I agree it will cost more. But I don't agree with your take on the number of years warranty they decided on. Would you be happy if a $30,000 car had two major faults in 5 years?
VW Jetta Has Had 2 Major Faults in 5 Years. What Are My Rights? » All Comments
They offer a warranty for a certain time period, after that they no longer owe you anything. Car parts wear out eventually and need to be replaced. You should consider yourself lucky they are offering you anything.
This car part did not wear out from frequent use. The car part broke off within the inside of the gearbox. It is a known issue. The issue was present when the car was designed and sold to me. It took time on the road for this issue to come to light. Therefore the warranty period is irrelevant.
Just an question… how long is the popular consensus for the lifespan of a gearbox? km? years?
This is only half true; outside of warranty the ACL still applies. OP's plan to complain to the ACCC is definitely worth it, although it seems that they're a bit of a paper tiger.
@hypie: Oh definitely; the threat of the tiger works well. I've lost count of the number of times I've mentioned the various ombudsmen, but I've only actually had too follow through once, the threat is almost better than the thing itself :D
@ely: The pen is mightier than the sword, but with car dealerships and manufacturers it looks like you need both and probably some nuclear arms.
The VW is probably still within warranty as far as the consumer law is concerned, but I am no lawyer. A recent court case ended badly for range rover, where they had to refund $283,000 because the car was shitheap and the buyer was able to argue and win that the car was "unfit for purpose".
https://www.bay939.com.au/news/local-news/98809-couple-puts-…
That car was bought in 2015. Couldn't have been more than 3 years old, certainly not over 5 years old like OP's car here.
Also many more major issues than OP's car.
Basically other than the heading, two completely incomparable cases.
And also comparing a top of the line luxury car owned by a a rich, cashed up woman with a powerful husband to OP, who bought one of the cheapest VW models on the market and an OzBargain account…
But, as an ex-Land Rover mechanic, can confirm, Range Rovers are shit boxes…
@pegaxs: I would suggest $30,000 for a car isn't cheap. But yes it might be one of the cheaper VW's on the market.
It sounds like every mechanic thinks every brand is a Sh!t box, unless it's Jap. I don't doubt it, but why do people still buy those cars?
@hypie: I was making reference to comparing the 2 year old, $280,000 Range Rover owned by a wealthy woman and her husband with your case, being that of an average priced car that is over 5 years old. They are not even remotely related.
And no, not all mechanics think that. I happen to think that BMW make a nice car, so do Hyundai, Kia, Lamborghini, Porsche and a host of other non-Japanese car makers. Unfortunately, Land Rover are not one of them, neither is VW.
And why do people keep buying those cars? Who knows, with all the bad press and terrible ownership stories of these vehicles, I will never understand why people buy into it… some are more easily lead into marketing bullshit than other, I guess…
@pegaxs: Yes, I know what you were referring too. But I dispute that $30,000 should be considered a cheap car! mo' money.
@hypie: For a European car, I would absolutely consider it a cheap car. VW make some expensive cars, yours is not one of them. It is no more expensive than an equivalent Hyundai.
Sure, compared to a packet of Tim Tams, it is expensive, but compared to other similar makes and models at the time, it was about average, so no, it’s not an expensive car when considering where it fits into the market.
Your parents obviously thought it was cheap enough and good value for money when they purchased it, so, I will still argue, it’s a cheap car. If it wasn’t, they would have bought something else…
@pegaxs: I disagree, I accept your perspective. The median income in Australia is roughly $44,000. I think $30,000 can be considered significant in anyone's eyes. Yes I know more expensive cars exist. But that doesn't make this a cheap car.
@hypie: Neg me all you want, it doesn’t make it an expensive car. At $30,000, it is about average price for your typical new family sedan.
I could sit here and reel off car after car after car that fits in this price bracket. It isnt expensive when you consider what you are buying. It’s price was about market average for a brand new car of its type.
The other point is, YOU didn’t pay $30k for it and you paid your parents for it, so in the end, it isnt a $30k car after all. It’s $30k - your contribution…
$30k is only expensive if it is relative to something. You are comparing buying a car for $30k and $30k for just being what it is. It just doesn’t work like that. Is $30k expensive for a bicycle? yes. It’s hellishly expensive. Is $30k expensive for your average family sized European sedan, no. It’s about market value. For the same reason companies don’t sell many $30k bicycles, if VW tried to sell this car at what people considered “expensive”, they would not sell any.
And negging me doesn’t make me wrong, it just shows you’re all butt hurt. Pffft, people and their fake internet points…
I disagree, I accept your perspective.
Yeah, nah. I’ll put that in the “I’m not a racist, buuut…” genre of sayings… if you accepted my perspective, you would have said that and left it.
@pegaxs: Sorry that was an accident and I can't take it back unfortunately. You can have a nice shiny plus here since it upset you so much.
It still is a lot of money.
You get a 2 year warranty on your $300 mobile phone.
Why is it acceptable for you to get 3 years warranty on a $30,000 car.
Also… $30,000 is expensive no matter what argument you make. Also as a consumer you expect more reliability and durability from a major brand name manufacturer with a 80 year history of producing cars. I would say $17-22,000 would be the price for an 4 seater sedan entry level car like this? So people have obviously payed a significant premium for this particular model/brand.
Also your argument about who paid what is irrelevant. The car still has it's original owner registered on the stamp duty.
@hypie: Are you seriously comparing a phone to a car with regards to warranty expectations?
Do you treat your car the same way you treat your phone? Do you know how many moving parts and systems there are in a car? There is about 3 moving parts in your average phone. Also, one of these things fits in your pocket, the other does not.
While we are at silly comparisons, do you leave your phone outside on the road, close to the gutter when you go shopping? It’s only $300… your car is in the thousands, why would you just leave something that expensive just sitting around outside?
See how silly the comparison sounds now?
And $30,000 is expensive, no matter what arguments I make? Ok, I’ll happily offer this… if you were offered a nice 4 bedroom home on Sydney’s north shore, say Mossman, for $30,000, is that expensive? Should I try and get a better deal?
“Expensive” is relative. You just don’t get that part. Sure, if you’re a disgruntled, young millennial who thinks the world is unfair, then yes, a $30k car may seem expensive. For a family of 4 looking for a “new” family car, their budget is going to be around $30k. So no, it is not expensive. Expensive is relative to somethings value as perceived by the buyer.
You are angry at something. You can’t see things in a relaxed, calm and rational way. This thread is a testament to your emotions running off the hook. You don’t take advice from people and you want to argue tooth and nail with them. Did you come here for advice or to get all worked up and angry?
While I agree in some parts with regards to warranty and ACL, cars should last longer considering their price and construction, but after 5 years (2 outside the contracted warranty period your parents signed off on) they came back with a remedy being offered and your out of pocket expense of $1000. Seeking a full refund stinks of entitlement and being petulant. ACL states repair, replace or refund. You don’t get to pick, they just have to offer you one. I know you won’t like hearing it, and it’s evident from your diatribe above that you think having a temper tantrum will fix it.
Out of curiosity, have you mentioned anywhere in this post how many KM he car has travelled in this 5 years?
@pegaxs: 1) I use my phone every day for about 12 hours a day. Have you noticed how hot these things get when you have them plugged in or forget it and leave it in the car? It still works the next day doesn't it. I don't think its an unfair comparison. But lets move onto dishwashers, washing machines, boats. who cares. They all should be expected to last for a what consumer expectation deems a reasonable amount of time. This is a consumer guarantee. If you don't understand this, then you will never understand it. Maybe you need to read the ACL properly.
2) This was exactly my point. If you spend $30,000 you expect it to last longer. You expect it not to have major faults, you also expect these major faults not to be widespread. Maybe you don't, but I do. I also think the average consumer does too. And guess what, this is why warranty periods are becoming more irrelevant or they are getting LONGER to an acceptable level by consumer expectations.
3) Your car isn't touching the ground. The tyres are touching the ground. The car was kept in a locked garage. I am not complaining about the paint rusting, I am complaining about two MAJOR FAULTS occuring to what appears to be THOUSANDS of people around the world (based on this small sample size). Also, i could probably leave my phone sitting on the ground outside in the rain and it would be fine. What is your point?
3) This whole post is about what the AUSTRALIAN PUBLIC deems a reasonable expectation. I think it is reasonable for the AVERAGE punter earning $44,000 a year, to consider $30,000 expensive. The reason this is about reasonable expectation is because that is what ACL is based on. Not because some fatcat at VW decided they could only economically cover manufacturing faults for 3 years. You clearly are confusing wear and tear with manufacturing faults.
4) Your expensive is relative comment/analogy is one of the most irrelevants things I have read in this thread. A car is a car, $30,000 is a significant amount of money for a car. Despite what you might think Mr Gates.
5) I'm not angry at anything, except having to waste my time replying to you. This anger should be directed at VW and their systematic breaches of ACL.
6) Also you clearly don't know ACL, so stop trying to quote it incorrectly. The law states that the consumer can opt for a REPAIR, REPLACEMENT or REFUND. This is not the choice of the dealer or manufacturer. If it is a major fault covered by consumer guarantees under ACL. You are entitled to a major resolution and the choice is yours. So many people who clearly don't understand the legalities of consumer protection and Australian consumer law make so many incorrect statements. Join the group.
7) Oh and millennials are probably disgruntled because they have to put up with baby boomer dealership owners breaking consumer law. Massive corporations covering up systematic and widespread manufacturing faults that make products unsuitable for purpose. I'm sure that Australian made FJ Holden that you owned when you were my age was made a hell of a lot better than the VW Jetta 118TSI MY13.
Finally.. the car had done 40,000km when the initial jerkiness was noticed. The car totally failed at 50,000km.
How long do you expect a gearbox to last and a $30,000 car. That is the only question you should answer. If your answer is 3 years, then I would have accepted your opinion and you could go back to trolling somewhere else. If when you are buying your next $30,000 car, I tell you that in 5 years it will stop working completely and need a major rebuild. What would you say?
oh and just so you don't waste anyone elses time.
When there is a major failure to comply
with a consumer guarantee, the
consumer can choose to:
• reject the vehicle and choose a repair,
refund or an identical replacement
(or one of similar type and value if
reasonably available) from whoever
supplied the vehicle (e.g. the
dealer).Thanks for trying, you can catch the bus back to 8 mile now.
@hypie: 1: comparing apples and oranges. Use that "phone" comparison in your defence when you call the ACCC… (Or try the Chewbacca defence. ie: the one you are using now…)
2: A car does last longer than a phone. My car is 10 years old. My phone, is not.
3: Tyres are part of the car. Ergo, car is touching the ground. (tyres are kind of what makes a car… a car.)
3(again??): Then don't buy new cars over $10,000. Car makers will sell none and have to lower prices. Or as a millennial, we could all vote for the socialist party, and that way, equal cars for everyone!!
4: Expensive is relative. Significant amount of money =/= expensive. Comparing a car to a phone, that is irrelevant.
5: Your 3 page diatribes and emotionally charged responses paint a different story. (see below for more.)
6: I know ACL well enough. I deal with it at work on occasions. You are the one that seems out of touch, wanting a full refund on a 5 year old vehicle. Good luck with that.
7: Oh boo hoo, big bad baby boomers ruining it for the youth… And in 30 years, the younger generation will be crying… "Oh, boo hoo, the millennials ruined it for us…" Lets all vote socialist party next time! :~( (just for clarity, I'm not a baby boomer, but all millenials think I am.)
So, the gear box failed at 50,000km? This is what I would be hinging my ACL on, NOT the 5 years old part. It's the amount of usage you have to look at if you want to tantrum your ACL rights. Trying to push a 3 year warranty out to 5 years will not be an easy task. Making a point that the car failed at 50,000km is a much easier task. How long would I expect a gearbox to last? On a VW, not long. Surprised it lasted that long, actually.
