I am in a dilemma. Should I ask her to pay up?

[Deactivated] on 24/12/2014 - 06:13
Last edited 24/12/2014 - 06:36

Hi ozbargainers

We own a hair salon. Long story short, we do people's hair for weddings. Recently,one of my employee's daughter got married. So we did bride's hair , bridesmaids' hair, groom's hair , best men's hair all in one day. We tried to help out. My employee said she will foot the entire bill which total about $900 but will only be able to do so after Xmas when she is expecting to run into some money. I agreed.
Now comes the twist, 2 days ago I heard the tragic news that the bride and groom got into car accident and passed away while honeymooning overseas.

Now I am facing the dilemma, morally I think I should just write off the debt but on the other hand a debt is a debt, I delivered the service , my employee should pay up . Should I wait a little longer in new year till everything settles down , then bring up the debt issue?
I am also facing the fact that I will have to pay her some compassionate leaves which will total about $300. And her Xmas bonus this year is another $250.

What would you do?

General Discussion

Comments

  • Danthemanz on 25/12/2014 - 18:24
    +2

    Im sorry, really dont think you can ask.
    If she offers, then you cane take it, otherwise let it go.
    Your loss is nothing in the scheme of things.

  • Savvymum on 25/12/2014 - 19:45
    +10

    Is this what you are really worrying about on Christmas day of all days? Have a heart or learn to have some compassion and let the debt go. Even if you can't see why this may be a reasonable thing to do the reality is a person would have to be particularly callous to chase $900 from an employee WHOSE DAUGHTER HAS JUST DIED! honestly I'm speechless that a person would even be concerned about this. Feel free to share your business name so I can make sure never to come that way

    • scrimshaw on 25/12/2014 - 20:49
      +1

      I don't blame the OP. He made a very big gamble when he agreed to the employer taking a loan and paying it back after the christmas break. And this gamble backfired in probably the worst way possible, and there is a possibility that bill may never be paid.

      Though I will say it's probably tactless to mention the debt right now as a person is mourning, they might just snap and leave you which will no doubt be an even greater cost to the business.

      My opinion though, is to let a week or two pass and then talk (negotiate) with her about footing the bill but at say, a greater discount. Say instead of $900 let her pay $450 and let it count as paying for the wages/cost of goods sold, rather than profiting from it.

      • cheng2008 on 26/12/2014 - 13:56
        +1

        OP did say it cost $200 in time and labour, so I'd say charge cost price as a gesture of goodwill, if he can't find himself generous enough to waive the fee.

  • Chef-Johnson on 25/12/2014 - 21:40
    +11

    Plain and simple this person is a scumbag. End of story.

  • worlds_most_wanted on 25/12/2014 - 23:56
    +2

    Why on earth would you even consider asking for the $900? If the story is true which you would have to assume unless you prove otherwise in future, there shouldn't even be a doubt in the matter.
    People want to compare a $900 set back to a loss of life?
    I think most here need to get a life.. A life with morals & ethics.

  • kokaln4e on 25/12/2014 - 23:57

    It seems like fake but still possible, can you ask her when the funeral is going to be and see her reaction, if its fishy ask to go..

  • adamren on 26/12/2014 - 00:06
    -1

    Wow, it's amazing how when it's discovered OP is claimed to be worth $1.5mn that the principle of paying back a debt goes out the window. So what. The onus is on the debtor here. Focus. Stop excusing the debtor just because the creditor doesn't really need the money, that's so far beside the point it's hilarious. Stupid logic.

  • deanylev on 26/12/2014 - 01:07

    Personally if it were me, I wouldn't take the money even if she offers. I understand she's an employee, not a friend, but it's one less thing for her to deal with. Consider it good karma. Unless I was really struggling for money, I wouldn't even consider taking it. I would feel too bad.

  • momov3 on 26/12/2014 - 02:14
    +2

    If you ask me, the posts OP has posted are kinda strange. What person reveals to everyone what he puts in his wallet and wants to know what you put in yours? Aren't there more relevant things to discuss on OzBargain, I'm surprised that query even got approved, I'm surprised some good people were willing to reply. It sounded like he/she was bragging while itemising all the classy cards he/she had in the wallet pockets. I just feel it's so bizarre. I'm playing cautious now and not in the loop anymore.

  • Shwayne on 26/12/2014 - 03:28
    +1

    The question is not whether or not you should reclaim the money owed to you, but how you should reclaim the money owed to you.

    Obviously it's a sensitive topic and it's not going to be easy, it's probably best to give the employee time to come to terms with the loss etc.

    Do not forget that if debt was never incurred, that you would not be in this situation. Therefore you are fully and completely within your rights to reclaim any costs you would normally have applied when offering your services.

    You should not be at a double disadvantage when issuing debt to others.

  • YOTR on 26/12/2014 - 07:56

    I would send in the debt collectors tomorrow. Maybe get them to beat her up a bit.

