Is Huawei really spying?

Gerry H on 22/05/2019 - 16:36
Last edited 22/05/2019 - 16:43

ive read a lot into non mainstream scientific topics (i.e. non materialist topics), and i know from that experience its near impossible to discern who's telling the truth, the evidence from both sides are very sketchy and very open to skeptical arguments. after a little reading i feel a similar situation with huawei's spying accusations. can an expert tell me if this is true or just trump afraid of apple losing market share? every youtube comment says trump is trying to defend apple and by extension america's dominance.

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Comments

  • poboy on 22/05/2019 - 16:47
    +20

    Yes. All technology is spying basically. I'm being sincere.

    China, US, Russia etc - they are all spying.

    • dcep on 22/05/2019 - 16:52
      +1

      what comes out of russia ?

      • crashloaded on 22/05/2019 - 16:56
        +25

        Beluga whales with go pros on their heads.

      • Forfiet on 22/05/2019 - 16:57

        yotaphone? :p

      • poboy on 22/05/2019 - 17:35
        +8

        US Presidents

    • trustnoone on 22/05/2019 - 17:41
      +5

      etc

      Australian Government
      https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-46463029

      • mskeggs on 22/05/2019 - 20:31
        +3

        In the early 2000's I got into an Internet argument about whether widespread Internet interception was possible.
        I worked at a major ISP and was confident that the network and CPU infrastructure to make it possible would be the size of a room, and so impossible to hide.
        I looked pretty dumb in 2006:
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A

        • biggweilo on 23/05/2019 - 11:28
          +1

          You could do it with half a subrack now (at ISP level) and send the data to a remote storage facility.

          I strongly suggest the OP or anyone else interested read up on Snowden (or watch the movie at least!) to see what we are capable.

          China have legislated backdoors required in their telco networks. The western world seem to be better at application layer hacks but that may just be perception as companies like NSO group and their apps like Pegasus are fast catching up and selling to the highest bidder.

  • try2bhelpful on 22/05/2019 - 17:01
    +8

    It isn't just countries it is corporations as well. Getting an advantage, and influencing the populace, is big business nowdays. As the "internet of things" takes off the security holes for hacking into people's houses will probably be bigger. I would be very wary about connecting anything with a camera, or a microphone, to the internet. "Hey <whatever>" is very useful but it does provide a portal into your house.

    • thrillhouse on 23/05/2019 - 08:35
      +2

      I think about this often, as I get more invested in smart home technology. I’m more than confident that I’m being tracked in this regard, and as creepy as it is, it just doesn’t phase or deter me from removing the technology.

      For me, the benefit and convenience is at the point of outweighing the possible negatives. At the end of the day, if someone is listening and watching me, it’s their loss. I don’t do anything particularly exciting at home outside of cook and watch TV. Yes, it’s an invasion of privacy but I’m not doing anything illegal. If someone truely hacked in, I can’t imagine they’d stay tuned in for long (for fear of seeing my naked ass walking around the house).

      Some people are far more conscious of this privacy breach, and that’s totally fine. But for me, the worst that seems to come from it are targeted ads (after I’ve mentioned something to my wife); no biggy.

      Would love to hear others thoughts on this, because maybe I’m being ignorant to the actual dangers this presents.

      • try2bhelpful on 23/05/2019 - 12:02

        I also have the "if you see me naked it is your problem" philosophy but if they are monitoring when you aren't home to break in, or worse monitoring when you are home alone and vulnerable, then it does become an issue; particularly if they could hack into your security cameras or control systems. Maybe it is a "lady" thing, after all society brings us up that if we are attacked then we should've been more careful. However, a big suggestion is if you break up with somebody, or get rid of room mates, then make sure all your passwords have been changed.

  • Diji1 on 22/05/2019 - 17:06
    +10

    the evidence from both sides

    What evidence? There is no evidence, just intelligence agencies inventing conspiracy theories and fools reading the conspiracy theories in the joke that is the mainstream media.

    The intelligence agencies are doing exactly what they're telling idiots Huawei is doing while the idiots listen to the conspiracy theories.