LONGER/MAJOR FAULTS/THOUSANDS/REPAIR, REPLACEMENT or REFUND./AUSTRALIAN PUBLIC/AVERAGE
repair/refund
you could go back to trolling
you can catch the bus back to 8 mile now.Caps, bold, assumption of trolling and a crude reference to I don't know what… Yep, no emotion, totally logical and rational discussion. (Nonsense comparisons, name calling, innuendo and aspersions are usually signs that you are in too deep, know you're wrong and are desperately gasping for air as you drown in a discussion you cant win.)
I could break everything you said down even further, but you have the red mist and people don't need the wasted space on the first page from your inevitable 4000 word essay reply.
@pegaxs: And I'm not a millennial mate. When you proved lack of knowledge on the topic, I stopped taking you seriously and started trolling you back. You clearly lack any knowledge of consumer law and the act.
So if you don't know something, just move on. If you don't have any useful input move on
You are embarrassing yourself now. I got your south park reference, you don't need to spell it out. Reduces the impact.
You and the rest of the responders who don't take a proper moment to read through facts and respond inteligeably are the ones who think I'm out of touch.
Anyone who is actually educated in this topic is well aware that we changed the act in 2010 to stop things like this from happening.
I just had someone say there was no lemon laws in Australia. What does he think the ACL is?
Also expensive is relative. And this conversation is about ACL which is about what someone in Australia would reasonable believe. Because you might be in the top1% driving your Porsche, it really doesn't impact on what the wider majority things is expensive. I based it on the Australian median income. Now drop it. You were wrong.
And I'm not a millennial mate.
Riiiight… Maybe I got it wrong. Perhaps Gen. Whine?
blah blah you dont know, blah blah lacks knowledge…
Could you strawman any harder? You are the one that needs to revisit the ACL.
If you don’t know nuffin'
Seems I know more than you.
Embarrassin' yaself.
Have you read over your replies?
You and everyone else…
So, a majority of people here are telling you the same thing, and you're still arguing? Why did you post if you already know all the answers?
Changed in 2010…
I thought it was 2011 it came into effect. I suppose it was tabled prior to that date.
errr… lemon laws are sooo real.
Australia does not have defined "lemon laws" as such. We have rights afforded to us under ACL. Feel free to post the "Lemon Law" legislation. There is a movement underway at the moment calling for "Lemon Laws", but as of now, so such laws seem to exist.
From the ACCC website:
You can ask a business for your preference of a free repair, replacement or refund, but you are not always entitled to one.
If the business fails to give you a free repair within a reasonable time or cannot fix your problem, you can:
* ask for a replacement
* ask for a refund
* recover compensation for the drop in value below the price paid.Did the repair they offer take an unreasonable amount of time? Are they unable to fix your problem? VW offered to do the repairs for nothing. The dealer is the one charging you $1000 for "diagnostics".
You don’t get to buy a used car off your parents and claim ACL. If anything, your parents sold you a dud car. Why are you not asking about taking them to court? They sold you a car with a known defect, not the VW dealership. They seemed to have gotten a "really really expensive" Eclipse out of this deal, and you got a cruddy German shitbox with gearbox issues. Sounds like the people stitching you up are your parents.
I purchased exclusive use of the car from my parents
HAHAHAAH… No you didn't. You changed that in the post. No one does that. Purchase exclusive rights. And I bet you're only down as an "occasional driver" on the insurance as well?? lol
I purchased the car off my parents for the trade-in value at the time.
This was the original, and a more truthful version of what you did.
@pegaxs: Wow you are getting desperate with your arguments.
1) Cool… If VW and the Dealership can prove that my father sold the car to me. Without any change to the registration details or without a papertrail/bank transfer. Then I will have absolutely no case whatsoever against the dealer. I'll let you know if this happens.
2) Laws came into effect in 2011, therefore anything after 2011 is covered by the current act. It was tabled in 2010.
3) I wrote my replies, and I read your replies.
4) The quote you got from the ACCC website is completely out of context and just wrong. What you quoted was the overarching statement about ACL. It wasn't referencing minor or major fault in particular.
If you have a minor problem with a product or service, the business can choose to give you a free repair instead of a replacement or refund. When you have a major problem with a product, you have the right to ask for your choice of a replacement or refund.
https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees…
This isn't even directly quoted from the Motor ACCC handbook. It is from the website.
Dude you are wrong about this, just let it go. You keep getting it wrong! and you keep trying to quote out of context to make your point. Which is just wrong. I don't know how many more times I need to say wrong before you learn how to use the search function on your browser.
I googled the quote you gave me, it was just above the line I quoted you. Please do your research before arguing with me. I don't need to do it for you.
WHY?
Also if you don't think this is a Lemon Law… what is going to be different about the changes?
A product or good has a major problem when:
it has a problem that would have stopped someone from buying it if they’d known about it - If we knew the car had a gearbox that would fail after 50,000km we would not have purchased this car. If we knew the car would requite an major engine rebuild after 3 years, we would not have purchased this car.
it is significantly different from the sample or description - probably can't argue this one. I'm sure somewhere in the marketing material, they would have claimed it was a SMOOTH drive. I have no evidence.
it is substantially unfit for its common purpose and can’t easily be fixed within a reasonable time - IT is unsuitable for driving, because I can't accelerate anymore. Prior it is unsuitable for purpose because I can't accelerate without feeling an uncontrollable jerk. Finally I don't have the ETA.
it doesn’t do what you asked for and can’t easily be fixed within a reasonable time; or
it is unsafe. - it is unsafe to drive this car. I felt unsafe crossing lanes to turn.Why is this a major fault you might ask? Well because the service tech said that a full gearbox rebuild was a major fault in any car. It is not a cheap repair and would involve several hours worth of work. It is a major component of the car that can affect the safety.
You know why I dislike you the most out of everyone who has replied in this post. It's because you keep trying to debate with me by using false and misleading information. Just like VW/Dealership.
@hypie: Oh good lord. Here I was hoping for an early night… Looks like it’s time to get the crayons out…
1: Your own words were “I bought the car from my parents”. You then later changed your statement to suit your agenda. No one pays their parents for “exclusive rights”.
2: Already confirmed. Re-hashed for??
3: You really should try reading your own replies back to yourself. When you do that, if they sound off, emotional, not on topic or irrelevant, you can pick it up.
4: Quote is from ACCC website. It’s only out of context because it doesn’t suit you.
Then you go on to regurgitate something you cut and pasted to try and justify what ever it is you are hoping to achieve. The fact of the matter is, you purchased the car from your parents. You stated this in your original post, before you moved the goal posts to suit yourself.
The fact remains, you purchased the car from your parents and ACL does not apply to private sale of vehicles.
it has a problem, yadda yadda: You said yourself that it showed signs of failing at least 10~20,000km before it failed. You purchased it anyway. So, that’s your mistake and this doesn’t apply. You bought it knowing it had a fault of some description.
significantly something something: Got a link to the original brochure about the transmission? Pretty sure “crap gearbox” isn’t a feature and was it “significantly” different at the time of purchase?
substantially blah blah: “reasonable amount of time” Have they given you a time frame? Or you just going to continue arguing with them so it draws it out longer?
unsafe: possibly, can’t argue that one as I have not test driven your car.
But then again, under ACL, all of this comes back to my original comments… are they offering a solution? Yes. Are you being petulant about it, yes.
The other fact is that you purchased this car at a “trade in price”, not a retail price. You have saved possibly thousands of dollars off the same vehicle if you were to buy it from a dealer with statutory warranty. VW have said they will pay for the repairs to the transmission and you will be out of pocket for “diagnostics” of $1000. Adding that cost to the cost of buying the car, you are still well out in front of what the car would have cost you otherwise.
And no, the reason you dislike me the most is because I don’t take to people making shit up, spreading false information or changing their story and I will call people out on it. I only tend to rub these types of people up the wrong way when I use facts. People who make up stories tend to get butt hurt with me, because I don’t accept bullshit as fact. I try to gather all the facts and present it as such. The only one issuing up false and misleading information, is you… Your story changes with nearly every iteration of its telling.
Oh, that, and I don’t care about fake internet points. I would rather be right with a thousand neg votes, than to let it slide or agree just for some imaginary green “+” symbols.
@pegaxs: 1) Cool story bro.
2) I posted this elsewhere:
"Hell if you want the irrelevant TRUTH… I haven't actually paid them a cent. Because the incident happened before I had transferred any money (my company car was getting panel beating repairs so I could pass it on, I had just started using the VW). We made a verbal agreement that I would pay them $6000, however I haven't done it yet."
Ownership has never been changed, they have no provided me a receipt. I have no paid for any goods.
Mod: Removed inflammatory comment.
All of your arguments are not null and void.
3) Mate… YOU ARE WRONG! about acl, about the law, about the website. I don't know how you are still arguing this. It is in black and white on the website. PLEASE READ THE LAW or get a university education.
Oh no… you have no more arguments. cool.
@hypie: 1: re-read your own original post…
2: really? So, it’s gone from, I purchased the vehicle, to, it’s an exclusive use agreement to this new development? And I’m misleading?
As a health professional, one would think you would be able to keep emotions out of a conversation. Think I’ll pass on your referral…
All of your arguments are not null and void.
I know. That’s why I said them. Yours, however, are. (As well as some are irrelevant and off topic.)
Also, if you are going to make personal attacks or continue to go off topic, then I can no longer be party to this conversation. If you continue to keep changing your story though, I’ll be here.
@hypie: It seems pretty clear to me that you have a misunderstanding of how the ACL applies. Warranties implied by the a ACL run for a period determined by the value of the item relative to other similar items. So a $1200 phone relative to a $400 phone. This comparison is NOT made, for what I thought were obvious reasons, between drastically different products. The ACL doesn't imply a 20 year warranty on the $30,000 car because it's ten times the price of a $300 phone with a 2 year warranty. This is a hilariously useless comparison. The warranty also has nothing to do with your annual income and whether you subjectively think the product you bought was expensive - this makes no legal sense.
The long and short of it is, relative to other similar products (small sedans) $30,000 is not drastically more expensive than the average, and therefore likely will not have a drastically longer implied warranty than other products in its field.
Do I think that the gearbox is a POS and VW should replace it free of charge? Yes. Do I think you should brush up on how the ACL actually works? Also yes.
@pegaxs: Laugh all you want. Plenty of people are receiving full refunds or no cost replacements on 3-4-5 year old Ford Focuses due to transmission issues. Myself included after owning the car for 3.5 years, doing 50k km and paying 23k for the car.
you are clueless
@j24bauer: I'm not laughing all I want. I owned a Focus shitbox with the dual clutch transmission. Unfortunately, I ended up trading mine in because it was just a shit box. And I agree with seeking some sort of resolution (OP admitted to being offered the transmission be repaired at no cost to them.). I don’t have an issue with people seeking a remedy for their vehicle issues. OP went straight to "I want a full refund!" when VW have offered to fix the problem. OP is looking to make money on this venture, not seek a suitable outcome.
You have obviously just skimmed over what was said and gleaned from it what you wanted to read. So, if you're going to troll, have at it, but I'm not indulging you any further.
The only one here that is clueless, is you. :)
@pegaxs: Just to clarify things to anyone who is following this post.
Pegaxs has private messaged me. He then blocked me from responding to his whinge about grammar? I don't even know what he was referring to.
"For what it is worth, I am an ex-dealer mechanic." - Basically he's one of them.
Also Johnno, everything you have said is wrong about the ACL. It does not give predetermined time frames, it is a vague law. The consumer guarantee law is also not based on the time period given by a manufacturing warranty.
No one suggested anything you said about 20 year warranties.
I said it was reasonable to expect a middle-high range european car to last more than 50,000km and 5 years without 2 major faults that cause the car to be unsuitable for purpose, unsafe to drive and had I known about these issues. Both you and I would not have bought this car.
Finally.
Whether or not you believe $30,000 is more or less expensive for the car is really up to you. The law is based on what a reasonable person would expect. A reasonable person would expect a european manufacturer who prides themselves on quality and has a strong reputation within the market to last longer than saw a Great Wall sedan.
