An eBay Seller "Force-Shipped" My Items

Lbrokenglish on 23/03/2016 - 18:03
Last edited 25/03/2016 - 14:39 by 1 other user

WARNING: this is a very long post

TL;DR by Ikitasa here

Here is a concise summary of the main discussion in this thread by JmanNick

For those veteran eBay users, who know all of the unwritten and unspoken rules of eBay, believing that pickup MUST be paid by cash regardless of what the listing says, or what eBay has made available to the buyers
This legend took his/her time looking into eBay policies, thanks :)

Lesson for newbie eBay buyers:
If you are just following eBay transaction procedure when purchasing an item
You are making mistakes, you are annoying, you have a lot of problems, and you are the worst scum there is
Don't make the same mistakes I did by not reading into the hidden hints ;)

Reminder from El Grande for eBay sellers who are still willing to learn/re-learn

Story starts here

Today I bought three electric winches amounting $897
I really need this item like Monday 28 March, but their express shipping only guarantees delivery on the 29th.
Therefore I chose to pick up the item and paid via PayPal.

(At this time, I went on with my life as per normal, not knowing the ugly situation waiting for me)

…

Minutes later (I was driving) seller sent me a message saying:

13:10 "Sorry, pickups are for cash only. If you paid with Paypal we have to ship, you cannot pick up"

I was like what the heck? (I started going nuts here because there was nothing on the listing that states what the seller claims)

I pulled over and immediately replied to them to cancel the order and get a refund:

13:28 "We need the items to arrive by Monday. All of your shipping options only guarantee shipment next Tuesday. Please cancel our order, thanks."

You know what?

13:49 eBay notification arrived: Hi XXX - Your order has been shipped to YYY.

!@#$%^&*()!!!!!

Seller replied:

14:18 "Sorry, not much we can do now, items were already dispatched"

Yeah right…

I said to them:

14:46 "By the time this item arrived, we won't need it anymore.
I've already told you we want to pick up and won't accept shipment.
And you guys just shipped it anyway without any confirmation.
What a bunch of scammers."

^ Well, this is a very bad lesson, don't learn from me

At this stage, I called eBay for help. All eBay said to me was: contact the seller, only they can process the refund
…right…

I sent the seller another one:

15:06 "I demand a refund!
We never wanted the items to be shipped in the first place.
Why did you guys just ship the item anyway?
Did you guys even ask for a confirmation?
We already told you before you shipped the items that your shipping is taking too long and we won't need them by the time they arrive.
Please respond.
Hello?"

Seller said:

15:54 "Scammers ? We did nothing wrong, quite the opposite
Not only our listing clearly states – cash only for pick up but you didn’t even selected pick-ups at check out. If you would, you cannot pay for them.
All purchases are processed and shipped automatically"

I replied (responding to their every sentence):

16:04 "Scammers ? We did nothing wrong, quite the opposite
- Are you guys serious? Before you shipped the item, I told you guys I want to cancel my order if I can't pick the item up!
- I don't need these winches by the time they arrive because the delivery is taking too long! Which part of this did you guys not understand?
Not only our listing clearly states – cash only for pick up but you didn’t even selected pick-ups at check out. If you would, you cannot pay for them.
- We clearly did select Pickup (see attached photo).
- Where in your listing states "cash only for pickup?" Show me.
- Then instead of putting the item on hold, you just ship them anyway?
- I clearly paid via PayPal and chose Pickup didn't I?
All purchases are processed and shipped automatically
- Automatically? So the items just flew from your warehouse to AusPost? Seriously? Come on man.
Please refund me my money!"

I made this order through work computer, which snapshots every second of my session.
I sent them screenshots of evidence that I chose PayPal and Pickup (which they claim is not possible)

Seems like the seller doesn't understand a thing I said to them?

Final message from seller:

16:37 "Yes, correct only you DID not select local pick up. You selected Paypal
And your items were shipped BEFORE you said you want to cancel.
I think this discussion is over."

Which part of it is correct? OMG, I just want to cry

All I want is just my money back (well it's my employer's)
All I want is just to pickup my item. If I can't pickup my item, I want my money back (well it's my employer's)
I have already opened a PayPal dispute, but I can't escalate it until 31 March.
My client is waiting for me to install these winches on Monday 28 Mar (the winches definitely won't arrive before then)
Which means I have to buy another set of winches that I can pickup from a more reputable seller and do my job.
Which also means the delivered winches won't be of use to me when they arrive.

What do you think?
Is it my fault? Theirs?
Will PayPal side with me when the time comes?
Should I cancel this transaction through my bank instead?
Will this affect my PayPal account reputation?

UPDATE
Screenshot 1 Screenshot 2 Screenshot 3

UPDATE 2
Thanks for everyone's response :)

After one final call to PayPal, eBay, and the bank, my options are:
1. Postpone installation for another day, acknowledge the "goodwill" of the seller, accept the item when it arrives (hopefully)
2. Escalate PayPal dispute, which I can do right now without having to wait 7 days, but PayPal advised me there's a high chance PayPal will side with the seller because eBay Buyer Protection does not cover Pickup (which I wanted so vehemently) even though the seller did ship the item without my confirmation
3. Go to the bank for the dispute - this will take 60-75 days for the transaction to be reviewed and then refunded

Anyone with rational mind would go with option 1…in which I need to prepare myself for my manager's wrath (and maybe client, for breaking the contract)

UPDATE 3 - 24 Mar 10:47
Still in the dark :(
Tracking code still isn't working :(
Not sure if I should get my hopes up and expect even a delivery.
I've bought another set of winches from another seller.
Will return the shipped item if it ever arrives.
Fingers crossed for them to refund my money after I called them scammers X_X

General Discussion

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Comments

  • [Deactivated] on 24/03/2016 - 01:10
    +2

    Just wondering which software you are using that automatically takes a screenshot of every page? Is it a Google Chrome extension? I'm looking for something similar. At the moment I got an extension that I need to manually press a button on each page and sometimes I forget or don't realise in my wildest dreams that I'll ever need it.

    • brokenglish on 25/03/2016 - 12:56

      Sorry mate, I just reread the entire thread.
      It's a PC software.
      There are two kinds installed on every employee's PC - to record and to screenshot.
      I PMed you :)

      • mousie on 25/03/2016 - 19:39

        Very invasive.