    • afoveht on 22/05/2019 - 23:47
      +1

      What evidence? There is no evidence

      There is evidence that "our" side is doing it.

    • jm48 on 23/05/2019 - 12:33
      +1

      Agreed, I think it is fanciful that any company would design their hardware to enable spying.
      If real evidence was discovered, they would be out of business.

      • trapper on 27/05/2019 - 12:42

        It's not fanciful at all, these companies have to follow the law, and governments on all sides require all kinds of access to your 'private' data.

  • DarthAntz on 22/05/2019 - 17:08
    +3

    Apple needs more market share. Competition is fierce.

    • try2bhelpful on 23/05/2019 - 06:41

      Trump hates Apple, I doubt he would lift a finger to help them. However, I don’t doubt he would do anything in relation to his little trade war with China.

  • altomic on 22/05/2019 - 17:09
    +5

    "google home/siri! Is hauwei spying on its consumers?"

  • askme69 on 22/05/2019 - 17:23
    +7

    NO, but being a CHINESE company, they are required to provide access/info to the CHINESE COMMUNISTS when requested.

    It's LAW.

    • eug on 22/05/2019 - 18:04
      +3

      So they're like the USA's National Security Letters where the government can force companies, without approval from a judge, to provide certain types of information about anybody, and also forbid them from disclosing to anyone that the information was requested?

      Or is it more like the USA's PRISM mass-surveillance program?

      Looks like the Americans have already beat the Chinese when it comes to mass spying, the difference being that one has evidence and the other doesn't. :)

      • mbck on 22/05/2019 - 18:31
        +5

        A government that put its internet through censorship…

        Also Vodafone Italy has shown a backdoor was found in its huawei network, which was supposedly fixed, but really wasn't (it was rediscovered).

        Also, the Chinese government would use the information to control minute details to ensure their grip on power is not destabilized. Plenty on the net of their own citizen being 'reeducated', or put through their anti-corruption legal attacks for seemingly minor issues.

        Not to mention their implementation of the Social Credit Score…

        So yeah western government has their flaws, but I won't disappear

        • eug on 22/05/2019 - 22:17

          A government that put its internet through censorship…

          Is this about Huawei or China? If you don't want to support the Chinese government in any way (which is understandable), you're going to have to avoid anything that's made in China as the government collects a lot of tax from anything that's made there. That includes iPhones, laptops, furniture, all your tech gadgets, etc. No point being so against China yet still personally contributing to their government.

          Also Vodafone Italy has shown a backdoor was found in its huawei network, which was supposedly fixed, but really wasn't (it was rediscovered).

          It's unfortunate that the tech-ignorant mass media spins everything to produce clickbaity sensationalist headlines, and more unfortunate that lots of people fall for it. This is what Vodafone Italy said about the matter:

          In a statement, Vodafone said: "The issues in Italy identified in the Bloomberg story were all resolved and date back to 2011 and 2012.

          "The 'backdoor' that Bloomberg refers to is Telnet, which is a protocol that is commonly used by many vendors in the industry for performing diagnostic functions. It would not have been accessible from the internet.

          "Bloomberg is incorrect in saying that this 'could have given Huawei unauthorised access to the carrier's fixed-line network in Italy'.

          "In addition, we have no evidence of any unauthorised access. This was nothing more than a failure to remove a diagnostic function after development.

          "The issues were identified by independent security testing, initiated by Vodafone as part of our routine security measures, and fixed at the time by Huawei."

          Also, the Chinese government would use the information to control minute details to ensure their grip on power is not destabilized.

          So you're really just against China, and not Huawei. That's understandable as they definitely don't have a good reputation, but do keep in mind you're personally contributing to their government by purchasing anything that's made in China.

          • mbck on 22/05/2019 - 22:55
            +2

            @eug: Huawei is china/ccp. Any big corporation is china/ccp. Listed companies must have a senior member of the cup in their board. So to not talk about china/ccp is impossible.

            And no it's not just me personally contributing. You are too. Everyone is. But that's not the point. The point is people saying the western government are doing it, so what. There's a difference.

            Re: Vodafone Italy, well according to their sources that's incorrect.

