Commonwealth Bank ripping me off

I have a problem with Commonwealth Bank which I hope to get some guidance on what to do.

I have some $$ and waiting to buy a property, not much success as not able to find anything. As advised by CommBank I put my $$ in a Goalsaver account as it has good interest rate. This account has some restrictions though. You must not withdraw any $$ in the whole month and deposit minimum $200 per month to earn a bonus interest which is paid on the 1st of each month. When I first open the goalsaver account at a branch, they helped me setting up an automatic monthly transfer of $200 from my normal savings account into the Goalsaver account so I don't have to worry about it. Over 2 years later, still haven't found any propertty and $$ in this account rises to above $100K, as I put all my savings into it. One day I rang up Commbank to enquire about my credit card limit and during the conversation, a Commbank person advised me that I will not earn any interest of my Goalsaver as it's over $100K, she advised that I should split it into another Goalsaver account, so basically I now have 2 Goalsaver accounts, each has < $100K and should be getting good interest. The Commbank lady said I don't have to do anything, she would set it up and do all the work. I should see the 2nd account linked with all my other accounts (credit card, savings, etc) when I log into netbank. It sounds good and I trust the bank does the right thing.

However last week I prepared my tax and realized that the 2nd goalsaver had not earned any interest for almost a year. This is because the $200 monthly direct credit had not been made. I lost almost $3K of interest. Panic sets in I rang them up explaining the situation, I told them that I don't remember when the 2nd Goalsaver account was created (almost 2 years after the 1st Goalsaver account) I was told of this $200 monthly deposit, they would need to revisit the recorded conversation. However the lady told me thathey might not have the conversation since it's like a year ago. Anyway she said since I already had the GoalSaver account I should know the rule. But seriously I don't remember the rule as it was all automated.

Is this a ACCC case? What can I do to make then repay?

thanks in advance everyone.

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Comments

  • +10

    wow $100k im surely poor :(

    • +36

      OP, this is mostly part of your negligence as you did not bother checking if the transfers have been made every month. At the very least, you should've checked the first month and if the problem was discovered, I'm sure it would've been easily rectified. Besides that, you should be checking your account balances regularly anyway.

      • +13

        Why the hell is the this a reply to the 1st comment?

      • +1

        "Davo93" To get it up there as it should be the first thing the OP reads.. OMG i check my bank accounts every second day like a hawk .. if even $1 is missing i go banana's .. this guy doesn't give a crap about his money why should the bank!

        • Yeah. With the advent of the smart phone and easy to enter 4 digit passcode, I check my bank accounts every night before I sleep. Actually I check em mutiple times through out the day.

          if OP it 'too busy' or 'not time' it's just negligence.

        • Nope it's for attention seeking purposes

    • more like $170k. He has one 100k account and a second between 0-100k. Guessing about 70k if hes saying he missed out on about 3k interest off it.

      • Neither account should have 100k in it. I get the impression they distributed the funds so that neither account is maxed, and therefore he could claim the bonus interest on both accounts. He'd be missing out on the interest of the second, but presumably he's getting the full interest rate on the first.

  • +31

    I"m pretty sure you misunderstood them as YOU would have to do the $200 transfer each month, not them

  • yes I probably did set up the auto transfer for the 1st account but that was like 4 years ago.

    • +4

      If you were looking for a property 4 or so years ago, you should've really put it in the First Home Savers Account, where you would've got alot more interest than Commbank

      However, they have now abolished that

      • Taxed at only 15% too not the highest tax rate as bank interest is taxed on.

      • Do you know if you can simply take out your money from that account now? or do you have to still have it locked away for a property purchase?

        • Nope you have to use it on a property or if not it has to contributed into your super fund.

          https://www.moneysmart.gov.au/managing-your-money/banking/sa…

        • +1

          No, you can take it out and use it as a normal savings account for whatever you want next year.

          You do not have to use it for a property or put it into your super.

        • @abc: Do i have to take any action so it doesn't roll into super automatically? I don't want that accidentally happening, cause I missed some T&Cs.

          I can't find any information on that on the link.

          Thanks for replying :)

        • @abc: Do i have to take any action so it doesn't roll into super automatically? I don't want that accidentally happening, cause I missed some T&Cs.

          I can't find any information on that on the link.