    Idiotic OP.

    • secondstory on 28/12/2014 - 18:33
      -1

      @OP, I wouldn't recommend this.

  • ELCHEAP0 on 26/12/2014 - 08:06
    +1

    Expunge the debt.
    Sure it's money, but have a heart.
    At most, get employee to work a day unpaid to repay the dept in part, but only after it settles down.

  • luckytrio on 26/12/2014 - 08:17
    +5

    My grandmother died and I took 2 days of compassionate leave and I had to provide 'proof' via the newspaper advertisement or the funeral brochure, which I did and I was not upset at being required to do so as the admin person was very kind, perhaps the same could be asked?

    • Iceyhusky on 26/12/2014 - 18:07
      +1

      Yes, when my grandma passed away I also had to provide proof in the form of a death certificate as well as documents to prove she was my grandma (birth cert for my mum and myself). Otherwise they wouldn't pay my compassionate leave

    • tyler.durden on 26/12/2014 - 10:35

      To pose such a question

      shows that
      this guy has no heart…

      He is the embodiment of Ebenezer Scrooge

      • sonique on 26/12/2014 - 12:08
        +1

        Agree. What a Scrooge. OP is net worth $1.5M according to his other post and he can't write off $900 for compassion reason especially around XMAS too. What is this world coming to.

        • tyler.durden on 26/12/2014 - 15:01
          +1

          allegedly 1.5M

          this the internet, anyone can make up any bullshit net worth

        • smartazz104 on 27/12/2014 - 11:11

          Would a bank write off a loan if you lost a relative after borrowing money? Probably not. Why is this any different?

        • Ughhh on 27/12/2014 - 11:17
          +1

          @gokhanh:

          There's a reason why banks have the reputation they have, lucky for them they can survive with it. Just because big corps have no heart, doesn't mean you have to follow.

    • cheng2008 on 26/12/2014 - 13:53
      +7

      How many minus votes for hijacking a thread and turning it into your own soapbox? ;)

    • rodinthink on 29/12/2014 - 18:17
      +1

      I'm outta neg m8, stop wasting my neg

  • [Deactivated] on 26/12/2014 - 13:12
    +3

    I don't think the OP is a monster - I get the feeling the OP is far too kind for their own good and they've been exploited to the point that even a possibly legitimate cost to them seems unfair. I know the feeling.

    Bit surprised that so many people missed the person's comment that it would cost them about $200 to write it off (though it was heavily downvoted)

    ie, we are SERIOUSLY debating whether to ask for $700 profit off this person.

    But if you've ever had to go through days, months, years of an unreliable and completely oblivious person's constant failures to be a decent, reliable person - well, it's tough to give a quarter to them because you feel like they are constantly manipulating your good will and I very much doubt this is anything other than a matter of principle.

    Even worse if there is a part of you that thinks maybe this is a lie.

    Anyway, the course of action is clear. Wear the debt. Attempt to find out if it is the truth. Fire the employee when you can, because that employee has you around their finger.

    You did their hair, you have their names - it's very simple to quietly confirm this. Facebook.

  • imcold on 26/12/2014 - 13:22
    +1

    I'm surprised out of the 4 people that received a service none of them could afford to do it without credit.

  • OzBrogains on 26/12/2014 - 14:24
    +6

    15th person to call troll.

    1) No news reported of said death.
    2) Nobody is that much of a tool.

    OP is an e-sociopath who gets his jollies getting a rise out of people. Don't let it get to you.

    Enjoy the rest of your break Ozbargain.

    • tyler.durden on 26/12/2014 - 15:00

      yeah this is guy is creating all these stupid threads

      best to not respond to these threads

  • azshade on 26/12/2014 - 14:53
    -3

    I've got another option.

    Start a quick kickstarter or gofundme or whatever with your $900 as your limit. I'd be happy to help toss $10 towards it.

    Debts suck, but so to does grief. I think a third option is better.

    • Sammy2000 on 26/12/2014 - 17:03

      Who are you giving money to? The mother?

  • mousie on 26/12/2014 - 16:04

    I call trol. He is asking on a bargain thread to possibly see to what extent we would go to money back.
    If not a troll I hope someone keys your car and then you can moan next week on here.

  • gstfree on 26/12/2014 - 17:20

    Assume the sad story is true, I am sorry to hear that.

    My suggestion:

    • Do not mention anything now until things are settled down.
    • Provide compensate leave per government regulations.
    • Debt is debt. You should mention it to the employee and ask for pay back after things are settled down. You could offer a payment plan or a discount if you are generous.
    • Please be noted FBT will trigger if you write it off. You will incur additional $900 payable to ATO. Alternatively, you may pay her a bonus through payroll. In this case, you may be liaible for additional payroll tax. Please consulte your accountant for different options.

    If this happens to my workplace (MNC), it will be very difficult to get the loan waived if the employee underperforms.