            "The sources speaking to Bloomberg contest this. They claim that the vulnerabilities persisted after 2012 and that the same flaws could be found in Vodafone-deployed Huawei equipment in the UK, Germany, Spain, and Portugal. In spite of this, Vodafone continued to buy equipment from the Chinese firm because it was so cost competitive.

            The sources also claim that the story was not so simple as "Vodafone reports bug, Huawei fixes bug." Vodafone Italy found that Huawei's routers had unsecured telnet access, and the company told Huawei to remove it. Huawei told Vodafone that it had done so, but further examination of the routers found that telnet could be re-enabled. Vodafone told Huawei that Vodafone wanted it removed entirely, only to be told by Huawei that the company needed to keep it for testing and configuration."

            It's unfortunate that some people fall for misinformation from mass media. Keep in mind your buying made in China and spreading misinformation means you are personally contributing to their government.

            • eug on 22/05/2019 - 23:30
              +4

              @mbck:

              The point is people saying the western government are doing it, so what. There's a difference.

              OK, just to be clear, what are you actually saying?

              You don't support Huawei because the Chinese government, who famously control their citizens in a draconian fashion, may spy on Westerners. That's understandable.

              But you have no issue with Western governments who have been caught spying on the public and even on their own allies?

              And at the same time you happily support the Chinese government by personally contributing to their economy?

              Re: Vodafone Italy, well according to their sources that's incorrect.
              "The sources speaking to Bloomberg contest this.

              Heh, Bloomberg. After their spy chips fiasco I have lost all respect for their tech reporting. It looks like they just believe anything any "source" tells them, happily releasing sensationalist clickbait headlines. I'm surprised people still have faith in Bloomberg's tech reporting.

    • [Deactivated] on 22/05/2019 - 18:26

      At least their honest about it.

      • eug on 22/05/2019 - 22:18
        +4

        At least their honest about it.

        Hmm? So if Edward Snowden didn't reveal all their secrets, they would have told us all about it themselves?

        • afoveht on 22/05/2019 - 23:44
          +3

          No….

          China BAD
          'Merica GOOD
          Because Merica says Merica good. And we believe Merica. Because Mericans look a bit like us. OK?

    • RecklessMonkeys on 23/05/2019 - 12:12
      +1

      It's the law here too.

  • [Deactivated] on 22/05/2019 - 17:39
    +2

    govt owned company making communications tech is pretty dangerous

    • orangetrain on 22/05/2019 - 17:48
      +2

      Any company in a privacy invading country is dangerous. Fixed that for you. This will include Australia, etc.

    • batsxs on 23/05/2019 - 13:37

      Actually huawei is quite privately owed in China

  • loropy9 on 22/05/2019 - 17:43

    No mate, googles/trumps move is all about spreading democracy and defending the free world.

    • orangetrain on 22/05/2019 - 17:50

      I can't wait to swallow USA's two party state! I hate the crazy hippies/nazis getting into government instead of the major centrist parties

    • try2bhelpful on 23/05/2019 - 06:43

      Great use of irony there.

  • Hithere on 22/05/2019 - 18:28
    +5

    Just like the WMD that they never found? If America tells us something it must be true?

    I also believe that Google also aren't keeping tabs on many things we do online.

  • Baghern on 22/05/2019 - 18:39
    +5

    The US was busted Spying on Germany… an ally

    Australia was busted spying on the Timor trade negotiations… nothing political, we just wanted an advantage in a trade deal

    Face it everyone spys, the issue is what countries do with it.

  • apple2016 on 22/05/2019 - 18:41
    +3

    They are probably not spying more then google, facebook etc…

  • Daabido on 22/05/2019 - 19:40
    +7

    Yes. They've already stolen all your capital letters.

  • AustriaBargain on 22/05/2019 - 19:41
    +1

    If you really care about privacy then you should probably steer clear of Android altogether. But do you really care if some government or corporation has some kind of access to your information, like what's the worst they are going to do with it. what's so special about your emails, map to the holy grail hidden in there somewhere?