I keep getting people to ask me to clear up on my ACL knowledge when they are clearly wrong.
Mate it is irrelevant what you think I deserve. If the issue is considered a MAJOR FAULT under the ACT (the dealer mechanic has said this is a phone conversation twice). Then guess what… it is a major fault and it comes under that banner within the legislation.
For anyone who has entered this conversation without research or knowledge.
https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/accc-takes-action-agai…
https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/volkswagen-undertakes-…Quote from choice: :But if all else fails, remember that famous saying: if life gives you lemons, then fully explore your refund and replacement rights under the Australian Consumer Laws.">
News article: The ACCC said complaints about new car manufacturers and retailers have risen to more than 10,000 over the past two years, highlighting widespread consumer issues in the industry.>
In one case cited in the report, a female buyer with transmission problems was told by a Ford dealer she should "drive more like a man" after her attempts to have a known problem fixed.
"That's extraordinary and it reflects a range of social attitudes that's for sure. To say that to someone shows a fair bit of disdain for the customer," Mr Sims said.< - Basically what people have been saying about driving the DSG. Don't creep etc, you are breaking your own car etc. I don't doubt this is not true.
I have quoted this so many times… but one more time.
Warranties against defects are always provided in addition to the consumer guarantees contained in the ACL.
In some instances a warranty against defects will provide the consumer with remedies that exceed those provided by the consumer guarantees. However, in other cases, consumers may be entitled to a remedy under the consumer guarantees after a warranty against defects period has expired.
You must take care to ensure that consumers are not misled, either through oral representations or in the words of a warranty against defects, into thinking that their rights are limited to the remedies or timeframe set out in a written warranty against defects.
A reasonable person would expect a european manufacturer who prides themselves on quality
every few consumers expects euro vehicle manufacturers to produce quality vehicles. no reasonable consumer would purchase a vw. sales figures shows that australian consumers have more confident in ford, kia and suburu than vw.
https://infogram.com/1pwe9z56gddplnhvl57vnd7nqgb9939lywx
https://www.caradvice.com.au/691800/vfacts-september-2018/@whooah1979: VW is the second largest car manufacturer in the world after Toyota. I think my point is fair.
In 2018 VW reclaimed it's spot at the top of the brand loyalty list, above Toyota. This was the first time since the emissions saga. Prior to this, VW was always on top for consumer confidence surveys and brand loyalty.
I think it is reasonable to expect the car would last more than 5 years.
OP went straight to "I want a full refund!"
Haha, man this guy… Just decides when he wants to make up things whenever he wants. I guess that's what you get taught at dealer mechanic school.
I actually simply asked them for a resolution, a repair. They refused to assess the car without me agreeing to pay $1000 for diagnostics. This was only agreed on the condition that they waive the $1000 if it is proven to be a manufacturing fault covered by VW. It was.
When they came back to me with the offer for full parts and repairs covered by VW, but still attempted to charge me diagnostics for something that was a warranty repair. I told them this was not acceptable. They then offered me the reduced rate of $300. I told them again this was not acceptable because VW has offered to cover the repairs and labour 100% because it is a well known fault. Following this I told them because this is a MAJOR fault, I would like a MAJOR remedy under ACL. This remedy would involve a full refund or replacement vehicle depending on my preference.
They then came back saying 100% waiving of the diagnostic costs and all repairs is the final offer they will give me. I asked him how will I know that the car and/or this part won't fail in less than 2 years. He could not give me any guarantees. He said that VW would normally give you a 2 year warranty on the gearbox rebuild, however this will only happen if you contribute to the repair costs. I asked him if I could clarify this with VW, he said I don't need to (sounds like bs). I told him this was not acceptable. I then clarified that this incident was a major fault and that I was requesting a major remedy under the Australian consumer and competition act 2010. He declared that he had given me his final offer.
I gave him a counter offer at this point. I wanted a full diagnostic mechanical workup of the car to ensure no future manufacturing faults are missed. I said that I would accept these terms, however I need everything documented. He accepted this offer and said he would call me back on the same day to give me the ETA on repairs. I have not yet heard back from him.
Yeah, I wrote a dummy query. But I'm waiting to hear what the manager says.
Seems to be a good deal to me too - was the car full VW service history?
Full complete history.
sounds like they've done you a favour a copped most of the cost of replacement the gearbox out of warranty. 1k to replace this from a VW service centre would be like 1/4 of the cost.
what do you think ACL is going to do for you? VW didn't sell you that car, your parents did.
I'm representing my parents, they are still the owners. They are dealing directly with the manufacturer.
2 months ago: I purchased the car off my parents
Which is it?
I'm not following?
@hypie: You said you purchased the car off your parents and are now claiming your parents own it.
Is it hard to follow your own story?
Maybe OP gave money to the parents in exchange for exclusive use of the vehicle but the ownership was never signed over. It sometimes happens between family.
@[Deactivated]: Eh, close enough. If the parents ever tried to take it back without his permission I think he'd have a good legal case to retain it (as long as he could prove the payment happened).
Of course, I'm only guessing and maybe OP is indeed full of shit, who knows.
@abb: Yeah but which is it? Did the OP, or did they not buy the car from their parents?
These are the questions that politicians are too scared to ask.
We need Tracy Grimshaw on this case!
@abb: This is correct. They still have ownership, I use the car. I have paid them for use of the car. I don't care about ownership of the car.
Why are we arguing about my parents taking my car? Why would they do that? why would I even care if they did? I've been using their brand new Mitsubishi Exceed for the last week while I have been without a car. We are a family.
I paid them for the car, they put it towards a new car. Why the hell does it need to be under my name? It's not my pride and joy. It's a car that needs to get me by for 2 years until my position within my company changes and I no longer need a car.
@Greihawk: No it doesn't. He can insure it under his name and list his parents as the owners. This conversation went way off track so easily.
@S2: Haha… yeah. I don't think that is correct Greihawk. I'm an insured driver on all of the family cars (we have 3). None are under my name.
@hypie: My point exactly, you are saying you are an insured driver, is that because your parents are paying insurance and listing you as an extra driver, or are you paying for insurance as the primary owner/driver, the difference can be huge.
@Greihawk: Tell me more? according to the insurance policy, I don't have to be the owner to be the primary driver?
This conversation went way off track so easily.
I agree, people are just trolling OP. After pegasus had his rant and whinge.
Most people would trust their parents enough to pay them money without making them sign papers to prove you paid them etc.
Ahh, so you’re dodging paying the stamp duty.
Gotcha
Why would you change the ownership details of your parents car to your name? Who benefits? I can still be listed as the primary driver for insurance purposes?
In what situations is it beneficial for me to have this car under my name? Other than claiming depreciation for tax purposes? I am more than happy to change it officially later when I am concerned about this and saving a bit on tax.
@hypie: I’d change it because once I paid for it, it became my car.
But I follow the law and pay my taxes.
@YellowDieselGolf: You can pay for something and not have the ownership change. I gave them a $6000 gift which they have put towards the new car. They have declared this as income. We had a verbal agreement that they retain ownership of the car and I have access to the car.
You are implying that I don't pay taxes and that I don't follow the law. Let me know if I'm doing something illegal here?
Hell if you want the irrelevant TRUTH… I haven't actually paid them a cent. Because the incident happened before I had transferred any money (my company car was getting panel beating repairs so I could pass it on, I had just started using the VW). We made a verbal agreement that I would pay them $6000, however I haven't done it yet.
Now what?
We had a verbal agreement that they retain ownership of the car and I have access to the car.
You own the vehicle while your parent is the registered operator. This is perfectly legal in nsw.
I’d change it because once I paid for it, it became my car.
In nsw the owner of a vehicle and the registered operator of a vehicle can be two different entities. Op can own the vehicle while their parent remain the registered operator.
@whooah1979: From :
https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/registration/transfer/index…
You need to transfer a vehicle’s registration into your name when it comes into your possession or management, for example if you buy a vehicle or inherit one.
note:buy a vehicle & become responsible for its management
Important: Roads and Maritime Services record the registered operator of a vehicle but do not record ownership of that vehicle. The registered operator is not necessarily the ‘owner’ of the vehicle but the person who assumes responsibility for the vehicle under road transport law.
op has responsibility for the car as he’s organising repairs and has exclusive use
@YellowDieselGolf: Just stop. OP does not need to transfer the vehicle. He is well within his rights to drive the car without registering it in his name. His insurance is legit and he's properly covered. He's not breaking any laws. If there is a safe, legal option for you to pay the government less duties, you should take it.
@johnno07: You’re all welcome to show me where it says that this situation is legal. Until then, I still take the position that OP is obligated to pay the stamp duty.
Also: just stop? I’ve replied once to my original position and provided evidence. That’s not excessive.
@YellowDieselGolf: stamp duty is due when they change the registered operator. Op isn't required to pay stamp duty because they haven't changed the registered operator.
@YellowDieselGolf: He doesn't have to show you it is legal, you need to show that it is illegal.
I have a presumption of innocence.
Since this was a legal point and not a civil one.
so you want a refund or a replacement car , while they already offered to fix it out of warranty ?
hehehe
Yes. They said it was a major fault. They offered to cover it. I want a major remedy as defined in the Competition and Consumer act 2010.
Tbh.. I would accept the stupid repair. But the attempt to charge me $1000 For a diagnostics. For a fault that is covered by VW as a manufacturing fault.
I pretty much agree with above. After 5 years you don't deserve a replacement, but I do think consumer law is on your side regarding the gearbox breaking down. It's reasonable to expect a gearbox to last for a very long time.
The gearbox didn't actually fail. A component of the gearbox was not attached correctly. By breaking apart from the gearbox internally it turned into shrapnel over time and caused irreversible damage to the gearbox.
How long do you think a gearbox should last? I don't think you should really base it on time? 10,000km, 20,000, 100,000? I have just had a bit of a google and it's hard to tell. But most suggest over 80,000km?
@hypie: That would be called 'splitting hairs' right there, the gearbox didn't fail - internal parts broke apart and damaged it …
I think a gearbox should last over 100,000 km or 10 years before you even need to change the fluid.
@bmerigan: He said this was a common fault, but I agree. The gearbox did not fail. The part failed and caused other catastrophic damage.
Hey, I don't know anything about cars or gearboxes. So i will take your word for it. All I know is I'm clearly not the only one (based on this thread, my ozbargain inbox and the service tech).
VW Jettas are awful.
move on OP.
Trying to… with a full refund.
Bwahahaha… Full refund… OMG. Best. Troll. Today!!
5yo car and you want a full refund. Best you could hope for is a remedy, which they seem to have offered you.
Full refund after 5 years if usage. Priceless.
It sounds like most of you don't understand ACL.
Let me put it this way…
I don't think the 2 year warranty was reasonable at the time. Or reasonable now. All of the current VW models come with 5 year warranties (why? Now?).
VW's suck ass.
Mod: Removed personal attack.
That isn't the point and I don't dispute it.
Also… without telling you my whole backstory. If this car lasted me 2 years from September 2017. I Would have bean around $35,000 better off before tax. I think it was a decent risk.
Just because their new cars now have 5 year warranty doesnt mean you will get 5 year warranty or what it implies. If it wasnt reasonable, your parents wouldnt have bought it.
You should definitely push to get the $1000 waived, or to push on them to try and claim it from VW. But I think you made a big mistake in quoting ACL to them, when it now makes you look like an a-hole and they will be inclined to help you less.
Do you have any more information on what exactly the first "major" fault was? Without specifics thats all hearsay
@k-rokfm: I think they were being aholes for charging me $1000 For diagnostics when the computer was quite aware of the issue and then once it was accepted to be a manufacturing issue which was reimbursed by VW, they still wanted it.
The first major fault was a cracked piston in the engine which resulted in a full engine rebuild and 4 pistons replaced.
I was not aware this had happened at the time.
I have had a few commentators claim this happened to their cars as well.