        I don't think you understand what is allowed by legislation.. Have they consented to this knowingly in their employment contract?

        • brokenglish on 25/03/2016 - 21:09

          Very judgmental.

          I don't think you understand our company's policies. How would I know the existence of these software then…

        • mousie on 25/03/2016 - 21:13

          @brokenglish: Taking screen grabs of your employees screens periodically without their consent is against my values. What if they log onto their personal banking website. What protection are you providing them.

        • brokenglish on 25/03/2016 - 21:15

          @mousie: I am not sure what your intention is. I am one of the employees ._.

        • mousie on 25/03/2016 - 21:18

          @brokenglish: calling you out. It's immoral and anti Australian. Hope your boss learns the hard way. Obviously you don't get it.

        • brokenglish on 25/03/2016 - 21:21

          @mousie: Of course we know about it as it was written in the contract. Come on man, how can you just say that :(

          I assumed you would understand from the way I phrase this

          I don't think you understand our company's policies. How would I know the existence of these software then…

          Sorry my English is not as good as yours…

          This is so unrelated to the thread…

        • mousie on 25/03/2016 - 21:24

          @brokenglish: ok great.
          What's in the contract?

          That the employer takes screenshots every 5 seconds?

          What is the retention period?

          This is not about your English at all, I understand you fine.

  • noise36 on 24/03/2016 - 01:29
    +4

    Seller 100% in the wrong. You selected pickup when purchasing… Nothing else matters.

    Reject the delivery, get your money back via PayPal.

    Buy item elsewhere for your client.

    • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 06:24
      -6

      Yes it does.

      Sellers who select pick up and pay through PayPal (even when you tell them not to) are scum of the earth.

      • ashanrath on 24/03/2016 - 11:50
        +5

        I'm confused here.

        http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/buy/delivery-pickup-options.ht…

        Local pickup

        Sellers can offer a local pickup option – for example if they don't want to post large, heavy or fragile items, or they'd simply prefer to have buyers pick up the item.

        How it works
        Read the listing carefully to determine the location of the item and the postage or local pickup options the seller offers. Use the Ask a question link in the listing if you need to check on anything before buying.
        Complete your purchase on eBay. If the seller hasn't entered pickup instructions in checkout, use theContact seller link to get in touch with them.
        In addition to PayPal or a credit card, you can sometimes use a cheque, money order, cash or internet bank transfer to pay for an item when you pick it up, as specified by the seller in the listing. For more information, see our Accepted payments policy.

        With this provisio:
        http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/policies/accepted-payments-pol…

        There's only one exception: Sellers who offer payment on pickup may include the following statement in their listings: "Contact me for payment methods for paying on pickup."

        I've had a look at the ebay listing and can't find any text like that anywhere in the description. If that's not there, isn't the seller in breach of ebay policy?

        • brokenglish on 25/03/2016 - 13:15

          You're legend :)

          Not Allowed: Discouraging buyers from using any payment method the seller specified in the listing

        • MetalPhreak on 25/03/2016 - 20:45
          +1

          https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/paypal-seller-protecti…

          There's a list of acceptable shipping methods. The very first thing NOT covered under SELLER protection, is "Local pickups or deliveries made in person."

          Someone picks up an item from you, what proof do you have they actually received the goods? Do you make them sign something, take a copy of their drivers licence etc? If not, you have no standing when the buyer makes a "never received my items" claim with paypal, says you were never home for them to collect etc. Now they have their money back due to Paypal's policies and they have your item.

          Even if Paypal sides with a crooked buyer, if you have proof with drivers licence, security cam image etc, you can go to Police (they're committing fraud) or small claims court.

          I only do pickup on things that are expensive to ship (big/heavy/fragile). Otherwise it's postage only. If I do allow pickup, I put in the description "Pickup must be bank transfer or cash on the day due to Paypal Protection Policies". Occasionally I've had people pay with Paypal anyway (lots of people don't read the page description at all) and I've let it slide because it was a $50-100 item. Just had them sign an invoice when collecting as proof.

          So, I can see where the seller is coming from, seeing that it is a $1000 transaction. However, they've done a pretty shitty job of handling it. Valid reasoning but poor customer service.

        • ashanrath on 25/03/2016 - 22:17

          @MetalPhreak: And it's completely within the seller's right's to refuse to accept PayPal with pickup for this reason if they note this on the description. If they do not, and the listing has paypal and pickup available, it's the seller's fault for not specifying their policy on the listing.

        • JimmyF on 26/03/2016 - 21:13

          @brokenglish: He wasn't discouraging paypal, you can pay for it via paypal if you like, but it is shipped out.

        • MetalPhreak on 27/03/2016 - 18:58
          +1

          @ashanrath: eBay has no official official recommendation on this. As far as they're concerned, you must accept paypal for every listing. They don't care about this particular scenario, but they do let it slide if sellers put requests like that in the description (even though its technically against policy).

          As I said, the reasoning for refusing pickup is valid, but the seller is way out of line with how it was handled (and for not putting it in the description if they offer pickup)

          Shouldn't matter in a few years anyway. eBay is forcing out all of the non-commercial sellers with their big game plan to get all the big commercial players in.

    • mousie on 25/03/2016 - 19:38

      Metallica!!!

  • Mysterious on 24/03/2016 - 02:41
    +4

    PayPal doesn't cover transactions for PayPal and pick up. That's why it's "Cash On Delivery". It's a very common scam.

    I believe that you were in the wrong here initially, but the seller is definitely ridiculous for sending out the item so quickly when he knew you wanted to pick it up. It seems like he clearly knew what he was doing - he didn't want to lose a sale and refund you, so he decided to quickly post them out.

    If it's all too late and it's already been sent out, another option that you have is to buy another set and set them up for your client. When the shipped ones arrive, you can resell them (will cost you 10% + 3% fees and you'll probably need to lower the price a bit) and at least 80% of your money back overall.

    • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 06:20
      +4

      It's a seller with millions of sales though. They are moving hundreds of items per day and these orders are handled separately by a warehouse that receives these shipment commands once sellers pay through PayPal (it also says so in the item description). If you ever buy from a large Chinese seller, you'll notice your item is shipped out very, very quickly. It's not like its an individual driving down to the post office with malicious intent. They have a team of staff for this. This seller listed clearly in the item description if you paid with PayPal, they would have to ship. That is a very reasonable request for a seller. The OP failed to read, and failed to use basic human decency to realise it is too much risk for the seller.