          Thanks for replying :)

      • its not so hard to find a property. what u want is called a 'deal', and how u define that. Google search some property services like Shadforth Australia, or estate agents like Ray white.

  • +51

    Common sense would have been to check your accounts at least once every now and then. They didn't rip you off, you knew the requirement of depositing $200 a month, if you didn't setup a transfer to the 2nd account then that's your own fault. If I stood to lose $3k in interest id check that kinda stuff.
    Don't cry foul because you were lazy.

    • +18

      I agree, OP should be responsible with his/her bank finances.

    • +2

      Agreed. Never trust the bank. Always follow up on their promises. Best to get any promises or instructions on their letterhead. I have had to chase up on credits, much easier to prove with paperwork rather than just your word against theirs.

    • Your responsible total. i would buy now if want to live in syd as your be get price out of market.

  • +5

    You probably have missed the boat by investing it @ goalsaver.. The price of Sydney property has been rising up to 15%/pa over the last 2-3 years.. And you should educate yourself about the role of ACCC

  • Yeah it's the financial ombudsman,not ACCC.

  • +1

    If you really wanted to maximise, you would do it MANUALLY on the first day of each month. Unless you have direct debits set up, you should have pretty much nil in your transaction account and money in a CBA Netbank Saver ready for use and CBA Goalsaver for saving. Use a no fee 55 day interest free credit card (sounds like you could get a decent limit), let the equivalent money sit in your Netbank Saver to garnish 2.5%pa for your transactions in the interest free period. There are also ways to have access to your Goalsaver money as well and still get the 3.99% bonus interest but it's a bit of a hassle and requires diligence.

    But no, CBA did nothing wrong, they looked out for you and told you that your account was maxed and offered you an alternative. They could have been really dodgy and just left you with the one Goalsaver until YOU asked THEM about it.

  • Probably not all the fact are listed. But I'd say you have reasonable grounds to complain.
    The bank would have to save the recorded conversations for 7 years as they do with statements, etc… for this very reason.

    Hopefully you have the name of the CBA advisor whose guidance you followed. The advice given to you was to duplicate the existing account to benefit financially.
    You have missed out on the benefit ($3K) because a small component wasn't duplicated i.e. the auto deposit.
    I'm not familiar with the particular account but wouldn't you have been contributing 2x $200 per month - did you not notice only 1x $200 was being transferred?
    If the $200 transfer/s come from another CBA account, then they may have been able to set it up for you. If it comes from an external source, then you would have had to set it up yourself and the onus would be on you.

    Commbank are defending multiple "bad advice" complaints currently.
    If you A) pester them as they don't want any bad publicity and B) threaten to move your money out, as cash/term deposits growth is declining, they may make a deal with you.

    Only you know the full story but if you feel you've been cheated, then go for it. But if you know you could have done more, then cop it sweet.

    • +2

      It's not CBA's problem. The girl did the right thing in advising OP to split his account into 2 to "cheat" the Goalsaver system, whereas if you have 100k +, you don't gain interest. When he agreed to open up the 2nd goalsaver, he would of had to physically tell them to setup an auto-transfer to this new account as well as his original.

      The inverse of them doing it without his knowledge, is OP posting on OzBargain saying CBA were moving his money without his consent and therefore CBA would be in deep shit.

      Unfortunately i think negligence is the issue in this case.

      Block-quote Hopefully you have the name of the CBA advisor whose guidance you followed.

      Will all transactions, i believe CBA advisors have to note on your record who spoke to you and what about, so you should be able to backtrack there

      also, how did you come to a $3k loss of interest? if you had $100k, split into 2 accounts of $50k and only 1 account wasn't earning interest, thats impossible

    • +1

      All the terms and conditions are listed everywhere, website, brochures etc. Whether you understand them is another matter. If you're not sure on anything with any organisation, just say "can you explain that to me again ?" and "what do I need to do ?". They get paid by the hour anyway.

      • They get paid by the hour anyway.

        Pretty sure it's salary package. But yes, OP can ask someone for help.

