.

      Repeated for truth and so OP gets it into his skull.

    • drdolphin on 22/07/2014 - 14:36
      +2

      Is that because you're faster than a speeding bullet?

  • spychiatrist on 19/07/2014 - 11:27
    +1

    Pre nup shouldn't matter if you really like the person. She has the right to protect what's rightfully hers. I wouldn't be too fuss if i were in you're shoes. If you're intentions are true, you'll even suggest the prenuptial yourself.

    • [Deactivated] on 20/07/2014 - 15:08
      +3

      Point is, it should be theirs. Not hers and his. Common bed, common house, common kids, common money.

      • gromit on 23/07/2014 - 12:24

        for all we know he has shown himself to be unreliable with money so her caution may well be entirely justified. There is nothing wrong with prenups they are just insurance against trouble down the road. Just because you buy car insurance or life insurance doesn't mean you plan to have an accident or die.

        • McFly on 23/07/2014 - 13:34

          Prenup is not the same as insurance.

  • z10cvbnm on 19/07/2014 - 11:53
    +1

    Red flag to me.

  • xyron on 19/07/2014 - 12:23
    +7

    Gosh. Please get out of this toxic situation as soon as you can OP. I feel for you. :(

    As a lawyer not giving legal advice on this forum, I can say that "Binding Financial Agreements" (as they are technically called in Australia) can be very effective, but only really where both parties enter the relationship on similar financial backing (because practically, these are the only situations where the agreement itself is entered into on a fair and equal footing). Sounds like that definitely is not the case for you two. As mskeggs says, their effectiveness dwindles over time as you and your new partner begin to share assets, living arrangements, and make financial decisions together. The Family Law Act in Australia will always trump a private contractual agreement.

    Binding Financial Agreements are often used and are quite successful when you have two professionals entering into a second marriage with each other - where both parties have built their own wealth over time and can mutually and honestly agree that they have no interest in clawing at each other's empires.

    I also agree with downero - a pre-nup should not really matter because you should both have an interest in protecting what is yours pre-relationship, even if you yourself don't have as much as her. Considering that the average length of marriages in Australia is ~9 years before separation and ~11 years before divorce, you would be utterly stupid to not think of managing and protecting your position post-marriage before you enter into one.

    The one thing you absolutely must make sure of in any Binding Financial Agreement is that your assets are just as protected as hers. I have seen situations where the poorer partner loses out while the richer one manages to claw at the poorer partner's assets, because the BFA is drafted in a one-sided fashion.

    Sounds like your heart is in the right place freedomtrader. Best of luck working out what is best for you. :)

  • ferguscan on 19/07/2014 - 12:34
    +2

    My understanding:

    Do you already live together? Have you done so for 6 months?

    If so, the damage to her financial standing is already done. You can already take her for half.

    • sparkles on 19/07/2014 - 12:43
      +1

      LOL, "love" (and six months) conquers all - including bank account balances. Is that you, Gabi Grecko?

    • shaiguy on 22/07/2014 - 09:56

      This… my mate's EX girlfriend made him sign a pre-nup before she moved in with him… he dumped her ass when her family tried to amend it to include heaps or ridiculous clauses e.g. cheating and all this other BS - it was a step too far in the disrespect stakes and he kicked her out.

      So trick is LIVE with her for 6 months and then be willing to sign a pre-nup only effective afterwards - otherwise don't sign it and technically you may still be able to get half.

  • igreen on 19/07/2014 - 12:48
    +4

    Dude,

    U will regret getting married to this chick. It is good to be aggressive but not at the cost of rubbing peoples nose with your partner. It seems u come from different values. U will hurt your family more later if you are not ready. U will feel insecure later in ur life.

    If for whatever reason u go ahead with the marriage and have a pre-nup, make sure you add the wedding expense your parents put in will go back to your parents. Be honest with your family especially your dad about your fiance plans. That might change is views. Atleast you will be honest with your family.

    As someone above rightly said..wedding is a for a day and marriage is for a life long.

    cheers

    • hahaboy on 21/07/2014 - 00:58
      +1

      Not the real topic of discussion here, but please use full words 'You'.