    • kasp on 26/12/2014 - 19:56

      Actually Fringe benefits wouldn't be triggered as technically it was services rendered to the daughter. You really think the Taxman would kick up a fuss on the definition?

      All she is choosing to do is billing the deceased which can no longer pay rather than her mother which happens to be an employee.

      • gstfree on 26/12/2014 - 21:34

        Below is not an advice, but general discussion only

        FBT arises when benefit is provided to employee or employee's associates. In this case, hairdressing services was provided to the employee's daughter and mother agreed to pay. If the boss waived the debt, debt waiver fringe benefits will trigger.

        In house fringe benefit may also arise here.

        The boss can choose to invoice the deceased estate. If it is satisfied that the estate is unable to settle the claim, the debt can be written off as a genuine bad debt WITHOUT FBT consequence.

        I will not comment the likelihood of picking up by taxman :) - You know what I mean.

        • [Deactivated] on 28/12/2014 - 00:39
          +1

          I agree with other posters that OP is trolling us since the threads just don't add up, but will throw in my 2 cents as far as the FBT discussion is concerned

          Please be noted FBT will trigger if you write it off.

          Easiest thing in this hypothetical situation is to pretend the agreement to repay didn't exist and call the hair dressing an in house residual benefit, it's underneath the exemption threshold so no FBT would apply.

          You will incur additional $900 payable to ATO

          Be careful not to confuse taxable value and tax payable.

          In house fringe benefit may also arise here

          Not at the same time as debt waiver, it'd be one or the other

          Alternatively, you may pay her a bonus through payroll. In this case, you may be liaible for additional payroll tax.

          You're forgetting PAYG needs to be withheld on the bonus. You need $900 cash in hand not $900 before tax if you want to apply that money against the outstanding debt ie bonus would have to be a lot higher than $900

        • gstfree on 28/12/2014 - 09:29
          +1

          @jay29043:
          Agree with you. What I provide is indication only.

          Assume debt waiver, taxable value 900,gross up 1.8692, tax rate 47%.this gives liability roughly 900.

          In house benefit may arise here if there's no debt agreement. Assume 75% of what he normally charge to the customers is no more than 1k, no fbt will be liable.

          If bonus 900 is processed through payroll, yes PAYG will be witheld and the staff will receive less than 900.

          The best solution is "write off" 290 and get the staff to settle the rest. However,without detailed information, it's difficult to make a management decision.

    • IanC on 26/12/2014 - 20:47

      The debt or loan as it will be classified appears to be with the mother (the employee) and as such would trigger FBT imho.
      If forgiven, would come under a "Debt Waiver Benefit" .
      Could be written off without FBT if a genuine bad debt, but not for forgiveness on compassionate grounds.
      More than happy to be corrected.

  • kasp on 26/12/2014 - 19:54
    +1

    Meh gotta be a troll.

  • Joshman5k on 26/12/2014 - 20:43

    Own you're own decisions and stop outsourcing them to a online forum.

  • mranderson978 on 26/12/2014 - 20:56

    write off the debt.

  • poppit88 on 26/12/2014 - 21:17

    My first read of this, was that you'd done your employee's daughter's hair for the wedding. I'd be doing it as a gift. Then you find out she has been killed in a car accident and you want the money from the mother…… Sorry but WT………

    Seriously, you shouldn't have done her hair then in the first place. That is just appalling can you imagine the grief that women is enduring.

    • iridiumstem on 26/12/2014 - 21:56

      But it's not $9,000 dollars. Your question was clearly about $900. If it was $9,000, people would've probably told you off about lending out that much on a verbal contract, but there probably would be less comment about how you should write it off. That being said, your question was about $900. Just saying.

      That being said, I personally have known for a fact that rich people actually have more strict things with giving out money. So I wouldn't call you a heartless monster but rather, tell you to do what some said. Calculate the losses and gains from each actions and compare them, include those feelings and relationships and everything.

      Though, generosity does not always lead to monetary losses in the long run, nor does being strict with giving out money lead to monetary gains in the long run.

        • iridiumstem on 26/12/2014 - 22:25
          +1

          Hypothetical questions, yes, changes topic around so that it becomes so different that I'd actually argue that you are asking different questions, also yes.

          Just saying, just because you feel like $900, $9000, $90000 wouldn't matter in this situation, it clearly matter to other people. You are changing the questions around.

          Your argument goes,

          As people would say different things to writing off $9000, as amount of money that you lend out doesn't change the value of verbal contract, you cannot say that I am a heartless person thinking about getting the $900.

          It simply doesn't hold. It's illogical.

          That being said, I don't think critical of you, I am simply pointing out that your logic is illogical.

        • [Deactivated] on 26/12/2014 - 22:35
          -2

          @AznMitch:
          Well not writing off $900 makes me heartless, what is the threshold? Will not writing off $3000 also makes me heartless? Or $5000?