      It's really, really easy for the buyer to start a dispute, ship the item back and get their money back so I don't get what the big deal is. PayPal always sides with the buyer.

      • Mysterious on 24/03/2016 - 15:32
        +4

        I agree that the buyer is in the wrong and the sellers mindset is right that he shouldn't accept PayPal on pickup. Personally I wouldn't allow it for any sort of sale over $50.

        But the seller messaged the buyer saying that he dispatched the items at 2:18pm. This is not a common time for a seller to dispatch their goods. Package and prepare for dispatch, yes, but not dispatch. Normally you'd make a trip to the post office just before 5pm or the red box before 6pm and I don't think the parcel collect truck would come before 2:18pm. I feel like there was enough time for the seller to cancel the order and not dispatch the items.

        I don't exactly know how the seller goes about his business but from my understanding that's how I see it.

        • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 16:27
          +1

          It's got nothing to do with supporting the seller. Who cares what the dodgy seller did - you are going to get your refund no matter what. Noone will dispute otherwise that what the seller did was wrong. I merely offered a suggestion as to why it happened, not a justification. The seller is a bad customer service scum too.

          What's more disgusting is the attitude that PayPal + pickup should be accepted, which is the topic brought up by most here. It's absolute potato logic. Also, these aren't normal sellers. They are big business with a shipping warehouse O/S. This does not excuse any aspect of the way the seller handled the situation, but it enlightens people on the mistakes that the OP made and the entitled annoying attitude he holds.

        • BartholemewH on 25/03/2016 - 16:46

          Courier collection trucks can come at any time as agreed by the shipper and the courier company, often twice a day and often more than one company is used. Your presumption that parcels are taken to the post office is laughable for any business larger than mum and dads.

        • Mysterious on 25/03/2016 - 17:20

          @BartholemewH:

          "and I don't think the parcel collect truck would come before 2:18pm"

          That's what I said. Why did you ignore that part? I know that they would use parcel collect because they sell at such a high volume, but I struggle to believe that they dispatched it just minutes later. The OP clearly said that he was driving minutes later and at 13:10 the seller should've known to be cautious sending out the item when the buyer clearly said he wants to pick it up. I just find it very hard to believe that the seller dispatched it so quickly and that he wasn't weary about the situation.

          I do agree that the buyer is wrong to assume he can PayPal and pick up but like I said, I find it hard to believe that the seller couldn't do anything about it.

        • BartholemewH on 25/03/2016 - 19:13
          -1

          @Mysterious:
          We have couriers pick up at 7am, 12 noon, 2pm and 3pm daily. So I don't find it as hard to believe. That's all I was getting at. I could attempt to have an order stopped at my work, but if it has been entered into the dispatcher and has been wrapped into a pallet 1800 high, it's going out regardless.

          Edit: To be clear, I don't mean if your order is a full pallet. In a busy warehouse envionnment, even small orders may be palletised together, or caged.

  • Kranbone on 24/03/2016 - 03:51
    +2

    If you want to pay via paypal the seller needs to have some evidence they've sent the item (via courier, post etc). Probably explains why they send it.

    • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 08:57
      +3

      Everyone here can't step in to the shoes of the seller and see this (it was even in the item description). They just expect the seller to take 100% risk. There is absolutely not a single thing stopping any buyer from just clicking two buttons and getting instantly refunded $1000 while keeping the items.

      Feel like I'm taking crazy pills here

      • brokenglish on 24/03/2016 - 09:46
        +5

        Feel like I'm taking insane pills here

        You are arguing that as soon as I chose pickup and PayPal, they are at risk?
        They still have the friggin item ffs! If they think it's risky, then don't give the item to the buyer! DON'T!

        They are not losing anything! They still have the PayPal money that I gave them!
        They should have the basic decency to refund the money if I want to (because they still have the friggin item!)

        If they are so scared then KEEP the FRIGGIN ITEM! Don't give it to me when I arrive to pick it up!
        I will then ask for a refund, they are still not losing any shyt!
        What are they losing in this situation?

        If they are still not so willing to let me PayPal and pickup, then they should have told me properly.
        In which case they didn't! They didn't want to lose this $897 sale! How are they doing that? By force shipping the friggin item to me!

        I know you are a good seller if you are willing to step up for other sellers like this.
        But I do not have the item. They have my money.
        If they don't want me to pick up, they should have told me. They did not tell me.
        I am a friggin eBay noob.
        But they shipped the item instead. That I do not want.

        Now they have my money.
        I do not have my item.
        They said they have shipped it and provided a tracking code.
        The tracking code is still invalid when checked against auspost system.

        • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 10:20
          +1

          If this were any other seller, I'd agree with you - they shouldn't have shipped the item and just cancelled the order. Except its not, its a huge eBay store which probably has different departments, and is probably located in HK/China (as almost 90% eBay stores are these days). When I purchase from a large Chinese seller like this, I expect my goods to be shipped quite fast with little time to cancel. Same if I order from ThinkGeek, Catch of the Day etc. I don't expect them to instantly cancel my order even if I message them a minute after, however it is a nice gesture if it is done. I am sure the buyer will have no problem with you shipping the item back once it arrives (and if not, eBay will allow you to do this). They told you this before you even purchased - it was in the item description that your item would be shipped if you paid by PayPal. you should read the item description, and if you intend to go against it, at least have the courtesy to message the buyer first. It is usually handled by a completely separate overseas department who receive the order then send in stock to be forwarded to AusPost or courier for final delivery. Sure, it might be a dick move and it is possible there is malicious intent (but just as possible not - because they know you can refund easy. No sane seller would 'push' something knowing that eBay will bend over backwards to get you your refund back - its likely just that this is a big company with overseas departments), but they told you that they would ship it if you did that already…

          You're losing absolutely nothing, and it was your mistake for not reading description. You're going to get your money back billion % guaranteed so relax your sax

        • JH100 on 24/03/2016 - 20:17
          +2

          @takutox:

          Seems to me the reasonable thing for the seller to do was refund the PP payment after buyer explained he needed items by Monday. Seller was wrong to just go ahead and ship after buyer selected pick-up.

