Now that Coles and Woolworths have a plastic bag ban in place in Victoria - where are you guys getting your bags from? What is the best value reusable bag? Does the $0.99 bag last at least 6.6X longer than the $0.15 bag?
My local Coles/Woolworths aren't giving the $0.15 bags for free.
Massive issue, really?
I feel sorry for you.
Well, if it really is such a massive issue for you, I think 15 cents is a small price to pay to solve all your problems.
You don't have to buy one. I just thought 15 cents to solve your "massive issue" as you call it would be good value.
Up to you though.
@tranter: It doesn't solve the issue because now you have to pay for a bag that requires more oil reserves, more energy intensive and longer to break down.
@tranter: If you've already forgotten they said they would use the plastic bags from fresh produce section. I'll be doing the same at Woolworths, my Coles has paper bags.
@Savas: I've never seen paper bags at Coles or Woolies (except small bags for mushrooms). Are they as big as the plastic ones?
@ascorbic: I use the ones in the bread section. they are a bit small but I mainly use them out of protest
@Savas: Ah yes, Woolies has those kind of bags as well but with half plastic (I suppose so the cashier can easily see what's inside). Good for a few items but buying anything more is too impractical I think.
I'm so relieved to hear others aren't taking this counterproductive phony environmentalism silently.
@MynyMouqe: because the alleged 15c you think is your consumer right, costs the environment 1000yrs to decompose that plastic bag. Use biodegradable bags, use reuseable bags. Single use plastic should be banned. It's an education thing, the price for convenience.
Your position seems to be "not your problem" I have kids, I want them and their kids NOT to live in a dump.
@Sofie519: Look, I have kids too, and while I too would like progress in attempting to help clean up the planet, your approach is not helpful. Proclaiming you have kids so therefore other people should pick up the slack too in order for them not to be living in a dump in the future is simply too aggressive - and believe me, other people aren't going to give a shit about your kids.
Totalitarians like yourself, who are free to do what ever they want, but who now have shown their true colours (which is to force others to do the same as them) - should be banned from society well before a plastic bag should have been.
Plastic bags in first world countries are not an environmental issue. They are buried in landfills to decompose. Litter bugs will always litter regardless, and there are laws against them already. It's only a few countries where all the plastic litter in the oceans and waterways comes from.
https://www.dw.com/en/almost-all-plastic-in-the-ocean-comes-…
All the law does now is make people aware of how loud a few annoying squeaky wheels are that called for the ban, and it's good people are becoming aware through research that the plastic bag ban won't do anything positive for the environment but is only there to appease a few totalitarians and save coles+woolworths money.
Also screw your pearl clutching "I have kids, therefore I'm right". I would bet my left nut I am more qualified in ecology, conservation, biology, chemistry ect, than you and that is a much stronger position for talking about the impact of plastic waste in Australia than "I have kids".
@Sofie519: My god, you went from "reasonable opinion" to "screeching lunatic" real fast there. Slow down, maybe read up on the scientific literature a little, and quit telling others what they should do. Littering is already a crime, enforcing that will do more for the environment than any number of finely and arbitrarily defined bans.
Seriously - go into the fruit and vege section of woolies or coles and tell me how much disposable plastic you see.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004896971…
Plastic bags ban shows 30% drop. That is a positive.
@Sofie519:
No. Complete disagree.
Next they are going to make you rent or pay for trolley or basket to save metals or moulded plastic, would you jump into the bandwagon and say "Oohhmmmm" too?
Where is this going to stop? Pay to enter the supermarket?
@Savas: Yep. And the new 10c IGA bags are too small to line my bins.
The workflow for each bag used to be:
Shopping -> Home
Fresh gym clothes -> gym
Used gym clothes -> Home
Bin liner to hold trash
Now it's:
Shopping -> Home
Scrunched up and thrown in the bin freshly purchased bin bag*
*Not only does this IGA bag only get used 1x now, it also takes up space in my bin, meaning I go through bin-liners faster.
