Car Engine Has Blown off

Ash-Say on 26/01/2015 - 20:06
Last edited 26/01/2015 - 20:14

I am feeling so embarrased to write however I need urgent advice.

I bought this car from private seller for $2000. I admit that I did not check under bonut things properly. The advertisment said that only A/c was not working and it needs gas.

I had quick drive for 5 minutes and did not find any issues. When I drove it on M5 after buying, it got overheated and engine lost power within 5 minutes.

NRMA has checked and advised that engine is gone. Some fluid was leaking from engine. Nrma told me that fluid was leaking for a long time and he showed me white spill marks

I have tried to contact seller however there is no response.

Is there anyway I get my money back?

Can I lodge police report for fraud and file a case in civil and administration tribunal?

Automotive

Comments

  • ozbargainoid on 26/01/2015 - 20:14
    +46

    No, caveat emptor (let the buyer beware)

  • pjetson on 26/01/2015 - 20:23

    My understanding is that even if a private seller is aware of a fault in the vehicle for sale, they are under no obligation to tell you. So, even without knowing what the seller told you about the condition of the car, I doubt there has been a fraud.

    Does the Civil and Administration Tribunal even handle private sales?

    Perhaps you need to talk to your local community legal centre.

      • Osprey06 on 28/01/2015 - 16:33
        +8

        Ummm…no. Buying from a dealer ^= buying from a private seller.

        I note the seller is in Sydney. Here's what FairTrading NSW have to say about it:

        Mechanical inspection

        After you’ve inspected and test driven the car, it is strongly
        recommended you have it inspected by a qualified
        mechanic.

        Buying privately

        Keep in mind that when buying a car privately there are
        no warranties. Buying privately involves relying on your
        own judgement         and being extremely thorough in checking
        everything about a car before you buy.

        No offence to the OP, but taking the car 'for a quick 5 minutes drive' (especially given the OP doesn't seem to know anything about cars - again, no offence intended) does not satisfy any of those suggestions. If the car had been taken to a mechanic, the mechanic gave it the all clear and then it blew up 5 minutes later…well then you might be able to claim the mechanic was negligent.

  • pointless martyr on 26/01/2015 - 20:25
    +40

    Mmmmmm bonuts

    On a serious note, as the first guy said - buyer beware.

    Its worth getting the RAC or NRMA to do a check on a second hand car. $100 or so if you are a member.

    Lucky you didnt get stung on a 20k car.

    • Charity on 27/01/2015 - 19:08
      +14

      In true millennial fashion, the buyer got the NRMA check after he bought it and found out the problems.

      P.S. if you are reading this OP, please don't drink the contents of the battery. (the warning sticker might have fallen off)

      • pointless martyr on 27/01/2015 - 20:13
        +6

        Yes, you must check under the bonut things before you see how fast it can get to 100 kmph. In this case, it was apparenlty obvious the big thing under the bonut had signs of leakage.

    • surethang on 28/01/2015 - 13:28
      +17

      "Under bonut things" - important since… forever.

    • worldwidehappiness on 28/01/2015 - 23:31
      +1

      I got an NRMA inspection on a car back in 1996. They said it was fine, but as I was driving it home, the brakes failed and smoke started coming from the exhaust. Then it was one problem after another. The car had been basically driven into the ground. So I wouldn't rely exclusively on an NRMA inspection either.

    • hayne on 30/01/2015 - 17:54

      @pointless comment you get an upvote just for the bonuts comment

      • pointless martyr on 04/02/2015 - 18:03

        Why thankyou. Sorry i did not reply sooner but i was banned form this site for a week for trolling. Apparently i made to many bonut cracks and someone took offense!

  • modsec802 on 26/01/2015 - 20:31
    +4

    You'll find private sales are sold 'as is, where is' so you won't get your money back.

  • [Deactivated] on 26/01/2015 - 20:32
    +7

    Who did it blow off?

  • boonanza on 26/01/2015 - 20:37

    What sort of car is it?

  • Ash-Say on 26/01/2015 - 20:53

    No kia carnival

    • rigby75 on 27/01/2015 - 12:32
      +6

      Common issue with the Kia carnival.

      • schwinn on 27/01/2015 - 13:40
        +34

        The power to surprise?

