Landlord wants me to pay for replacement of kitchen bench

Hello OzBargain,

I am worrying regarding a plumbing problem that happened at the property I am renting. It's quite a long story, and I'd like to opinion of the community regarding who should pay for repairs, or if there is a reasonable way to improve the situation.

I have been living at my unit since September 2015. Last week, while removing a tray from under the cupboard under the sink (something I don't do very often), I noticed that it was full of brown water. I brought a flashlight and noticed an accumulation of mould against the walls and under the bench top that seemed to be due to water having seeped from the sink above. I hadn't realized but the junction between both bench tops in my kitchen are starting to bulge as well.

I immediately reported the issue to the property manager, with photos attached, asking for what needed to be done. (https://goo.gl/photos/zWsEq9q9GTv8F3W69) Those are the photos I provided. I have also since then cleaned out the whole cupboards.

This morning, a builder came by to have a look, after being sent in by the property manager. I explained that the cold water tap had been leaking, so he took off the covers and agreed that this was a common problem. He advised to keep a towel under it until he comes in and fixes it on Monday. He said that he would also have to replace the silicone around the sink, which seems like the right thing to do.

Coming back from work today, I read an email from the property manager. See below:

"The Builder has gotten back to us, in regards to the leak and bench top issue that has now been made aware of.

After discussions the builder he believes that the damaged caused by the tap is not infact a building issue, but a result from the tenant. With excessive amounts of water being left/flowing on the bench top, thus causing the bench top to lift. Essentially the area has failed to been kept dry in.

There is two options to rectify this problem
1) reseal the sink and change spindles (Which we have authorised and is being done on the weekend)
2) Replace the whole bench top

In your lease section 32 - Notice of damage it states “if the tenant knows the premises have been damaged, the tenant must give notice as soon as practicable of the damage.” An issues like this is not one that can happen over night and would gradually have gotten worse over time (months). We advise you that the leak should of been reported to us earlier in order to avoid the issue. As a result we look to you to pay the cost of replacement.

"

I responded to his email in this way:

"
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly.

When I spoke to the plumber this morning, he noticed that the tap was indeed leaking from the inside. I explained to him that it was leaking stronger in the beginning, so I had to apply some force to prevent the leak from expanding. As I do not have the tools to access and repair that on my own, I fail to see how this is my responsibility.

The kitchen is wiped down every day, and excess water around the sink (a natural occurrence when washing up) is wiped off after every use. I did notice water sitting around the sink a few times in the morning, but I didn't expect it to seep though the sink (which was badly sealed), and cause internal damage to the cupboard under the sink. Furthermore, water never actually sat near the line separating the two bench tops, so it's entirely possible the damage is caused by water seeping in from around the sink, as evidenced by the fact that only the left work bench is affected by swelling. I think it is reasonable to assume that damage to the cupboard is due to bad sealing of the sink and the pre existing leak, and is not my responsibility.

I am happy to discuss this with you over the phone later today, or tomorrow morning before 10am.
"

Do I have any say on this, or will I just have to cop the bill? Having to plywood bench tops join up like this is quite a flawed design for an area likely to get wet in my opinion but what do you think? Can I do anything?

UPDATE 20/11: The PM has replied. He has discussed the issue with the LL and agrees to pay for the repair and replacement of the kitchen (which is a relief). He is offering I renew my lease and move to another unit in the block which has just finished renovating, for only about $10 more per week. His offer is really appealing, but I'm afraid that moving will mean that my ISP will realise they are accidentally charging me half what my cost should be! Decisions decisions!

Thanks all for your help!

Thanks!

Poll Options

  • 0
    Both partly responsible
  • 7
    Tenant should pay
  • 160
    Landlord should pay

Comments

  • +20

    You reported it as soon as you noticed it. Landlord is being stingy.

  • +2

    Judge Judy…

  • +5

    LOL if the benchtop looks like that with the massive gap, hes having a laugh.

    I did notice water sitting around the sink a few times in the morning, but I didn't expect it to seep though the sink (which was badly sealed)

    Just stop talking. All you're doing it talking yourself into a hole.