          Then seller could have sold the items, picked up for cash (or whatever) and no more issue.

  • cnrmlj on 24/03/2016 - 07:32

    It annoys me when someone picks up and pays with Paypal. It means money to pay pay for 0 value and less to me.

    If you want to pick up, pay cash.

    Oh, and cash rewards still sucks (edited).

  • slknv on 24/03/2016 - 08:53
    +10

    As a seller, I've been victim of PayPal's unfair policies where A buyer paid PayPal, picked up an item and even signed a pickup receipt, them claimed they never received the item. PayPal refused to accept the signed receipt and took money out of my account, plus I lost the item sold. Screw you PayPal.

    • SnoozeAndLose on 24/03/2016 - 09:01
      +1

      Please complain to FOS which they may be able to help.

    • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 09:03
      +3

      Exactly.

      You can't expect a seller to do this. It's so easy to scam a seller out of their money and item, which is why many note in their item descriptions (as this buyer did), that they would have to ship if PayPal payment was made. This is a completely reasonable request.

  • [Deactivated] on 24/03/2016 - 09:03
    +5

    some of the reasons the seller acts like he does are due to the sad reality of selling and not necessarily a scam. I used to have an entitled buyer syndrome, then started selling a bit and there are reasons for sellers doing certain things.

    To be honest this event described sounds more like a 'racing incident' that needs goodwill to sort out. I am not a full time seller, but I need to be 100% flexible to keep everything happy and it's exhausting and fees are a drain.

    • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 09:34
      +4

      Yep. It's really unfortunate that most of the buyers here will never know this until they sell.

  • tomsco on 24/03/2016 - 09:57
    +4

    My 2c…

    • First thing to note, looking at another listing (as the one in reference seems to be removed), the note in shipping/pick up says "You can pick-up from warehouse and pay cash here". Now to me that doesn't read cash only on pick up, but merely offers this as another option.

    • With all else equal, the OP did select pick up as indicated in the screen shot, and no doubt this would have been documented in the email/notification sent to the seller. The fact they called saying Paypal is for postage only (acknowledging he selected pick up) and then proceed to lie and said he selected postage is already showing a major flaw in any argument they may have.

    • I recognise now that there is a concern (from this thread) for a seller that offers PayPal for pick ups. To be honest, I thought a few years back that PayPal would provide seller protection - I must have it confused with something else.

    • In regards to the above point - would I pay cash on pick up? If it's a well established company with a physical address, yes. If it's a private seller, depending on the value and the complexity of the item, no. But I don't believe I would be in a position where I could not have the item shipped to me, like the OP's situation.

    • In regards to this seller vs buyer mentality, as Frugal Rock mentioned, you're not necessarily going to be exposed to this unless you start to sell. That's why as a seller, if you find yourself in this predicament, don't go abusing buyers for being uncompassionate, advise the seller your reason for not accepting Paypal for pick ups. If they don't agree, then cancel the sale and move on.

    • As far as the policy, it is an eBay policy. Yes eBay sellers pay fees to use their infrastructure, but they are also using it for the great exposure it can bring. This is the risk you take (the old risk vs return argument). If you do not want to agree to the policies on eBay, then you are not obliged to advertise your goods on their website.

    • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 10:32
      +3

      It says it in the item description. How about the buyer open their eyes and read the description, and contact the seller before paying?

      There is a reasonable amount of risk that a seller ought to be assumed to take. Through PayPal and shipping eBay already heavily favors the buyer. To bash sellers for not wanting to take ultimate risk just because an eBay policy says so is really silly. The only reason eBay forces the option of allowing the buyer to pay with PayPal (need at least one electronic option) is to stop a swarm of alternate scammers - those who only will put cash on pickup listings selling dodgy items. That is the major reason WHY eBay has this option in place, not to force sellers to take 100% risk. It just happens as a byproduct that this silly option must be enabled, even though it is actively discouraged by eBay (no protection).

      And yes, eBay themselves DISCOURAGE doing this and note you have NO PROTECTION. But if they were to allow listings with no PayPal option, there would be a lot more risk for the buyers, and for a different reason. So it makes sense that they are forcing PayPal, and it is up to the buyer to come to an understanding with the sellers in the OPs situation by paying cash and sharing the risk.

  • exc3113nce on 24/03/2016 - 10:05

    As a seller I often print out postage stamps as soon as orders come in. Keep in mind this is what could have happened. He may have seen your order and paid the postage with courier pick up at a later date.

    If you selected Pick-Up I'm not sure why he would post it.

  • BargainKen on 24/03/2016 - 10:10
    +2

    I dont generally side with ebay sellers but I'm taking their side on this one, as mentioned its very easy to scam a seller with PP/Pickup option. I was in a similar situation when I sold an iPad years ago, being naive I read about this online as the buyer was coming to pickup. I had the buyer sign something to say item was pickup along with a copy of their ID just incase, reading the PP policy its probably worthless but took that precaution anyway.

    Buyer could have easily raised PP dispute but that didnt come to fruition so fortunate there but never again. Since then I've purchased items of ebay offering to pickup/cash (paid with PP but the seller could easily refund that and proceed with a cash transaction) as they were literally in the next suburb to me but they refused and item was shipped. Took a week mind you but I wasnt in some mad rush so I didnt mind, just thought it was stupid going thru the post system.

    If you need an item in a mad rush try to plan ahead as best you can but dont expect a seller to put their ass on the line for your convenience, negotiate with them or purchase elsewhere. I agree that there's an obvious glaring gap in the PP seller protection policy about pickups and disputes but that wont be fixed anytime soon, given its split from ebay and is its own entity now.

    • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 10:46

      In regards to the person in the next suburb to you, it's not stupid because they have more protection and are reasonably staying within eBay's rules. I would also ship the item in the same scenario, instead of refunding the person. It's more of an inconvenience to refund the amount and organise a time wasting pickup outside of eBay (especially if he didn't note this as an option in his listing which he didn't). Most eBay sellers head to the post office everyday anyway. You were asking him to go outside eBay policy when he didn't have pickup in his listing.