VW still offers 3 year warranty, you might be referring to a dealer extended warranty.
https://www.volkswagen.com.au/en/owners/warranty.htmlFair enough, I asked the service tech and he said 5 years. So maybe that is the warrant they provide. Many other manufacturers now offer 5 and 7 year warranties.
Not sure why the down-votes. A car that is regularly service should not have a major fault within the first 5 years.
Right?
How does a gear box fall apart leading to shrapnel damaging the internals.
How does a piston crack and require a full rebuild.
These flaws must have been apparent when the car was manufactured. It was a matter of time until it actually occurred.
Many commentators claim similar issues with the gearbox and engine for this model.
There are many reasons, just from the op's story, it may be that due to their particular driving style, extra wear and tear has occurred and combined with a manufacturing fault, has led to a breakdown, after all the op's father never noticed any problems when taking off at the lights, only the op.
It sounds like most of you don't understand ACL.
Or possibly, you don't understand the ACL. What you think is reasonable isn't relevant. Here's the ACCC's own guide:
https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Motor-vehicle-sales-and…
All timeframes I see refer to 18 months, 2 years, or 3 years. So your "5 year" time frame? Apparently not reasonable according to the govt body that administers and enforces the ACL.
If a consumer uses a vehicle normally,
and its condition deteriorates faster or
to a greater extent than would usually
be expected, then the vehicle may
have failed to meet the guarantee of
acceptable quality and the consumer may
be entitled to a remedyA warranty does not change your
responsibilities under the ACL. The
consumer guarantees apply in the same
way regardless of whether a vehicle is
covered by a manufacturer’s warranty,
an express warranty or an extended
warranty, or whether those warranties
have expired.Those are examples presented. However ACL is not limited to examples presented in the document. It is decided on a case by case basis. It is reasonable to think that someone who infrequently drives a car, but maintains it actively and appropriately should expect the car to last significantly longer than the provided manufacturing warranty.
Also thank you for that link! that is so useful. I have found all the information I need. Cheers.
It is reasonable to think that someone who infrequently drives a car, but maintains it actively and appropriately should expect the car to last significantly longer than the provided manufacturing warranty.
This is irrelevant, the “provided factory warranty” is completely seperate from any significant point you have raised. Your contracted warranty was for 3 years, and that lapsed two years ago.
My view on your point of “2 MAJOR FAULTS”, it’s up to a jury ofc, but since you’re farming for opinions, the first (pistons) is a moot point considering it happened well within warranty and was fixed. The second, a gearbox breakdown, very well known with VW 7-speed DSG’s, and they’ve offered you an out of warranty remedy, which is specific to the gearbox.
In the scheme of things, cars are expected to breakdown, in the past 5 years you’ve probably for the most part had a working vehicle, I strongly doubt you’d be able to get a full refund on your Jetta because of gearbox issues after 5 years. It’s specific to the gearbox, the remedy offered is to fix the gearbox, you can choose to get cash value of the gearbox and be left with a broken down Jetta, either way I personally don’t see this being a full refund, but of course if you are taking this to court anything can happen.
My parents had a 118TSI 2012 I think, it had to have the gearbox wiring loom (or was it the gearbox computer) replaced because there was a fault that caused it to burn out the bands and clutch plates.
Car has major engine work - probably the cause of the faults and you dont know anything about or aren't willing to fully disclose
You knew car had issues accelerating and with gearbox but still went ahead buying it from them
You bought the car but parents still own it an in their names
I'm not having an issue with my parents. I can get the money back from them $5000. Irrelevant.
Yes I just found out from them.
2016 crack in piston. All 4 replaced.
They own a car and drive it.
Leave it with them, you are doing a terrible job.
What?
@Zedsdeadbabyzedsdead: Right, now I understand.
You think I'm doing a terrible job by fighting for my consumer rights sure.
Let's do a case study.
65INCH Brand name TV paid $2700. 12 month warranty.
Light bleed on the panel after 12 months.. repaired and panel replaced.
Light bleed appears again 2 years after the initial incident.What would you do?
@Zedsdeadbabyzedsdead: Thanks John Hughes.
Thanks for your overwhelmingly useless input to this discussion.
@Zedsdeadbabyzedsdead: My contract is with the retailer. I don't have any rights against VW unless they breach the consumer protection act (import unsafe items etc).
That being said. I will be contacting them. If not only to find out how the dealer justifys charging me for diagnostics on something covered by VW under manufacturers guarantee.
Fyi. I had my 3 year old Samsung TV refunded fully for that incident. I put the money to a Sony Oled with no backlight issues.
@hypie: "I will be contacting them"
Should have done this before, I expect this to be done first thing in the morning and an update on the message board.
@Zedsdeadbabyzedsdead: That I will do. Followed by finding out what the manager at the dealership says. Then finally lodge my complaint.
@Zedsdeadbabyzedsdead: @hypie VW aren't a premium European car as you try and imply in your main post and their transmissions have a history of having faults. You bought this car knowing the risk and you got burnt.
The new cars are also a different model to your car, so you can't argue since the new ones have a longer warranty that yours deserve it.
Accept what VW are offering you and sell the car if you're that worried about it.
It sucks that the car seems to be a lemon and that Australia doesn't have lemon laws, but least it's only cost you $1k to repair a part that's well out of warranty and usually costs 4x as much to repair.
I bought a Tiguan Highline in April and mine jerks a little bit when accelerating at red light and a little when slowing down. Basically between first and second gear. I better get it checked out although first service is at 1 year mark only (2,500Kms on it)
Yeah… I would not sit on this stuff. I really wish I was involved when all the initial issues were happening.
It was quite frightening how bad it got.
It’s a symptom of the DSG transmissions. Which has always been the case since they came out. There’s plenty of information out there on them and cracked pistons (another very common VW issue).
Most people order better pistons from Europe (pretty sure it’s pelecan parts) and swap them to avoid having the issue again. DSG need to be driven like manuals so you can’t just slow down and then step on the accelerator as it freaks out. Same thing with creeping in stop start traffic. Apparently the newer software update fixes this but I’m not sure how true this is.
I spoke to the guy I bought it from (Salesman). He said its a characteristic of the DSG and is not a fault? What do you guys think? Take it in anyways?
@El Grande: I've never driven a VW DSG, but I've heard heaps of comments in reviews that they are jerky at low speed.
@El Grande: I'd say it's a characteristic of the transmission. If it starts doing it with other task then it seems faulty.
When you slow down (approaching a red light) the transmission thinks it's going to shift down a gear and preselects a lower gear. If you suddenly accelerate it causes a shift as it adjusts to it. It's just a characteristic of the units. In my experience they all do this, some are smarter than other ones though.
@El Grande: I have a 2011 VW DSG. 90k. It doesn't do this. Smooth as. Great geabox, great car. Not jerky at low speed.
I wouldn't accelerate at red lights if I were you…
Is the Jetta from Germany too. I heard the South African and Mexican built ones are not that great when it comes to QC.
Not sure, the Mercedes C200 W205 is manufacturered in Safrica. I haven't heard too many complaints. But I'm not a huge VW fan.
Jetta is pure Mexican-made trash.
Old colleague purchased one new in 2011, after 2 DSG swaps and a cracked piston they practically traded in the car for almost nothing and got a Mazda 6
So it looks overwhelmingly like most people think I don't have a chance. I guess we will find out soon. I hate organisations that sell people terrible products and expect you to deal with it because they slapped a 1 or 2 year warranty tag on it.
"Under the Australian Consumer Law, automatic consumer guarantees apply to many products and services you buy regardless of any other warranties suppliers sell or give to you."
https://www.choice.com.au/transport/cars/general/articles/le…
If anyone has actually successfully dealt with a similar situation. I would like to know more.
Perhaps cut your losses, repair and sell car.
Get japanese from now on.
https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/410523#comment-6491033OP…asking for a full refund for a 5 year old car is unreasonable.
They are required to fix the problem and they are doing just that.
I do agree with you that the $1,000 should not be charged, it should be part of the overall analysis and fix process.
Fair point. If the car had a 5 year warranty would you say the same thing though?
Yeah charging for diagnostics seems like a grab for cash. Which is why I escalated my request for a major remedy.
But it doesn't have a 5 year warranty, and the fact that new models have one doesn't mean anything for yours since it is presumably a new model vs an older one. KIA offers 7 year warranties now but that doesn't mean the model sold in 2011 should also be covered until now.
That said, I do agree that the $1k diagnosis charge is a cash grab, but then I also think the VW service center probably wouldn't have offered to fix the issue for free without the $1k charge that you agreed to and accepted in the first place, before any work was done.
You keep talking about this 5 year warranty the new cars come with.
This car was purchased March 2013, even if it came with a 5 year warranty, it would have still expired in March 2018, before your current issue.
You talking about this 5 year warranty is completely pointless as if it came with one, it’d still be out of warranty at the time of this current issue
I'm only arguing with people about the length of warranty to make an example that the industry has decided as a whole that 3 years was unreasonable. It does not matter it was 3 years, 5 years or 10 years. It has had two major faults that I believe do not comply with my consumer guarantees and therefore I have a right to make a claim. I may not get my ruling.
" and then refusing to abide by ACL."
The rights of the consumer only become effective if the consumer takes the retailer to a tribunal and gets a favourable judgement. Prior to that you have zilch.. nothing.
Threatening retailers with ACL or pointing out that they are in contradiction of ACL only makes them laugh at you because they know most people will not bother going through with all the pain of going through with it.
In your case it would be well worth it. Charging you $1000 to assess what is known to be a common fault is plain robbery and they know it.
When you get it fixed get rid of it and buy something Jap/Korean and live a life without major failures for a while.Edit: Check ACCC… I am sure I read somewhere that VW were recently dragged over the coals by them for giving VW owners a hard time with faulty cars and they were forced to address problems in a more positive manner.
Yeah it's a card you need to play. But at the same time I suspect I might have a case if we went to trial. Also consumer protection represents the Australian public in situations of systematic breaches. They also advocate for you prior to judgement in the hope of settlement.
You won’t have a case as the manufacturer has offered you a remedy by fixing the car.
Your car is 2 years out of warranty hence the charge.
ACL over-rules warranty. If a reasonable person expects a car to last 5 years without the gearbox catastrophically failing, then that's what the retailer needs to supply. (e.g. many new cars now come with a 7 year warranty. I've driven 20 year old cars with perfectly intact gearboxes)
OP should probably not have agreed to the $1k diagnostic fee in the first place, or gotten written guarantee that it would be refunded if a manufacturing defect was identified.
I hope OP does get his $1k back, but it might be a battle. It would seem to me that s/he may even have a case for a full refund…
https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees…
You seem pretty gungho and have made up your mind regardless of what we have to say.
/threadI'm not paying $1000 to diagnose something that was then covered by VW.
So the thread isn't over. Unless you think that is reasonable. Maybe I don't get my refund or replacement. But I sure as hell am not paying them to tell me my car has a major fault. When the accelerator stopped working. I figured that out myself.
When the accelerator stopped working. I figured that out myself.
Oh please. Did you know what the fault was? Diagnostics take time and effort - both of which cost money. I can understand you not wanting to pay it, but that's besides the issue.
I was pretty sure it was the gearbox when the gears wouldn't shift while trying to accelerate from stationary. It would get stuck on a gear and then I would have to trick the car into switching to a higher gear. So I was pretty damn sure it was gearbox related. They also would have had an error code, since the car showed two fault symbols on the dash.
You've probably read through many posts where people expressed their reliability frustrations with 2010-2014 VW products. Yes, it's a European car and you expect German quality to last longer before lunching the gearbox, but VW has a wretched reputation from that era regarding their engines and gearboxes. And this is before we discuss VW's criminal behaviour in the diesel emissions scandal.
Take the deal that's offered. I suggest selling the car after it's repaired. Hopefully you run into a buyer who still things a German product is automatically superior.
I won't get more than 6k for this car, less with that history I guess?
And my corolla 2016 hynrid which i have done 48k so far is still going stronk hehe
stronk.