      I got your message and like it, but cringed the whole way through :p

  • WT on 19/07/2014 - 13:03
    +4

    There is so much I could post, but instead of doing so im going to say one thing that no one has said so far which you need to do.

    fk man grow some balls

    • [Deactivated] on 20/07/2014 - 15:11

      The feminists cut all of them off.

      (Except mine.)

  • joeno on 19/07/2014 - 13:05
    +8

    OP Is your fiancé Korean?

    From your description and personal experience she sounds like it. Not being racist, some cultures have different values and standards of success than others.

    And OP you are an utter tool for allowing your parents to pay for the wedding. I think you are getting what you deserve.

    • scrimshaw on 19/07/2014 - 15:06
      +7

      It's possible they are both (OP and Wife) are of the same ethnic background, but of different socio-economic standing.

    • bich.light on 20/07/2014 - 01:38
      +1

      Interesting, now that you do mention it does sound awfully like Korean-culture.

      Even if OP is an utter fool for letting his parents pay for it, it doesn't mean that they should suffer with him.

    • susu abis on 20/07/2014 - 23:17

      She also sounds Singaporean, From Hong kong or Indonesian as well.

      Don't allow your parents to pay for the wedding, Take out a loan if you have to

      • hahaboy on 21/07/2014 - 01:00
        +1

        or he could be indian, bangladeshi, malaysian or any other asian culture.

  • AMLagonda on 19/07/2014 - 13:19

    No one here knows this guy or the woman involved and yet are compelled to give advice on him dumping his lady…. seems odd to me, just go with your heart and love the life you have, a prenup means nothing if your together forever.

    • mskeggs on 19/07/2014 - 22:17
      +7

      Except the obvious lack of trust at the beginning of the relationship that led to it in the first place…

  • [Deactivated] on 19/07/2014 - 13:33
    +1

    OP, are you indeed, by any chance, getting more than you bargained for when you started this thread? Can happen…

    Combined with your own misgivings, and - I'm guessing - lots of second-guessing about just how deep your love is for the girl, you certainly have been given plenty to wrestle with here.

    I wish you the best of outcomes from the wrestle. Go for some long walks, in between.

  • sillyguy on 19/07/2014 - 14:00

    @OP,

    I don't think your girl is ready to marry you yet (and I am not saying anything about running…). I can say that since my situation 3 years back was the same as yours now. My wife's family is a wealthy one with many assets and no debts (yes, hard to believe), she was making more money than I was, yet she didn't even mention just a tiny hint about any pre-nup :). We paid for our wedding (not a big big one but good enough to make both families happy), even shared the cost of the jewelries, since then we've been living happily with no money issue ever.

    I'm NOT trying to brag about how lucky I am, but just want to share a true story so that you can consider your situation and make the right decision. Good luck :)

  • Diji1 on 19/07/2014 - 14:12

    As someone who has no experience at all with marriage or pre-nuptials making me completely unqualified to give you advice my advice is signing one sounds like a good idea to me.

    Is it just me or … I'm used to seeing threads roundly encouraging men to get their partners to sign pre-nups and it seems A-OK in that case. But now it isn't when it's a woman?

    But another thing is … I'm basically a socially unfashionable dinosaur male with some of my viewpoints for what it's worth. I would find it pretty tough to have a partner who has significantly more wealth than me. The reason is all about power dynamics and that she is dominant in your relationship because money defines how you live and what you can do - your options. There is only one side of a relationship like this that I want to be on and it's not where you are.

    In my humble opinion most people are playing a social game when they insist that money isn't "important" to them for a number of reasons (one of which is appearing crass, another is deflecting ill feelings from people that do not have what you do - there are many). I believe that you can think of money as a sort of cog that everything else revolves around (well actually it's power and group status but money is a way we express this in our culture).

    For those thinking this cannot apply to them take a look at your life and how you think it's gone before and it will go as you see it and most of you are going to find you spend more than 50% of your life doing something to earn money. There will be nothing else that you spent such a large portion of time on. Certainly a job and a career have other benefits but ask yourself: would you be doing it if you stopped being paid?