      • BargainKen on 24/03/2016 - 10:49

        Yeah its fine, I didnt really give a shit either way, I go thru there everyday so whether it came in the post or if I picked it up along my daily commute it made no difference. I wasnt in a rush to get the item.

  • gautamp on 24/03/2016 - 10:29

    As a friend of a eBay seller and helping him build his store i can say that there are some loopholes in the system like paying online, picking up the item and then going back to paypal/ebay and register a not received the item. That is a seller views

    In your case i would just hold it even if i have paid for the shipping (of course a little more effort going back and cancelling that shipping label, which he anyways did discussing it with you) and ask you to come and pickup with some identity proof without causing any stress both the ends. Looks to be a seller who does not care about their customers.

    With 100% customer ebay score, i am proud to say Customer is always first and business need to be flexible if you want to survive the competition.

  • deepblonde on 24/03/2016 - 10:42

    So any updates? Did seller/ courier try to deliver and did you reject delivery?

    • brokenglish on 24/03/2016 - 10:44

      Nope, still in the dark :(
      Tracking code still isn't working :(
      Not sure if I should get my hopes up and expect even a delivery.

      • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 10:53
        +1

        Your item is being shipped to Australia from an overseas warehouse. Unlikely you're going to receive it that quickly.

        Its normal for the tracking not be updated because it hasn't actually been forwarded to the courier/auspost yet.

        • xuqi on 25/03/2016 - 02:00

          And when it does make it OZ post, 99% of the time it won't track anyway.

  • Shaw on 24/03/2016 - 10:50
    +1

    Just curious, haven't read the thread, just the OP, but have you contacted Aus Post?

    There may be a chance it'd arrive earlier at the local depot, and you could arrange picking it up there.

    • brokenglish on 24/03/2016 - 10:51

      Even though tracking code still still says invalid? Would AusPost have a more reliable information than the tracking code?
      I will try my local depot.

      I did enquire to auspost in a similar situation where I wanted to pick up the item from auspost, they told me if the tracking code still isn't working they have nothing too?

      • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 10:54
        +1

        It's an overseas shipment and AusPost is the final link in the chain. You aren't going to get any information about it.

        This is just the reality of eBay nowadays, and is completely legal in the sense that eBay will do nothing about it even though it is listed as an Australian item location (they're allowed to get it from an overseas warehouse if it is 'out of stock' in Australia which it always is).

        • Shaw on 24/03/2016 - 10:55

          Item location:
          Derrimut , VIC, Australia

          Seems like it's in the same state?

        • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 10:56
          +3

          @Shaw:

          Nope, only the listing shows the item in Australia, but its superficial.

          About 90% of stores these days showing an Australian location are actually shipping from overseas by a Chinese/HK group. You can take that up with eBay, but they know and don't care.

        • Shaw on 24/03/2016 - 10:57
          +1

          @takutox:

          Definitely not disputing that, but in this case wouldn't the item need to be in the country for it to be picked up at short notice? Or is the view that they simply didn't have it, hence the lack of pickup discussion?

        • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 10:58

          @Shaw:

          It's not picked up at short notice though, your item is still going to have to be shipped from overseas. In a few days or so, the seller will notify the buyer that it is ready to be picked up. This avoids the final link in the chain of AusPost/courier but still takes time.

        • Shaw on 24/03/2016 - 11:04

          @takutox:

          Not in this case it isn't, but offering cash on pickup, I'd assume you'd have the ability to pick up that/next day. I'd be pretty pissed if I needed and wanted to pickup that day and was told I had to wait.

          None of this helps OP though, and I still feel Auspost is the way to go, once that has failed, then other options should be considered.

        • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 11:09
          +2

          @Shaw:

          That's just the reality of things. You need to realise that the big stores are mostly all overseas sellers.

          It's not even a requirement that the seller offer pickup the same/next day. If you want same/next day pickup and just assume without messaging the buyer, you have no reason to get pissed..

        • brokenglish on 24/03/2016 - 11:16

          @takutox:
          ^ true. that is my partly fault…

      • Mikinoz on 24/03/2016 - 10:54

        Sounds to me like it hasn't been picked up and is still at the sellers despatch

      • Shaw on 24/03/2016 - 10:54

        Yes, they may be. I haven't used Aus Post for years, since I lived over there, but often tracking can be a bit unreliable.

        If you have no luck with the depot, give their national number a call. I'd be taking that avenue rather than worrying about anything else at this stage, because there is still time to get it hurried up if it's been shipped.

      • PVA on 24/03/2016 - 21:31

        if its Auspost, ask them on Twitter and they will reply to you.
        I did this for a parcel as tracking said something that was clearly wrong, asked on their twitter account and they came back later that day with where the parcel was.

  • ronnknee on 24/03/2016 - 10:59

    The seller is wrong by saying that you HAVE to pay cash on pickup and posting the item when there's clearly a problem. The correct action for him (so that both parties are satisfied) would've been cancelling the order and issuing a refund, then ask you to go purchase from him directly.

    You also should've messaged him beforehand to organise pickup time/location, so that if he had any other terms, then he could spell them out for you. In addition, you have a deadline and it's almost Easter long weekend. Don't assume he'd be free. He could not be operating during the long weekend and you may end up having to pick up on Tuesday anyway! Luckily, this wasn't the case but you can see what potential problems could arise by not communicating prior purchasing.

    The seller is at fault but this drama could've been prevented if you had just messaged them before purchasing and clarified what you want and what they can offer.

    What you can do now is to make a separate order and pickup in person. You probably would want to ask a friend to message them through their account and ask for pickup details. When the original order comes, reject the delivery and claim a refund through PayPal. The seller loses out on postage but you will be fine, and this is the best case for everyone.

    • brokenglish on 24/03/2016 - 11:02

      What you can do now is to make a separate order and pickup in person. You probably would want to ask a friend to message them through their account and ask for pickup details. When the original order comes, reject the delivery and claim a refund through PayPal. The seller loses out on postage but you will be fine, and this is the best case for everyone.

      The latter is what I am planning to do :)
      I already bought what I want from another seller and my guy is picking it up right now.
      I will reject the original delivery when it arrives.
      The company's also discussing if we should return the item in person to have a better chance of getting our $897 back.
      But the seller may argue that it's been tampered or whatsover - fair enough after I called them scammers
      Hahaha, we'll see how it goes…

  • takezo on 24/03/2016 - 11:04

    Why not just purchase a second set of winches (by pick up COD) from the same seller, and then return the other one's later on? Win for everyone, other than having to make a second trip to the store.