  • cypher67 on 26/01/2015 - 20:56
    +4

    That's why it always pay to get a mechanic to check out the car prior to purchase. Sell it for parts and cut your losses and learn from the experience

    • Ash-Say on 26/01/2015 - 21:04

      Just got home with tow truck. The driver told me that probably only head gasket is gone.

      How much will it cost to fix it?

      My original question: can I somehow money get from seller?

      • YaBigGoose on 26/01/2015 - 21:15
        +8

        Nope.

      • cypher67 on 26/01/2015 - 21:45
        +6

        100% no, on the upside it wasn't a super expensive car

      • IdBuyThat4aDollar on 27/01/2015 - 10:45

        My old man and mechanic friend replaced a head gasket and machined the engine head on my girlfriends car at the time. Came to like $500. Its a big job though. At a mechanic it will probably cost close to if not more than what you paid for the car.

      • Charity on 27/01/2015 - 19:30
        +3

        head gasket = one of the most crucial components.

        the good news = the gasket is cheap.

        the bad, the fitting of the gasket = car is a write-off.

        BTW, there is no way a tow truck driver can legitimately say it is just the gasket without a comprehensive test. Often even then, major disassembly is required.

        • Conka on 28/01/2015 - 14:28
          +8

          OP; sorry for your loss. Where is the poll with the "bikies" option?

          I got a chuckle when I read this comment - good old Homer…

          Shopkeeper: Take this object, but beware, it carries a terrible curse!
          Homer: Oohh, that's bad.
          S: But it comes with a free frogurt!
          H: That's good.
          S: The Frogurt is also cursed.
          H: That's Bad.
          S: But you get your choice of topping.
          H: That's good.
          S: The toppings contain potassium benzoate.
          H: …….
          S: That's bad.
          H: Can I go now?

      • Flomotor on 28/01/2015 - 14:32

        If an engine EVER boils, and yours has done probably multiple times, it is pretty much done.
        Like someone who has a heart attack, damage over time causes the attack and the attack itself causes much more damage.
        Bin it bluecasper :(

        • majord on 29/01/2015 - 13:20

          Nonsense.

          My 94 liberty overheated , a few times due to a radiator leak,and a air lock in the system over a decade ago . since that was fixed its done another 180000ish km , totalling 370000 now, on original everything (head gaskets included) and still going strong

      • Abaddon on 29/01/2015 - 09:21

        My mechanic replaced my head gasket for $500. I bought the gaskets (got a whole engine kit) from the US on ebay.

        Just need to shop around (I was quoted $1800 elsewhere) or have a good mechanic who isn't too exxy.

        But as others have said, depending on how the guy treated it on previous overheats there may be more damage. And it's an (I assume) older model Kia.

  • boonanza on 26/01/2015 - 21:11
    +1

    If you bought the car privately then you really can't do anything apart from harass the seller.

    • Ash-Say on 27/01/2015 - 15:41
      -8

      How can I harras him. This fraud is not even answering his phone

      • [Deactivated] on 27/01/2015 - 15:53
        +16

        First, it is not fraud.
        Harassing him can actually land you in trouble with the police.

        • [Deactivated] on 27/01/2015 - 16:45
          +9

          @bluecasper:

          No, it is not.

          Given that it is a private second hand sale, the seller is not under any obligation to disclose anything about the vehicle. The onus is entirely on you to ensure that the vehicle is up to scratch.

          If you bought the vehicle from a registered dealer, that would be a different story.

        • smpantsonfire on 28/01/2015 - 12:26
          +2

          @Drew22:

          Unless the questions were asked, and he answered falsly knowing what issues the car had.

        • [Deactivated] on 28/01/2015 - 12:37
          +4

          @smpantsonfire:

          How do you go about proving that the questions were indeed asked?
          No authority will take it based on your word alone, and the costs associated will be substantially higher than the initial $2000 anyway.

          All you'd be doing is wasting peoples time and throwing good money after bad.

          • Zachary on 29/10/2020 - 16:29
            +1

            @[Deactivated]:

            How do you go about proving that the questions were indeed asked?

            Record the conversation…

  • reecho on 26/01/2015 - 21:29
    +12

    Early Kia Carnivals with the Rover based v6 were badly prone to blowing head gaskets…..5 minutes googling on the internet would of told you that before you laid down your hard earned cash….