    Just say. This bench top is not waterproof/sealed correctly. I've been keeping the place clean, and is therefore not my issue. Please fix the problem at your earliest convenience.

    We advise you that the leak should of been reported to us earlier in order to avoid the issue. As a result we look to you to pay the cost of replacement.

    Unless you said "oh we knew about this months ago, but only just told you" then they're trying it on. Just ignore.

    OP, are you asian by chance?

    • +3

      Nope, not Asian, not that I see how race could have anything to do with this situation. If you think my claims are bs and I have no ground just say so. I'm looking for opinions from different perspectives and people.

      Edit: misread you. Thanks for your advise. I think they're trying me too

      • +12

        I suspect he might of thought you were being taken advantage of. :)

      • +11

        Just sometimes people try and take advantage of (immigrants) who don't know the laws.

        • +1

          immigrant Asians don't discuss nothing, they pull out machetes from the car boot

        • -1

          @btdroppedbox:

          Oh come on, give me just one example?

        • @Davo, immigrants can be from any country. Why specifically mention asian?

  • +2

    your landlord should have some photos of the condition pre-your start of tenancy - ask for a copy

    what does it say in your condition report that you signed at the time you started your tenancy?

    • +3

      At the time of the inspection, the landlord had stated all was clean. As per the RTA I filled in my observations and took photos as well. One of the photos should the silicone around the sink peeling off and being black. I also described it as being black on the RTA form

      • +9

        One of the photos should the silicone around the sink peeling off and being black. I also described it as being black on the RTA form

        case closed then. pre-existing issue.

        Tell them to suck it up and fix the problem (politely)

  • +3

    As an ex-landlord I would have expected to pay for something like this. This damage is clearly not caused by you. As others here have said, do not talk yourself into a hole. I'm not sure what state you are in so I'll assume NSW, if not just google up the relevant organisation in your state, but have a look through this site:

    http://www.tenants.org.au/

    http://www.tenanthelp.com.au/nsw/

    But save those as a last resort, be nice and polite but firm in your assertion that you are not paying for these repairs as a)you did not cause the damage and b) you reported the damage as soon as you noticed it.

    Also have a look through your rental agreement to see if the damage was noted there before you moved in..or not.

    • I'm in Queensland, so I suppose similar laws will apply.

    • As a landlord, my Grandparent has paid for damages like this few time. It 80's style and 90's style they had this problem I know now we have place a white seal on rest of unit ask tenant keep them water free.

    • +5

      tbh i dont see why OP should compromise. Its an idea though

      • this. don't offer to pay excess at all. Stingy landlord. :D

  • +4

    If the issue is you leaving water running, why are they replacing the taps? Because they are faulty.
    Just keep saying you reported it promptly, as soon as you noticed it.

  • It's totally soaked… That's been going on for a while.

    • -2

      Exactly.
      Tenant should have reported it earlier, or if they cant be botthered looking after the place let the PM in for weekly inspections.
      I'm guessing they wont want the latter so they should look after the place and report issues as they happen.

      • +2

        There was a small leak from the day I moved in. Since they'd inspected as well, I assumed they knew about it. I didn't think it would cause any damage or problems. It's only once I opened the cupboard and shined a flashlight that I saw it was causing damage

        • -3

          "urzu 56 min ago new ¶
          There was a small leak from the day I moved in. Since they'd inspected as well, I assumed they knew about it. I didn't think it would cause any damage or problems. It's only once I opened the cupboard and shined a flashlight that I saw it was causing damage"

          Don't assume anything.
          If you knew there was a leak you should have mentioned it and at least it would have been on record if the LL chose not to fix it.

          Now you have admitted you knew about the leak but did nothing I reckon you should be held accountable, unless you have evidence that the LL/pm also knew about it.
          Was it mentioned in the condition report?

        • +1

          @Davros: I didn't mention a leak, but I said "Tap backplates turn and wobble"… not very accurate in my description it seems. REgarding the mould I stated "seals are black" on the sink condition report

        • -2

          @urzu: Yes you did
          "urzu 56 min ago new ¶
          There was a small leak from the day I moved in."

          you also said "I explained to him that it was leaking stronger in the beginning, so I had to apply some force to prevent the leak from expanding." obviously you knew of the leak and tried to fix it instead of reporting it.