    This isn't to say you can't make it work but I would find it pretty hard to make it work especially as she is apparently already exercising these dynamics I mentioned by "rubbing your face in it" as you put it. I suspect this can only get a lot worse for you although you gotta make up your own mind of course.

    • hahaboy on 21/07/2014 - 01:04

      "Is it just me or … I'm used to seeing threads roundly encouraging men to get their partners to sign pre-nups and it seems A-OK in that case. But now it isn't when it's a woman?"

      That part is just you. I haven't seen any advice about pre-nups here.

  • andyken on 19/07/2014 - 15:01
    +1

    Prenup should be banned. if you do not believe in your partner to be yours forever, do not marry her/him. why you marry when you think about divorce before you even together? just not making any sense/

    • redraoh on 19/07/2014 - 15:33

      You should trust your spouse sure, but you don't control them. People who've had a wayward spouse will often say they were blindsided when they found out. It's happened to me. I didn't lose anything financially over it, but it was a great lesson learned about people.

    • Charybdia on 20/07/2014 - 13:05

      Prenups save time and cost later on when it comes to a property dispute. Would you rather pay $1,000 to get a prenup and have minimal trouble when it comes to property and divorce later on? Or pay $5,000 (and that is just the minimum starting cost) to negotiate settlement or begin court proceedings further down the track?

      • [Deactivated] on 20/07/2014 - 15:18

        Most people don't realise most anything can (and is) easily contested. Even if it stands up in court AT THE END, you can still lose 10's of thousands and months fighting, simply because someone else decided to take you to court over it. Even "secure" wills where it's obvious there's no chance the adversary party will get anything, they still have the right to go to court. And you have no choice but to spend money on lawyers defending that will, so you don't lose the lot - which, if you don't get through the proceedings fast enough - you still can.

  • This Guy on 19/07/2014 - 15:32
    +7

    You need to rethink this.

    If the best things you can say about her to strangers would be insults to her face, then you a) don't love her, b) don't respect her and c) are too young and dumb to get out, so make sure she pays for the wedding, because it won't last a year.

    If you truly hate you parent's let them pay, but if you can make it a loan in your misses’ name, even better.

    Serious. RUN. You both are too immature for marriage.

  • Candour on 19/07/2014 - 16:16
    +1

    if you want a simple solution
    just keep separate accounts for everything
    share costs for everything in proportion of use or contribution and make this clear.
    impute interest if you contribute different amounts.

    when you separate you will have records to split things according to who put in how much.
    sounds crass
    it is crass.

    but that is where a pre nup will take you down

    is this love or a financial transaction?
    strange customs which do not sit well in a secular society

    • lplau on 19/07/2014 - 16:29

      There has been cases where even though it is in separate accounts the other party can argue that they have rights to some of that money due to their "emotional support" that they have given you which allowed you to earn that money.

      Sadly in Australia the laws in regards to Pre-nups aren't as refined as in the US.
      Pre-nups in Australia aren't 100% since it isn't embedded into our law, they are just considered by the judge e.g. as supporting evidence not an true agreement.

      Where as in US Pre-nups work differently, they are basically a blood contract, what is written is written, it very closely signifies a type of Will. No back doors.

      Also legally speaking, you may already be in a "married" relationship already, as Australia gives the same rights to De Facto Relationships as a married one. So if you have been living together for i think more than 1.5 or 2 yrs then you are already considered a married couple in the eyes of the government.

      • Diji1 on 19/07/2014 - 22:19

        As I understand it (which granted could be completely wrong given I'm just a layman) the rights to assets just comes from the fact that you are considered a joint entity when you are married or long term de-facto.

    • hahaboy on 21/07/2014 - 01:07

      don't think the pre-nup is the main issue on this thread anymore. The issue is coming out that the two people in the relationship have different values, the OP is questioning his relationship already, and the whole ordeal is detrimental to his parents' assets.