    • brokenglish on 24/03/2016 - 11:10
      +1

      That's what I'm planning to do, but my manager already doesn't like this seller.
      He never liked the company buying stuff online because situation like this could happen.
      There's no choice this time because there's no local shop selling the item we specifically need.

      If takutox's comment is true, it is very likely that the seller won't let me pick up the item straight away should I choose to make another order to pay cash on pickup.
      The item might be sourced from overseas and their so-called local store is just a warehouse.

      We will return the shipped item to the seller if it ever arrives.

      • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 11:26
        +1

        Yeah, don't bother. You aren't going to get it in time.

        You'll need to find an actual local seller and communicate with them beforehand.

  • Ikitasa on 24/03/2016 - 11:14
    +7

    My thoughts - I think a lot of people are missing the point here. Yes the whole PayPal and pickup can expose the seller, but the seller's communication seems to be lacking greatly in this instance. Seller clearly states 'You can pick-up from warehouse and pay cash here (no Eftpos)', but sends out the items even though buyer chooses pickup and Paypal without confirming anything with the buyer??

    Instead of waiting for a reply to their "Sorry, pickups are for cash only. If you paid with Paypal we have to ship, you cannot pick up" message, they just send out anyway??

    A reasonable seller would have questioned the buyer about why they chose pickup and Paypal and explained that was not an option and what the buyer would like to do. Or at least allowed the buyer to respond to their initial message.

    • brokenglish on 24/03/2016 - 11:14
      +2

      You are the man (or wo-man) :)

    • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 11:25
      -2

      This might be true for any small or medium seller or individual, but you have to take into account the reality of things when you hit a huge hundreds of thousands sale Chinese/HK business. It's an overseas international seller that has hundreds of orders processed internationally daily on both the Australian and overseas sides. When you hit something of that scale, it becomes more difficult to 'stop' orders. Not to mention, what would happen is clearly stated in the item description and there is an enormous lack of contact and consideration from the buyer's side, even moreso than the seller's side. Not going to step in here and say that this seller was a saint, but the OP has more problems than the seller does. The seller did exactly as promised :)

      • Ikitasa on 24/03/2016 - 11:40
        +1

        I think you have already stepped in a fair bit generally :)

        The seller is in Derrimut? Isn't that right near Scumshine? in Victoria, Australia? Unless I'm missing something? And I didn't say they needed to 'stop' the order, but you would think that if they are such a big business that their processes would have a way of handling buyers that choose the pickup and Paypal option - rather than send them a generic email and send the item out anyway??

        A fair expectation would be for the seller to at least wait for a response to their generic email or to advise the buyer that paypal and pickup is not available (as advised in the item description) and what would they like to do?

        • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 11:43
          -1

          Yes, that process is called assuming goodwill of the buyer not being scum and purposely selecting PayPal while ignoring the item description which is very clear.

          And no, the seller's items are not located in Australia. Get over it, 90% of eBay stores are like this these days.

        • Ikitasa on 24/03/2016 - 11:47
          +1

          @takutox:

          I'm not speaking for the buyer or defending the buyer, all I am saying is that if someone had bought something from me and I stated, "'You can pick-up from warehouse and pay cash here (no Eftpos)" which actually isn't very clear as you say - it just says Eftpos not available.

          The buyer may have made an honest mistake by choosing paypal and pickup - my issue is that the seller just sent out the item anyway without giving the buyer time to reply.

        • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 11:49

          @Ikitasa:

          Dude, he's talking about EFTPOS, thats a completely separate issue. It is important info that EFTPOS is not available when picking up as that is vital for the buyer to know. It's obvious that the seller intended the buyer to pick up and pay cash at the warehouse. No reasonable buyer would expect a seller to do otherwise.

          And who really cares, its a big seller from overseas and this is expected to happen. I'm not going to buy from COTD and then cry when they ship my item out within an hour because I didn't ask a simple question before I bought.

        • Ikitasa on 24/03/2016 - 11:57
          +1

          @takutox:

          Wow. Either you or I are smoking the good stuff. I cannot see anything that says cash only for pickups and if paid by paypal it would be shipped. All I can see is the EFTPOS line under the Shipping/Pickup tab.

          And you say they're a big overseas seller? but they clearly advise they're Based in Australia, and has been an eBay member since 27 Feb, 2006 and the item location is in Derrimut? Am I looking at a different eBay site to you?? Or are you indeed smoking the good stuff and wanting to argue from behind your keyboard?? :)

        • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 12:07

          @Ikitasa:

          Sure, they said that one could pick up from warehouse and pay cash. It's not ultra super clear (and they can't really put a huge sign that says to not pay by PayPal due to eBay rules), but its a huge hint that you should be paying cash if you're picking up. If this is not clear, you should inquire with the buyer beforehand. Like I said earlier, its an unspoken rule that you should not be doing PayPal + pickup if you're a buyer/seller. eBay itself discourages doing this and notes no protection.

          Sure, the seller was in the wrong for shipping the item off anyway, but its understandable given the size of the store and the necessity of protecting oneself against scammers. Both are in the wrong, but the buyer is moreso. Did not contact the seller even though they required urgent pickup and committed a faux pas of doing PayPal + pickup without asking.

          And no, the majority of stock for that store is located overseas. They do have an Australian warehouse, but most of the items that are bought are stored and shipped from an overseas warehouse. Whether you want to accept that or refuse it because of the superficial location you see is up to you. Shipping only takes a few days regardless - but this is not going to happen on an Easter long weekend anyway. Even expecting pickup at such a short notice is unreasonable.

        • Ikitasa on 24/03/2016 - 12:42
          +5

          @takutox:

          Oh I am glad it wasn't me smoking the good stuff after all! :)

          I didn't think I was going crazy!

          I also never knew in the all the years of using eBay that I needed to have knowledge of hints, unspoken rules, faux pas', ESP and innuendo. Is there a 'Using eBay for Dummies' that contains all of this as I clearly have been using eBay wrong for a long time!