        • johnnyb on 26/12/2014 - 22:35
          +3

          Would you write of the debt if the employee's whole family (including extended) was wiped by a swarm of killer, albeit very selective, bees- and she was constantly in fear of being bitten by one of these said killer bees, so much so that she is now gone in hiding in some undisclosed roadhouse between 90 and 300km outside of Alice Springs? Hypothetically.

          Yes? My god, you hypocrite. If your answer changes to a completely different circumstance with the same heading, you are clearly a hypocrite. That is the definition of hypocrisy.

        • iridiumstem on 26/12/2014 - 22:40
          +1

          @Iamgenerous: That is also an invalid argument. We are talking about $900, if you are bringing other values into this to make people feel to agree with you, then you are just using fallacies to accomodate your needs.

          What, since we change our opinions because of different monetary values, we are being hypocrits but since hypocrits are looked down upon, we should change our opinion of you?

          This is called relying on fallacies. I hate it. I am just simply pointing this out.

        • [Deactivated] on 26/12/2014 - 22:55
          -2

          @AznMitch:
          Well for argument sake, this is diverting away from my original post.
          Someone owes you $1000, verbal contract.
          His dad you met once died .
          You heard about it. Will you say to this person well because your dad dies, I will write off your debt?

        • iridiumstem on 26/12/2014 - 23:00
          +2

          @Iamgenerous: Calculate the losses and gains from each actions and compare them, include those feelings and relationships and everything.

          This was what I told you before and this is my answer now. Also it's taking a lot of details that you talked about from your post, if I was his employer, and other things, I would've probably swayed more to waiving it off or at least reducing it.

          That being said, I probably would look at the loss and gains from each things and see the overall benefits and losses before making the final decision.

          This being said, I personally don't think it's my job to judge any of the decisions. All decisions are valid ones.

        • johnnyb on 26/12/2014 - 23:02
          +2

          This changed circumstance doesn't take into account the nature of the debt (hair services for wedding) and the nature of the death (killed on honeymoon after said wedding).

          Not comparable.

        • [Deactivated] on 26/12/2014 - 23:05
          -8

          @AznMitch:
          Ok your answer is I would've swayed more to waiving it off or at least reducing it.
          My next question to you is given the same circumstances but this time this person owes you $100000. Will you be so generous this time ?

        • iridiumstem on 26/12/2014 - 23:09
          +10

          @Iamgenerous: If, like in your situation, that amount of money, like $900, is not going to kill me nor I can waive off like you can with $900, probably yes.

          Please stop using fallacies to your means, it's not working. It seriously isn't.

          I understand that you want us to give you, yes, you should collect the money, and I get the feeling that you want that to be the general concensus because you don't want to have that feeling of being a mean hearted person, but please stop using fallacies and other means to try to convince me or others. It's not working.

        • IanC on 26/12/2014 - 23:18
          +2

          Engaging directly with the OP is just providing feeding material Azn.
          You are being played with.

        • [Deactivated] on 26/12/2014 - 23:19
          -4

          @AznMitch:
          I take it as a no. You won't be as generous this time?What has changed? The amount?
          Not referring to you anything I write below.
          I'm simply making the point those who have been highly critical of me, think $900 is small amount, and I have been bragging about my net worth just write it off. But will they do the same if they are in my shoes? If they will, what if it was $9000? Will they still do the same? If not , aren't they hypocrites?

        • iridiumstem on 26/12/2014 - 23:24
          +1

          @IanC: I think that proves it… I need something to vent my anger out on… TO THE YOUTUBE COMMEN… I am never going to escape this, ain't I?

        • postform on 27/12/2014 - 02:38
          +13

          @AznMitch: I don't know why you continue to argue with this brick wall, but my god you have some patience.

          @OP Honestly it seems you personally want to recoup the money. So go ahead, why do you need moral support if you want to argue so loudly that you want the money back ? Of course you going to get back slash if you act so childish. You got our opinions, you disagreed, you pretty much bitched about your employee and then continued to press your agendas rather than listen. And if your username says thing about your personality, I sure don't want to meet you in person.

        • iridiumstem on 27/12/2014 - 03:00
          +2

          @postform: My porn middle name is Patience for a reason.

          I thought logic prevails in the end, well… I guess not.

        • Savvymum on 27/12/2014 - 04:29
          +7

          @Iamgenerous:

          This is a completely different scenario! Stop trying to make yourself feel better! Because you obviously have no heart or feelings just ask for the money and get over it!!! You aren't taking our advice on board so just do want you want to do and move on

        • djones145 on 27/12/2014 - 07:27
          +5

          @Iamgenerous:
          the fact that you are arguing here means u pretty much have made up ur mind

          go get some debt collectors, bikies, call up ACA and today tonight, seven news, nine news, anyone and get ur money back!
          also ask for compensation, lost interest, investment, enjoyment of life as you have been called a troll on ozbargain forum, that's worth around your net worth, $1.5m, and u should get that for each kid and wife!

          and if that fails, batman, call batman

    • Ughhh on 26/12/2014 - 22:22
      +3

      Why just exaggerate $9000, why not $90000000? $900 to someone with a networth of $10000 is a lot (9%?), $900 to someone with a networth of $1m is fairly minute in comparison. In addition, $900 isn't what it actually cost you, so the amount you lose is much less in comparison. Im sure you'll make the money back in profits in no time.

