457 Visa to be abolished - thoughts?

As the title suggest, government will be abolishing 457 Visa.

First of all, I will wait until it happens. I have seen Turnbull announcing a lot of things only to realise that he can't do it due to political pressure or incompetency. But lets assume that it will happen this time, what do you think of this?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-18/government-abolishing-...

(Edit: Link to the article added)

Poll Options expired

  • 92
    A) Best move ever by Turnbull
  • 242
    B) Turnbull is just trying to save his job by doing so
  • 15
    C) Just one of those plans which will not be executed
  • 22
    D) Who cares

Comments

  • +20 votes

    It looks like it will get replace with something similar in the future. This has been a while coming and I think that a lot of people will agree that the 457 program has lost its focus over the last decade. Wait and see what they come up with to replace it before lauding this decision.

    • +51 votes

      I seem to recall reading that Australia currently has an oversupply of nursing grads.

      • +14 votes

        I know loads of nurses that struggled to find permanent employment straight after graduating and then within the first 3-5 years after continuous contract positions.

        • +6 votes

          Depends on the location they looking after I guess. Doctors and nurses has been always short on rural area AFAIK.

        • +6 votes

          @moonphase: Same for teachers. Until the government actually increase rural salaries for staff to stay long term, they just return to the city after a few years. I presume this is similar to nurses. Pay them more. God knows tbey deserve it! I have so much respect for each and every nurse out there.

        •  

          @bhm133: This is an issue NSW state office is currently facing and having trouble addressing. The local schools local decisions reform has a component which tries to identify location disadvantages and provide funding to help alleviate these issues. However, as with most government initiatives, the funding model currently requires more work in order to address these funding inequities effectively.

        • +1 vote

          @bhm133: No… It's not just about the pay but more to rural developments.

          If the rural area get developed and fill gaps between the high density area + higher salary to attract people, then we'll get more here.

          There was some job post that someone running the small practice on rural area looking for a doctor to fill up the short hands. The position offer was even higher than the owner takes + free house rent + 20+ leaves.

          Guess what, no one applied for six months. There was no follow up after then, but this is what is happening.

      • +2 votes

        Oversupply in inner areas, shortage in rural areas. People rather die than move further away.

      •  

        @BigTed: You have read it correctly. There is oversupply of nursing grads and we need experienced nurses to fill positions in critical care and acute medicine.

      • +1 vote

        As others suggested it depends the area you are looking for. Metro areas has supply but nurses are not ready to move to regional areas. I know few nurses, one had to move to NT with family (state sponsored her). They choose to settle there. Unfortunately that is now what most are ready to do.

        Problem with us is that we do not want to leave comfort zone to find jobs in our specialty areas and easily find something to blame.

        We need same mentality that immigrants has, which is to keep open mind and be ready to move/do that is needed to get the job.

  • +1 vote

    E) Shit idea + B & C, in one.

  • +6 votes

    I don't see anything particularly negative with it. This can create an opportunity to re-focus the aim of the 457.

  •  

    Bill Shorten promised a future Labor government would "crack down on dodgy" 457 visas.

    •  

      I think that's a very different thing. The 457 system as it/was definitely needed/needs better policing. In fact some would say that was the #1 thing it needed. By announcing different visa classes Turnbull gets to appeal to the far-right / xenophobes without spending/promising anything extra on policing (which is what's really needed)

  • +12 votes

    They are just renaming it, now it's 458

  • +5 votes

    the same backdoors will open with the "new" visa…

  • +14 votes

    Wouldn't be surprised if it's the exact same program in practice, just under a different title. The Coalition won't want to piss off big business by taking up access to a cheaper labour supply. At the same time there are <100k of 457 workers, so any effect it'll have on wages or employment seems minimal.

    • +2 votes

      "big business by taking up access to a cheaper labour supply."
      You got that 100% correct. How many "Skilled" developer from India / China on a 457 visa are pushing the salaries down and taking up jobs?

      •  

        That's also my concern with the 457. A company says "we can't find anyone for the role in Australia". No kidding, because you offer below market rates for the role. I'm not sure the 457 has a requirement on employers to show they have offered the job in Australia at market rates, but if there isn't any clause there certainly should be in the replacement.