So the only difference this has made for me is:
1. I'm creating more plastic waste
2. I'm spending more money
@Savas: Whilst you have a point that the new plastic bags will only use more oil etc, I think the point of the whole thing was to reduce the use of single-use plastic bags.
Yes these new plastic bags suck, they cost more to make, are even more environmentally harmful etc, which is why consumers should look into purchasing/using canvas tote bags or insulated bags. You'll get many more uses out of those bags until they too inevitably need to be thrown out, but at least you won't be throwing out plastic bags constantly.
Prove it empirically and have it peer reviewed. Surely a qualified chemist such as yourself believes and demonstrates a great understanding of the scientific method rather than relying on their emotions to dictate critical thinking. That is what a PhD holder was supposed to demonstrate when achieving their doctorate, no?
In a previous post about the topic you tried to correlate the use of plastic bags in Australia with the North Atlantic garbage patch.
https://www.ozbargain.com.au/comment/4912550/redir
Surely someone as educated as yourself would have done further research to find out that Australia's waste doesn't contribute to any appreciable ecological issue where plastic waste is the cause?
https://www.dw.com/en/almost-all-plastic-in-the-ocean-comes-…
@idonotknowwhy: Use a bin you can clean, it isn't so hard ;-)
That's what we've elected to do, just wash it out every few days.
When you think about it, we've lived for millions of years without abusing plastic at all. What makes bin liners so important all of a sudden that plastic bags should end up blowing through the city, caught in trees in the bush, buried in the topsoil, floating in the ocean, inside sea creatures, birds… tossed everywhere we can see?
Sure Coles and Woolies save something, but they wouldn't have been giving them away all these years if they didn't make money on doing so. As most people buy from them regularly, this will help us change our habits, and small shops can use less bags too. Less cost of cleaning up pollution, too. Less taxation.
@resisting the urge: How big is this bin and how often are you washing it out? Have you considered that resource-wise, that's not free either because it uses both water, and for most people, detergents and other chemicals that also go down the drain?
Banning plastics isn't an end in itself - it's the means to help the environment. If banning plastics means that people do alternatives which are worse (or even the same) for the environment, it's pointless and a waste.
Sure Coles and Woolies save something, but they wouldn't have been giving them away all these years if they didn't make money on doing so.
No, they gave them away because it was expected and there would've been a public outcry if they stopped. Luckily for them, the "environmental lobby" gave them the perfect excuse.
There's a recent article that came out showing they would save $170mil by not giving plastic bags, and make an additional $71mil by selling 'reusable' ones.
Use a bin you can clean, it isn't so hard ;-)
Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, this goes against my way of live. I'm all about using my time efficiently and outsourcing / automating the mundane boring shit.
As for the rest of your post, I'm not keen on living like primitive humans with a life expectancy of 30.
When you think about it, we've lived for millions of years without abusing plastic at all.
Some did. Lots died from diseases which have long been eradicated in the First World.
Reusing bags to carry home food is a vector for disease. Disposable food packaging, medical equipment, etc. prevent disease.
Apparently the issue of plastic in the ocean is caused by Third World people disposing of their waste by dumping it in rivers. In the First World we generally dispose of our waste by returning it to where it originated — the ground.
Reversing the hygiene and productivity advancements of the First World won't solve this Third World problem.
I wish I could be your neighbour and watch you try to carry tiny paper bags carrying milk to your house only to break and spoil everything. The lols.
@Aweios: Seems to ignore the other side effects - like shift from not purchasing garbage bags prior to the ban to doing so after and the fact that the alternatives don't compare as well in terms of their fabrication & lifecycle cost on the environment. There was a news.com.au article a year or so back that linked some studies that were a little more informative.
@tranter: It is an issue. However I'm sure getting ripped off, or overpaying (even 15 cents) is an issue for my bargain hunters on this site.
We just don't like overpaying, whether its 15 thousand or 15 cents.
Use a bin you can clean, it isn't so hard ;-
How will you clean it though ? How much water is wasted ? How much cleaning product is used ? Is the cleaning product harmful to environment (not only when it is purchased by you, but in its manufacture) .