      The fact that $900 was all you seem to care about in this situation (before Xmas and before the said time your employer stated she could repay the money) shows what kind of person you are, a person that you probably didnt even know yourself.

      Also for some reason, I would not be too surprised if you tell employees off for using more than 3 sheets of toilet paper.

      • IanC on 26/12/2014 - 22:27
        +3

        THE OP is also bleating about having to pay $300 compassionate leave and also about paying this lazy employee a $250 xmas bonus.
        Says it all.

        • gstfree on 26/12/2014 - 22:35
          +1

          I work o/t 2 hours every business day w/o pay, nil Christmas bonus was received :(

        • ankor on 27/12/2014 - 15:15
          +3

          @gstfree:

          White collar workers yo!

    • gstfree on 26/12/2014 - 22:34

      In my opinion, debt is debt. It must be either paid off or properly written off.

      You will incur additional $900 payable to ATO if you simply write it off.

      Employee is obligate to pay unless there's a reasonable ground she should not be paying. (Hard work, extra value created for business, o/t without pay, good customer services skills and always positive feedbacks etc etc…)

      As a responsible employer, you should show some sympathies - offer discounts or provide a grants no more than $300.

    • Cordova on 27/12/2014 - 10:23
      +8

      Clearly, your love of money over-rides any empathy you may have. So I'll explain this in terms that you'll understand and leave out basic human decency in my reply as it'll likely fall on deaf ears.

      From a business sense writing off $900 is a far better proposition than trying to reclaim it from a mother who has just lost her child in tragic circumstances. Once word of it quickly gets back to your other employees they'll find out how you value them and common decency below the value you ascribe to money.

      This will generate a lot of ill-will amongst your staff and you could very well lose some of them, or at the least any respect they had for you. Your clientele will no doubt hear about it as well so you can expect to lose some of them, especially if their preferred hairdresser moves to another salon.

      In short you'll lose more than $900 from the fallout if you try to get the money back.

      If you have trouble understanding my post I can repost it with the 's's changed for dollar signs if that will help.

    • existence on 27/12/2014 - 14:51
      -1

      Her daughter and son in law were smashed to pieces and you call her a lazy worker.

  • p1 ama on 26/12/2014 - 22:08
    +2

    OP, this is tragic, but I don't think it's fair on you that you're being negatively voted into oblivion.

    But I can see it from your point of view as well - you provided a service on credit and you ought to be paid because of your time and materials. I completely understand that. I completely understand that if the lady was to have borrowed $900 from a bank, they would make her pay it back.

    However, even though I understand, I urge you to reconsider. Even though she owes you $900, how much of that was actually costs? From the sounds of it, you worked for a day and you would have used a bit of materials. But I doubt you'd be using over $100 in materials. So maybe the cost isn't as big as you think.

    It really comes down to that, but it's your decision. Despite what others here are saying, I think it's way too easy to sit anonymously behind a keyboard and pretend to be great people. I do wonder how many of those people who are -ve voting you would actually leave the $900 in your situation.

  • langitbiru on 26/12/2014 - 22:13
    -1

    UHm, personally, i am thinking it simple…

    If your income is an easy one… you can make money within short period of time, and you have a busy business, and money comes like just water…
    my advise would be generous… let it go, if your employee doesn't mention it within 1 month, but after 1 month, you have to stand out and making clear to your employee that you are letting go and feel sorry about what happened. This will make your employee feel grateful and willing to help you in any way in the future.
    Even the employee doesn't feel grateful with it, take it easy, think it as a xmas donation.

    if your income is a hard one, money is hard to find, business not very good, then you have to wait a month, if your employee doesn't mentioned to pay you, then you have to ask for payment in a polite way a month after.

    Also, considering, when you say it is $900, is it your cost? i guess it should be lower than this… if you are to make a loss, then it is still below that figure… [when you are trying to reconsider making your final decision]

  • Hirolol on 26/12/2014 - 22:21

    Just ask for 50%.
    Atleast you will get something back and your employee might feel a bit better.
    Yes, you are trying to run a business not a charity but nobody should have to bury their child…

  • belongsinforums on 26/12/2014 - 22:38
    +1

    OP, whatever the outcome, please do tell us! We must know!

  • thirtysixd on 26/12/2014 - 22:53
    +6

    Even if you are only concerned about money

    The negative word of mouth would cost you much more than $900

    Hairdressers are the number 1 gossipers!