    • BartholemewH on 27/01/2015 - 00:38
      +19

      These early Carnivals are well known to be heaps of poo poo. I can accept that some people don't know about cars, what I can't accept is that they don't get a pre purchase inspection. Sorry for your loss.

      • Cluster on 27/01/2015 - 11:08
        +6

        I recall a coworker telling me about his new Carnival in the early 2000s. He visited the dealership for repairs very regularly, from engine repairs to broken suspension. These vehicles were defective by design from new, can't imagine how bad they are after more than a decade.

        • BartholemewH on 27/01/2015 - 20:36

          Might've been in the OCAU motoring forum, but I remember a guy that optioned a new one up from sub 30k to 50k+. It expired with about 10,000k's on it and when they took months waiting for an engine he complained that it 'shouldn't happen to a 50 thousand dollar vehicle'. Absolute gold.

  • Ash-Say on 26/01/2015 - 21:37

    I am planning to cancel registration to minimise loss. How can I find out who insured CTF greenslip for my car?

    • Qroozn on 28/01/2015 - 15:28

      I use an app called "service Nsw". It shows the ctp insurer and when the rego expires.

  • Ash-Say on 26/01/2015 - 22:16

    This is similar to my car.Can I expect to sell my car within this range?

    http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/new-lambton/cars-vans-utes/20…

  • mini2 on 26/01/2015 - 22:36
    +2

    Talk to your local Kia dealer. Apparently there was a service bulletin to replace the engine if it's showing signs of cooling issues (if it's under warranty) or they will stump up the cost of parts but you'll be paying labour.

    Maybe the service bulletin no longer exist/applies, it's been years since that was published (probably a decade?)

    Good luck.

    • mini2 on 28/01/2015 - 13:14
      +4

      Can someone explain to me why the negs? I didn't rain on the OP's parade but provided a possible avenue to get it resolved.

      • bargdebarg on 28/01/2015 - 16:09
        +2

        No idea, i gave you a plus as I don't get it either. You're just trying to help the poor guy who is obviously clueless.

      • tailgatinholden on 29/01/2015 - 10:51

        is it even possible that it's under warranty though!?!

        • McFly on 29/01/2015 - 12:32
          +2

          No.

        • mini2 on 29/01/2015 - 12:42
          -1

          It's definitely out of warranty and it doesn't hurt to ask if the dealership could assist by talking to Kia. Keep in mind service bulletin aren't recalls and given the age of the vehicle in question, the prognosis isn't great.

  • AMLagonda on 26/01/2015 - 23:39
    +3

    My wife sister had one and it went through a few motors, they are apparently not easily repairable, but lets be honest, why repair an old KIA.

    Just take it as a lesson learnt, heck we have all been there….

    • cypher67 on 27/01/2015 - 07:17
      +58

      whoa wait, your wife is your sister?

      • yaziyo on 27/01/2015 - 18:45
        +31

        The used car market is smaller in Tasmania

      • anawth on 28/01/2015 - 10:07
        +15

        Now that's a true Ozbargainer; saves on expensive family christmas/birthday presents by marrying his own sister.

      • Pinchie on 29/01/2015 - 19:22

        No no, they're sister-wives. They share the same husband.

      • Dollarsandsense on 31/01/2015 - 01:24

        "My wife sister.. Just take it as a lesson learnt, heck we have all been there…."

      • Zachary on 29/10/2020 - 16:33

        if he did, he'd correct them on it, but instead replied with: "I am shaking my head right now, its really not funny…" which would imply it is indeed his sister that is his wife he married.

        …unless of course its a troll to entertain readers…..

    • pointless martyr on 27/01/2015 - 13:38
      +12

      Is that you Borat?

    • Charity on 28/01/2015 - 01:30
      +6

      heck we have all been there

      no, lol your "tassie relationship" would be quite unique on the mainland

  • pointless martyr on 27/01/2015 - 01:23
    +43

    Sometimes life is like a box of bonuts….you never know what your gonna get

    • scrimshaw on 27/01/2015 - 17:28

      Bonut… I don't think I'll want to ever know what one of those tastes like!

      • pointless martyr on 27/01/2015 - 17:36
        +3

        In OPs case, im thinking it would leave a bitter taste

  • Ash-Say on 27/01/2015 - 07:28
    +2

    It looks like I will have to suck up the loss :(

    • Baysew on 27/01/2015 - 08:07
      +97

      The Carnival is Over.