  • gevidian on 19/07/2014 - 16:57
    +4

    Marriage is a relationship between two families whether you see it that way or not. If one family gives up everything material they own just to be "accepted" in the other's social class when will this end? The goal post is forever going to change depending on how much money is in question- in situations like this which are unbalanced to start with, there will be a power struggle in the not so distant future. Your parents may have grandkids but they might have a worried/unhappy son, a challenging relationship with their son's wife and maybe not even get to see the grandkids if they do not measure up to the standards that money sets.
    Most of us attract what we think we are "worth", if this relationship sounds right to you and rings true to your values and who you are as a person,then go for it. Once you make an informed decision, you will have to find the strength to deal with the consequences like everyone else.

  • nekro on 19/07/2014 - 17:18
    +2

    This relationship isnt going to end well.. Run now while you can

  • mranderson978 on 19/07/2014 - 17:37
    +3

    Don't bother with a prenup. Exit relationship.

    A marriage covenant is for life. Anyone who asks for a prenup obvious doesn't feel that way, so their marriage vows are meaningless. (What part of "until death do us part" don't they understand?)

    • xyron on 19/07/2014 - 17:41
      +1

      While I admire the sentiment, I do not think that is how marriage works in the Western world anymore (and I certainly don't think this is a bad thing).

      Women and men are more independent of each other today than they ever were. It is such an archaic view to think that a woman and man would seriously consider themselves bound to each other for life. Tastes and views change. If the relationship lasts forever that is wonderful, and the parties to marriage should do everything they can to ensure such an outcome, but they need to be realistic as well.

      • mranderson978 on 20/07/2014 - 01:01
        +2

        If that's the way a couple feels, then why bother signing a covenant? Nobody is forcing them to sign it - especially in "the Western world anymore" where defacto relationships are as common as dirt.

        Leave the archaic contract for those who actually want it. If marriage isn't for you, don't do it.

      • [Deactivated] on 20/07/2014 - 15:24
        +2

        That view (it's archaic to be interdependant and bound to someone for life) is exactly why so many marriages fail, wives get custody of children, men are sent into poverty in child support, and most horrific of all - lawyers buy a new BMW anually.

  • [Deactivated] on 19/07/2014 - 18:36

    Sorry but I just can't get past the:

    She has more assets and like to rub my nose in it when she can……

    A relationship isn't built on rubbing ones nose in it.

    really if she is like that then she needs to wake up.

    You need to not go with marriage with her as it will cause you stress and a lot more problems down track, now I'm taking a punt that kids with her will be a nightmare or never happen at all.

    go find someone who wants to be with you for who you are and not what you have…. Also to not rub your nose in it.

  • saine on 19/07/2014 - 19:01
    +7

    You won't need a prenup when she eventually reads your comments on this thread. Problem solved.

  • maybeamacy on 19/07/2014 - 19:33
    +2

    When a rich old man comes along and gives her $10 mill she'll be leaving your broke ass. Call it off now </3

  • Kempe on 19/07/2014 - 21:02
    +5

    To the op

    RUN JUST RUN

  • Kjjd on 19/07/2014 - 22:23
    +1

    All these comments have been about protecting your assets and interests. Just my small input. Have you gone for premarital counseling? It sounds like you need to work through quite a few issues prior to getting married. This isn't just one day but, if you are looking at it as most people would, for life. Before you commit yourself to her, marry and have children ( they will be the one most damaged should there be a breakup), please, please go for some counseling to make sure your life goals and approaches to life are similarly aligned or at least differences are brought up and talked through. Some differences may be a just too big to swallow and one or both of you will end up with resentment and bitterness.

  • dbun1 on 19/07/2014 - 22:38
    +3

    This marriage just sounds like a winner from the start

  • tikei on 19/07/2014 - 23:04
    +3

    Op, have a look at your own responses. It's clear your heart isn't fully into the marriage. All parties will benefit if you come forward about it. Your parents wouldn't have to sell their house, your gf would be upset initially but better off in the long term when she finds someone else who holds similar values. You would get your freedom back. I bet your parents wouldn't want you to have an unhappy marriage because they want grand kids.