          Sounds like your at fault to me.

      • +4

        "Tenant should have reported it earlier"

        Tenant has only been there 2 months so they obviously did report it

        • Read the tenants post 2 up, seems apparent they did not report it at all and assumed the PM knew.

        • @Davros:

          The landlord and owner had a copy of the pictures of the problem via OP from the opening inspection 8 weeks ago and had done inspections inside the time the problem existed. If the owner/LL did noting about it or didn't notice it, that's not OP's problem.

  • +3

    Tenancy tribunal would make you pay nothing. Ring them in your state for advice, you may need to send a defect notice to the landlord and can claim a rent deduction for the time it takes them to fix the bench.

    • That's an idea, but I like the place and wouldn't mind keeping on renting past my original lease period

      • +2

        Good that you like the place but if the landlord is trying to take advantage of you now, who knows what they'll do in the future :) RUN FORREST, RUN! :)

  • +5

    My tenant flooded damaged the bathroom counter which warped. It wouldn't have happened if he had used the extractor fan or opened a window and allowed the bathroom to dry out, but the counter also wasn't properly sealed. The sealing was my responsibility as landlord, and since it contributed to the problem, I wouldn't ask the tenant to pay as I don't think it's fair. Also, it's my fault for not noticing that the damage was occurring during rent inspections - that's the purpose of said inspections. I think your landlord is being unreasonable.

  • Very difficult to determine whose fault is this.
    If the tenant is a long term on time payer, you just pay money to fix the bench.

    If you really think the tenant caused the damage and he/she is a trouble maker, ask the tenant to pay for repair or move out to stop similar troubles.

  • hold on…"it was leaking stronger in the beginning, so I had to apply some force to prevent the leak from expanding."… do I understand that knew of "a" problem far earlier, but rather than report thought you'd try "applying more force"??

    • -2

      Exactly.
      Tenant pays.

      • -1

        no tenant doesn't pay, a tenant can ignore a problem but still doesn't make it their responsibility

        • The law says something different

        • -1

          @Davros: no it doesn't

        • +1

          @kima: "In your lease section 32 - Notice of damage it states “if the tenant knows the premises have been damaged, the tenant must give notice as soon as practicable of the damage.” An issues like this is not one that can happen over night and would gradually have gotten worse over time (months). We advise you that the leak should of been reported to us earlier in order to avoid the issue. As a result we look to you to pay the cost of replacement."

          and

          Tenants must report to the agent or landlord any damage to the property that needs to be repaired.
          http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/biz_res/ftweb/pdfs/About_u…

          I am sure every state would have the same legislation in place.
          Failure to report it would be negligence on the tenants part and they could be held responsible.

        • +5

          @Davros:

          any experienced tradie can see that damage has been there way longer then September 2015.
          The landlord is trying it on and seeing if the OP will succumb to some pressure.

          Landlord has failed to seal a wet area- any damage occurring is his responsibility.
          Would love OP to name this scumbag agent as well.

  • +1

    Do not pay for this.It is the owners responsibility.

  • +1

    No way, Jose.

    Don't pay for it.

    Just move.

  • +1

    All's well that ends well.
    I hope it all works out for you.

  • +2

    Had an almost identical problem to you about a year ago (except we own the house, so claimed it on insurance). We had one of those swivel mixer taps develop a slow leak at its base where it goes into the sink, so over a period of time, water was leaking out, running down underneath the sink, and down the back of the wall behind the cupboards.

    Only when we cleaned out the cupboard one day did I notice the backing board buldging a bit - when we emptied out all the cupboards, the extent of the damage was evident … all the kitchen cupboards under the sink needed replacing, the benchtop (wasn't warped, but water damage was evident from the underside), and it had even seeped down into the skirting boards of the wall in the opposite room.

    Long story short, this was only a small leak, unnoticeable - but given time, it did a hell of a lot of damage. The plumber that came from the insurance company basically said the same as yours initially - common problem, leaking tap… so if they're trying to tell you "nope, you must have had a lot of water on your bench, therefore its your fault", thats a load of crap … unless you've been trying to create an in-kitchen slip & slide, by keeping your bench wet 24/7 for yonks … then it might be a different story!