      • [Deactivated] on 27/01/2015 - 18:02
        +17

        Looks like it was KIA (killed in action)

    • Flomotor on 28/01/2015 - 14:38

      Do cars in Tassie need to have a roadworthiness slip before annual rego?
      If so maybe it could be argued it wasn't roadworthy at the time, I doubt if this will give you the result you are looking for though.
      Time for an electric bike?

      Good Luck.

  • inittobinit on 27/01/2015 - 11:34
    +13

    You can't try get someone to fix your mistake.

    This is entirely your fault.

    Problem 1: I admit that I did not check under bonut things properly.

    Who buys a car without properly inspecting it?
    Better yet who spends $2000 without even checking what they are buying?

    Problem 2: bought this car from private seller for $2000.

    You bought a $2000 car, this should have set alarms off anyway. Don't get me wrong you can find some gems for $2000 but it is quite literally sifting for diamonds amongst the rubble.

    Put this down to a $2000 lesson for being stupid, live and learn.

  • Cave Fire on 27/01/2015 - 11:42
    +1

    in qld private sales usually need roadworthy certs. if a car develops problems covered by a roadworthy in two months or 2000 ks, you can go to the mechanic that issued the certificate to repair the issues. Don't know if something similar applies to your situation in Nsw. You could also try contacting the seller, not sure what you are willing to do to get your money back.

    • Shonky on 27/01/2015 - 14:36
      +2

      They are not called Road Worthy Certificates in QLD at least and haven't been for a while. They are Safety Certificates and only cover items important to safety such as brakes, tyres, shocks, seatbelts, windscreen etc. A damaged engine or cooling system would not be considered a safety issue generally although something such as an oil leak would probably be flagged.

      I suspect there was no inspection done.

      • Cave Fire on 27/01/2015 - 15:08
        +2

        A road test is part of the inspection. While it may not be on the official list, I don't think mechanics would let obvious catastrophic faults go past them. In fact, I have had cars fail an safety inspection for suspected head gasket leaks. People still use rwc, roadworthy, roady or safety certificate interchangeably, see Gumtree.

        • [Deactivated] on 01/02/2015 - 01:55

          I have actually come across and heard stories of dodgy RWC inspectors or people recommending dodgy RWC inspectors.
          Not sure about the OP's state but if a safety cert is required, one can easily get a cheap RWC done at a inspection/mechnic chain workshop. These usually have very strict inspections and they can easily provide a report listing about 10 (probably 20 for a 2k kia) un-roadworthy faults. You can get two such inspections done at two different chains and maybe try on grounds of selling a non-roadworthy car. Might not get your engine fixed but it may surely increase the value of the body (and frighten a few people) or at least make getting a cheap gasket job worthwhile.

          Don't tell me how these certificates only cover certain things because based on my personal experience the variation and inconsistencies are as numerous as the number of inspector themselves. I'm from queensland and I am throughly sick of how subjective these inspections are. It is just another avenue for the mechanics to rip us off.

      • rowenaduncan on 19/03/2015 - 08:24

        Slightly off topic - Why do they call them Safety Certs? I have personally had 4 vehicles, all issued with safety certs, which clearly should have not passed. Do they not have a list of things they need to check off? What is the point when you can't count on the safety inspection anyway????

        • Shonky on 19/03/2015 - 09:03

          Because they are specific to items that are more safety oriented and NOT reliability oriented. "Road worthy" tends to imply the rest of the car is in good condition.

          Whilst they will pick up simple things like an oil leak, a safety certificate for example probably wouldn't flag a blown head gasket or wouldn't note if the oil had never been changed in a car.

          Your situation sounds extreme. I find it hard to believe you have 4 cars in row all with dodgy safety certificates. There are some that give dodgy safety certificates however if caught that is a fairly serious offence. What should have failed?

        • rowenaduncan on 19/03/2015 - 09:39

          @Shonky:

          The worst one was a seat belt that was clearly knackered. I asked the mechanic to replace it before the RW check. (I had brought the vehicle for myself, without a roadworthy to begin with) He calls me back 2 days later, says I need a new seatbelt, the old ones stuffed (really???). I say ok - please replace it (again). I pass the RW. Old seatbelt not replaced when I pick the vehicle up. A seatbelt is pretty necessary for safety - also a legal requirement…

        • Shonky on 19/03/2015 - 10:26

          @rowenaduncan:
          Right. That's just downright incompetent then.