        •  

          Last time I was here, was on 457 visa, and at that time it was a minimum of around 60K as software developer.
          My job was paid $70/h. Back in 2000. Very different today.

      • +1 vote

        You wouldn't even believe the skill level some of these people have. Holy hell. I work at a university and I've encountered a huge number of postgraduate students from India and the like with literally no idea what they're doing. Even the most basic, elementary HTML, CSS and JS and they can't wrap their head around it. Despite having a degree in CS from whatever university back home. I must look like an idiot every time my eyes nearly burst out of my head when someone says "this is all new to me, I've never done any programming".

        On the other hand, I've met some super talented undergraduate students from India.

        I just don't know what the hell goes on in some of those universities that allows someone who spent three years in CS to walk away saying they've never even touched web development or even C or C++.

        What the hell?!

        • +1 vote

          Apparently in some countries you could literally pay your way through uni e.g. bribe lecturers to get a pass results. In the end those degrees are pretty much worthless.

          Source: I had a lecturer from one of those countries who would complain about this during our lectures at uni.

  • +10 votes

    To be replaced by 2 other visa types
    same old crap from this mob

  • +12 votes

    if the system worked properly it would be good so that we can fill in the gaps that "australians either dont want or are not qualified/capable".

    i know a heap of people that abuse the system especially in hospitality who sponsor people from overseas in return for piles of cash under the table (50k plus) and they do it repeatedly.

    it will be interesting to see what changes they make.

    a bit hypocritical from liberals to say jobs for australians but cut the education budget at every opportunity, close tafes and support small private colleges that are dubious.

    •  

      They will find another loop hole. There was always been and some fails but never heard that it disappeared.

  • +20 votes

    Turnbull is trying to divert attention. He's even adopting Trump tactics, using FB to announce and slogans like Australia first.

    • -1 vote

      traditional media has everything geared towards winning of the democrats, and never once stopped bashing and focusing on the tiny mistakes and comments that Trump made in the past. In order to bypass the biased media, he did use social media more than anyone else, and had direct connection with the mass population.
      http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/13/13619148/trump-facebook-t...
      Trump did well, extremely well. Not sure about Tumbull, however.

      • +1 vote

        Turnbull is Mr Internet!

      • +1 vote

        Jesus Christ you're delusional. You mean the "tiny mistakes" like boasting about sexually assaulting women while being recorded? He wasn't forced to bypass the media - he's merely an egotistical narcissist who needs to see the large numbers of likes underneath his barely literate rants.

        Name one good/competent thing of note he did that the mainstream media refused to cover. Just one will do.

        • +2 votes

          I dunno… the $86 billion dollars he's saved in regulatory costs in his first 3 months? The estimated 40% drop in illegal border crossings? 5 year/lifetime lobbying bans on government officials (probably covered by the MSM)? Approximately 500k new jobs since January (some may attribute some of that to Obama)? Increased funding to NASA including Mars exploration? Donation of his salary? Executive Orders to get more women into STEM… crackdown on cartels and human trafficking? Attempted to simplify the health system and get more competition into the market? All these 'good' and 'bad' things can be debated until the cows come home depending on your political leanings. I dunno, I don't watch the mainstream media… it's horseshit.

        • +2 votes

          @arkanis50: So you don't watch the mainstream media but you know what they do and don't report?

          • $86bn savings - Indeed this new report from a right wing think tank hasn't been covered in the mainstream media. Though even ignoring the fact that regulations tend to exist to protect people and not to save money (so scrapping them isn't necessarily good - why not just scrap them all?), none of the figures in the blogs about it add up. I then tried reading the actual report and only managed to grasp that the vast majority wasn't savings from scrapping regulations but from scrapping actual programmes. I didn't examine it closely but none of the alleged savings were backed up with any evidence I could see. Maybe that's why they didn't cover it? Though given Trump hasn't mentioned either, you can hardly complain about that…
          • Drop in illegal crossings - extensively reported.
          • 5 year lobbying bans - extensively reported.
          • New jobs - extensively reported (anyone with half a brain would recognise that has virtually nothing to do with Trump, even if you don't want to attribute it to Obama)
          • Increased funding for NASA - extensively reported.
          • Donation of his salary - extensively reported.
          • Executive order for women in STEM - False, he approved bills Congress had created, extensively reported.
          • Health - Lie, the truth was extensively reported.