You might need a new keyboard though……..
Yes stronk, indeed haha, but honestly i abuse that car so much, right now, im doing great ocean road road trip. The day after i bought it, road strip to sydney straight away
My previous work car was a Camry hybrid. One reliable and smooth car. Loved it. But this was an economic decision I couldn't go past.
To answer the OP's question, IMO yes it is unreasonable to demand a full refund or replacement vehicle for a 5 year old car (no matter what the warranty period is). I would fight regarding paying the diagnostic fee though. Just let them fix it.
Wait what… So you think it's unreasonable for a customer to expect a full refund or replacement for a major fault within warranty?
What is the actual point of ACL then?
I had a similar issue with my 2010 Golf 118TSI. After 5 years and 65000 km it had the symptoms of a cracked piston (diagnosed by independent mechanic). VW advised that they MIGHT help with the cost of a new engine but first it would need to be strpped down at a cost of more than $1k. I didn’t want to take the risk of paying for the strip down and then possibly a new engine because VW decided after all that it wasn’t their fault. I traded the car in at a crap price.Found out afterwards that the cracked piston issue was a very common problem with that model engine and VW obviously knew all about it.
Wow, parents had exactly the same issue in the same car, except less kms. VW completed an engine rebuild free of charge.
Yeah guys, I mentioned to someone above. In 2016 it had this piston issue and had the engine rebuild done for free. Cracked piston… seems to be a systematic decision to use a Rubish engine.
Yeah mate, 100% would have got that repaired.
How much did you trade it in for?
Yep, parents Golf had gearbox issues an cracked piston issue also. Both fixed under warranty.
I'm no car expert, but my understanding is the DSG is jerky under 20 kms per hour…just the way they are.
Dsg transmissions are known for this. Stop/start is not great in a dsg. Once on the move they perform well. A standard auto is better in traffic.
If you use stop/start with auto-hold on, it works a treat. Tap the accelerator before you take off, the engine fires up and then move off.
You are getting a good will repair 2 years out of warranty for the second owner. You are quite lucky with VW as they treat consumer law as optional and customer service 🤣 as an inconvenience. The first major fault was 100% warranty cover and was fixed and hasn’t happened again = no ACL grounds to claim, second major fault = you agreed to $1000 diagnosis cost, and once diagnosed, is a free repair. Stump up the money and move on (the car that is) cause VW DSGs from around that time are AWFUL POS’.
And we all know what VW stands for, Virtually Worthless.
Damn 🐵 spanking cancer causing asshats.Most of what you have said about ACL is wrong. The ownership details are still in my parents name.
What I don’t get is that you agreed to the diagnostic labour which includes removing the gearbox from the car, disassembly and diagnosis of parts affected. They have then gone to VW head office for a goodwill out of warranty repair which is going to be covered as in new parts and labour to repair and re-install. So who needs to cover the cost of diagnosis? The owner that agreed to the cost. If the repair was a $700 throttle body would that be considered grounds for your ACL actions? No you’d just stump up the $1000 for diagnosis and replacement. So why are you worried so much about the $1000 in this instance?
From the original post
"Now i've taken it to the dealer. They told me that they would only assess it if we payed them $1000+. We accepted this on the condition that if it was a manufacturers fault, the car would be repaired for free."
You know what, it wasn't the $700 throttle body, it was the several thousand dollar gearbox. The same gearbox that appears to be failing in a unacceptable high rate for this particular model on a population scale. The service tech told me that this was a common issue that appears to plague this model.
This is why I'm worried about my $1000, this is why I argued my case and this is why I got that ridiculous fee waived.
It is unjust having to pay for the diagnostic cost if it has been agreeded that it is the manufacturer's fault. Perhaps, recover the diagnostic fee charged by the dealership with VW directly? And log a formal complaint with VM on the dealership's poor behaviour and services which are damaging VW's reputation.
Or tell the dealer to get the random $1000 from VW
damaging VW's reputation.
This isn't possible after dieselgate and monkeygate. This company only cares about their bottom line.
Apparently recent surveys have shown that customer satisfaction and trust in VW has returned to levels prior to those incidents.
Terrible car, dealership and manufacturer.
No-one really cares about dieselgate. Everyone went along with the brouhaha because it's trendy to like the environment and castigate big companies, but if you told me my car right now was putting out 50% more emissions and giving me more performance? I'd be ok with that.
@HighAndDry: No one has reacted with the same ire over Toyota, GM or Ford committing crimes where hundreds of deaths were directly attributed to their behaviour. It seems like Dieselgate just galvanised/justified peoples hate for VW even more.
Japanese manufacturers that lied about their fuel consumption figures? No one batted an eye. The funny thing is, if a car can't meet it's consumption figures easily, it can't meet its quoted emissions numbers either.@Buckshot: Yeah exactly. I mean - Ford Pinto anyone? Takata airbags? Nah, Dieselgate just tickled everyone's then-trendy outrage itch for "omg the environment!" and in the US "omg foreign car makers!" etc.
118tsi is known to be a terrible engine. 7 speed DSG is known to be a terrible gearbox. Plenty of history of this. They have/are replacing both, stop whining. There is absolutely zero chance you will get money or a new car. I'm in the industry, only time I've ever heard of buybacks was from Foton lol.
That seems fairly common for an out of warranty car. Be thankful that they're covering it out of warranty at all. $1k seems excessive though, I'm guessing they've needed to pull the gearbox out to diagnose the issue.
Similar thing happened to my Jeep, just outside of warranty and the gearbox went. I was told I'd have to pay diagnostic costs + labor but parts would be covered if there was a defect. I was fine with that because the gearbox is like….5k from them new or $1800 second hand from a wreckers. Their diagnostic fee was onlylike $160 though.
In the end they didn't charge me a cent though, I don't know why.
They call it a good will repair or something like that since it's out of warranty.
We expected the car to $30,000 european car to last at least 5 years if not more.
This surly has to be a typo. No euro no matter the price is going to give 5 years of trouble free ownership. Euro are stylish and loaded with gadgets, but their reliability isn't up to the same standards as Asian built.
That's an opinion, but not public expectation. You pay more for premium in the hope it lasts longer.
I don't think European is premium, but that's how it is.
This is a public forum. What else would you call basically the consensus view on this topic here but "public expectation"?
I would agree, but I don't think the ozbargain forum is the right place to be taking Australian public consensus polls.
We are a special breed, usually more aware than the general public. I.e. my parents.
Once again If you look at some recent consumer confidence surveys… VW had come back to near the top. Following the emissions saga.
@hypie: Fair point. But see the ACCC's own guidance publication on the issue. They don't give a definite cut-off (because ultimately it's case-by-case) but all their examples quote timeframes of between 18months - just over 3 years. It's not determinative or conclusive, but it's pretty telling.
@HighAndDry: Agreed it's a fluid definition because it is case by case basis. I believe they have systematically covered things up and they are trying to force customers to pay this diagnostic charge illegally. I also believe a $30,000 car should not fail after 3 years (initial repair) and then again after 5 years. These are two separate major faults that have stemmed from inept manufacturing processes and parts.
You want a refund on a 5 year old used car? What is wrong with you?
Nothing, I think that is reasonable. Obviously you don't.
Hahaha… completely agree with you.
It's a bit like paying for a buffet dinner, filled the tummy up full of oysters and prawn, then finding that the coffee machine wasn't working and so demand the full cost of the dinner back.
Completely unreasonable I tell you.
I think it's more like..
You bought a car for $30,000, you expected the car to last around 3 years of frequent driving, however you don't drive frequently and therefore expect the parts to last longer than 3 years based on the use. The car engine was poorly designed and therefore at around the 3 year mark, the pistons melt/crack and the engine requires a full major rebuild. You go along with that plan, thinking that this was an unusual occurrence, but fine they fixed it.
Two years later the gearbox fails despite infrequent use. You become aware that this has been a common fault and was an issue with the design and manufacturing process when you purchased the car. You were not aware of this. You expected a car to last. The car did not last. You want your money back because the car was not suitable for purpose and could potentially endanger lives as a result.
But your analogy is good too.
Good offer from VW head office, I think the dealer is just trying to gouge your $1000, maybe speak to head office about the diagnostic fee the dealer is charging. Otherwise keep the car, what else could go wrong…
Plenty
If they want to pay you $1000, I say let them. lol
Looks like the Dealer (which is not same as VW, the manufacturer) is trying to make a quick buck.
As for getting a full refund: that is not going to happen after owning the car for 5 years!. VW has has already fixed and now offered to fix another major fault for free, even when its out of warranty. So as far as the manufacturer is concerned they are going by the book and doing everything and beyond the warranty obligations. ACCC is not going to side with you in this case.
I understand your frustration, but then again VWs (European cars in general) are known to be less reliable and more expensive to maintain. You should have known that when you bought it.. You are getting the full experience of owning a German car ;) embrace it ! :P
I didn't buy it. Folks did. I don't know why. A $30,000 Euro car is a $15,000 Jap car with nicer styling. I don't think this car looks all that flash either.
But hey… we can't go back in time.
They since replaced this with a Mitsubishi, so let's hope that runs a bit better for them.
That's just not true. The tech in a European car is years ahead of current Japanese tech, but the problem is that some of the tech (like the dry clutch DSG in the your VW), just isn't reliable. It is more fuel efficient, provides better performance and smoother changes than any of the crappy gearboxes Mitsubishi.
The dry clutch DSG is unfortunately a dud in terms of reliability, there is no two ways around it. They pretty much all fail. The 1.4TSI engine it's mated too isn't much better either. It's just a bad combination, but when they were new, people didn't know this. Other VW/Audi products are much more robust. Their old 6 speed DSG is bullet proof, as is the Audi high torque 7 speed wet clutch DSG. The 2.0 TSFI engines are great in terms of reliability. VW got a bad wrap for the 1.4 + DSG combo (especially the turbo/supercharged 1.4), but other products are fine.
A $30k Euro car is really entry level. They don't get much cheaper than that, so I wouldn't be expecting a Mercedes for the money.
Well it's easy to be "ahead" when you skip the years of proper engineering and reliability testing to, you know, actually make things that work.
@picket23: Most of these complaints relate to one gearbox and one engine (two versions of the same engine). They were poor designs, but generally most VW/Audi stuff is pretty good. Their fuel economy figures in the real world, for example, are the best in the ICU business. Their sports models are seriously fast, and I'm sure their upcoming electric range will be the first true Tesla competitors, after Jaguar and Mercedes stuffed it up with their shots.
So from what I'm reading online, I need to change the gear fluid every 40,000km on these DSG's. Is this correct?
My brother in law is a mechanic. Close to 80% of cars he gets to repair are VWs. Mostly golfs and he says main issues with all of them are transmissions.
Looks like this is pretty common feedback.
Re the 'Demo car' statement.
It's not unusual for dealers to notify vehicles to the manufacturers as a demo, even though they are 'new', they can get extra bonus money and also make sales targets for additional bonus money, plus to make sure they are #1 on the sales list. The car is still new. Real Demo cars are the registered ones that dealers use for various reasons. They also use New cars for test drives that are not registered as a demo.Experience 9 years in the industry, though 11 years ago now..
My contract says New VW. I don't know why he told me that we were the second owners and the car was a demo.
I only checked that after speaking to him.
I agree. Once registered and used that is no longer brand new. And I know demo cars are driven home by an employee. Free cars to use for 6 months then they can swap for another car if they want.
They would have registered the car under my parents name as they paid the new car stamp duty. It is a new car.
I had the exact problem with my Passat 118TSI, its well known issue with the 7 Speed Dry Clutch Gear Box. Had the Clutch pack replaced at 33,000 km at the 2 year mark. Had the whole mechatronic unit replaced just over 4 years at 60,000 km.
Clutch pack was fixed under standard warranty and extended warranty for the mechatronic unit. Even without the warranty, dealer said they'll usually be able to request a good will repair from VW.