    • +1

      Pretty sure there's terms and conditions when I signed up. You don't have to be savvy, but you do need to be aware of the product. If u hav over 100k in savings, it's in your best interest (pun intended) to move to a better savings account.
      From memory, the goalsaver account only offers a good (but not decent) interest rate if the amount is less than 100k. Once its over 100k, u dont get much interest, even with your monthly deposits. It happened to me when I logged in to netbank. I noticed I wasnt getting the correct interest on 100k, so I shifted all the money to another savings account.
      Now the question is why did they offer the second Goalsaver account? Even if you continue to deposit $200 in your first Goalsaver account, u would still not earn much interest, since the account is above 100k…
      CBA didnt rip u off. It's their product. But its ur decision to choose a better product elsewhere, and read the termns and conditions.

    • +2

      I'm not trying to be rude, but are you actually serious?

      • +1

        Sadly, I think he/she is being serious

    • you should visit a financial planner. they can help you, for a fee. but worth it.

    • I think you're taking it a bit far if you are arguing the terms and conditions weren't apparent to you. You already had the exact same account open, you simply opened up a second account of the same type. The PDS was available to you at any time, and in all likelihood was offered to you when you set up the first account. If you did it in a branch there would have been a brochure on the wall too.

      You were aware of the $200 deposit requirement which is what is at issue here, you just failed to check that the automated transfers had been implemented.

  • -4

    @MITM, I don't think that CBA has cheated on me, I think it is probably a mistake. On my own, agreed I should have spotted this earlier. But never that good with finance, tend to trust big organizations to do the right thing. The $200 auto transfer is from another CBA account. The staff at branch created for me when the 1st goalsaver account was opened quite a while back.

    • +18

      I don't think that CBA has cheated on me, I think it is probably a mistake.

      You did read the subject of this post right?
      "Commonwealth Bank ripping me off"

    • "But never that good with finance, tend to trust big organizations to do the right thing."

      You are very naive.

      Do you think companies, especially big ones, want to help you (or any other random) at their expense?

      Here's a tip: Look out for yourself, no one will do it for you.

  • +3

    it takes about 30 seconds to log into online banking and quickly scan your accounts.

    it's your own fault that you didn't check to see the automatic transfer going through each month. you knew from your first goalsaver account that the terms were pretty straight forward, it's up to you to follow through with those same conditions on the second account once it was opened.

    it's not the banks responsibility to set up and automatic transfer, even if a rep said they'd help you connect it. in the end you need to follow through and make sure it's set up.

    even the thought that you want them to repay for your lack of awareness is annoying.

    loving the title name btw, grabbed my attention for sure

    • OP account balances must have been huge.

      He doesn't even notice if $200 is being transferred out of his transaction account.

      Whats $3000 if you have $300million OP?

  • You can set an auto transfer (with frequency) online. And you can withdraw once but you need to deposit that amount + $200 back.

    Look for a better option in terms of savings…

  • +1

    Forget it and move on, count it as a lesson learned in hard way

  • +1

    I don't get it , you pay tax on your interest. How can you not have noticed no interest for 2 years?
    Regardless a tip since your over 100k on goalsaver

    Have the Second Acc ready now and if you ever need cash just keep one nil and one under 100k and the rest in another bank.
    I just transfer the money to the second account whenever I need to make an withdraw to buy shares.

    Allows me to keep the 4% interest or whatever that month.

  • You didn't check your savings account for a whole year and why didn't you read the terms and conditions? I bet it said that any balances over $100k won't earn you interest?

  • +1

    Commonwealth Bank ripping me off!!

    Now there's a surprise!

  • +1

    move along.. nothing to see here…

  • +2

    Commonwealth Bank is not at fault here. It is your responsibility to set up your own automatic money transfer. how was the Commbank lady supposed to know that they set up the automated payment and not you? They helped you set it up when you first signed up but that will require your approval and knowledge to do so. The banks can provide advise but you will still need to manage your own money.

    • -4

      can you ask to escalate your claim to the branch manager and meanwhile look for an alternative who can offer you a better service. let the branch manager know you intend to change banks if its not resolved

      imo commonwealth are the worst.

    • I suggest you write to the CBA complaints area, rather than phone them up. Put everything in writing from now on. (If you ring, someone will just argue you down with rubbish like "your duty to know the T/Cs"

      As other posters have said, you should have been all knowing about the account and next weeks lotto numbers as well.

      However the points are.

      You are a CBA ( Bank Of The Year no less) customer with a large deposit held with them and also the intention to borrow from them in the future.