          I have no problem with people pointing out good stuff he does, but the fact you can't even cherrypick only the good stuff to try and make him look better (a rather fruitless task given there's little a sexual predator could realistically do to win my respect - pity you and your ilk are happy to overlook it) without lying on top speaks volumes.

        • +2 votes

          @callum9999: at the end of the day, America was damned either way (for the record I didn't like either of the two main candidates). I think they should have elected Bernie Sanders. I'm dumbfounded the general American population is so against his socialist policies – so many of them would benefit from it, but the majority is too naive, stupid and easily influenced to see that.

          Kind of like the fools who thought that GST was replacing the income tax in Australia and were thrilled at the idea of establishing a GST. Until they realised it was 10% on all goods and services, not the service you provide (working for a business on a salary).

          I'll be glad once newspapers disappear and people grow realise they have the ability to critically think and research things for themselves. Oh, wait, never mind.

        •  

          @no not me: Well it wasn't, but that's neither here nor there.

          I'm not - though no doubt I'm too "naive, stupid and easily influenced" because I don't believe that he's capable of following through on his promises…

          The "mainstream media" like to spin things to their own point of view - exactly the same way you do when you convey news (perfectly illustrated by this post!) - but it's still an important resource to get factual information from. They don't outright lie anywhere near as much as people like to think they do - it seems like it's some kind of new fashion statement to proclaim that you're better than that!

  • +34 votes

    There's a shortage of good and honest politicians in this country so we need some kind of skilled visa system to replace the current corrupt lot

  • +7 votes

    Who will collect the shopping trolleys in the car parks ?

    • +6 votes

      or man the 7/11 stores?

    • +15 votes

      seems like you have got a new job… PS trolley collectors are not on 457 visas neither are 7/11 employees

      •  

        I've always wondered how this works - can anyone enlighten me?

        I've had family from Europe that were not allowed to come to Australia because they didn't have the correct qualification, yet I see many 'new Australians' working in unskilled jobs such as 7/11's, taxi's, uber and so forth. Do they overstay Student visa's or something?

        •  

          Go figure. Seen it myself, hard working people, ineligible for employment here, only for unskilled jobs to go to any random non-citizen at the drop of a hat.

        • +3 votes

          I personally know a lot that came as students around 15-20 years ago. And without babying the answer - yes, a lot of them come from India.

          If you've been to India or acquainted yourself with their culture you've probably noticed that on-the-whole they have a profound obsession with social status (I'm sure Google will give you lots of explanations). Imagine what it's like to come from one of the poorest countries in the world to a country where the guy who cleans your faecal matter from clogged pipes that never finished high school will be making more than you ever will and has no problems in finding a wife whose family would accept him.

          In Australia you can make more than your neighbours back home ever dreamed of and you don't need even need to use your fancy degree. I respect a lot of these people because they've rebelled against their upbringing and now think the same way myself and a lot of other Australians do. The world is a complex, fast-changing place and there's no need to get bogged down in things such as religious differences, nationalism and reputation. The world might be f'd soon for all we know anyway and chances are you'll die soon enough and no one will remember your name or care. So f the system, do unto others as you would have them do unto you and live your life.

    • +3 votes

      those are the jobs which avg Australians do not want to do anyways

      • +11 votes

        Those are jobs plenty of Aussies would do for award wages with appropriate penalty rates.
        They aren't so keen working the job for the cash in hand rates at $10 or $15 an hour.

        • -12 votes

          Why would we pay someone award wages and penalty rates to collect trolleys…?

          Let's be honest, wages in this country are completely out of line with the reality based on job complexity. This is a clear example of a job being worth only $10-15 per hour. It should ideally just be school kids or work-for-the-dole or similar.