After 3 years, I don't think they HAVE to repair the car for you. They will usually choose to under good will. How much of the repairs cost are paid will also depend on where you service the car, I think if you've serviced it regularly at the dealership, they might just waive it.
From memory, my mechatronic unit cost around $4K for parts alone. So I think you should consider yourself lucky you got a goodwill repair. Usual dealership service is around $700, so $1,000 is not that bad.
In my personal experience, VW and my dealership have been good in handling my crappy DSG, about 4 days off the road in 4.5 years of ownership and didn't have to fork out any $$$. But I've learnt my lesson and will avoid dry clutch DSG's from now. Can only blame myself for not doing enough research, the DSG issue was well known even before I purchased.
Just think how you saved 4K instead of having to fork out 1K :)
I don't think we are lucky, buying a car with an engine unsuitable for practical purposes.
I'm sure they were aware of these issues fairly early into the piece.
I think the dealer is doing the right thing and above what they are actually required to do. VW HQ are generally quite good at out of warranty repairs for major faults. People who say that a car shouldn't have any issues after 5 years don't appreciate the complexity of building a car (especially European ones).
I don't think going down the Major fault route is a good idea. Your parents bought in 2013 which was not long after all the DSG issues hit the press. A major fault is something that would stop someone from buying the car if they knew about it, your parents might have known about it and bought a VW anyway. So not so major. I know it isn't the same issue but just giving you an outsiders perspective.
If having to cough up $1k for repairs on a 5 year old car European car is such a huge thing you are willing to go through so many hoops like contacting consumer affairs… etc, just buy a Kia with 7 year warranty next time.
Yeah.. terrible decision and from what you said it is an uneducated issue.
But if they knew these cars had issues, they should accept that they are responsible for repairing those issues that were well known to the manufacturer.
The money isn't the issue for me, it's the principle and the law.
Thanks for then input though.
VV Jetta Has Had 2 Major Faults in 5 Years.
ONLY 2? For a VW thats only had 2 major faults in 5 years, you should think yourself lucky….. VW are mostly lemons plagued with issues that dealers can't fix.
And this is what gets me, quite a few people think this and just seem to feel it's fine for them to sell a rubbish car with an unsuitable engine. Then have the nerve to charge me $1000 to fix the problem with third design.
People think they are buying Premium car from europe and don't do research, so they keep selling them! The problem for me is VW charges Premium prices, but seems to fall down in the delivering the product section.
Its all marketing, the buy a jeep thing did the same thing. A guy I worked with got one after all the ads, the entire office said don't do it they're lemons…….. Its a lemon, endless issues with it.
VW I'm sure can make great cars, but when the gremlins appear, they have no idea on how to fix it. Then you have the DSG that eats clutch packs and is a $1000k+ fix each time, as the clutch pack wasn't really meant to be changed so often!
Third design? Your engine was fixed. This time it's the gearbox. They are not the same thing. The reason the engines failed was because they ran so lean for economy purposes. Your ecu would have been revised to the new tune that no longer melts pistons.
Half the problem with the dry clutch DSG is how people drive them. They think you can sit there holding it on a hill with the clutch slipping away like a traditional auto. This is not the case.
Half the problem with the dry clutch DSG is how people drive them.
People are driving them as they drive any other car. VW is the one that needs to 'adjust' not the user
They think you can sit there holding it on a hill with the clutch slipping away like a traditional auto. This is not the case.
And do VW tell you NOT to do this anywhere? Nope.
Again VW should be making gearboxes that work for its CUSTOMERS how they use it.
@JimmyF: @jimmyF it's not a VW issue it's a DCT issue. They all operate the same way and Brendanm is right, that's how you're supposed to drive with them.
It also tells you this in the manual. The clutch packs are dry and can't manage heat as well as wet clutch packs. When buying any significant purchase, it's up to people to do their research. There's plenty of research out there on how to operate DCT and if it doesn't match your driving style, then expect to be up for some expensive repairs. The OP problems are widespread and not something new.
I hope the OP can get their $1k back and have the car repaired properly, but I seriously doubt he'll have any luck pushing for a replacement/refund but it is good to see VW offering to fix it for free. On other forums people have had to fight them tooth and nail. The timeframe of OP car also tends to be at the age where the clutch packs start to fail, they're also a consumable and not a "lifelong" part.
it's not a VW issue it's a DCT issue
VW DCT are the WORST of them all, so its not just a general DCT issue as you claim. There are many DCT gearboxes that don't eat clutches.
The clutch packs are dry and can't manage heat as well as wet clutch packs
Funny VW makes a wet and a dry version of the DCT gearbox. The dry one is double crud, the wet one rarely has an issue like the dry. So its not a general DCT issue as you claim, more of a VW tried to save money by making a dry version and it didn't work as it can't get rid of the heat correctly in our climate.
There's plenty of research out there on how to operate DCT
Funny, the VW DCT page for Australia says "Drive the way you want." but clearly thats not the case?
VW FUD to push the issue back to the owners rare than saying there is a problem that the gearbox is made for europes cold weather and not our warm weather.
VW has for decades covered up issues, put off recalls and heck even cheated on EPA testing on a global scale. You really think they should be trusted as a source of the truth?
if it doesn't match your driving style
Shouldn't a car match the driving style of the users using it? This isn't some bespoke car, its a run of the mill every day car for the everyday people and just like apple, the users are holding it wrong, err driving it wrong.
@JimmyF: You obviously don't actually know much about this. VW has two different types of DSG, one is good, one is not. Your statement of "reeee all VW DSG sux!!!" is not accurate. The dry clutch 7 speed sucks.
It is also not the worst,the ford powrshift is. Even
VW should tell people how they are meant to drive these, but there is plenty of info around now. The 7 speed has dry clutches. Would you hold your manual vehicle on a hill with the clutch? No, so don't do it with a dry clutch dsg. If you must drive like a goose, get the 6 speed, with wet clutches it is much more forgiving of horrible driving techniques. Hell, my Mrs drives her passat and if there's ever a test of dsgs being slipped on hills, she's the one to do it. Strangely our 6 speed is still going like a champ.
@JimmyF: @jimmyF you're wrong on so many levels.
VW doesn't make the DSG it's a design from LuK Clutch Systems not VW, the other dual clutch transmissions are licensed from Borg-warner.
- The DQ200 is a dry clutch unit which is lighter to help meet emission standards. It's a crappy unit in general but made worse by people not driving DSG properly, it's got nothing to do with climate but how people operate DSG transmissions. All DSG eat clutches, the wet clutches handle heat better. Creeping in a dry clutch system (regardless of brand) is going to shorten the lifespan of any unit. The wet clutch systems are more expensive, heavier and take higher torque outputs which is why they're used in more expensive models. If they started using wet clutches in lower end models it adds to the price. Nobody forces you to buy a dry clutch system, it's your choice and decision to do so. Buy a car with a historically crappy transmission and then complain it is crap isn't the manufacturers fault. If you want them to improve the reliability of the product then vote with your wallet and buy something else.
All dry clutch systems regardless of brands are going to eat clutches if you don't drive them properly, whether it's VW, Kia/Hyundai, Ford, Fiat, BMW etc heat kills transmissions and that's not just limited to DSG but also normal torque converter style transmissions. The new dry clutches are able to creep better than the older model in the OP Jetta.
Their website says drive how you want as it's for the newer updated clutches, not the one in the OP Jetta.
I agree VW Group are dodgy and make shit products, I agree but consumers need to not just believe the marketing hype and do their own research which the OP clearly didn't do. The car doesn't have to match the driving style of people, a company releases a product which people choose to do. E.g. people not doing their research and learning how a dual clutch transmission works then complain when their "premium" European car eats clutches.
@StonedWizard: Lets not forget the young Australian lady killed by a crappy VW gearbox, it's not just the DSG's that have issues. They are dangerous junk and should have been removed from the road.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-18/mother-calls-on-ag-to…
I don't really understand what you mean here. I would like to know more. Is this something that I have to worry about once the car gets repaired?
My mother drove the car for 4.5 years, she used unleaded 98 and serviced it regularly. I find it hard to believe they couldn't have checked that this was slowly happening to the car during these service checks. especially if it is a wide spread known issue.
@hypie: @hypie - The 7 speed transmissions aren't that great but when you don't drive them properly they get get hot and can't dissipate heat as well as the other units. This isn't a fault of just VW other manufacturers are susceptible to heat issues with dry clutch systems.
I've heard the new 3rd generation (think that's the one but I could be wrong) unit manage heat a lot better but I don't trust dual clutch transmissions or VW so I'm sceptical.
Modern transmissions are sealed so you can't really check on the health of it without having to do a tear down. You can see if you have signs/symptoms of failing mechatronic units but I'm not too sure on that. If your piston fails again just use aftermarket ones which should fix that problems.
If you drive DSG like it's intended to be used you can get a longer lifespan out of them and you'll get warranty on the new unit they install. Keep driving the car and see how it fairs in terms of reliability. If you run into issues then look at getting another car (which sucks since it's an added expense) but hopefully it's something you just have to do as a 1 off. I hope they refund you the $1k and your car becomes reliable.
Here is a good source of information on VW in Australia.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/index.php@StonedWizard: Hey mate, I got the $1000 waived already.
Thank you for the info! I guess I will work on driving it properly for a couple weeks after they repair it. The service tech said that because I didn't contribute to the replacement of the gearbox, VW will not offer a warranty on the new gearbox. Otherwise they will give you a 2 year warranty normally.
I have complained to VW about this.
VW has already accepted fault by agreeing to repair the car.
Just to point out - this isn't how that works. They can not accept fault, but still agree to fix it as good PR.
Do you think they can pull the offer after this?
Of course. They have no obligation to offer you a free repair. But they won't - it'd be a terrible PR look and it's probably already been approved so it benefits noone if they do.
this is a cheap life lesson in my opinion
1st lesson, dont by a vw outside of factory warranty, ever.
2nd lesson, refer to lesson 1for what its worth i think you are luckier than most when it comes to dealing with vw out of warranty
go and buy a lotto ticket and live your life.1st lesson, dont by a vw outside of factory warranty, ever.
Even in warranty I question if its worth it. Sure its 'free' fixes, but who wants to deal with getting the car fixed all the time, PIA. I'm happy to drive something boring that just works day after day than a broken VW.
Any european car, at 5 years old, 50,000kms …. I expect problems, sad but true.
It is more sad that this is the only reason why I would not ever buy one.
How about asking them to itemize the $1000 and work out with them what is fair.
If you have the time and resources, a court battle might be an option. This is especially true, given the recent range rover refund: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8wyLOwC90E (this guy is awesome - you could probably drop him a line with details of your problem, you've nothing to lose).
News article: https://www.bay939.com.au/news/local-news/98809-couple-puts-…
I mentioned this above, but you really should read the articles you reference. That case and OP's case are two completely different situations.
I have read the article I referenced, but guilty as charged in that I only read the TL;DR version of the OP's story which says:
TLDR: Car is 5 years old, 2 major faults (accepted terminology by VW and Dealer). New incident with gearbox last week. Repairs labour and parts covered by VW as manufacturing fault. Dealer trying to charge $1000 for diagnostics. I want a major remedy under ACL.
That sounds eerily similar to the range rover case to me (I'm not talking about the $1000 diagnostics charge, but about how unreliable and unfit for purpose the car itself is).
Ok, they're not completely different. But:
OP's car: 2 issues over 5 years.
Article: about 10? issues over 3 years.
The car in the article was literally undrivable for most of the time the buyers had owned it. Whereas OP's car was basically fine for 99% of the time his parents have owned it.
Hey mate,
Just made an account just to comment on this.
VW knows they screwed up with the 118 TSI engine. Although classed as one of the most innovative designs, it was also one of their worst engines. Talk to your local VW dealer about applying for good will. Most, if not, all customers have been successful going down that route. And VW will pay for everything, except for car rental during the repair routine.