      Whilst, you did not meet the conditions of that account, the paying of $200 a month compared to $100k held is miniscule. It would seem quite unjust that you receive No Interest at all.

      It seems they have opened an accounts (Quota met) with no real concern if the regular deposit has been set up. There has certainly been no concern by the CBA that you are not getting interest.

      At Commonwealth Bank, we put our customers at the centre of everything we do. We also accept that sometimes we can
      get things wrong, and when this happens we're determined to make them right again.

      Hold them to this, ask in your letter that your case be reviewed by Senior Management

      • to Baysew, just in regards to 2nd part of your post

        " It would seem quite unjust that you receive No Interest at all."
        "It seems they have opened an accounts (Quota met) with no real concern if the regular deposit has been set up. There has certainly been no concern by the CBA that you are not getting interest."

        The above is NO fault of the bank. He (LPH) knew how the account worked when he set it up (eg. higher rate, no withdrawal, $200 min for bonus interest etc).

      • rubbish like "your duty to know the T/Cs"

        Yes. What utter nonsense to know the terms of the account in which you have $100,000 held.

    • +18

      you keep going on about the T&Cs etc. But you already had the same account right? So you would be aware of the T&Cs already. Why do they need to be read out again?

      I am glad they immediately discarded your request and I hope your "claim" is unsuccessful.

      Not that I like banks or anything (hate them as much as anyone), but I rather they proceed with legitimate and reasonable claims and not those such as yours.

      For you to not notice if a second $200 direct debit had not been occurring out of your everyday account is your concern.

  • -4

    Thank you Baysew. I was thinking the same, writing it down so there are written records. When I rang up last week, I managed to talk to a lady who was quite empathetic, she said the person who created the Goalsaver account on the phone's name was Emily and she will forward the case to her team, however she might have left as it's been a year (sounds like their staff t/o is high), and someone would get back to me in a couple of days. However it's been a week and I heard nothing so I rang back yesterday. This time I met a person who refused to even consider reviewing the case as she simply said I did not fulfil the conditions of the product, full stop. She also said there is absolutely no track record of the case ever raised. I went to the bank yesterday, requesting to close down the account and the branch staff said i shouldn't close down the account as then I would have no chance of recovering any of the interest if it's closed. So I'm kinda stuffed, can't move on and yet waiting for something that might not be resolved. I will write to a letter today.

    • Let us know how it all goes in the end. Interested to see how it pans out and what CBA eventually do.

    • Keep the accounts open, for now. ( Set up properly !)
      It gives you leverage in the negotiation.

      Also notice what the branch said

      I would have no chance of recovering any of the interest if it's closed.

      A real glimmer of hope there.

    • +14

      So basically anyone who disagrees with you should shut up? Are you expecting everyone to gang up on cba with you and kiss your arse?

      Here's another "advise" for you:

      I am actually in corporates and I do find this advice very useful to progress in my career and also in my personal life.

      No one cares, this is a forum on the internet.

    • +3

      try to learn to use the reply button, to make it easier for the readers to know who are you replying to

    • +2

      I think mick123 was pretty polite in his response and gave sound advice just like many in this forum.

      A lot of people are just saying you made a mistake on this one and offering tips on how to avoid it in the future. You'd probably shouldn't ignore them.

    • +6

      What is "corporates"?

      • +1

        I think it is a type of pajama.

    • +9

      my mum used to say if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything

      And my mum taught me to take responsibility for my own personal matters rather than offload that responsibility to someone else and try to blame them when things go wrong.

      In any case, his comment wasn't even offensive. You failed to take responsibility for your personal finances and it is only fair that you cop the consequences.

  • +2

    CBA, like other big banks, likes to set up various monthly requirements and tricks designed to make users stumble and not meet them. For example, a friend said he has a high interest savings account that only allows ONE withdrawal per month. Make two? Zero interest paid for the entire month. I pointed out UBank has a higher interest rate and he can move money back and forth to his heart's desire.

    Going back a few more years, I recall when CBA often had interest rate specials on term deposits. It worked like this: lots of terms like 30 day, 90 day, 180 day, 270 day, 300 day, etc, with only one (chosen seemingly at random) having a high rate. The rest were well below inflation. Then, when the TD came due it was automatically renewed by default, but this time the 'special' interest rate moved to a different term. Therefore if the user wasn't checking their account they would be automatically moved from, say, a 4% TD for 270 days, to a 2% TD for another 270. Locked in. Party time for the CBA.