          I get that people need to make a living, they need reasonable wages otherwise we all essentially pick up the slack, etc etc blah blah but noone should be "making a living" a trolley collector

        • +6 votes

          @jellykingdom:

          noone should be "making a living" a trolley collector

          Not sure what you are arguing? That working full time as trolley collector should only pay $20k-$30k (around the same as a pension?)
          I don't see how it is preferable to employ somebody under the table, and trolley's need to be collected during school hours too. There would be less need for work for the dole programs if the trolley collectors were being paid the award wage.

          If the trolley collectors are on minimum wage (I haven't looked up their award), they will be getting hardly any more at $17.70 an hour, but they will be getting appropriate penalties, overtime and paying some tax. All better than cash economy exploiting visitors on restricted visas.
          FWIW, I had a friend who was a full time, adult trolley collector for a few years. He was more into surfing and his music, but held down a 40hr week with predictable tasks and not too many mental challenges that suited him. If he wasn't able to find work as an adult where he performed unskilled labour like that, he would probably ended up unemployed - coding a mobile app or hustling for clients for a 'creative' job wasn't ever going to be something he could do.

        •  

          Or $5 an hour which the Indians at 7/11 were getting

        • +1 vote

          so who should be penalised??? employees or big companies like woolies and coles who hire them??

        •  

          That working full time as trolley collector should only pay $20k-$30k (around the same as a pension?)

          The problems is with Centrelink being too good.

          No one in the right mind as an Australian citizen will be willing to work for low wages as they can sit at home and earn only a little lessor than min wage by abusing Centrelink.

          $17.70 to pick up trolley is a bit much. High minimum wage and abusable welfare system is whats wrong with Australia.

          Think of it in companies side. If I need to pay that much for such a low end job, I might as well as replace them with technology (like in this case the coin returning policy). I don't think a trolley collector should be paid the same as a pharmacist assistant who is prepping my drugs.

        • +8 votes

          @ssyl9:
          I really do despair at people who keep criticising minimum wages and welfare as some undesirable privilege.
          By all means head for the USA or Hong Kong or somewhere where you can enjoy the benefit of an underclass.
          For what it is worth, the most junior pharmacy assistant is paid $19.44 an hour full time.

          Think of it this way:
          Your life is not worth any more than mine or the Prime Minister's or the Pope's.
          The pope could be revealed a pederast, the PM a murderer etc. tomorrow, and the lowly trolley boy could compose a wonderful song humming in his work.
          Our pay system recognises that everyone's life slipping away while they work is worth quite a lot. It makes some allowances to pay an extra minimum for people who have extra training or experience.
          It then opens the door for you to negotiate a higher rate if your personal skills or experience or good luck make you of enhanced value.

          But it also protects people from thinking that people aren't worth much because they haven't managed to negotiate a fine income. And while it is possible that some simple, repetitive jobs get automated away, is it preferable to employ people in comparative poverty to do them, rather than get a machine to take over?

          So, by all means reward the pharmacy assistant who has demonstrated a better retail skillset or whatever a bit more than the girl collecting the trolleys, but don't decide somebody's job that needs to be done has a pitiful value.

        • +2 votes

          For what it is worth, the most junior pharmacy assistant is paid $19.44 an hour full time.

          Wrong, I have a few friends working as pharmacy assistant at 17.80 per hour. Real cases.

          don't decide somebody's job that needs to be done has a pitiful value.

          The problem with the ever increasing min income is that anything above the min income stayed the same. No company is going to increase is more to reduce their incomes if it is not for the law.

          This causes the better skilled people to be grouped with nearly 0 skilled jobs, encouraging people to not work hard to skill up or take more responsibility as you are still gonna be making the same money.

          This will then cause a stagnant in economic advance and people are just gonna do the least to get by (which is kinda already happening in Australia)

          A good economy should have segments of payouts on the availability of workers needing the skillset and being a trolley collector should only be jobs of students or when you absolutely cannot do anything else.

          The "Help everyone" mentality is just gonna help no one in the future.

        • +1 vote

          @Whomastadon: my local 7/11 has nice young blonde girl working there.

        • +1 vote

          @ssyl9:

          Wrong, I have a few friends working as pharmacy assistant at 17.80 per hour. Real cases.