  • fruxo on 27/12/2014 - 00:01
    +6

    It's her daughter, definitely just leave it and be as supportive as you can. Really sad. For a business to absorb a grand for a good employee going through such a tragedy is a no brainer. If she brings it up, just tell her not to worry about it.

    Edit: reading some of the posts from op now makes me think that there is a strong lack of empathy. You shouldn't have to even consider it with such a small amount of money, especially for a business. She might "just" be an employee, but you clearly know her well and your heart should go out to her. I feel sad for her just reading about it, losing a child must be one of the toughest things anyone can go through. She is clearly not that well off if she didn't even have the funds to pay for it until after Christmas. And now she has additional costs with funeral and whatnot, not to mention that she will probably need some leave without pay from work to recover as well. I know you are not running a charity, but have some compassion.

    Edit: after more reading, it seems like op is most likely a troll. Which actually makes me feel a lot better, especially after reading that the $900 was not cost price and he is only $200 out of pocket. If not a troll against all odds, I hope the poor women finds a better place to work and that she spreads the story after the op asks for the $900 back. Whether he technically should get this money or not, the circumstances are quite extreme and any decent human being would be shaken by an acquaintance unexpectedly dying like this.

  • poppit88 on 27/12/2014 - 01:52
    +2

    I'm even more gobsmacked that you are even commenting about paying her compassionate leave. You can get your $900 + $300 compassionate + $250 bonus back over time. She can't ever, ever get her daughter back. She's gone FOREVER! The really simple question to everyone here is, how would you react if you were in this poor women's position!

    What happened to humanity! The reality - it isn't $5k or $10k.

    A normal caring, loving human being would give the lady a month off paid, and tell her to come back when she's good and ready.

    When things like this happen to other people around you - they're supposed to act as a wake-up call to life! It's fragile and precious! Notwithstanding all the other awful news on our screens last week. Children in Pakistan being gunned down, a seige in Sydney, 8 innocent children dead in Queensland.

    My answer to you is wake-up and get a grip on life. You can't take your money with you!

  • dji1111111 on 27/12/2014 - 02:48
    -4

    Start a fund raiser and invite everyone posting on this thread to donate for this poor woman via Paypal.
    So easy to criticise others when it's not your own money on the line.
    This should sort out the fakes from the real ones and at the same time, you are not out of pocket.

    • [Deactivated] on 27/12/2014 - 04:43
      -4

      Good idea.
      In fact should do a round table dinner. Table of 10. Each seat to cost $900. Make it 10 tables.With all the morally astute commentors coming in droves , it will be a sold out in no time. We can raise $90000 for her.

      • ausdiva on 27/12/2014 - 07:06
        +5

        Not everyone here is a small business owner with the net worth of 1.5 MILLION as OP claims in another post to be. If they were a struggling waged employee, or a student or unemployed,who needed that money urgently,I might see it differently.OP is not going to have trouble paying his light bill if the loan is unmet. Plenty of OZbargainers would be. I HAVE let loans slide of over $2000 when I was more financially viable. Presently I couldn't afford to loan $50 to anyone as I am suffering from a disability. To tar every commenter who advises to let the loan go as hypocritical do-gooders is unfair. Many of us have been on both sides of the coin(financially comfortable & struggling) & we see the merit in letting it go & 'there but for the grace of God go I' principle.
        However, those who CAN afford to contribute to a Paypal for this lady,it's a good idea.Even if your suggestion was done in sarcasm.

        • razorack999 on 27/12/2014 - 07:14

          yeah great idea about the paypal. In fact we should start up a council with you as chairmen . You could then distribute the funds as you see fit to the families of the 150,000 people who died year.

  • Krizy on 27/12/2014 - 03:41
    -1

    The notion of 'debt is debt' as a moral justification is utter nonsense. That aside, lets assume that you're not concerned with being ethical — you've got a business to run. Is the employee making all of this up? I'm sure you're entitled to see evidence that corroborates her story as part of the regulations that mean you have to pay her while she's taking time off.

    Then all you have to think about is the future costs/risks/rewards of different courses of action. How legally enforceable is your agreement? Can you get away with firing her as retribution if she doesn't pay? Will it affect the attitude of customers or other staff if you ask her to collect? If on balance you think your net financial position will be better by making her pay up, either partially or in full, then maybe you should. However, I would imagine that it's going to be much less unpleasant for the both of you if you have some patience and she offers to pay you the money of her own accord.

    Debt is debt, but life isn't always fair. Let it go.