@Savas: Then don't buy a bloody plastic bag… Buy cotton, Jute, hemp, ANYTHING ELSE… Jesus why is this so hard for people. The choice is up to YOU now!
Yeah paper bags seems strange - it doesn't seem like something they'd choose to do because you can't see what's inside the bag. This increases check out times, and makes it easier for people to falsely scan things in the self serve.
@ILikeBargenz: Wild guess but maybe paper creates a more "fresh/in-house" perception among consumers. It's a similar idea to how chip manufacturers deliberately make their packets noisy to create the perception of crispiness.
@HighAndDry: How big? I use a bin which is(was) perfect for a plastic bag. Now we just use the bin and hose it out. Each time makes it easy to avoid using detergent. Takes me a minute or so to do, (and doesn't require a robot, FTW) Just let it drain before putting it back in the drawer.
Plastic bags are crap anyhow as they often leak, so bin washing is not something we can avoid unless you buy special bags (maybe someone will make paper ones, if innovation isn't completely dead now).
Besides, if you put your organics in a bowl and have a worm farm, it gets easier still.
Also, a lot of detergents, when and if one has to use them, are far lighter on the environment than the disposal of plastic bags anyhow. The gaseous pollution and oil used in production alone.
Rubbish is not a third world problem- we were doing what they did long beforehand and where we fouled up with plastic it is still there. If we manage to landfill it now, it is not because we're brilliant. Despite what the 'I want my free disposable plastics' crowd says, in Australia 80 Million bags per year end up in our environment*.
80 M bags that are nothing to do with any other country. That are our fault and which cost us community groups over 4M a year in cleanup costs (but only catches a fraction of what we excrete)
PS. You claim the supermarkets gave them away because it was expected. That is not correct. It was expected by some yes, but they act primarily in the interests of profit, and know that doing so reduces friction in the decision making process, which increases profit. They have numbers that prove it, and know exactly what the impact of this is, which is why they will give away multi use bags if they have to. And do, at least for some time.
@Scrooge McDuck: TWP? Is your head in washed sand SMcD?
Go look in Sydney Harbour, where we find 1000 pieces of microplastics in every bucket of sand. Not to mentions thousands of plastic bags. And inland rivers, many have more plastic bags than you can collect if you spent a year on your favourite stretch. Hear of cleanupaustralia? Not stopped to think about much of their collection is plastic bags?
Not seen the birds and other sea life suffering from plastic pollution. How would you go ingesting just one bag?
We contribute 80M bags into our own back yard annually- based on very old figures which could be mangnitudes higher. Do all the bags in our harbours come from Asia? Or should we also kill the animals and sealife around us because they care more about their survival more than the fish?
Reusing bags a vector for disease? What about the ingestion of plastics by products and mould lubricants, etc. are these not bad for our health too? However let's answer your question: Everything is a vector for disease. Must we wage war on bacteria, which we cannot live without… to get us where exactly? Waging war on cockroaches will result in the last human dying before the last roach. Sure some foods can kill you- Roquefort got banned because of bacterial vectors. The ban was rescinded because enough people wanted it and weren't suffering, let alone dying. Scientific studies are often taken at face value, rather than in the context in which they actually mean something.
Should all go live in Japan in sealed plastic towers where everything is disinfected from pens (to bags) before use? Have our children suffer from everyday infections because their immune systems cannot develop? There is a balance in everything, and claiming that bags will kill you is lunacy. Not washing your hands, let alone your veggies can kill you. Being scared of reusable bags is paranoia. Isn't the study used to promote that bullshit scientifically flawed anyhow?
No, this is not about hygiene and advancement. It is not about a loud lobby going mad. It is about not abusing plastics to maximise consumption and corporate profit at the expense of our own society. The pros are basically convenience, and the cons are pollution and all its increasingly worse effects. If you aren't seeing them, stop and get out of your flat or our car for just 2 minutes and look. Most people are aware there is more around than ever before- our sand and our topsoil is literally full of it now.