  • roastchook on 22/05/2019 - 20:18
    +4

    You walk around any CBD, your image and movements are recorded. You use any mobile phone and data is recorded. Everything is up for grabs these days. Privacy has kinda disappeared.

  • mskeggs on 22/05/2019 - 20:38
    +4

    The issue with Huawei is the 5G cell equipment, the handset is stuff is just peripheral, trade posturing. Compared to Ericsson or Nokia or Qualcomm, Huawei are subject to the instruction of an adversarial government. If Huawei are told to include an undetectable instruction to cripple the backbone network, and a country uses that network, it can be vulnerable.

    • try2bhelpful on 23/05/2019 - 07:16

      If you are really concerned about that then any organisation involved in developing infrastructure could become adversarial. If they don’t like changes made by an Australian Government then they could develop a fault they will have trouble diagnosing. They could make a deal with a third party to eavesdrop on calls for particular high level people, e.g. ministers, CEOs, trade delegations.

      China has already diverted internet traffic to run through their networks and they aren’t alone in doing that. Basically, almost everyone spies on others, if they think they can get away with it and the info is important enough.

      Personally, my correspondence is so boring nobody would care, but the concern I have is that all this technology would’ve made it so much easier for Nazi Germany to control its citizens. Look relatively benign, gather the data then go batshit crazy. I’m not sure if I’m just paranoid or not paranoid enough.

  • Caped Baldy on 22/05/2019 - 21:07
    +6

    Yea. The US, Canada, NZ, Aus, and the UK have an agreement to spy on each other.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes

    • Koffee on 28/05/2019 - 12:26

      But of course, totalitarian regiemes that have a history of murdering dissent in other countries, installing agents and attempting to install agents in other countries, and actually inserting spyware onto phones (https://www.bankinfosecurity.com/did-chinese-spyware-linger-…) are far less dangerous than 'five eyes'.

  • conan2000 on 22/05/2019 - 22:06
    +1

    As per some of the comments above, it's the Chinese laws that are making it a problem for Chinese companies internationally. The main concerns from the Australian Government, are Huawei providing network equipment which could in theory allow them to spy/conduct attacks on critical infrastructure, sensitve data theft etc, they don't care if Huawei are snooping on every day Joe's cat video habbits on his personal mobile phone. There are concerns at the Government level, for good reason, about Chinese interests in Australia, Huawei jsut happen to be the primary Chinese company who provide this type of equipment, so are getting all of the bad press.

    When it comes to personal devices, you could be just as concerend with any devices from CHinese companies, as they are all subject to the same laws, the question is, how much do you actually care if they could? And that's not to say they definitely would be, they might just be compelled to do so by their Government. Huawei have jsut got the short straw in this case becasue of the US Government actions, which have made Google pull support.

  • grog on 22/05/2019 - 23:50

    It must all be true … i read it the internet

  • pgcs on 23/05/2019 - 08:10
    +1

    How many of the worlds PCs and laptops are made in China?

    Of these, which are used in government offices/white house/Pentagon…

    How many of the servers used by ISPs are Chinese made?

    IPhones are largely Chinese made, how can you be certain nothing was added?

  • RecklessMonkeys on 23/05/2019 - 12:25

    There is a trade war heating up between the US and China. Huawei is out-competing.
    As for phones/computers spying on you - they already are at different levels.
    Last year both sides of politics waved through legislation that allows for the decryption of your communications.
    Governments seem to view their citizens as the enemy.

  • Brendoo on 23/05/2019 - 16:25

    I would assume every piece of electronic communication we do is monitored, mostly by the USA but of course by China as well, where they can tap-in. They would be crazy not to spy seeing everyone else does. And if we think they don’t use Huawei and other Chinese companies to assist with that then we are totally naive.

    Look at where we live, Australia, home of Pine Gap who has the primary purpose of spying on all electronic communications. One of the biggest and most sophisticated spying installations in the world.

  • chumlee on 23/05/2019 - 16:28

    Lenovo spying too maybe

    • biggweilo on 23/05/2019 - 20:31
      +2

      I realise that the latest restrictions are very broad and have a flow on effect to handsets and mobile internet devices, however, the majority of "spying" is done on network cores with the cooperation of telcos and isps.