          I also never knew that when people say on eBay "Based in Australia, bit_deals has been an eBay member since 27 Feb, 2006" and "Item location: Derrimut , VIC, Australia" they actually meant majority of stock is located overseas and they have a 'superficial location' - oh is that the ESP and hints and unspoken rules we all should know about?

        • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 12:45
          -5

          @Ikitasa:

          dealwithit.jpg

          thats what eBay is like nowadays. all the big non-retail sellers list as Aus, but are actually being shipped from O/S

          and all you need to know is that PayPal + pickup = potato. its not hard at all, all you need is a modicum of logical function in your brain to know that the buyer can press a button and get their money back, and keep the item.

          its not rocket science

          oh, and i didnt realise asking important questions before buying was such a hard ask. the average level of intelligence and human decency must have really dropped.

        • Ikitasa on 24/03/2016 - 12:53
          +1

          @takutox:

          Are these big non-retail sellers using the lure of saying they are located in Oz to sell to unsuspecting buyers? That's a bit unfair if you ask me. Or is it a tax-dodge or some other scheme?

          And all you need to know that if this 'potato' exists, then sellers should communicate to their buyers and offer alternatives…instead of just shipping out items willy-nilly!

        • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 12:58
          -4

          @Ikitasa:

          yes. eBay don't care about it though. its probably a combination of tax dodge and increasing sales towards australian buyers. I don't support/agree with it, I was simply stating the reality so the OP doesn't waste their time by buying again. i dislike this alot, but theres nothing i can do about it. I also don't expect anyone to know this until they've been stung by it, this is why I am educating. Usually a lack of grammar and long times for shipping to be updated = overseas. Not all sellers are based O/S, but this one is. it is allowed within eBay rules to source stock from O/S warehouse.

          yes the seller was in the wrong too but the OP is guaranteed his money and shipping money back, so who cares.. OP is acting like they're getting scammed. i guarantee you the seller does not think they can 'get away' with shipping the item anyway - it is more likely a bad seller protocol in combination with lack of communication with overseas departments. it is very easy to open a dispute and get your money back.

          if we look at the buyers actions though.. the sellers actions pale in comparison. time waster, inconsiderate, entitled, expecting PayPal + pickup scam method to be accepted.

          its not hard to be considerate and completely neglect the PayPal + pickup option. it is a nightmare for sellers to have to deal with it. some will cancel the transaction, some will 'force ship' it. but either way, the buyer shouldn't have done it in the first place without asking, especially with such a large value item.

        • Ikitasa on 24/03/2016 - 13:12
          +4

          @takutox:

          Ok I don't disagree with some of what you say, but I think you seem very seller focused…whereas I am trying to look at it from both perspectives.

          If I bought an item that I thought I could pickup and use paypal for (okay I now know it's called a potato in this unwritten eBay rule book, but if eBay allows me to do it, and I chose those options, I would follow the instructions on the checkout and confirmation pages which states "Hi - Order Confirmed. Please arrange pickup from your seller".
          I would have emailed or contacted the seller arranging pickup. At which point the seller would have advised this wasn't available as I chose PayPal, etc, etc. Ideally, the seller would have given me alternative options and confirmed addresses, etc before sending out the item. But this was never done.

          If I was a seller that sold an item and the buyer chose a method I didn't advise was available I would at least inform the buyer this and offer a solution/alternative. The fact that the seller informed the buyer this wasn't on, and left it at that, and then shipped the item - makes them the greater of two evils as you say. If you want to operate on eBay you need to be able to use basic communication skills to other parties.

    • smpantsonfire on 24/03/2016 - 11:39

      WIth paypal protection, you pretty much have to send it by post for all parties to be safe.

      • Ikitasa on 24/03/2016 - 11:42
        +1

        Agree. But why not just wait for the Buyer to reply to your generic email?

        • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 11:47

          No idea what generic email you're talking about.

          It wasn't a generic email. It was a message. Also, it already stated this was what would happen in the item description. When you click buy you commit to buy and pay through PayPal - you've committed don't ask your fking questions after and EXPECT the seller to bend over and cancel the order for you while you are free to give them feedback.

          Even if this was a completely normal seller it would be unreasonable to pay first and then ask 'can i pick this item up by tomorrow'. This is the kind of inconsiderate customer who makes the seller pull their hair out.

        • Ikitasa on 24/03/2016 - 12:05
          +1

          @takutox:

          So you're saying that "Sorry, pickups are for cash only. If you paid with Paypal we have to ship, you cannot pick up" wasn't a generic email/message whatever it was?

          If a person had written that message, a reasonable seller would have asked the question about what the buyer would like to do or given them options?

          I don't see why you have such anger towards the buyer. So they did something that eBay allowed them to do. So they didn't read the ambiguous item description. He forked out his hard earned with the intention of picking up an item - if he was mistaken or wrong and that wasn't allowed/available by the seller so what? The seller should have contacted the buyer to advise something as simple as "Sorry, pickups are for cash only. If you paid with Paypal we have to ship, you cannot pick up. What you would like to do?". Give the buyer some options…far out.

        • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 12:11

          @Ikitasa:

          If he required an urgent pickup, he should be contacting the seller beforehand regardless. The buyer should suck up his own mistake as he is going to get his money back anyway. He won't even be affected much or at all.

          That message was not generic - it was written by the seller. It is difficult to automate eBay messages, but you can automate emails to their PayPal address. Is it the ideal way the seller dealt with it? No. But what the buyer did/is doing is the greater of two evils.

  • Gershom on 24/03/2016 - 11:33
    +6

    Calling someone a scammer right out of the blocks is not a grown up way of resolving issues. You put everyone into an adversarial position from the get go. You may well be the innocent party in all this, but you need to calm down, being innocent is not a licence to abuse the other party.

    Remember, by definition, 50% of the population is below average intelligence. They make mistakes. Which half are you in?

    • brokenglish on 24/03/2016 - 11:49

      Below average intelligence

    • Ikitasa on 24/03/2016 - 12:00
      +1

      Yeah I'd agree with that. The buyer could have addressed the matter in a better way.

    • [Deactivated] on 24/03/2016 - 12:15
      +1

      50% of the population are actually below 'median' intelligence. Averages are affected by outliers and bias. You've said 'by definition' when it's not certain and statistically highly unlikely.