    … good to hear the LL has agreed to pay for the damage though - so they bloody well should!

  • +1

    Unless you are grossly negligent then the landlord should always pay.

  • Trying not to hijack the thread, but without unnecessarily creating another.

    What happens when your bond has been returned and then you are sent a repair bill 3 weeks after vacation?

    • +2

      You tell 'em to get stuffed.

    • +1

      You throw it in the bin.

    • Thanks guys, I'll let you know how I go.

  • +2

    OP I am a landlord for many years of multiple properties, your problem should be the owner expense. You have reported the issue when you noticed it. You have the right to fight your case

    • -6

      "I am a landlord for many years of multiple properties" so my opinion trumps everyone else's.
      You should have "reported the issue when you noticed it" but since you didn't and your lack of action caused the expense, you're not likely to get out of this. However "You have the right to fight your case" - whether it's worth throwing good money after bad is another question though.

  • +1

    Excellent update! If the alternative property is on the same property block, then it would be possible that your phone line is actually sharing the same MDF (Main Distribution Frame) in which all the telephone pairs come into the block and then split off to each unit.

    If this is the case, you can get a private telecommunications technician to swap the pairs between the two units, which means that your ISP wouldn't even know that you swapped units and your phone line & internet stays the same.

    • I also thought this. It's a perfectly good idea in principle. Will it bugger up records and things down the track, though? Is there a risk that when a new tenant in his existing unit gets stuff connected that a Telstra tech will come bouncing along and disconnect his service, or will new tenant be denied service because, on paper, there's an existing service in place?

      • +1

        Yeah the records would be incorrect but what's new. It's already part of the procedures not to rely on address information, they just look for a vacant pair going into the entire premises. So let's say you move out of a property but don't disconnect your service, then the new occupiers can't actually get online without going through an annoying process to prove that they have tenancy and force the disconnection of the old service. On the other hand if there is a vacant pair it is possible to connect two phone lines to the same address, having an active service on an address is not a limiting factor.

        • I'm running cable and not adsl though, so no phone lines. It's all proprietary unfortunately…

        • @urzu: Well even easier! Just plug the modem into the existing socket and they won't know the difference :) The separation between subscribers is done at the cable modem level. Usually when wiring up buildings Telstra or Optus do all or nothing of the building, so there is a good chance that every apartment has a socket of the same company.

        • @The Land of Smeg:
          I didn't know that! Worth investigating and maybe I'll plug it my modem to see!

        • @urzu: If there is no socket and it's a Telstra plan, you can get Cable installed no strings attached for signing up for Foxtel $25 a month and then cancelling within a month, they have a no lock in contract promo at the moment.

  • +1

    TL:DR

    Had a water leak in my kitchen, told my property manager who told the owner who was being stingy and wanted me to pay. Realized that he couldn't strong arm me, I don't have to pay, considering moving to another flat but I am stealing the internet at current premises so I won't move.

    • +1

      Close but not quite. Paying for my own super fast cable internet, but telco doesn't realise they're charging me half what the plan is worth. I have decided to roll with fast cheap internet instead of a brand new kitchen :)

  • +1

    Sounds like they just tried to see if you would pay first… since you put up a small fight they are giving in. easy!

  • +1

    You live there since Sept 2015. The damage as shown in the photo definitely requires a longer period than that. Any lay person can tell. If it is brought to VCAT your landlord will simply lose the case just like that.

  • -4

    You should have been evicted.

  • So, you don't want to get stooged by the landlord but you are happy to keep stooging your ISP? You are knowingly causing them a loss… Makes now one's question your kitchen habits, really…

    • exactly.

    • You understand Internet retailers don't buy their feed by the Mb?

  • +1

    Landlord is trying his best not to pay for the damage which clearly he should be paying for. Dont allow yourself to be taken for a ride. Stand your ground firm and demand for it to be repaired.

  • -3

    I explained to him that it was leaking stronger in the beginning, so I had to apply some force to prevent the leak from expanding. As I do not have the tools to access and repair that on my own, I fail to see how this is my responsibility.