"Rubbish is not a 3rd world problem"
Actually, the information shows the impact of plastics as a marine ecological problem is from the 3rd world, and not first world countries: https://www.dw.com/en/almost-all-plastic-in-the-ocean-comes-…
We bury waste in this country. Other first world countries do the same, or they burn it for fuel as is the case with Scandinavian countries. They actively encourage people to produce waste because they need it to power their grid: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/jun/14/norway-w….
Your own personal experience with seeing plastic in waterways is conjecture, and it's also illegal to dump plastic. We already have laws against littering. Perhaps you could direct your energy to seeing that litterbugs are brought to justice than force your views on other people who need to use plastic bags and are responsible with their disposal?
I understand you are very emotional about the subject, but emotions shouldn't dictate policy even if this is 2018 and everyone wants to force this opinions onto others by lobbying as loudly as possible (as evident by you spreading misinformation and being very vocal about what others should be doing, rather than just doing the right thing yourself and not worrying about what other people do with their life as it doesn't affect you).
I actually agree with this. No one carries around a spare shopping bag, and I do a fair bit of shopping during lunch breaks too (but certainly not enough to need one of those large re-usable bags even if I brought one). And buying a $0.15 bag every time is not only annoying, it's a utter cash grab by the shops (which I oppose on principle) and also worse for the environment because each re-usable bag takes more resources to make and longer to break down than the older ones.
Or you could take a 15 cent bag when you go shopping to reduce bag usage and save money. Creating less waste. Maybe the problem is that no one carries spare shopping bags. It's not that hard.
@lolz112: I was already reducing bag usage and saving money by reusing the old plastic bags as bin liners. Go be sanctimonious elsewhere.
When I lived in California (where there have been no plastic bags for ages), I just used to keep a few reusable bags in the car, and a few more in my office desk drawer. I never really had a problem, and the bags in my drawer came in handy for transporting things (cables, etc) around the office from time to time.
@HighAndDry: It's irrelevant what you do elsewhere and whether you think that appeases your environmental conscience. The facts are you're triggered and unable to adapt to the new circumstances, and complain about it instead. No one is forcing you to buy a 15c bag every time. You're forcing yourself to by not carrying a bag around with you. Also generalising that no one carries around spare shopping bags is false. Just because you don't, doesn't mean others don't. Take responsibility for your own laziness. You know the rules. Adapt or be quiet.
No one carries around a spare shopping bag,
Load of shit. I carry the nylon fold up ones all the time whenever I need to.
He is forcing himself by not carrying around a bag everywhere? Why would you say it's irrelevant that he already makes a conscious effort to reduce waste but then try to insult him for not going the extra mile to carry around a bag with him everywhere? Sounds like you're the one triggered if you are going to spout such contradictions in the same post and use insults when you obviously found it relevant.
Your position is obviously absolute trash designed to shame those who don't put in the crazy level of environmentalism as yourself, and relies on a very small circle of vocal people to perpetuate it.
Plastic bags in Australia don't contribute to the marine plastic issue.
https://www.dw.com/en/almost-all-plastic-in-the-ocean-comes-…
It's all for show for people like yourself to feel good about imposing their will on others forcefully. Telling him 'you know the rules, adapt' is disgusting. Forcing others and shaming them is going to have the opposite effect on society you think it will.
@lolz112:
Big Corporates love suckers like you. Only today there is an article Woolies stand to profit $170m due to cost shifting.
@spiff: Triggered? Hardly. Annoyed? Yes, on multiple points: The supermarkets for using transparently misleading information to make a cash grab. The government for falling for this lobbying by supermarkets (and similarly ignorant 'environmental' groups). And by people like you for also falling for these claims - possibly most by this, because supermarkets get a benefit out of this, the government gets a benefit out of this, people like you get no benefit out of it but so eagerly stick up for those poor poor supermarkets. That gets me.
@burningrage: Ha I read (and linked) that article. They save $170mil. On top of that, they stand to make an extra $70 mil in revenue from selling reusable bags. And we have people defending them.
@burningrage:
I'm a sucker because I believe that single use bags are bad for the environment? If I was that concerned about the supermarkets profit I would've stopped going to Coles and woolies a long time ago.
