About to Get Learner's Permit, Any Advice?

Got my learners test booked in for next week, wondering if anyone has any tips for the test as well as the driving itself? In South Australia for any state specific info.

I've done the RAA multiple choice and give way questions a bunch of times and at the stage where I'm passing every time now. Going to be learning with my parents, and will definitely be taking advantage of the Keys2Drive program.

Already organised to be added as an authorised driver on the insurance so covered if anything comes up.

Would greatly appreciate any advice :)

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mylicence.sa.gov.au
mylicence.sa.gov.au

Comments

  • +10 votes

    Learn in a manual

    •  

      Well unfortunately don't have access to a manual to learn in. Interested in the reasons you think this is better though? Automatic just makes things easier no?

      • +1 vote

        What if you work somewhere that has a manual vehicle?

      • +1 vote

        Interested in the reasons you think this is better though?

        If you learn to drive in a manual, you can drive an automatic.

        If you learn to drive in an automatic, you can't drive a manual.

        Automatic just makes things easier no?

        If you want things to be easier, then yes, just learn to drive an automatic, then buy an automatic and only drive an automatic for the rest of your life. There's nothing wrong with that.

        Knowing how to drive a manual is like any other skill, it adds some fun to your life if that's where your interests are.

        • +2 votes

          If you learn to drive in an automatic, you can't drive a manual.

          Not true. If you are licensed in an auto you are allowed to drive manual. In NSW it's alloweed after P1, but SA might not even make you wait that long.
          Just a matter of learning manual at some point

          • +1 vote

            @crentist: Not true in WA. If you have manual licence, you can drive both auto and manual. If you have an automatic licence, you have to do the whole process again for a manual.

            SA is the same as NSW
            A driver's licence issued in South Australia applies to both automatic and manual vehicles, irrelevant of what type of vehicle you passed your test in. You can legally drive either.

          • +10 votes

            @crentist: Allowed to drive a manual doesn't mean you can drive a manual lol.

            •  

              @zeggie: Yea but that takes a few hours to learn, then a few weeks to get comfy with. A far cry from "only drive an automatic for the rest of your life". But a noob won't know that

              And plenty of people seem to think manual licenses are far more common than they are. Seems to be a bit of a myth.

          • +1 vote

            @crentist:

            If you are licensed in an auto you are allowed to drive manual.

            Not in terms of legality, in terms of practical is OP able to drive one.

            • +1 vote

              @HighAndDry: Just clarifying, because I often heard that a manual license was required, and it seems to be a common myth. Also because this part is a bit ambiguous:

              If you learn to drive in an automatic, you can't drive a manual.
              …learn to drive an automatic, then buy an automatic and only drive an automatic for the rest of your life.

              Learning to drive (a car) in an automatic is not the same as learning to drive a manual (car). You can learn to drive in an auto, then learn manual later. Nothing keeping you in an auto for the rest of your life.

            •  

              @HighAndDry: It's not hard.

              Nobody taught me to drive a manual, then one day I needed to drive a manual so I did. I never stalled it or crunched a gear.

          •  

            @crentist: I've been driving now for about 38 years and, while I learned and passed my driving test with an auto, my first car was a manual.

            This manual license thing must have come in a few years ago? There's nothing on my current license to say Auto or Manual. Is it only for P platers?

            •  

              @JTTheMan: In NSW it's for P1 only apparently, but I had been given the impression that it applied to full license too. It was only later when I already had a full license and was curious about manual that I learned I was allowed to drive them.
              I have had to explain this to a few other drivers since then, who asked if I did the test again.

              Funny you say it wasn't around long ago though. I figured it was probably an old rule that had been relaxed without people realising

            •  

              @JTTheMan: Edit "I've been driving now for about 28 years and, while I learned and passed my driving test with an auto, my first car was a manual"

        • +1 vote

          In VIC, once you transition to a full licence it doesn't matter if you learned on a manual or automatic

    • +13 votes

      I don't know about this. There's enough to learn about how the road works, why complicate things further?
      The usual argument seems to be that if you learn in a manual, you are comfortable in a manual from the start. And that maybe it's harder to learn later? Or maybe that autos instill laziness?

      But there's not much practical reason to learn manual. It's rare that it's actually needed, so it's mainly for fun.
      Since some people already struggle to drive in autos, it's not too bad to let them see if they can handle driving on easy mode, let alone enjoy it enough to want to skill up in it.