    As always with banks, buyer beware. Check the T&C, follow the rules, play the banks at their own game.

    • +2

      I don't see how fairly standard terms and conditions are "tricks". They're just features of the product. You choose whether to take on the product or not, and if you choose to do so, it is your responsibility to understand the conditions. Do the banks make it harder to get the highest return by utilising certain conditions? Absolutely. Are they generally deceptive about it or try to hide the terms and conditions from you? No.

      • Agree with Cluster. Have been their customer for 30 years!! The way they operate is that anything that requires payment from yourself, they are quick to squeeze, and deduct and chase up diligently. Anything that involves payment to you, or a possible return/ refund/reduction in fees/charges due to changed circumstances, they will not initiate, you be alert and chase them for it. They are not intentionally deceptive but all the same not proactive when it comes to saving YOU money! But very proactive where it involves costs to you.

  • +1

    Whatever the outcome, I strongly urge you not to take a loan with CBA.

  • +4

    Err your fault. Why are you complaining? If CBA actually hears your complaint let me know cause if I was them I'd just ignore you. Didn't deposit $200 end of story. Didn't check your account for over a year? Good on you.

  • +1

    I think it is your fault. I've been using goal saver and I do a manual transfer of $200 a month for both my accounts. It is your responsibility to learn more about the account when setting up and your responsibility to check your account at least once a month.

  • A professional would have made sure to get $50 from opening a Goal Saver Account

    https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/104144

    And also an extra $150 for opening other accounts with CBA
    https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/107429
    https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/54181

    Not to mention the numerous CBA credit card cashbacks and bonus credit offers ;-)

  • It is always left to the investor to look out for all the fine writing, the same with term deposits. If you ignore the renewal notice they just renew on the same terms and 9/10 times the interest rate has fallen. In OP's case, I really think the lady who said she would 'take care of everything' has to be accountable for 'not taking care of everything'. Taking care of everything would presume she alerts him at least to sign the direct debit forms (could have posted to him or asked him to walk into a branch) or she should have asked him how he wanted the deposits made, and from then on it was up to him. Since his first Goalsaver was automatically direct debited, surely the bank should ask what about your second, you want to authorise the same? It's part of customer service, considering the amount was not altogether a puny thing. I stopped applying online and over the phone etc..I find it's more trouble than worth the time saved, always walk into the bank and personally see the officer so everything is done correctly/signs formed etc. If OP had walked into a bank, I think would have been asked about signing authority forms for direct debit. When you go in person,the person who served you (make a note of their name)is held accountable. Anything goes amiss, if they cannot justify, the bank will action. BTW, understand that over the phone, the customer service officers can be very new recruits who don't tell you everything cos they are not yet experienced. They make mistakes too, happened to me before where they tabulated wrong figures. Happens with ATO hotline, happens with Immigration and Passport Dept, Aust Post etc…everywhere. Everyone is on a learning curve and bound to divulge wrong info and you have to be aware and do your own research. I hope you can some compensation because $3K is not a nice amount to lose out on.

  • +4

    What sort of ozbargainer puts 100k in a CBA goalsaver for crying out loud? USaver beats it on every criterion.

    • Most criterion, CBA has higher rate right now of 4.00% P.A

  • can't wait for the next ozbargain thread

    "CBA opened a goalsaver account for me and initiated a monthly $200 credit from another of my CBA accounts without my permission! that other account is now in overdraft. why did they do this?"

  • I always check my bank accounts every week even though I expect nothing to come or go. You should have done that too op.

  • Sounds like the bank said they would set up the 2nd Goalsaver, they did, but then you never added the $200 per month ontop, so youre fault. And you never checked for 2 years or so, your negligence.

    • Hope you have put in $400 this month.
      Equals $4800 per year.
      Wonder which account you did not notice it was not coming out of?

  • so with 100k or more, where would you guys put it?

    • Give it to me and I'll put it in for u :P.
      Most ozbargainers use ubank

  • -1

    NAB reward saver account seems best place to me.

  • -2

    or if you have a relationship manager at Westpac you will get around 3.8% on a 4 month or 7 month term deposit.

  • -4

    Should have bought a house 4 years ago.

    Prices have doubled since then.

