Item Not as Described - Seller Not Covering Cost of Return Postage

LoftyAu on 29/07/2018 - 22:22

A few months ago I bought 2 sets of 120W solar panels off an eBay retailer, to take camping.

I took them camping and was surprised my battery wasn't getting as topped up as it should.

Upon returning home, I tested the panels in the back yard and found that they were only putting out about half their rated capacity (sidenote: I am an electrical engineer, so do know my way around a multimeter). They're either faulty or not as described.

Discussion ensured with the seller and they wanted me to retest etc, which I did. Then there were eBay messages that never got through (apparently). Several weeks passed until the seller agreed to take the panels back. They first offered me a $20 partial refund and then I when told them I had already used the panels they stated they wouldn't take them back as they were 'used' (well duh, that's how I found out they don't put out anywhere near their rating). We wasted a lot of time going back and forth about that …

However, the seller will not pay for return postage. Given the size, weight etc return postage will cost me about $80 (on $250 worth of products). I have perused the ACCC site and for items that are 'large or bulky' it is the sellers responsibility to cover return postage (smaller items, it is the buyer). I figure these fit that description. The seller however is ignoring the ACCC site.

Because of the delays, my ability to claim under eBay has passed. I lodged a case with PayPal, seller ignored it, so I escalated it to PayPal, PayPal made a decision that I could return but they want me to pay return postage.

Suggestions on next steps? Paying $80 to return them seems pointless, I'll be $80 down - I could put that towards buying another set of panels to compensate for the poor output of these panels. I guess I can continue and see what advice the ACCC can offer.

General Discussion

Comments

  • [Deactivated] on 29/07/2018 - 22:25
    +5

    Did you pay by credit card via Pay Pal?
    Do a charge back on the card.

    • LoftyAu on 29/07/2018 - 22:30

      Yes paid by CC. I didn't think chargebacks were a useful mechanism for this sort of stuff? Doesn't it get messy?

      • thatonethere on 29/07/2018 - 22:43
        +2

        Can be. Potentially Paypal will ban you. And pursue you for the money.

        • Tacooo on 29/07/2018 - 23:39
          +12

          In which case you point out that the seller wasn't following ACL and you pointed this out to them while they effectively ignored it. If they send it to collections you laugh it off because they have no ground to stand on. (profanity) Paypal.

        • SlickMick on 30/07/2018 - 09:35
          +7

          @potplanty:
          That's how I see it. Paypal reckons they call the shots rather than ACL. Well let them fight you credit card company on that one.

          And if paypal's approach is to ban anyone who stands up for their rights, they will be restricting their customer base, and I'm quite happy for a competitor to fill the gap.

        • GregMonarch on 31/07/2018 - 16:22
          +2

          In the past paypal have blocked accounts with any credit sitting in them, and withdrawn money from people's bank accounts. So IF you plan to do anything like a CC chargeback, completely transfer any credit you have with paypal, then empty and CLOSE the bank account you entered with them and open a completely new one. That way they can't withdraw without your permission and can't force the bank to send your balance negative.

        • lgacb08 on 01/08/2018 - 08:40
          +1

          @GregMonarch: don't need to close the account, just request your bank to block direct debit from PayPal for that account

      • Love a bargain on 30/07/2018 - 15:39
        +2

        the chargeback itself is easy

        what PayPal might do is a different matter

        PayPal wouldn't be out of money themselves as they'd just pass it onto the seller

        • Calmago on 30/07/2018 - 19:47
          -1

          From a sellers perspective that gets regular charge-backs. As long as we can provide proof of registered shipping we do not loose anything, it's covered under PayPal's seller protection.

        • cktftw on 31/07/2018 - 10:26
          +2

          @Calmago: > a sellers perspective that gets regular charge-backs

          Where and what do you sell? Tell us so we'll avoid you

        • Love a bargain on 31/07/2018 - 12:39
          +1

          @Calmago:

          But this claim is for defective product, rather than non-delivery of product, so proof of shipping is of no relevance.

        • ozzpete on 01/08/2018 - 02:56

          @tm87:

          gets regular charge-backs
          Where and what do you sell? Tell us so we'll avoid you

          Good point Unless he/she is selling a huge amount of sales, they shouldn't be getting "regular charge-backs".

      • Ravenousryan on 31/07/2018 - 12:40

        PayPal refunds some shipping costs I think up to 8 items a year

    • WaveZero on 01/08/2018 - 01:20

      The outcome of my CC chargeback to Paypal was good, even though Paypal ruled against me (most likely due to me opening a CC dispute, I did that since Paypal was taking too long to process the claim) they didn't put my Paypal balance in the negative or do any shady stuff.

      https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/368739?page=2#comment-5814…

  • Godric on 29/07/2018 - 22:29

    Time for ebay+

    • LoftyAu on 29/07/2018 - 22:29

      I have eBay+, however was bought before that started.