I, unfortunately, bought a 118 TSI golf last year. 2011 model. After 2-3 visits to the dealer with problems, the service assistant, unofficially, told me the high likelihood of getting it fixed under good will. And, in the unlikely scenario they would not, there was a very good trade in deal for the car (Makes sense, to try and keep customer loyalty, to trade a VW for a VW…)
Anyways, got the car fixed under good will, then traded it for a korean car. Now I'm a happy camper.
Good luck!
Where are you based, by the way?
I might also just be luck with the guys in Brisbane being very fair dinkum.They offered my parents $8000 before I purchased the car off them to trade it in. I am VERY glad they didn't get another VW and did not deal with the dealership, who I will name once this has been resolved. People need to know the dodgy dealers.
I have got the repair authorised for a free repair now (check the update). However I am still convinced we legally are entitled to a replacement or refund.
Cheers.
Is this a dry clutch? VW had major gearbox failure on their dry clutch due to originally they used semi-synthetic oil that lead to a failure on the mechatronics. Later on, they changed to fully synthetic oil. You need to find out whether VW had correctly put a fully synthetic oil for the gearbox during past services because this was a major recall back then.
Some people don't know this but there are some things that you shouldn't do when driving dual clutch gearbox. For example, no creeping on the red light (instead of press and depress brake to move, you should press). If you do a lot of creeping, it will cause a premature wear on the clutch plate.
Thankyou! I am not a car person, so this is definitely news to me. I shall investigate this. I Have asked the dealer to give me a full mechanic workup, to assume me that they will not have any other parts fail and deny responsibility.
If you're still having trouble knowing what all your possible moves are maybe contact this guy: https://autoexpert.com.au/about
He frequently does videos about lemon cars and consumers rights. Although he won't be able to snap his fingers and fix it for you he can at least point you in the right directions on what paths to pursue.
For example, here's his video on what to do if you have a lemon car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGYgIKg27cs
This link on the site you mention is worth a read:
https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/how-to-fight-a-carmaker-and-…Thank you both! I will read into this and send the guy a message for his perspective.
I was about to call out the most integral piece of information that was missing from the post, until I found it buried in amongst the bottom of the post. Car is 5 years old, you had 3 years warranty.
If the issues relating to the latest failure started to occur within the first 3 years and you had evidence that you notified the dealer of the issue within 3 years you may have had a leg to stand on.
Where in the world could you report an issue with an item/service years out of it's warranty period and reasonably expect repairs or replacements to be provided for free under warranty?
Under ACL. Eg a TV might only have a 1 year warranty, but you'd expect it to last longer than 1 year.
My dad recently had his dishwasher fixed for free out of warranty because you'd expect a dishwasher to last longer than a few years. Took him many phone calls and threats of ACCC and references to ACL though.
Except under the ACCC's own guidance, their examples only refer to time periods of between 18 months and 3 years. Over 5 years isn't even something the ACCC thinks is covered by the ACL.
You can't just say "ACL" and come up with a random number and say that it's valid.
Yeah, it's case by case I suppose.
A lot of it you would think is common sense rulings. i.e. you had a catastrophic engine failure and it was replaced under warranty and then the engine fails again, with both engines lasting under 3 years each.
I just had my TV - Samsung UA65JS9000 FULLY REFUNDED 2 years out of warranty for a light bleed issue that required a replacement panel.
My phone - Samsung Galaxy S8 - with a cracked screen was FULLY REFUNDED over 2 years after purchasing it because the phone stopped powering on after 2 years. They charged me $220 to repair the screen before the assessed the phone. The phone had a major defect relating to the motherboard which cause it to fail. They have since processed a $220 refund for the repair of the screen and I am waiting for my $$$ that I paid for the Samsung Galaxy S8 2 years ago.
Yep. Asian services are the best.
I don't understand why people are still buying VWs…. I've never heard anything good out of them.
Golf GTi's and R's were basically THE prototypical hot-hatch. But yeah - that's probably the only model in their range I've seriously considered buying.
But even they have issues right? like gear box issues? They are probably better to be leased than owned
Yes, but Golfs were cheap enough that you really wouldn't bother. They had decent resale values too - so you'd buy, drive for <5 years, and then resell.
I think there needs to be some perspective too. European cars are unreliable, but even at say, 2x - 5x the failure rate of Japanese models, the overall failure rate still isn't anything ridiculous. If you bought one, yes it's a risk, but more often than not it's still going to run just fine without issues.
Don't ask me… never again.
Sounds like a transmission fault like what Ford Focuses and Fiestas (2012-2016) are having.
I just spoke to a colleague today who said they missed out on this class action because Ford had attempted to repair the car. Which sounds like BS because the issue occurred again.
Personally I would push for the $1,000 to be waived on the repair by the dealer or VW. Even so $1,000 to fix a transmission with a serious fault on a 5 year old vehicle is still reasonable. I would not jeopardise that offer by chasing a brand new vehicle, which frankly is unreasonable. At the end of the day VW are being good with the goodwill repair.
Get it repaired and then sell.
I have just got the $1000 waived today. However I will still be taking action within reason. Time/stress is probably not worth it if ACCC is not interested.
They have already provided an appropriate remedy. VW know their gearboxes are duds so are giving you a free one out of goodwill, out of warranty. The dealership is probably trying to make something out of this with the $1000 charge, although you already agreed to the diagnostic charge before handing them the car. Effectively this charge is fixed, in the past. The $1000 issue is seperate from the warranty/goodwill issue. They (the manfacturer) has made good on the goodwill/warranty, the $1000 diagnostic fee that you were talked into, is between you and the dealer. Your only recourse now is to write to VW head office and try to get them to pay the $1000 dealership charge. FYI Apple do in fact charge you to 'look' at a phone…
Negative, the agreement was that we would pay for the assessment only if the car was not facing a manufacturing fault. This fee has now been waived. I do not agree with most of what you have said.
Yes Apple potentially will charge that fee, however they will refund that fee if it is considered a manufacturing fault.
It's free to namedrop the ACL but do you know how it works in practice?
Actually filing an application in the Federal Circuit Court is $2,992 + daily hearing fee of $2,241 + your lawyer's fees
Most businesses know they can treat you as an annoyance up until the point your lawyer serves them a statement of claim.
I agree costs is a very important and relevant issue to consider.
However, for the community's sake, want to clarify for OP and all those reading that ACL is a consumer protection regime that was designed to be able to be pursued in a cost effective manner.
Unsure where OP is located but for example, in VIC, you can lodge an ACL claim (between $15,001 - $100,000) in VCAT for costs of $475.40 (includes hearing fees for Day 1). These matters are also usually self-represented. Most States have similar small-claims courts. There is no need to go to the Federal Circuit Court for such matters.
Yes I don't think Walruspolishing is correct. I also believe that the ACCC can take the issue up if they think it is systematic breaches. It is always worth reporting this stuff to the ACCC. They gather evidence. Finally they can also represent you and if you do win in small claims court, you will get all court costs covered.
I would pay the $1000, and once fixed sell the car and buy something that wont cause you grief.
Unfortunately, it is out of warranty. Diagnosing the problem takes time which is why they probably said its at $1000. Lucky they're offering anything at all.
If you arent happy with dealerships dealing in the situation, contact head office and let them know you are being charged $1000 for a diagnosis. Might set off some alarm bells there if this is uncharacteristic of something VW would normally do.
I do know Mitsubishi said the same thing about my Evolution X at one point that was out of warranty and then ended up charging nothing for repair or diagnosis.
I plan to do this, I believe this isn't normal practice. I have also had the $1000 waived. They have told me this is the final offer. However I will pursue it further.
Sell it buy a Subaru
Mate, cop the $1000 and sell it, European car life is not for you if you don't enjoy faults and shelling out mega bucks for getting things fixed.
This is why people get screwed. They just roll over. Big dealerships and those in technical fields like cars/electronics can get away with all sorts of trash.
You don't want to get screwed? Learn how to work on your car and do some research before picking up anything.
I was not involved in the initial purchase. But I accept your point. However I never would have bought this model if I was involved. I will look into working on my car and maintaining it.
Makes thread.
Disagrees with anyone that doesn’t hold the same opinion.
What’s the point?
Because I received feedback from successful claimants who offered advice. I did not disagree, I made a counter-argument with most.
OP states that the car has done 50,000km in 5 years.
No car is flawless especially after 5 years and 50,000km
There is no proof that any of the issues were not caused by the owner/driver due to the way it was driven or garaged or serviced or mainatained or lack thereof.The car is now 2 years out of warranty.
OP chose to buy the car. It was not forced uopn him.
Now its OPs problem. Not ours. Not VW's.Furthermore OP chose to buy the car with the knowledge of its troublesome history.
Who buys a car knowing it is nothing but trouble then complains to everyone?
Clearly didn't read the thread properly. The fact I bought the car off my parents is irrelevant. I am just representing them as the title has never been changed. What would be the point. I have a good relationship with my parents and they would refund me the money if I requested. I have no intention of doing this.
People get so stuck on this warranty word.
Lol my base model lancer has done 140000km in 10 years with nothing more than oil changes. If you think 50000km is time to accept car troubles, I have some quality European vehicles I'd like to sell you.
agreed mate! 50,000km is ridiculous. Also the jerkiness was observable far earlier than that. Some people claim it is the design of the gearbox. But I don't remember the car doing this when we purchased it. It gradually deteriorated.
My family's corolla, camry, Lexus and Accord say differently. lol
Notice a pattern?
Based on my family's experience in the recent past, I would say accept the repair as it is a good deal and immediately sell the car and run from VW!
There is always going to be a next time or another thing with them, the head office gimmick is so they can get you to stay until the really major repairs come along.
You wouldn't believe our story if I told you given the amount of money spent, but let me put it this way, the lack of a VW badge in our garage has done more for my finances and peace of mind than anything else in the past year.
I will never buy a VW again or recommend anyone purchase one. I will also never buy from that dealership, which I will name following my resolution. They need to be named and shamed.
Every European manufacturer is like this, I am honestly surprised they fixed the original issues out of warranty in goodwill.
What's the problem with the dealership? You're getting a free repair (as required by law).
You didn't read the thread did you?
They tried to charge $1000 for diagnostics of a pretty clear fault that is widespread. I think someone in this thread suggested its an issue plagued by about 50% of these models at around the same age.
I don't know if this is accurate. However I don't doubt it.
OP, I get your point that you have been charged excessive amount to diagnose a, possibly easy for them to predict, fault as it was probably a known issue for that model.
Talk to a local legal aid/community legal centre. They will give you advice how to make a complaint with the tribunal, which costs about $70 I think. The tribunal can arrange a mediation between you and Dealership. The tribunal will cost you nothing if you lose - however ask a legal person regarding the possible legal fees you may owe to the Dealership legal representative if you lose.
Or try to negotiate the $1000 down with the Dealer to something more reasonable and avoid further hustle. Offer to pay the labour only maybe? A few hundred $$?Thank you for the advice mate!
VW said they would cover the parts and labour. Why is the dealer trying to charge me for a pretty clear issue? The car was not switching through gears. I know nothing about cars, but I knew this was a gearbox issue. I'm sure they did too.
Anyway, they negotiated it down to $300 yesterday which I didn't mention because I knew people would accept it. I have had this reduced to $0 since. However I still plan to take action against the dealership on principal. I would only be able to sell that car for $6000 ($8000 trade in for another VW). The money isn't that important to me, the fact they are systematically covering this up is.
It looks like you don't like injustice and dishonesty. Go get the grubs!
That's the plan!
' .. on principle' of what?
When you sell a product, it should be suitable for purpose. If it clearly has a major fault which appears to be common knowledge now, they should try to rectify the issue without having the cx judged on a case by case basic. They clearly knew it was a faulty gearbox based on the symptoms exhibited by the car. They are quite aware that this particular model has gearbox issues. They also know that VW would approve this repair.
You don't always have to perform surgery to diagnose an issue. You definitely should not be charging $1000 to customers and then telling them if they contribute $1000 to the repairs, they will get a 2 year warranty on the replacement gearbox.