          Then your friends are trainees, juniors or are being paid incorrectly. The award is published here:
          https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/documents/modern_awards/pdf...
          It mandates a 38 hour week with a weekly pay for $738.80 for a Level 1 Pharmacy Assistant. That is $19.44 per hour.

          The problem with the ever increasing min income is that anything above the min income stayed the same.

          Since the award system has been in place all my life, with minimum wages not drastically higher than starting wages (e.g. a qualified pharmacist minimum pay is $966.60) I guess the effect you attribute must be clear. So tell me - did you take a minimum wage job and decide to avoid training etc?

          Or is it very, very likely that almost everyone is trying to do well. Those who can benefit from upping their skills almost always do so, and those who enhance value to employer negotiate a higher wage.

          Why do you think having a reasonable minimum wage disincentivises personal achievement? If it sapped your desire to succeed and left you on a low pay grade I will accept I am incorrect in your case.

        •  

          @westernculture: thanks for the hair colour update

        •  

          @ssyl9: if you think that freezing wages is somehow going to slow down or stop people's jobs being replaced by machines, I disagree. We're approaching a stage where things are going to really ramp up, in terms of AI and robotics, which will mean things are going to get really good and go down in price.

          You don't need to be an economist to see this, look at the US. Walmart pays abysmal wages, they are the reason behind so many working people needing welfare, and they're still replacing people with automatic terminals. They're stretching managers into multiple departments, where departments once had multiple managers. You don't see the American minimum wage increase often and you also don't see their welfare increase businesses are cutting jobs because machines are more reliable in many ways and they're cheaper in the long run.

        •  

          @no not me:

          +1 good point

          It should be noted — everytime there is a wage increase, it simply means that big businesses are pressured to invest money into automation to counteract that wage increase. Mcdonalds and Wendy's in the 'states have already replaced thousands of fast food workers with kiosks. Trucking companies are spending money on driverless vehicle development. And Amazon.. their warehouses are full of robots that sort inventory and deliver them to pickup points inside the distribution centre.

          It's not a question of whether automation will happen — it's a question of when it happens.

          Another important thing to note: Workers will get replaced in all lines of work, no matter of it's minimum wage or not.

          When that happens things will get cheaper, but with mass unemployment we'll also have to consider social security or risk economic disaster.

      •  

        Disagree - my 'white' Dad worked in a petrol station between jobs and when he had to feed his family.

    • +5 votes

      in the true spirit it does make sense in some circumstances,
      A foreigner, say we had a sudden need for short term increase in Doctors to deal will SARS or Bird Flu we would import experienced doctors.
      a person experienced with Ferrari to train some local mechanics experienced in Ford, Holden etc
      A some chefs to allow more venues to remain open during Commonwealth games.

      However where the scheme is abused,
      by claiming a knowledge shortfall as a skill and artificially creating 'skills shortage', then those 'knowledge' workers earning permanent entitlement to stay.

      These aren't necessary actual real life examples industries will use highly specific comparisons that government agencies would not be able to identify, but general demonstration of how industries slip through

      Bringing in garbage truck drivers from overseas because they are skilled in Left hand drive vehicles, despite the fundamental skill is the same as Right Hand.

      Staffing a Mechanics shop with Ferrari mechanics from overseas instead of temporary staff training some existing Mercedes, Mazda, Ford and Holden mechanics.

      Bringing in Cleaners from China to clean because the machines they are cleaning are from China.

      Happens in IT all the time, software common overseas is used as a skill missing to bring in foreigners,
      however all software have the basic fundamentals and someone experienced in the competitor product is quite easily able to translate the skills, but they are skipped over.

      And again Chefs all know how to prepare menus, budgets and prepare recipes, however bring in Chefs from Europe because they are skilled in European recipes, even if they don't end up doing European menus.

      • +8 votes

        Absolutely agree with your comment; in the true spirit it makes sense, but in practicality it doesn't. Like any piece of legislation; there are scammers who will find a loophole and exploit it. In the 457 VISA case; the loophole was to bring in workers from impoverished countries and have them work in industries where there is no skill shortage; but a job shortage. The reason they would do this is because the 457 VISA worker will often work for a lower rate of pay. This is not the 457 VISA holder who is exploiting the system; as they're only looking to better their personal situation; but it is absolutely exploitation from the Australian companies who are using this route to take on new roles. The bigger the company; the better they are at abusing this loophole.