          And the other 3?

        • rowenaduncan on 19/03/2015 - 14:09

          @Shonky:

          Incompetent is right. They had the bloody thing for 3 months…

          Ford Capri. "Balljoints?" front steering was crunching. Tried to tell me that was normal. And that was a Kmart Tyre centre.

          Also the steering on a hilux. All over the road, very loose. Still passed a RW. All suspension completely replaced. All tires completely replaced. A friend at work (not a mechanic) suggested a worn spring in the steering column. I insisted it be replaced regardless the findings (new mechanic by this stage). Turns out both top and bottom springs were severely worn.

          I swear a mechanic sees a female coming and does only the work he wants to do. I finally found a good mechanic(UltraTune) and now refuse to use anyone else. They all crapped in their own nests because between myself and hubby, we have 5 vehicles + 2 motorbikes. Our current guy gets all the servicing work and repairs for the lot. Sometimes I feel like I'm on a roundabout.

  • [Deactivated] on 27/01/2015 - 12:01

    It's buy as it is. No refunds. Next time check the car with a mechanic. rekt

  • ExtraSalt on 27/01/2015 - 12:14
    +13

    Don't feel embarrassed. People normally arent educated to ask the right questions when buying. I've found that hits especially hard in NSW. In Victoria, rules are tough. Doesn;t matter if you are a private seller or own a yard, you have to get a RWC before you sell, and you only have 3 days to sell from issue date. There they check EVERYTHING including percentage of brake pads, AC filters, tread etc. and if it falls below 80% or something ridiculous, you have to replace them at your own cost. As far as i'm aware of in NSW, as long as it drives, its fair game. But that sucks for innocent unsuspecting buyers.

    So yes, its partly your fault for not asking the right questions, but when do we ever ask all the right questions? It's your system that is faulty.

    • Jackson on 28/01/2015 - 20:34

      3 days to sell? Prices must be cheaper in Vic with that much pressure to sell, who wants to dick around with going and getting certs every 3 days? Even the trading post used to give u 2 weeks on a sale

      • ExtraSalt on 29/01/2015 - 10:09

        nope, its to regulate roadworthy cars. So generally dealers and private sellers complete the sale, shake hands, and take the car to get a RWC. With my car, pickup was delayed by 2 days because first RWC didn't pass and they had to change $1100 worth of things, which went to AC cleaning, engine cleaning, AC filter, disk brakes and pads, and other small things. Once that was changed, they had to pay to get another RWC. Thereafter, they have to give me both certificates and proof of receipt to show they made the correct changes before handing it over.

      • hellbound on 29/01/2015 - 11:31
        +1

        RWC is valid for 30 days in vic, not 3 days. Usually you organise the road worthy after receiving a deposit, unless you think it'll sell particularly quick.

        • ExtraSalt on 29/01/2015 - 12:12

          oh is it that they have to fix issues within 3 or 7 days then

        • hellbound on 29/01/2015 - 13:15

          @andrew exclmtns:
          Some RWC checkers offer a free recheck if you failed the first time and need to get something fixed, they may impose a 3 day or similar limit on that recheck?

          Otherwise no idea what would have a 3 day validity, that's a very short amount of time when dealing with a government body.

  • johnno07 on 27/01/2015 - 12:47
    +8

    Hi it seems like you're my kind of buyer. I have a limited edition "On Blocks" vintage 90s Falcon. $5000 for this once in a lifetime offer! Sight unseen only!

    • pointless martyr on 27/01/2015 - 18:20
      +15

      Is the bonut in tact?

      • Yarkin on 27/01/2015 - 22:25
        +13

        No, there's a hole in the middle of the bonut.

  • MementoMori on 27/01/2015 - 13:06
    -4

    $2,000 for a car? Did it have a roadworthy?

    Regardless, $2,000 for a working car with no problems in 2015 is basically unheard of. I don't know what Kia's are worth but if you can get it fixed and roadworthy for under $3k that's as cheap as it gets for ANY car I'd imagine. A factory replacement mag alone for my friends Japanese car is $2k!