  • ausdiva on 27/12/2014 - 06:49

    Why is it that people with the most money are the most penny-pinching? You say on your other post your net worth is $1.5 MILLION, but you can't absorb the $900 from a waged employee who just lost their child & son-in-law? Shame on you. Reminds me of my Godmother,who is a wealthy childless doctor with million dollar art in her apartment. My sister & I cared for our late aunt,who was disabled. My sister had to leave her abusive husband to live with me,so borrowed $1000 from our Godmother to get herself out of there.There was a mix up at the bank,and the fortnightly payments were not coming out as often as she thought,but she WAS paying it back,even if after 4 months the money wasn't paid in full.2 DAYS after our aunt dies,& is still in the hospital morgue, she rings my sister up & rants about how our aunt would be 'ashamed' of her for 'not doing the right thing'.(In truth my aunt,who had little materially,often resented the selfish & rather insensitive manner of this family 'friend' who was always rather brusque & self-absorbed & whom she tolerated for my mother's sake.)My sister has never welched on a debt, is not a dishonest person & did not deserve this. This is a woman with millon dollar art, who lived at home with her parents well into her 50s,had a holiday apartment,but who bought 50 cent tuna at Coles,gave $5 gifts at Xmas & could not wait 2 days until my aunt was dead to put her hand out. I basically gave my sister the money from the whole whopping $800($400 of which went in legal fees) in my aunt's estate so that we would never have to deal with her again.Your REAL net worth is how you behave as a decent human being. Put some investment in THAT, your 'net worth' will be inestimable.

    • razorack999 on 27/12/2014 - 07:06
      +1

      I think everyone should stop being so JUDGEMENTAL . He asked for an opinion, not a lecture and a character assassination.

  • brilliantthings on 27/12/2014 - 07:07
    +16

    Iamgenerous on 25/12/2014 - 04:02 new
    We travelled last year on business class to hk. Excellent food and service. Travelling with 3 kids, they were all looked after very well. I won't go anything less than business class.

    This post by OP from another thread says it all. There is no lack of funds here, just a lack of heart.

    • secondstory on 28/12/2014 - 18:48

      Lack of heart would probably result in not having this thread at all and then enforcing the money in whatever brutal way seemed convenient and possible putting the mother through grief.

      Even if it's just searching for a way to tactfully go about reclaiming the money still shows an understanding on human compassion.

      • brilliantthings on 29/12/2014 - 07:05

        Pretty sure this guy started the thread to work out if there is any way to recover the $900. He's not after moral counselling.

  • Cusack on 27/12/2014 - 09:48

    Play out both scenarios. If you asked for the payment, how would you feel? Relieved that you got your money coz you stuck to your business rules? Can you now buy that camera you wanted? Or did it actually save your business from going under? How do you feel?
    Now imagine you let it go. Greatful that you know deep down you have more than enough that you can give back to others. And in the end it's only money. How do you feel? Now choose based on which feeling you'd rather have.

  • dbadcock on 27/12/2014 - 10:10
    -1

    I have seen so many replies to the op that totally irrelevant.

    Why is iamgenerious's net worth relevent?
    Why is iamgenerious's business class flights relevent?
    Why is it even relevant that a family member died.

    Does everyone expect handouts when something bad happens?

    Plain and simple - it is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the situation whatsoever.
    People need to step down off their high horses and get with the real world.

    Looking at it from a purely business perspective - she agreed to pay for services, you have provided a service, but up to date, she has not upheld her part of the agreement. Regardless of rain,hail,or shine - She agreed to pay for services which you provided.

    I say give her a week after she said she was going to pay the debt and then ask her.

    Remember, people tend to be quite forgetful when they borrow money from an unsecured creditor. But it would be different it the tables were turned.

    Loaning money to people has similar terms as paypal 45 day dispute resolution center, in the way that if you have not seen it in 45 days, it will be likely that you never will

    • razorack999 on 27/12/2014 - 10:30
      +1

      I agree. Does the ATO forgive debts because of a family member dying. NO.
      Does your mortgage lender forgive debt because of a family member dying? No.
      Is the ATO and a major bank worth more than 1.5 Million. Yes?

      SURELY it is the prerogative of the OP to decide where he wants to spend his charity dollar (or even if he wants to donate to charity) There are many MORE deserving causes than an employee , especially one that has an average track record.

      • lead_org on 27/12/2014 - 10:48
        +1

        true, but then again government is a heartless entity. Are you saying that OP is also of similar kind?

        Also, i am surprised that the OP is with so candid with the performance assessment of the worker. If she really sucked this bad as a worker, and you are clearly not happy about her performance, why continue employing her?

        I think the best thing is that you speak to the person, and work out a payment plan. Give her some discount say 30%, and then ask her to pay the rest in installments over several months. This way you won't feel too bad about losing all of the money, and she can pay you back for what she owes.

        Finally, if you think you want to continue employ her as an employee for the foreseeable future, and wants her to be a more productive member of your team, you should talk to her one to one about the need to clock in and clock out at the right time.

        P.S. Coming late to work and going off early probably costs you more than 900 dollars over 2 years, yet you are not chasing this.