Honestly I don't think they went far enough. The government should charge a levy for the amount of plastic usage to combat the environmental damage that it causes. But then there would be more upheaval as evidenced by people who don't want to change.
Maybe the problem is that no one carries spare shopping bags.
I walk, train, or uber everywhere, I don't drive a car or push a granny trolley. And I only carry my phone, keys and sometimes wallet with me; in my pockets.
I'm not going to start carrying shit around with my hands unless it's something I've purchased that day, and I only make those kinds of purchases on the way home from work.
@idonotknowwhy: So you know when you're going to make purchases. Fold a bag in your pocket when you leave work and your hands are free.
I agree that the convenience of having a free bag is helpful and as someone who always went for free bags I think it's good that I am discouraged from getting unneeded bags.
Given that around 80-90% of woolies and coles are owned by Australians and our super funds, it’s really us that Is reaping any benefits if any. I say if any, because the laws of business pretty much dictate excess profits won’t last for competitive industries like middlemen supermarkets. So I’m doubtful of claims of something that has only began.
@lolz112:
I agree taxing the corporates for plastic packaging would have achieved a bigger reduction in plastic usage. No incentive works better than corporate greed..
I love the german system of Grune Punkt (https://resource.co/article/germany-new-packaging-law-sets-n…) whereby the manufacturer of the product has to pay for the recycling of packaging as a tax. Their packaging therefore is surprisingly compact to minimise this tax.
I am seriously suprised at the amount of Consumer Packed goods in Australia with misleading Large Pack Sizes. Only 1/3 of it is actually the product & remaining airspace. The large pack sizes only for visual appeal. Reduce Packaging waste, ship More per unit shipping space & save fuel.
@HighAndDry: I don't support the ban but I'll defend the supermarkets to the extent that it wasn't their decision.
Having said that though, I'm not sure how anyone can look on the fact they can sell plastic bags as an alternative as anything other than profiteering rather than conforming - especially given their (perhaps exaggerated) lack of longevity.
Exactly, the shops are getting their cash grab of 15 cents a pop, then they get to sell us more bags (bags for putting rubbish in, for those of us that re-used the old ones as rubbish bags) … Then plenty of the 15 cent re-usable bags will still just be thrown away, having more adverse impact on our environment than the thin free grey bags would have impacted.
Right - so your stance is that we shouldn't take any measures for the benefit of the environment, if someone stands to profit out of it?
Should we also refuse to buy electric cars because whoever is manufacturing them is doing so for profit?
@lolz112:
What you believe is a mistaken sense of faith. The real plastic bag waster isnt in Australia. It is in other countries like Asia.
If anything Australia has been extremely environmentally conscious. Using plastic bags as liners, dog poops, even safekeeping for next trip. Australians dont have a plastic bag in waterway issues. We know this because productivity commission report said so. Less than 1% of plastic bags are in waterways.
No. What I believe is you want to impose your version of environmentalism to others where the silent majority disagrees and you see this is an opportunity to jump the bandwagon.
We just simply pointed out the hypocrisy or the flaw of the logic and ask the member of public of what is next going to be banned?
@idonotknowwhy: Convenience is big for me too, so I use my backpack, and perhaps occasionally grab a box off the shelf or use a 15c bag. If flying superlight, there's now a small cost of living free to encourage peeps to do the right thing. A cost you can avoid buy carrying a fold-up bag at the times you may need one.
I grab a cardboard box off the shelf and use that.
box then goes into the recycling bin at home.
That's great for smaller items, but not so easy for the weekly grocery run
grab several boxes and place in trolley.
I sometimes see people wheeling the trolleys from woolies to my apartment foyer. I have to admit that I laugh and, inside, I'm just shaking my head.
I grab a cardboard box off the shelf and use that
When all the plastic bags are gone and everyone's using cardboard boxes, we'll be having this exact conversation again - except it'll be people protesting about how bad it is to cut down trees to make boxes.
it'll be people protesting about how bad it is to cut down trees to make boxes.
Trees are a fair bit easier to grow than oil though, and paper degrades more gracefully.
That's true - I'm really just saying that there's always going to be someone protesting about something.