    If you are new to car ownership please realise these are mechanical things, lots of parts to go wrong and wear out and cost you. If you buy a $2k car it's realistic to budget at least another $500 per year for all the bits and pieces that could go wrong (ongoing).

    • yaziyo on 27/01/2015 - 18:48
      +5

      "$2,000 for a working car with no problems in 2015 is basically unheard of"

      This is not true. A 90s Japanese car in decent nick can be had for $2000, and if you're careful, can definitely be a reliable chariot for some years.

      • MementoMori on 28/01/2015 - 14:22

        Yes, I'm sure it's possible, just not probable (or requires lots of effort/mechanical knowledge/luck).

        Out of interest, I used Redbook with search criteria of TOYOTA and UNDER $2,100. There were 36 cars in the result set with the newest one being 1970 model (the rest all 60's and 50's models).

        Therefore, I think it's very unlikely to find a $2,000 199x car that is in decent nick. I think half of the reason the OP is in despair is because of these unrealistic expectations.

        • Shonky on 28/01/2015 - 14:29
          +6

          Rubbish. Perfectly possible to find a decent reliable car for that kind of money. Might have few kms on it and the paint body might be a bit rough but mechanically ok…

          460 post 1990 cars with safety certificates (so will exclude WA for example) under $2500 (i.e. easily $2k in most cases)
          http://goo.gl/7kH3gd

          73 Toyotas in there by the way post 1990 so your search must have been wrong.

        • twoface41face on 28/01/2015 - 23:21

          Well I purchased my 2003 Mitsubishi Mirage for 2000 dollars and it has had no problems in just over the year that I've had it! It's more than possible!

        • sillyguy on 28/01/2015 - 23:32
          +1

          I got a 1999 Magna for just 1500 in 2009 and it drove fine 6 hours ago…

        • worldwidehappiness on 28/01/2015 - 23:44
          +1

          Actually, it's more likely to get a reliable car for $2,000 in 2015 than ever before. I'm amazed at what you can get for $2,000 these days. Completely reasonable modern cars.

          Back in the mid 90s, you'd pay $5,000 for a really crummy 10 year old lousy Ford Laser that was 10 times worse than a $2,000 car these days.

        • mskeggs on 29/01/2015 - 07:58

          Your book learnin' ain't gonna beat the real world where there are plenty of serviceable cars for under $2000

        • MementoMori on 29/01/2015 - 12:13

          @Shonky: Me: 'Yes, I'm sure it's possible'. You: 'Rubbish. Perfectly possible'. Ummmm… aren't we agreeing here?

          Also, I used Redbook, you used Carsales. Two completely different websites. One values cars, one sells cars.

          So, you 460 Cars out of a total of 195,226 for sale online.

          Even assuming 100% of those 460 cars would be 'decent reliable' (i.e. not requiring a good $500+ spent on them within the first 12 months), that's 0.2% of all cars available on Carsales. I would estimate less than half of those 460 cars would be have no costly issues in the first year of ownership.

          So once again, I think it's unlikely and not probable to find a decent reliable car for $2000. Possible, absolutely, but probable? No. The odds are highly stacked against you when in reality around 0.1% of Cars for sale right now meet this criteria.

          Internet arguments never seem to understand this one.

        • Shonky on 29/01/2015 - 12:32
          +1

          @domcc1:
          You said "not probable". I'm saying "yes probable" so yes we are disagreeing.

          Redbook doesn't mean anything compared to actual cars for sale in the real world. I also didn't include Gumtree which would have a lot more since it doesn't cost $60+ to sell.

          Perfectly feasible to get a semi modern road worthy car for $2k. All cars require some money spent on them and if you can't afford $500 in a year, you shouldn't be buying a car.

        • MementoMori on 29/01/2015 - 13:20

          @Shonky: "All cars require some money spent on them and if you can't afford $500 in a year, you shouldn't be buying a car."

          Agreed totally. The crux of my post is I think the OP is stressing due to unrealistic expectations. Sure it's not nice to have such a costly expense straight away, but that's part and parcel of $2k cars.

  • merill on 27/01/2015 - 13:58
    +4

    About 5 years ago I sold my old Toyota for $2000 and the lady who bought it called me after 3 days to say the gasket had blown off. So I agreed to give her back $1000 since she said she could get it repaired for about $1300.
    I was initially going to sell it off to a car yard dealer who offered $1,200 guess I should have taken that (on hindsight).

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