  • +2

    Is this a joke? It's your fault, not theirs. Your responsibility to check, not leave the account for two years and not check it. Costly mistake.

    Feel sorry for the person that has to hear you out. They'll probably laugh at you. Ridiculous.

  • -1

    commbank ripping customers?
    commbank not acting in the best interest of their customers?
    who'd thunk it?

    • Commbank or any bank do exactly the same thing. They are all out to make money. If you were a business you'd do the same thing if you were entitled to do so.

      Anyways in this case it is the OP's fault, he is trying to ask Ozb how to weasel his way into getting commbank to admit to the OP's mistake. lol.

      You should have noticed that you weren't getting any interest. They don't pay you at the end of the year, they pay you monthly.

      Seriously, NEVER trust a bank, they are only good at holding your money, and holding it as long as possible.
      Always get hard evidence, emails, written letters, never just assume they have phone recordings.

      I had a similar thing happen to me, one of the banks set up my home loan incorrectly, i told them i want a 100% offset account and they didn't set one up for me. So I emailed them making sure it was 100% offset and they replied saying yes. So I assumed all is good. However 1yr later I realize that it wasn't a offset and lost a whole heap of money. Called them with all my evidence and they said sorry and gave my money back.

  • -3

    lot of jealous comment hahaha

    • +3

      Not really jealous, more like the OP is like "oh crap i screwed up, maybe Ozb can help me find a way to gouge the banks and get them to admit to my mistake" lol.

    • -1

      This comment makes no sense

  • +1

    With $100K in the bank, I would be watching my balance like a hawk just to make sure they're not ripping me off with the interest payments. You'd think that if you were "reviewing your credit card statements for dodgy payments" you'd also be glancing over your savings at the same time. A couple of hundred bucks every month is nothing to scoff at… Obviously you had other priorities in your life.

    • +2

      Cause OP's parents give him wads of pocket money ( he mentioned it somewhere above)

    • Yeah, it would take me a while to earn that amount of money, so I'd be overprotective of it/watching it crazily.

  • Your a FOOL, the interest, even with the 'BONUS' is not even keeping up with inflation! $100k, $3k interest, the buying power for property would have gone up 10+% (more in some locations) - its very bad economics!!!

    • +3

      Your a FOOL

      You're

      its very bad economics!!!

      it's

    • +2

      Typical Asset Rich but Cash Poor ?
      I have many friends like that. Brag they own 2-3 investment properties, owe massively on them, don't even own them!
      But when it comes to forking out cash for a little bit here and there, they whinge and gripe and have no cash, not even for a rainy day. Try and act 'poor' for Centrelink benefits. Asset rich, cash poor. I feel sorry for them cos they lose face and end of the day, they don't get to enjoy life, oh yes, maybe when they sell up years later but by then they are so old and tired, their kids get all the benefits, not them! Why oh why let everything fall into the laps of your benefactors when you should be enjoying it, it's your hard earned money. It also breeds a generation of kids who expect to inherit the properties from Daddy instead of earn it like us.

      • From my experience. I have a lot of rich and poor friends so I know.
        It is usually the rich ones pretend they are poor so nobody hounds their money. They are scared people will know and then proceed with stealing it from them. Or stabbing them in the back.

        Where as the poor ones will pretend to be rich, they are the ones usually flaunting the money.

        Property Prices is a vicious cycle but will end up being higher and higher, remember we only have limited amount of land. Unless we manage to create some Quantum space which allows us to create big spaces inside the size of a room, you have no way to create new land.

        It will go up and down, however the overall trending is that properties will go up more than it goes down, therefore overall if you look at it in the long run, you will notice that the prices will continue to go up.

        I have friends who bought their houses around 15yrs ago for around 150k, now they can easily sell them for 800k+.
        If you tell me that the property will bust and that house will drop down to 150k, you are REALLY dreaming. lol.

        • +1

          Then explain to me why Japan house prices has gone down repeatedly since 1991. They don't create more land there too.

        • @tomleonhart:

          Not sure if this is completely relevant, but isn't Japans population decreasing? No ones having babies and starting a family, thus impacts the demand of houses?

        • @tomleonhart: Deflating bubble economy. The Jap stockmarket has never recovered to the level it reached in Aug 1989 either. Demographic factors are a secondary reason.

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