This is exactly what most of us trying to point out. Whats next on the line to be banned?
More importantly even we did invent a bag that vanishes in the air after 1 day there will STILL people want to ban it.
It is a power thing. It does feel good to make people submit to your ideals and now it all lays bare for all to see.
We feel your burning rage, it'll be okay
One of the first things I learned shopping at Aldi
Why don't you keep the boxes in your trunk and reuse them instead of recycling them?
I grab a cardboard box off the shelf and use that.
Why don't I ever see people doing things like this? :(
So unfair.
Oh…so that's where all the boxes disappeared off to…..
I'm using the 99c bag. Soon as used I fold it back up and stick it in my coat pocket. Think it'll be good for loads of uses, seems fairly robust. So far I've not forgotten it once, vs the old green re-useable ones that are permanently in the boot of my car.
Good to know. I'm happy to pay for the 99c bag if I get a lot of uses from it. Whether it's better for the environment or not sounds like a controversial issue.
The 99c bag actually has a tag that states if the bag is torn or becomes damaged, you can get it replaced for free. That's an added bonus to choosing them over the 15c ones.
Did not know that. That's awesome. Thanks for sharing Munki!
you can get it replaced for free.
This is good to know, however does NOT help the environment . The old ripped bag (or not so old, might be newish) is still going into landfill, and still a large waste of resources in its manyfacture.
Lol. Why are we still talking about plastic bags? A pretty amusing discussion for much of the world where bags have been banned for decades.
It's not rocket science.
I'm not going to stop talking about plastic bags until Woolworths stop wrapping everything in plastic. They are only stopping the free bags to make profits.
They are only stopping the free bags to make profits.
Ummm no, it’s a ban issued by the government.
Supermarkets are trying to get around it by selling the reusable bags at 15 whooping cents.
If they didn’t and just opt out of giving bags altogether I’m sure the err.. entitled population will still have something to b!tch about.
Not in NSW it's not. And I don't know why anyone trusts the government to be competent or to prioritise science (which doesn't support plastic bans) over votes and PR (which do - because of lobbying by scientifically ignorant environmental groups).
The supermarkets are just using this as an opportunity to make more money. There are many alternatives such as paper bags, compostable bags, biodegradable bags, cardboard boxes or cloth bags. Obviously they choose to sell new thicker bags that are now even more damaging to the environment.
@HighAndDry:
Put it this way, not everyone agrees with the law/rules dictated by the governments (see taxes, rates, speeding/parking fines etc.), but by not obeying those laws one would find themselves being fined and penalised for it.
When the governement issues a ban, the stores abide by it or cope a massive fine.
So it’s like this:
Government > stores > staff
Yet somehow all everyone is blaming the stores and abuse or even assault staff for following the government’s directives.
P/s: I don’t even work for Woolie.
The ban is not legislated in Victoria. While the state government plans to implement it by the end of 2019, there is currently no ban on plastic bags. The supermarkets have voluntarily "banned" plastic bags themselves.
@zonra: Again - this is also happening in Vic and NSW where there's no plastic ban in place. Also - a plastic bag ban does not mean that Woolies/Coles have to charge money for the reusable bags. That's purely their choice.
@zonra: Not to downplay the seriousness of the incident, but your two abuse and assault links seem to be describing the same incident.
@Savas: If you think paper and cloth bags are better alternative than plastic, you need to watch this video. I used to think the same as you but sometimes issues are more complicated than they seem.
I encourage you to keep pressuring the supermarkets to reduce their plastic use.
However I think it is ridiculous to expect them to transition to zero plastic use in one fell shot.
What do you actually expect things to be packed in? Someone ranted at me that nappies shouldn't be wrapped up, sorry, are mums just going to wrangle 50 loose nappies and a baby? On top of that it isn't up to Woolworths what the suppliers pack their products in. The whole "all or nothing" thought is just senseless.
Feel free to not talk about plastic bags.
Yep, good point. Did you see the latest episode of Media Watch?
Nope. Go ahead and make your own post about it though.
Fruit and Vege bags from Coles & Woolies. They're thinner so you have to use 2-3x.