    It's your responsibility because you didn't report it earlier when you realised there was a problem. The long-term water damage was perfectly foreseeable. You were responsible for reporting it, not fixing it. Your landlord does not have a crystal ball - unless you advise them, they can't do anything about it.

    Based on this email alone they could almost certainly nail you for it, or at least some of it. You're lucky.

    I wouldn't rent to you.

    …moving will mean that my ISP will realise they are accidentally charging me half what my cost should be!

    Not only would i not rent to you, i wouldn't deal with you at all.

  • -1

    Just go straight to your equivalent residential tenancies tribunal or authority first thing tomorrow and make an appointment for a hearing (can usually be done in a matter of a couple of days at longest). Apply to have them make an order for your landlord/owner to fix it ASAP. The problem is absolutely 100% their liability and needs to get fixed at their expense as soon as possible. Make sure to to ask the hearing/panel members to also add a term to the order that they must fix the problem within 10 days or you are able to have someone of your own choosing come and fix the problem immediately at the owners expense.

    • -3

      You didn't read the whole thing - the landlord has agreed to pay for it, not that they needed to.

      Just go straight to your equivalent residential tenancies tribunal or authority first thing tomorrow and make an appointment for a hearing (can usually be done in a matter of a couple of days at longest).

      You've obviously never done this.
      You apply in writing, you don't just show up to the Tribunal and "make an appointment".

      The problem is absolutely 100% their liability…

      100% BS.
      If you have no idea what you're on about, why are you here?

      • -1

        LOL, let's play spot the imbecile!!! Check out OP's original post - he edited it like 5 times over the course of 24 hours. The owner was coming at him for costs to begin with.

        Next up genius, read the law. It's clearly 100% the owners responsibility as per S185 (3) of the RTaRA Act 2008.

        As for the tribunal - yes actually, you can walk right into the Residential Tenancies Authority in QLD and make an appointment in person. The customer service clerk will fill the paperwork out for you and you just need to sign it. You can also do it over the phone or online.

        • -2

          When you posted he'd already made the edit stating that the landlord said he'd cover it. Boom!

          The s 185 you've referred to does not necessarily apply when there is continual unreported damage associated with an obvious leak - that's basically indicated at the end of that subsection when it says "See section 217 for the tenant's obligations to notify the lessor about damage to premises and the need for repairs". That's an "obligation" - if you don't satisfy it there may be consequences. All you've done is read a section on it's own without any regard to other sections in the same Act. Or maybe you just didn't get that far either, just like you didn't get to the end of OP's post. Boom boom!!

          I'm happy to concede the third point. QLD, yep - no one is literate up there so of course you'll need someone else to fill in the forms, especially in your case where you seem to have difficulty getting to the end of a paragraph without suffering some kind of episode. Boom boom boom!!!

          Finally, thank you for denoting me a genius, and yes, i think i've spotted the imbecile. Boom boom boom boom!!!!

  • -1

    You are liable to pay for any damage to the property which is not caused by natural causes or unavoidable circumstances. If a damage to the property is caused because of your negligence you become liable as you are the occupant of the property. I had a tenant who drained oil in the kitchen sink causing a blockage in the drain. He had to pay for it. Most of the times the residential tenancy authorities will go by the word of the plumber or who assesses the damage. If they identify the cause as your negligence you will be asked to pay for it.

    • +1

      The landlord has already agreed to pay and to install a new kitchen. Keep up.

  • +1

    looks like the offer is fine, I would move to the new unit.

  • Landlord must be one stingy-dodgy slippery gypsy

    • Tenant is not that far off either, he admitted to having been paying only half of what he should be paying for internet due to ISP error..

      • +1

        My ISP put me on the wrong plan to begin with. Had to call to get them to rectify. They must've forgotten to take some discounts off. Not my fault if they can't keep track of their own systems. I'm certainly not going to ask to pay more.

  • since September 2015

    Is that a typo? You mean 2014?
    Looks like you should have reported the leak sooner. Laminate damage must have been obvious for some time.
    But he can't really expect the tenant to pay new for old. Those cabinets must be 30 years old!

    Before signing a new lease, check market rates. They may have gone down in your area.

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