      • stumo on 31/07/2018 - 10:55

        Have you tried the eBay live chat? They have been really good for me when I've had issues. ATM they are bending over backwards for ebay plus members (eg I wrangled a sitewide $79 voucher because I bought the wrong item using one of my PROXY codes and had to cancel the transaction)

  • SnoozeAndLose on 29/07/2018 - 22:54
    +2

    Paypal cover you up to $45 for the return shipping cost

    • Clear on 29/07/2018 - 23:01
      +11

      If you've activated it previously.

      https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/returns

      • nith265 on 30/07/2018 - 22:53
        +1

        There's so much to learn….

      • Ravenousryan on 31/07/2018 - 12:41
        +1

        Thanks for this. Activated now

      • Soluble on 31/07/2018 - 15:08

        Thanks, activated.

      • BubbLeT on 31/07/2018 - 23:44

        How did I not know about this? Thanks.

    • LoftyAu on 30/07/2018 - 13:36
      +6

      Why do they make these things optional. Hadn't activated it …

      • SnoozeAndLose on 30/07/2018 - 14:02
        +6

        Because they dont want to pay out to the people who dont know about this.

      • Love a bargain on 31/07/2018 - 12:40

        & because there are extra T&Cs you have to agree to

      • SomeBooy on 31/07/2018 - 15:54

        Because they want people knowingly using Paypal for that reason. In your case, you're already using Paypal so why incentivise?

  • qwerty on 29/07/2018 - 23:54

    ""If you're returning an item because it doesn't match the listing, or arrives damaged or faulty, then the seller is responsible for the return postage costs. If you changed your mind, you'll need to check the seller's return policy in the listing – many sellers offer free returns but you may be responsible for return postage.""

    You will argue they didnt match listing , he will argue they are at a set capacity and you changed your mind after using it - especially how many weeks this has been going - ebay/paypal might go either way - most likely in his favour and if you try charge backs it might hurt your ebay/paypal account .

    Accc dont care and wont be involved- so you choice is to take him to court or be out $80 send it registered and get the rest of the money back .

    • LoftyAu on 30/07/2018 - 13:37

      Where is that quote from? (about not matching listing and seller responsible)

      PayPal have decided I can have a refund, but only if I pay for shipping - already escalated to PayPal.

      • Love a bargain on 30/07/2018 - 15:34
        -1

        Why would you have filed a dispute with PayPal rather than with eBay?

        • LoftyAu on 30/07/2018 - 19:46

          Too long time elapsed thanks to stuffing around with seller.

    • Love a bargain on 30/07/2018 - 15:33

      This. (Based on eBay's T&Cs when I last checked - that's before eBay+)

      The seller that I have had the "luck" to deal with also played ignorant and insisted that I had to pay the return postage for the faulty item that I was sent.

      Filed a dispute with eBay and it was ruled in my favour.

  • moonphase on 30/07/2018 - 03:02

    Put very poor rating to the seller first with detailed comments so other's won't buy from that seller.

    If they have any idea what they are doing to you and the future potential customer, they would do something for you.

    Also, check the buyer's protection PDS on your CC to see if that could help you.

    • mlbrooke on 30/07/2018 - 08:40
      +1

      Poor feedback on a top seller won’t stick. I have tried before when I brought something that didn’t work from a big cheapo importer called AG Machinery or Miles Trading. Eventually got my money back through some slight of hand (seller said they never received the item back), I had lost the Australia Post receipt so I just scanned the receipt docket from when I received the item and it worked for PayPal.
      Anyway I posted negative feed back ( there is much more background) and eBay removed it and wouldn’t tell me why, the contact I had suggested that I should write something negative in the Forums as it is much better anyway…..

  • Donaldhump on 30/07/2018 - 06:11
    -1

    Take them to court

    • josho9 on 31/07/2018 - 22:42

      Depending on which state OP is in, the filing fee is likely to exceed the $80 shortfall in return postage, and OP is unlikely to recover the filing fee.

  • Quantumcat on 30/07/2018 - 06:27

    Because of the delays, my ability to claim under eBay has passed

    You shouldn't have fussed around with ACL, but started a claim right away. Try a credit card chargeback. If that doesn't work I think you're stuck with them.

    • LoftyAu on 30/07/2018 - 13:37

      Yeah I know, lesson learnt. Try and do the right thing (not escalate to a claim straight away).

      • Love a bargain on 30/07/2018 - 15:36
        +1

        The right thing is to always lodge a claim before the deadline if there is any suggestion that you might need to make a claim (e.g. you still haven't got it)

  • rambutann on 30/07/2018 - 07:50
    +2

    Can you send them back via sendle for less?

    • LoftyAu on 30/07/2018 - 13:38

      Perhaps, but still I shouldn't have to. They are fairly large bulky, I still have to work out how to package and send them too.

  • Ocker on 30/07/2018 - 08:16

    Where is the seller located - Australia of Overseas?

    • LoftyAu on 30/07/2018 - 13:38

      I suspect overseas, but they have given me an Australian address to return to.

      • Ocker on 30/07/2018 - 15:19

        If the seller is based overseas then Australian authorities cannot assist.