        • [Deactivated] on 27/12/2014 - 14:33
          -1

          If I have a choice I would have sacked her long time ago. I feel the unfair dismissal law is too biased in favour of employees. I have spoken to her multiple times on various issues, gave her verbal warnings and recently when I can't stand it anymore a written warning.
          My comment was last to arrive first to leave does not imply she is late for work and leave early but simply arriving at8.59am for a customer booking of 9am. The moment the clock hits 5pm she won't stay a second more.
          I know most of you who think I am a heartless scumbag monster must have been mistreating her at work , she does not want to spend an extra minute at her workplace. Again you are all entitled to your opinions, while I am far from the perfect employer, I treat every employee fairly and with upmost respect

        • IanC on 27/12/2014 - 15:06

          and the baiting continues

        • existence on 27/12/2014 - 15:08
          +1

          @Iamgenerous:

          Would you pay her for the time she arrives early, or stays in? Did she recieve a Christmas bonus? You want that extra favour from her, yet when her family are smashed to pieces your not very sympathetic.

        • TtiGeR on 27/12/2014 - 15:17
          +2

          @Iamgenerous:

          If she's not late for work or leaves early, she did nothing wrong. She's paid to do her job during the paid business hours. I hope she's not warned for not arriving earlier/staying longer than required.

        • lead_org on 27/12/2014 - 16:15

          @Iamgenerous: I see. I think it is okay for her to work for the hour she got paid for and nothing more. This also explains why you want to chase the debt back from her, as you see her to be a person whom is stingy with her time in the past.

          I think the issue here is not about the money that she simply owes you. It is about you wanting to get even with her past behaviours at work.

          Since you two are no strangers to awkward talks, I think it is best that you two talk it over, not just about the money, but the personal behaviours at work. This is especially important since you can't fire her without just cause, you might as well establish a proper professional relationship with her. You can still get the money back, but it is best that you can give her few options in doing so. This will also give you a moral high ground.

          Never make this a tit for tat thing. You are obviously asking for advice here to help you make a proper decision on what to do. Since we do not know the personal circumstances or you personally, it is best that you do what makes you feel good in the long run.

        • [Deactivated] on 27/12/2014 - 21:19

          @existence: if someone does overtime yes he/she will always be compensated. Yes every employee received his or her Xmas bonus if you must ask.if an employee arrives early I take that as he or she is dedicated to his or her work and any boss will be pleased if the employee is there few minutes before to be ready to start the shift right on time.
          You know these days a full timer gets 4 weeks annual leave, 2 weeks sick leave, 2 weeks public holiday,5 hours paid smoko per week, their super, their work cover . Is it too much to ask to come in few minutes before not to start cutting hair but maybe to get themselves ready before clients arrive?

        • lead_org on 27/12/2014 - 23:57
          +1

          @Iamgenerous: The problem with your current perspective is that you are looking at this relationship between you and the employee from a number perspective. I paid you xx amount of money with xx amount of annual benefits, why can't you do xx number of hrs (and xx number of extra minutes per day). This might work if the person also looks at your employer/employee relationship from a number perspective like a tax accountant.

          But most people don't behave like this. Many people will look at their job from a job satisfaction perspective. If the job satisfaction is high, they will want to do more of it. If the job satisfaction is low, then they will want to do less of it. If latter is true, then either the person quits the job, or if he/she can't quit then they do the minimal amount of hrs to get the required pay. When you are happy at work, you tend to think less of work hrs and be more altruistic towards your coworkers and boss.

          Obviously, some workers are bludgers whom just do not want to do anything at work. But given that the employee do come on time (not late) and get off work on time, then i think the issues here are more related to job satisfaction. Personally, i would be happy to work some free overtimes or do things for my boss, if he/she are understanding and caring. If she only cares about profits, and couldn't careless about you personally, then i would reciprocate this behaviour by doing the bare minimum of what is required of me as an employee.

      • brilliantthings on 27/12/2014 - 13:42

        I'm sure plenty would disagree, but I think an individual's giving to charity should be proportional and dependent on their wealth and earnings. Of course everyone has the right to choose how they spend their money and if they are generous or otherwise. As can be seen above.

        • janeymac on 04/02/2015 - 11:38

          Why don't you pay your employees to arrive 15min early to set up for their appointment? Or make first appointment at 915?

          Or just get them to clock in and out per haircut and deduct the time they 'stand around' between appointments because setting up and cleaning after is not 'work,' therefore does not need to be paid?

  • vessbook on 27/12/2014 - 11:18

    This is not the end of the day. Forget about the debt and start working again. She will remember this for the rest of her life which will make her a very very good employee.

  • paulojr on 27/12/2014 - 12:46

    if it was a client I could see the delemmia as I was in a similar situation and did not persue the issue, but also did not get any further business from the client, but this is not a client this is someone you rely one and are responsible for. I'd let it go and also put some effort into helping them out. Life is not all about money and worrying about money is not healthy for you either.

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