      Huawei and ZTE are well known for their telco infrastructure equipment. When you read articles like "Huawei banned from 5G in Australia", they can still make and sell 5G handsets and dongles. They are banned from the network cores that manage among other things as authentication, accounting and traffic flow. Huawei have a history of providing cheap infrastructure equipment (in particular to budget companies). There is a graph on this article that shows Huaweis dominance in telco infrastructure equipment

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-30/vodafone-…

      The trump order this week is about trade more than national security.

  • greywise on 23/05/2019 - 21:42
    +1

    Just think years forward and compare against this exchange of views which is a lot not technical but political.

    I remember in the early 60's in a University residential college in Australia.
    I was the only one who defended Nelson Mandela.

    In boarding school the Bursar called me "Commie". Not the Principal only because his son is a good friend of mine.

    I remember civil rights in the USA in the mid 60's. My close white friends' tell me I do not understand "negroes"
    To understand the plight of "abos". These were contrarian views of decent people.

    The loss of Vietnam and the domino theory.

    The discrimination against buying Japanese cars in late 60's and Japanese made engineering equipment in 70's

    Very likely in future we will be happily using Huawei as the dominant brand of 5G.

    '`The Imitation GameThe Imitation Game

    • Speckled Jim on 24/05/2019 - 09:10

      You'd remember Kissinger, Nixon and others courting China. NSSM 200 identified the potential significance of their labour force.
      Asia kicks US arse at the game, US upends game table.
      So much Winning!

  • Macgyver on 24/05/2019 - 22:23

    I know that US accuses countries like Russia, China etc of all sorts of things but they don't seem to ever show any actual proof and more just you should trust what they say. Not saying these countries don't do such things but it's definitely talked about more than US shady practices.

    On the other hand there is plenty of evidence of the American NSA/CIA etc spying on people via American software and then there is the malware created and all sorts of evil stuff.

    • Koffee on 28/05/2019 - 12:25

      There is too proof that China has funnelled data back to China. https://www.bankinfosecurity.com/did-chinese-spyware-linger-…
      Typically, the Chinese will claim this is a 'mistake' and try to run a 'false news' narrative against dissent. This is very common among totalitarian regiemes.

      The lack of 'proof' as you alledge is because Russia/China etc will relentlessly silence dissent up to and including sending agents into foreign countries to kill their targets. Wheras, America struggles to get other democracies to hand over suspects for prosecution of leaking of their sensitive data, and has more than enough citizens willing to leak continually about their own governments. In contrast, even being the wrong religion gets you locked up in China/Russia.

      Russia has laws which means that it's hardware standards for networking are different to those of other countries. It is also illegal to use wifi anonymously. http://blog.privatewifi.com/russias-latest-privacy-outrage-a…

      It is established that China have sought to insert intelligence gathering agents inside Australia and influence people toward China.

      The Americans have established that the Russians sought to interfiere in their elections. Russia has also invaded foreign soverign countries and annexed land. Whilst some smarty might contend that the US invades many countries all the time, and without reason, the USSR had a history of doing that too. The difference is the US tends to want to leave after a while, whilst Russia has no intention of leaving it's annexed section of Ukraine.

      • eug on 28/05/2019 - 13:28

        There is too proof that China has funnelled data back to China.

        There really needs to be a higher burden of proof on the Internet, which is full of sensationalist clickbait articles and websites desperate to build a reputation for themselves and gain all those clicks.

        Too many people read one thing (e.g. "phone sends calling/sms data overseas for spam blocking purposes due to misconfigured software"), then in their mind translate it to "Chinese government installed spyware on Android phones in the US to monitor calls and SMSes".

        What would the Chinese government do with a list of SMSes and phone numbers from budget Android phones?

        Sometimes Occam's razor is best followed. But humans love sensationalism and conspiracy theories, so there goes that.

      • greywise on 05/07/2019 - 17:17

        "It is established that China have sought to insert intelligence gathering agents inside Australia and influence people toward China"
        Proof? Other than from the media

        They have intelligence agents just as we have in China but to my knowledge none from both sides have been caught. There has been American agents caught.