  • bumble bee on 19/07/2014 - 23:07
    +6

    Gawsh, I really feel for you OP. I signed up just to comment. I think a prenup should be the least of your concerns. Sounds like you come from a very conservative family where 'face' and respect are very important. You've only been together for two years and you don't seem to be in love with her or thrilled to marry her. I think it would be less damaging to your parents to say that you split with your fiancee than to say that you've divorced, not to mention, they get to keep their house. You don't need to worry so much about your parents losing face about not holding up their end of the paying for the wedding if you call off the relationship. You can find a lovely lady with the same values as you, and who shows you and your family much more respect to have your children and give your parents grand children. I'm guessing your parents would prefer you to not be miserable than to wait a little longer for grand children. I suggest you speak bluntly to your parents about your concerns, they probably feel the same way about her but don't want to tell you because they think you're in love with her. For someone who prioritises family, you really don't want to lock yourself in to a marriage and start a life with someone who doesn't care and respect you and your family.

  • Gnostikos on 19/07/2014 - 23:37
    +1

    From everything you've described, particularly the parents of the couple deliberating in private on marital affairs and your in-laws uncontrollable lust for social standing and financial security, I'm getting the sense that you and your fiance are South Asian (Indians) or possibly South-East Asian.

    Correct?

    The most unhappiest (though drawn-out) and incompatible marriages I've seen generally tend to be from that part of the world, precisely because one partner or the other surrender so much personal sovereignty and dignity to please familial and cultural expectations.

    If you need to change anything more fundamental about you or your partner before a marriage, other than your birth control plan, you have no business entertaining the notion of marriage.

    • cool kid on 19/07/2014 - 23:52
      -1

      look at the divorce rates vs western countries.

      • Gnostikos on 19/07/2014 - 23:56
        +5

        Apples and oranges. The notion of formalised divorce doesn't exist in many parts of the world and even if a provision for it does legally, it is seldom acted upon due to overwhelming cultural stigma and taboo.

        Conversely, here in Australia, family law courts damn-near encourage divorce and familial separation because it is so profitable and favourable for women.

        That skews our divorce rate due to the incidence of divorces-of-opportunity rather than divorces-of-necessity; though I will concede that women who drop you like a bag of dirt when the chips are down weren't the safest bets, though that is not entirely the fault of women themselves. It look a lot of social engineering and conditioning to get women to see men as so disposable and to see themselves as so entitled.

        Now that being said, divorce is generally the worst thing that can happen to children aside from the loss of one or both parents; psychologically, developmentally and even economically in later life, and in some cases there is cause to persevere for the sake of sparing the children a traumatic upbringing; but I think that era has well and truly gone as of 2014 and today's children, like today's adults, are so selfish, frivolous and morally rotten, that there really is little left to salvage in most cases.

        • sandsay on 20/07/2014 - 05:18

          I always laugh a little on the inside when someone says how selfish people today up. As though people were less so historically. And moral? Don't even start.

          Ah, the ignorance.

        • Gnostikos on 20/07/2014 - 15:06

          @sandsay: Judging by your views on marriage you're definitely proving my point. You instantly mentioned in your post below, the two basic factors that skew the moral compass today: the pursuit of the almighty dollar and a lack of respect for solemn commitment.

          Don't even start.

          I'll leave that to you, you're so good at half-baked pontificating.

        • [Deactivated] on 20/07/2014 - 15:27
          +1

          Conversely, here in Australia, family law courts
          damn-near encourage divorce and familial separation
          because it is so profitable and favourable for women.

          Profitable and favourable for the judges and lawyers, you mean.

        • Gnostikos on 20/07/2014 - 17:12

          @realfamilyman:

          Undoubtedly, but they don't put a gun to anyone's head and force them to divorce.

        • sandsay on 22/07/2014 - 18:23
          -3

          People have always been as bad or worse than they are today. There's just too many for me to detail(Do you even read?). Plus, I'm lazy.

          Marriage is a stupid, dated concept in my book. It encourages a man and a woman to care about their sexual partner and biological children exponentially more than everyone else. Isn't this the essence of selfishness? Prioritizing your own genepool?
          It also makes love and affection exclusive(isn't that selfish?).

          The pursuit of money(you, your ancestors) allowed you to use the word 'pontificate' while thousands of other people are starving to death and dying of treatable diseases.