  • smpantsonfire on 24/03/2016 - 11:38
    +2

    Paypal + Pickup? You're a dirty filthy scammer. That's not how it works.

    • Ikitasa on 24/03/2016 - 11:41

      I don't disagree with you there that that isn't how it works, but my concern is that the seller just sent out the item without allowing the buyer an alternative option.

  • tomsco on 24/03/2016 - 12:09
    +2

    Takutox, you clearly have quite a bias here. Now I'm not saying the OP is completely innocent, but where it states "You can pick-up from warehouse and pay cash here (no Eftpos)", that can fairly be interpreted as paying cash on pick up is an option, not a requirement.

    You compare to COTD, but let apples be apples, you are not going to place an order for pickup from COTD.

    If the OP placed the order, and expected immediate pickup only for the seller to say it's not available till the order's processed, then the OP wouldn't have a gripe. As it stands, the ad says the item is listed in Victoria - any reasonable person would assume that as soon as the order has been processed in their system, that it will be fine to pick up (once again, allowing for processing time).

    All this talk about communication, but the whole concept of e-commerce to me means that processes are automated. The checkout system allowed the OP to put in a pick up order through Paypal. The onus is not on the OP to know this is incorrect (remember, the statement in the listing does not say cash **only on pickup).

    As I said, if the OP placed the order and rocked up to pick up, fair enough if the seller said it takes 48 business hours to process, but that's not the case. And regardless, if they are offering free shipping by the 30/3 (within 4 business days), one would expect to be able to pick it up sooner, otherwise what is the benefit of travelling to pickup.

    • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 12:20
      +1

      Sure, it is true that eBay will allow PayPal either way and that you can't clearly put in the listing 'don't pay with PayPal', only hint at it. But there is an unspoken agreement and even discouragement by eBay itself that you shouldn't employ methods such as this with no buyer or seller protection. Cash + pickup is the most reasonable shared risk treatment. If you're an eBay newbie and try to do PayPal + pickup, don't cry when the seller 'forces' shipping on you to protect themself.

      Apples be apples, it is the same issue. The OP is making a purchase order BEFORE knowing whether the item is able to be picked up tomorrow. How about you ask that very important question first before committing to a purchase? and not cry when the seller doesn't bend to your every whim when you have clearly wasted their time and energy.

      The seller does not need to allow pickup instantly, nor does picking up mean you will get your item faster than shipped, nor does it mean you should be able to pick up the item by tomorrow. It merely means that you want to pick the item up. If you require an urgent time to pick up the item, you need to contact the seller beforehand instead of wasting their time.

      It's not really bias because the OP has a 100% chance to get his money back. He's not even anywhere near 'scammed'. It doesn't even matter how 'bad' the seller is because the buyer is going to get their money back.. so who cares really.. OP has committed a bigger faux pas than the seller, regardless of how bad the seller dealt with the situation, it will always be ruled in favour of OP. No need at all to chuck a hissy fit about it. People who pay for their order first and then ask questions or state requirements afterwards are definitely on the top 5 list of the most annoying people ever.

      • Ikitasa on 24/03/2016 - 13:24
        +1

        The real issue I see here isn't about the pickup aspect at all and when the buyer wanted to pickup the item, etc. It is about the fact that the seller shipped the item off to the buyers eBay/PayPal address even though the buyer selected pickup. He committed to buy the item based on pickup.

        If there was any confusion or doubt (or potato), the seller should have contacted and confirmed things with the buyer. The buyer chose pickup and therefore wouldn't have checked that the address on his eBay/Paypal account was correct (as he wasn't expecting a delivery at all).

        That is what frustrates me with eBay sellers. Their lack of communication.

        • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 13:44

          No, that is the issue that OP brought up. In the grand scheme of things it is insignificant because OP is guaranteed a refund. The real issue is that of the annoying actions of the OP and those in that thread that expect PayPal + pickup to be required due to policy. The seller is in the wrong too, don't get me wrong at all. I'm explaining his actions not justifying them. On the other hand forcing someone to accept PayPal and pickup (or you'll cancel) is a douche move. At the very least you can ask for refund and to pick up the item instead. And at the very least ask important questions or requirements BEFORE you pay.

    • brokenglish on 24/03/2016 - 13:17

      Well everyone in my company agrees that he might be related to the seller (80%) :) Let him make his point

      • Ikitasa on 24/03/2016 - 13:26
        +3

        Yes sounds very defensive…at least you now know about all hints, unspoken rules, faux pas', ESP and innuendo you need to know about buying on eBay. Maybe you can document them down for anyone at your company wanting to use eBay in the future! :)

        • brokenglish on 24/03/2016 - 13:35

          Yeah, mostly thanks to takutox ;)

      • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 13:47

        Yeah yeah heard it all before. Until you start selling you'll never understand.

        Let me give you a hypothetical. Someone buys a $1000 item off you and pays through PayPal, selecting pickup. You'd let them pickup right? Because eBay policy says so! Lol, if you say you'd cancel you're a dirty hypocrite for doing this to a seller in the first place. If you say you'd accept it and let them pick up you're gullible as all hell.

        Also lol at spam when only one piece of knowledge is required - having basic logic knowing seller has full risk. Your argument about having to know thousands of rules (trouble counting to one?) is worthless and shows lack of human decency.

        • Ikitasa on 24/03/2016 - 14:02
          +2

          Your hypothetical is flawed from the outset. Someone buys a $1000 item off me. I would want to make sure I confirmed delivery/pickup whatever with the buyer before shipping.

          I wouldn't allow pickup but I certainly would confirm where I am sending to, before sending, if the buyer chose pickup!!

          You specifically mentioned unwritten rules, faux pas and hints within item descriptions, not me.

          And the OPs douche move fell on deaf ears anyway as the seller had shipped the item before the OP had sent the cancellation message. So he never had the chance to ask for refund and to pick up the item instead as you advise…the horse had already bolted.

        • takutox on 24/03/2016 - 14:08
          -1

          @Ikitasa:

          It's not flawed at all, what the seller did in this situation is irrelevant to my hypothetical. Bringing it up is attacking a strawman, which you are doing.

          So you're saying you wouldn't offer pickup at all in that situation? Still retarded as you are a hypocrite buying it through that method anyway fully aware of the risk to the seller (you wouldn't do it yourself). You lose.

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