  • CLoSeR on 30/07/2018 - 09:23
    -6

    PayPal has decided; pay for postage and move on.

    • SlickMick on 30/07/2018 - 09:37
      +2

      paypal got it wrong. They're making decisions out of their depth, and time they got schooled in ACL.

  • Randxyz123 on 30/07/2018 - 10:37

    Accc won’t help with private eBay sales.

    Contact eBay support get them to help.

    Otherwise assuming you’ve activated PayPal returns they’ll cover it.

    • LoftyAu on 30/07/2018 - 13:39
      +1

      It's a transaction between a seller and a buyer, would have thought consumer protection would be useful.

      Already tried eBay support, they fobbed me off to PayPal because of the time elapsed.

      Didn't have PayPal returns activated.

      • Love a bargain on 30/07/2018 - 15:36

        Activate it now.

      • bashar20 on 30/07/2018 - 19:28
        +1

        You can activate free returns now. And use it for previous orders. I did the same and worked for me last year.

  • eggles01 on 30/07/2018 - 15:36
    +2

    google "Ebay customer service" then scroll down the list until you see "contact ebay customer service" and at the bottom of the page you are given the option of chat or contact which has a 1800 number to ring,good luck

  • Captain M on 30/07/2018 - 21:07

    Damn hope my 100W panels that I got for $10 recently isn't the same!

  • chrisdotpy on 30/07/2018 - 21:49

    Not sure if it helps, but you may want to run the postage costs through interparcel. I find them reasonable for shipping packages. Might be able to get it down a bit and lessen the pain.

  • cloudie9 on 30/07/2018 - 22:13
    +2

    Could have done it within 30 days eBay Money Back Guarantee for item significantly not as described. Then, eBay will cover the cost of return. After 30 days, it will be more hassles like you are experiencing. Sometimes, this is one of the seller's tactic, to take as much time away from the money back period.

  • curtturtle on 31/07/2018 - 13:37

    So I have just been through this with paypal and I had to pay return postage but then could request paypal to reimburse me for the postage or part thereof through the buyer protection policy. I just called them. They are less than useless on via text.

  • prinsenhof on 31/07/2018 - 18:59
    +2

    Just an FYI,

    In the peak of summer (Start Jan) my 290w home solar panels output 268w. This week, the peak output has been 166w and that's from a microinverter system.

    This peak was the maximum reading from 1 of my 16 panels from the entire weeks worth of data.

    Pull the datasheet of the solar panels, they will give you a power curve and you'll find the peak ratings are given at 25 degree cell temperatures with maximum light. You cant expect capacity in winter.

    • LoftyAu on 03/08/2018 - 17:39

      Yeah these panels have no data sheet on them so I can't even check short circuit output etc.

      I agree with you that output will be less, but not half.

  • ashpete02 on 31/07/2018 - 19:02
    +2

    been through a similar issue… ended up returning it, paying myself for the postage, only to have the seller disappear, not answer any comms.. basically lost out as lost the item, the money I paid for the item, and the shipping.. I'd personally find another use for them and learn from the experience… (Yes I had tracking etc etc paypal and ebay were of no help at all). Sadly, i've had better experience with problem items with aliexpress sellers than the ebay paypal system… you can even try the product before they seller gets paid, therefore opening a dispute if something is wrong works more in your favor… much better system imo..

  • ozzpete on 01/08/2018 - 03:01

    return postage will cost me about $80 (on $250 worth of products) .

    I have heard of people sending items direct to PayPal's address, and then also doing card charge-back for full amount. This is said to work also, but PayPal won't like it.
    Im not sure if delivering to paypal is a cheaper option for you.

  • RedSky1 on 01/08/2018 - 09:58

    Firstly OP I reckon your story is all too common. I've returned a few panels that I have purchased on eBay due to low output, but luckily did get refunds.

    It is an absolute minefield to buy solar panels on eBay:

    1. A large percentage of solar panels sold on eBay Australia are seconds, i.e binned seconds panels that were not good enough to sell as new by the manufacturer, or returns that were low output. They will often be sold as A grade brand new panels, yet still only output 50-60% of their rated amount. Either that or they are rebadged panels, for example 80 watt panels that are fraudulently sold as 100 watt or similar.

    2. Even if you do get new solar panels that are legit, you will be lucky to get 80% of real rated output of the panel in almost ideal conditions, even while connected to a more expensive MPPT controller that can match the output to your battery. Manufacturers sell these things as peak output under ridiculously ideal conditions called the Standard Test Conditions (STC) rating, think 0 degrees in winter on a perfectly clear bright day at the perfect angle to the midday sun and only for 10 minutes at a time, otherwise the panel gets to hot and the output degrades. Some manufactures are starting to give better more realistic ratings called the Nominal Operating Cell Temperature (NOCT) which is a much more realistic rating, and the same panel using this rating will have a lower rated wattage output than the same panel with the STC rating.

    • LoftyAu on 03/08/2018 - 17:39

      Yeah this is what makes me hesitant to return them, and whether I just put the $80 towards another set of panels …

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