      • scrimshaw on 20/07/2014 - 02:23

        I'm clearly in the wrong field then, perhaps I should go back to uni and start studying to be an attorney….

        • Gnostikos on 20/07/2014 - 14:51
          -1

          A close friend since childhood is a family lawyer and she swears by pre-nups and advocates for them to all of her friends; regardless of how well-intentioned their marriages may be, she's seen enough spontaneous break-downs and protracted legal disputes over assets to reckon that nobody can be too careful.

          It is a good 6 years of hell though but they do clean up in this day and age; the divorce rate can only go up and a divorce case is never really finished, when you look at the child support payments (so many spouses keep making up barely-child-related sh*t to pay for or inflating the costs of their child-rearing), the custody scheduling/disputes, and unequal sharing issues; the lawyers always keep coming back for more.

          Though you do need to be of a certain sociopathic leaning or have a very well-developed sense of cognitive dissonance in my opinion to keep going in to work each day and patting yourself over the shoulder for enabling flat-out worthless scum, the right to legally ruin their ex-husbands lives financially and psychologically and to condemn their children to messed up future lives themselves.

  • samthebear on 20/07/2014 - 01:30
    +8

    Op there are so many red flags that this won't end well. You should probably get out before you get married (that's why they have the 'engagement period'!)

    1. No loving, respecting and caring spouse will ever put down or insult their partner. Let alone on the basis of financial prowess!
    2. Manipulation. Really - can you not see that she's trying to manipulate you by crying (fake, fake tears I promise you) every time you try to grow some balls?
    3. You don't sound very sure you want to marry her at all - let alone love her.
    4. It sounds like your values don't align. At all.
    5. Your parents are selling their house for a wedding?! Never mind helping to set you up for your future life with your wife (eg: providing help with down payment for mortgage) - they are going to blow all that money on one day.

    OP, I hope you get out of this soon. It will hurt. It will suck. You probably won't be able to see any mutual friends any more. Your parents will probably be ashamed. You will probably never be able to go anywhere where she might be. Maybe you'll even have to leave the country.

    But you know what? Marrying her won't be the better or even the easier choice.

    You will forever be hurt by her (because she will incessantly put you down). You will forever be controlled by her. Your relationship with your parents will probably become impossibly strained, maybe even broken. Any children you have together will be awesomely broken from the toxic relationship you have with her. When (not 'if') you divorce, you will be put back years financially and emotionally because (as everyone has mentioned) Australian courts are more favourable to women and she will suck the life out of you.
    And all this for this shitty thing that's worth nothing in the grand scheme called money.

    Both scenarios suck but one scenario sucks more than the other. I hope you have the good sense (and I do hope you value yourself enough) to recognise which one is the worse option.

    But here's the flip side, maybe she's just immature and needs to grow up. Maybe in time she'll stop being mean and maybe in time you'll love her and glad that you married her. But we don't have enough time in our lives to deal with 'Maybe'. Right now is what matters and RIGHT NOW she doesn't seem to be the kind of person you are looking for. Deep in your heart you already know your answer. Don't marry her because that is what everyone is expecting you to do, everyone else isn't living your life - you are.

    /2cents

    • Son of Matrix on 12/08/2014 - 19:00

      Right now is what matters and RIGHT NOW she doesn't seem to be the kind of person you are looking for. Deep in your heart you already know your answer. Don't marry her because that is what everyone is expecting you to do, everyone else isn't living your life - you are.

      This is so true, samthebear

    • johnno07 on 20/07/2014 - 10:19

      No a prenup is not a "must". He's not disgruntled about her being richer than him - only with the fact that she holds her wealth over him.

  • cloudy on 20/07/2014 - 07:49
    +3

    Hey freedom trader, I've a read a lot of the comments before me, and I agree with all of what ozbargain has had to say in the position of the three letter word starting with R, ending with N and with the U in the middle.

    But bro, my heart goes out to you, ur stuck between two hard rocks.

    Just remember its never too late to change, be it in marriage, life, morals, anything if it's not right. And this girl doesn't sound right for you buddy. Don't kick the can down the road, coz the road will eventually end.

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