How many customers have been screwed by them in the past, how many have not bothered to reject their charges and just accepted the money making scheme. This is clearly a widespread issue and it clearly has been abused by both the dealer and VW.
Honest to god VW have a million gearbox issues and you bought one anyway and are complaining when it happened?
It's not a rarity, if you buy an automatic VW expect issues. Literally ANY googling would tell you this. There are class actions about it. VW's double clutch is a total failure. In my opinion it's one of the worst cars you could possibly buy, the rest of the car is irrelevant when a huge part is prone to failure so early in its life.
Pay the $1,000 and sell the piece of rubbish before it breaks again.
Note: the dealer isn't VW. It's taking their staffs time to screw around with all this rubbish. It's not them building rubbish products. A lot of dealers sell multiple brands. Ford have a similar rubbish dual clutch transmission and it must be a pain for dealers having all these angry customers. They would much prefer the cars were perfect and they didn't have to deal with these types of issues.
Yes but my contract is with the dealership and their contract is with VW. They can do whatever they want to claim a refund for the time spent diagnosing the issue. However they sold me the car and therefore the contract is between the consumer and the dealership. I get they have jobs and need to get paid. I do too. However I don't think this is acceptable.
By the way, I worked in retail for 11 years… I know what customers rights are. I also understand their perspective. However I am a consumer and I have rights to a product that is suitable for purpose, that was produced in a manner that would suit my purpose and did not have underlying issues that were systematically covered up from customers.
It's outside of warranty and you can't prove any of that, which is the point of the class action. The fact they'll offer anything is good enough, sell it before it breaks again. After all they're simply replacing a dud part with another dud so it's a ticking time bomb, an expensive one at that.
Ford: https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/07/accc-sues-ford-over-its-d…
"of the approximately 70,000 cars sold, about half have had a gearbox repair of some sort"It's unbelievable how bad these dual clutch transmissions are. Also consider people have had these die on highways, middle of intersections - potential for injury or death there.
Manufacturing Warranty periods offered do not matter when discussing consumer guarantees under ACL. Also yes, I can definitely see people dying as a result of these catastrophic failures. I can only imagine doing a turn across a country highway and have the accelerator fail while crossing oncoming traffic.
I took every precaution I could, waiting for long extended empty periods so I could cross - on the way home to the VW dealership.
Ah millennials…. My first car I got myself which was I think around $500 loll…Good times… If it started n went without blowing up it was a good day… Still good to know all the issues vw has been having…I'll steer clear n stick to jap crap…
Did you buy the car brand new for $500?
ACCC won't do F%ck all, I had a 2015 EVO X with grinding gearbox ended up trading it at a loss, You would have to go through VCAT to get compensation
Did you make any complaints?
Complained to ACCC and also the dealership and also regional service manager.
My story was it was notchy in 3rd gear (dealership said it was a problem) swapped out the gearbox now 2nd and 3rd gear grind so they changed the shifter assembly and that didnt do anything after the work they said its normal for these cars to grind yet they made the matter worse. Complained to ACCC which was a waste of time and just traded it.
Why was it a waste of time?
@hypie: Because they cant enforce anything all they can do is ask them nicely, they basically said I need to take legal action If I want to do anything
VW Jetta Has Had 2 Major Faults in 5 Years. What Are My Rights?
i guess as an australian you have the right to make up whatever you want and pester poor mechanics as much as you want without the fear of being assaulted.
I think its perfectly reasonable to buy a car second hand for $5,000, then go back and ask for a $30,000 refund. I mean if you were really serious, you wouldnt bother speaking to anyone and just get the lawyers straight in. No one is going to get scared of your bullying and hand over $30,000 without a serious fight. These are actually hard working people who have a very good concept of what $30,000 actually is.
I also think its justifiable to get angry with VW who offered to do about $4000 worth of work for free when they have zero obligation to do so. I would definitely respond by harassing these people.
I love it when people can't read properly. Are you a mechanic? Another great example of someone with zero understanding of the law, clearly should not offer advice on topics they lack knowledge.
You know, the mechanic gets paid no matter what right? I didn't take the baby food off his child's spoon.
Also some of us know how to do cost benefit analysis before making significant decisions. Therefore they try to get as much useful precedence before taking action.
Thanks for your inflamatory input.
Yes they don't have a legal obligation now, but the key word is they MAY. The fact that they don't have a legal obligation right now because what you think is a binding warranty period has finished, does not detract from my consumer rights.
I would love to hear a lawyer in this fields opinion. But i guess that costs a lot of money and time. So I'll just send my emails and try to get advocates.
I had a audi q5, shittest gearbox I ever driven. Jerk forward and hesistant before accelaration.
Sold it no regrets. Don't be fool by the premium, you only paying for the badge.Shoulda bought an SQ5
Just never ever buy a European car. Not once, not now, not ever.
Noted, my wife has a Mercedes C200 W205 (2014 or 15) which has been doing pretty well. No major faults so far.
Im going against the grain and say take it to court. Given most car makers average warranty is between 3-7 years, you can argue a case that a similar prices car would last this long and given the issues with this specific car (a one off defected car) you are not feeling safe, or feel others would if u sell it, and thus demand a replacement or refund….worth a shot and could set a precedent!
Most people disagreeing either don't fully understand the rights or as it never happened before are nieve of an outcome, if someone had fought and lost before then I can understand their case but with no grounding its not rasonable for their viewpoint.
Thanks mate, agree with everything you said. It's all about precedent. I guess I don't know about historic cases. This is why I wanted to post here. To see if anyone has been successful or failed.
The one major issue with the ACL IMO is the vague nature of the wording, which is open to interpretation, such as major, or minor failure. I can’t speak for a magistrate obviously, however I feel that if a product of any kind had a recurring failure then it would fall under a major failure, but a business is likely to disagree as they don’t want to pay you out. This is the problem with how the law of ACL operates, many businesses are aware of the vagarities of ACL, and similarly understand that enforcing ACL requires a court, rather than say an arbiter of some kind. This is a glaring problem IMO because it means that enforcing basic common sense rights require often extraordinary degrees of work on the part of the consumer, but that’s another story I suppose.
I’d imagine that it’s pretty clear that you have a dud car, however the issue that you must confront here is how much is your time worth to you? Are you prepared to take it to small claims or higher, to try and get a remedy, with the possibility that you won’t get anything out of it? Nobody can speculate to the likely outcome of the court with assurity, so ultimately it’s a case of suck it and see, which requires investment on your part without the possibility of a return.
If I were in your position, as much as I can sympathise with your situation, and the situation clearly isn’t fair, I would get the car fixed, then I would sell it without incurring more KM’s wherever possible. Now, that isn’t fair to you, however, my understanding is that it took a class action law suit to compel VW to ultimately remedy consumers in the US, which likely would have involved a large firm without a lot of resources.
So, I suppose, as shitty as the situation is for you, I’d sell it and move on as I imagine that is likely to be the best option that will net you a return without further stress.
I agree with most of what you said. I think it isn't worth my time. I probably will just accept the refund. However I think sending an email didn't take much from me. At least they might get in trouble for dubious practice regarding the diagnostic phase.
The wording is vague, however the service tech clarified to me over the phone that both the first piston incident and now the second gearbox issue are considered MAJOR faults by the company and industry.
The wording relates to whether or not you would have bought the car given this fault and whether the car performs as you expected. I probably haven't used the right terminology, but you can read through the ACL document to get exact details.
Lol wait a full refund? Man that rarely happens when the car is one year old let alone 5… goodluck mate.
Took me weeks to get just a tv refunded.
Get it fixed and trade/sell that shit in asap.
Took me a couple weeks too, but it got done (my TV). Just because it is hard, does not mean it is impossible and unreasonable.
So $1000 has been waived, and they are fixing the car for free. Sounds like a win win to me. No idea what other compensation you're expecting. A refund for the car will never happen.
Always aim high, means you have a fallback. I still think it is reasonable to expect a full refund for a car that has been riddled with problems. Who knows what else they have hidden.
I asked for a full mechanic workup as part of the agreement.
I didn't read all the comments but for future reference for all VW owners, even your car has 3-year warranty your DSG has 5-year warranty. This is widely accepted by VW Australia and VW dealers. If anybody tries to charge you for DSG errors within 5 years, be aware of your rights.
Refer to numerous VW forums on the net for others' experiences.
Thank you, I will read into more forums. I don't think this was the best place to voice my distaste. But I have got some strong advice from others who have successfully challenged these companies and their coverups.
touch wood. My 20 yo Civic is still cruising fine.
Honda's have one of the best major fault records according to Choice.
particulars please.
https://www.choice.com.au/transport/cars/general/articles/le…
Have a read.
Mazda had 44% problems reported within 5 years, Honda was second with 49% of buyers. VW surprisingly wasn't the worst, but still in the bottom half.
The survey criteria included new car owners who had bought their new car in the last five years, i.e. from January 2011 to January 2016. This period was chosen in order to find survey participants with experiences within and after the usual periods of warranties and extended warranties, and during a time period covered by the commencement of the Australian Consumer Law.
Das is vw …another day another Vw lemon, welcome too my world of broken DSG on a git golf 08 model ..keep pushing and go too head office straight away don’t go too local stealers if you can’t get any joy
Yeah, I have proceeded to make various complaints. thanks for the support and tips!
I hope you learnt a lesson; dont buy VW
Never.
Oh what a feeling, Toyota.
We have a Toyota Hilux at one of the businesses at 200,000km, not one issue or hiccup.
We have BMW's, Mercs with so many issues that we simply just live with them as we can't be bothered with them unless they are major, sending staff for full days on service trips just gets ridiculous.
e.g. 1.5 year old merc radiator pump blew up, BMW turbo pipe erupted, bad aircon smell the list just goes on.
Toyota, no esc, risk of exploding air bags - any day my friend.
Remember, if the turn signal stick is on the left, it's better to be left at the dealer.
Gotta be a reason why the camry's are so popular! i'm going to try one of the ex-lease models my company sells back.
Camry is a cheap workhorse with very very uncomfortable seats across it’s entry models. Like almost every other ozzie made car - not great build quality. Corolla is great, doesn’t break and cheapest to own.
Left stick, great quote. I own Lexus is200. No big issues for 20years. Just need to service it on time.
OP - I have heard of refunds/replacements in case of 'lemons' but these are mainly when purchased with-in the first year or two, with significant issues where the car spends more time in the work-shop than on the road. That said, you've mentioned that the car has done about 50,000kms which is a decent amount in 5 years time. I think a refund would be hard to argue for given that the car was able to travel a reasonable amount of distance. Unfortunately ACL does not have any lemon laws.
You can always draw on the fact your issues coincides with the common issues of this particular model - but what this normally achieves (if the ACCC gets enough complaints and permits this) is a nation-wide recall, which would typically only involve a repair of said issue.
I think you should definitely fight the diagnostics charge just for the sake of it, but IMO a refund/replacement is highly unlikely given that you've received a decent amount of use out of the car.https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/court-orders-ford-to-p…
I understand that this is a shorter period of time. I will try to find examples where this was covered up to 2 years out of warranty. Please take a read.
Also I don't think it's reasonable for a car to break down twice within 5 years and doing 50,000km. These faults require major rebuilds. I do get your point.
Yes. If you cry hard enough, you will get your way.
Car is out of warranty and you want it to be someone else's problem.
And they wonder why gen Y's get a bad rap.Next time don't buy a car with a warranty periods of X amount of years. Look for one with one that advertises it with "A reasonable amount of time" instead.
I'm not aware of any cars that come with a "A reasonable amount of time" warranty.
Every car sold brand new in Australia after 2011 friend. This makes them covered by the Competition and Consumer Act 2010.
I was replying to Herbse so you should have been able to figure this one out from context: I was talking about being advertised that way.
Op has his answer, comments closed.
the car is 2 years out of warranty, VW is paying for the repair and parts, I would accept this before they change their mind, if you had to cover the cost of this repair yourself you are looking at around $3,000 to $5000 + more through VW.