        •  

          One point that many aren't aware is that there's a minimum salary of $50+K for all 457 Visa holders so they are not receiving a lower rate of pay.

          Of course there will be employers who attempt to circumvent this rule and they should definitely be punished.

        •  

          @JLHC: The problem is how you catch and punish them when the employees will never say a word. 457 is after all a sponsored visa. If the employers get caught, the employees will lose their jobs.

        • +1 vote

          @JLHC: But another thing to consider is when you're replacing a specialist job that pays $100k per annum to a local worker, and $50k to an VISA holder: it's a lower wage. Maybe not to the VISA holder (then again maybe it is when you consider the cost of living in Australia), but to the employer and the local employee it is a much lower rate.

          Look, to be honest the 457 VISA is only the tip of the iceberg. The real problem is the ease at which companies operating in Australia are able to outsource and offshore their operations to save money on wages and tax. We're spending our money on their products and services and they are giving nothing back to the country.

        •  

          @MoMoney: AFAIK you must pay market rates that are comparable to everyone else so you can't expect to pay $50K for a $100K job.

          DIBP will definitely need to do more audits and spot checks to catch all those who go against the law just like any other offenses. We don't see everyone being stripped off their driver's license just because of a few bad drivers.

  •  

    liberal have always maintained they wanted jobs and growth in budget. I think he is doing what he promised

  • +5 votes

    So they abolished the 457 visa because they have lost all credibility
    To be replaced by 2 new temporary work visas
    And we still have 30 odd temporary visa types
    Not expecting any reduction at all

    Just another can they are kicking down the road

    • +3 votes

      I like the fact that temporary is temporary HOWEVER they are only reducing the intake of workers by 9%, and there are still cooks and chefs on the list. No offence to cooks and chefs, but they should be training Australians to fill those roles.

    • -1 vote

      Nobody wants to do those jobs. I'm with the government on this one. Even if some decide that those jobs will be their profession for life, for young Australians to do jobs with no prospect/career development whatsoever is simply saddening. And yet the shortage in rural areas is still there.

      •  

        If wages for those jobs increase, then there will be people who will want to do those jobs. I don't believe there are no locals that will be willing to do those jobs.

        •  

          and how do you intend to increase those wages? Wages for shit jobs have never increased in both Europe and US. Only professional jobs' wages have increased and this is the only thing that distinguishes Australia.

          I can assure you that wont happen regardless of which party is in charge.

        • -1 vote

          you will be surprised.

          Australia is famous for draining the middle class to take care of the poor (rich will find loopholes)

          Minimum wage will rise and middle class/professional wages will be stagnant/decreased to cater for the increased cost (company need to make savings somewhere)

          I seriously do not know why some jobs where maybe monkeys can be trained to do need to be paid 18 bucks an hour

  • +4 votes

    Abolished but 2 others set up to do the replacement. I am thinking no real change.
    Looking at the list of job roles not applicable any more are ones like police Sargent, why was that able to be done by 457 to start with?

  • +1 vote

    Don't listen to the news so I was saved the pointless exercise of listening to a man with a long history of lying behind him explaining how he abolished one type of visa when he's actually replaced it already.

    Please don't vote this 2 bit lying Telstra employee in next time.

    • +2 votes

      Wait… You don't listen to the news but can state with confidence not to "vote this 2 bit lying Telstra employeer next time"… Just how did you come to this well educated perspective? Unless it is a trap and you don't listen to the news BUT watch/read it avidly!

  • +3 votes

    Oh and it does not affect the hundreds of thousands of current 457 visa holders

  1. BigTed on 18/04/2017 - 16:21
  2. chumlee on 18/04/2017 - 17:06
  3. h0mbre on 20/04/2017 - 07:34
  4. idontalwaysnotlie on 18/04/2017 - 15:12
  5. greenpossum on 18/04/2017 - 16:51
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