        To use the phrase""It is established…." means already has been proven.

        Those Chinese from Hong Kong or a host of South East Asian countries portrayed in the media as contributing money to politicians and associations do it on their own. The Chinese everywhere throughout the world throws money around to influence and also as a matter of face. Privately most are anti Communists. If you mix with Chinese and have gone to restaurants with them who pays?

        A lot of comments and media reports send us Asians, Chinese not from China and some like me not even Chinese speaking roar with laughter.

  • AncientWisdom on 24/05/2019 - 23:44

    So you couldn't find a convincing argument on YouTube but thought you'd find an "expert" on ozbargain?
    I think you're confused… You come here when you want a "professional".

  • fimmwolf on 29/05/2019 - 09:35

    The U.S think tanks seem to think so
    https://www.rwradvisory.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/RWR-H…

    But half of the things they accuse Huawei of would apply to many U.S. companies and government agencies also.

    The other thing is that global 5G rollout's are worth approximately 500 Billion USD as well as thousands of jobs.

    Huawei are ready to begin rollouts now, the U.S aren't.

  • Sydney11 on 30/05/2019 - 01:29

    I was thinking if Washington really want to do a Showdown with Beijing, it can "officially" get really close with Taiwan. I feel Taiwan is Beijing's Achilles' heel. Even the mere suggestion of Taiwan being a "country" irritates Beijing, bet Beijing will be willing to agree to most demands as long as US and most of the world continues to recognize the "One China Policy, i.e. Taiwan is part of China"

    Maybe not Washington as the US Government (past and present) has done things that we aren't too proud of, but perhaps the International Media, UN, NGO can educate and expose to the world about the plight of Uyghur Muslims in Xinjiang, China. Get people talking about 1 million Uyghur Muslims in detention camps in China. And show evidence of Huawei and other Chinese government linked companies like Hikvision and Dahua actively participating in using technology to suppress, crackdown and police the Uyghur minorities.

    If the media and documentary can show that Huawei is actively helping the Chinese government in human rights violation against Uyghur Muslim minorities in China, I think and I hope most people will think twice before buying Huawei. I heard Huawei is big in Europe. Especially Europe with its first hand experience of Nazi Concentration Camps, I would hope most Europeans wont like the idea of buying a cheaper Huawei phone which is connected to Concentration Camps in China (show the evidence, documentary, get people talking). I heard Huawei is also big in Middle East, which is predominantly Muslim, if only they knew the sufferings of their Muslim brothers and sisters in China, innocent people being roundup and put into Concentration Camps, no freedom to practice their religion… doubt they would be buying Huawei especially during Muslim's holliest month of Ramadhan. I heard Huawei is also big in South Africa who went through Apartheid, hope they remembered how it felt like being controlled by another race and not wish it upon anyone else. I heard Huawei is also big in Columbia. I don't know much about Columbia :(

    Maybe just maybe with enough International pressure, we can persuade Beijing to end human right violation in China :)

    • try2bhelpful on 30/05/2019 - 05:21

      Best of luck on that but given how people are voting at the moment all people are really interested in is the dollars. Most of this is associated with trying to hammer out trade deals. It wouldn’t surprise me if this all went away if the trade terms were favourable enough and the company promised to behave.

    • greywise on 05/07/2019 - 18:02

      Do you know that half of Taiwan (the KMT supporters refugees from the communists) support China and eventual integration. The other half (also Chinese immigrants earlier than the end of the civil war) do not but they recognise that Taiwan like Hong Kong depends on China economically. They alternate every few years in government. Many on both sides are friends of mine.

      The Uyghurs is another matter. I do not know enough except China considers them Islamic extremists (there has been a series of uprisings and murders of ethnic Chinese and may joined Islamic state). These had happened even before China turned Communist.
      The head of the Uyghurs a woman was a communist member of Chinese parliament until she had a fall out with Peking.
      The people strongly backing the rebellion is Turkey and Indonesia Islamists. America gave her asylum but the islamic activities are curtailed.

      Remember Australia refused to accept the Uyghurs released from Guantanomo.

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