      I learned manual after driving autos for years. Bit scary, but I was already confident on the road so it was fairly painless and just a matter of time before manual become completely natural.

      •  

        I don't drive a manual as my daily, but I think knowing how to drive a manual does make you a better driver because it develops better habits. When you drive a manual, you have to use your brain more and it forces you to be more aware of your surroundings. You think ahead - if you're about to stop, you downshift, for example. It's not just a matter of "go" and "stop".

        Since some people already struggle to drive in autos, it's not too bad to let them see if they can handle driving on easy mode, let alone enjoy it enough to want to skill up in it.

        Not really an auto vs. manual issue, it's more of a driver education issue.

    • +1 vote

      Agreed. Forces you to have spatial awareness, and be aware of what the car is doing. If you can’t pass on a manual, you shouldn’t be driving. Hopefully you won’t end up like every other (profanity) on the freeway who thinks it’s their right to point and steer.

    •  

      I learned manual in a paddock basher, but no one needs to unless they're into cars. Something like 90% of new car purchases are auto. When shopping around last year, I explicitly avoided a manual because resale value is lousy, and it complicates who I can lend the car to.

      Unless you're a trucker, most companies that provide a work vehicle will be an auto because of the assumption that's what employees are comfortable with.

    • +2 votes

      Honestly, as someone who is currently 21 and only owned manual cars, it has been more of a hindrance than benefit.

      I did get one job (quite terrible tbh) due to me having a manual license, but other than that since none of my mates have a manual license, no one can drive my car if I need them to pick me up, since moving suburban the clutch really isn't a lot of fun and trying to sell my current manual car for an auto, very difficult.
      I hate to say it, but I so think manual cars are dying out. Current the only people I know to drive them are enthusiasts. Autos are just getting good.

    •  

      South Australia is full of Germans so get a VW beetle and if you can find the gears (particularly the reverse) you may get a career as a truckie! An old 30hp will help you to keep under the school speed limits of 25 a limit also enforced on totally separated 4 lane highways when a light starts flashing a mile away. Get a list of fines and talk to your bank manager of how much you can borrow.

  • +9 votes

    I taught my kids to look at the road FIRST and the speedo second. Your PRIMARY role as a driver is to drive safely and not run into other people. :)

    • +7 votes

      That’s ok unless you live in Victoria, down there it’s the opposite otherwise you will lose your license within a week.

      • -1 vote

        So I've heard. The REAL problem is that people seem to prefer having more accidents to losing their licensee and not many people at all are willing to challenge the revenue raising which is probably illegal anyway. Otherwise why do they keep paying the fines and voting the government crooks back into power? But hey, injustice is one of my hobby-horses so I'll stay off it for today. :)

        •  

          revenue raising which is probably illegal anyway

          You mean the "revenue raising" that happens when you do something illegal?

          Like the punishment for doing something you aren't supposed to do and that can put other people's life in danger?

          •  

            @spaceflight:

            Like the punishment for doing something you aren't supposed to do and that can put other people's life in danger?

            Some people might argue that a $200+ fine for doing 3kmph over the limit is excessive.

            Or are you saying any punishment is fine because that's the law?

            Would love to pass laws bringing the death penalty for not using your indicators…

      • +2 votes

        Victoria requires zero English skills! Use the horn or hand signs instead!

    •  

      this is what my driving teacher told me: leave your foot on the ground and change speeds with gears. If people do not flee from you you do not use the horn correctly!

    •  

      That may be useful for drivers who are learning. By the time people are on their full licence they should be able to at least maintain a speed +/-5k with occasionally glancing at the speedo. If concerned about going over the speed limit they can sit 3k under and not fear being fined. If they're going by the speedo they probably don't even need the 3k because they're probably still under the limit.

      I would consider someone whose speed regularly varies by more than 10k to be a bad driver and it's up to them to account for that.

  • -2 votes

    wear a skirt

  • +15 votes

    Take professional lessons and take a parent with you so they see what the instructor tells you and your parents don't teach you wrong things.

    Whether you take a few paid lessons or not, having 1 or 2 paid lessons just before your practical test is a must so the instructor can take you around the typical test circuit and tell you everything to watch out for, and have you practice doing parallel parks etc in the area that you'll likely be doing them in the test.

    •  

      Do you think using the one free lesson just before my P's test would be enough?

      •  

        It might be but you need time to get used to the instructors car and for them to get to know what info you need more of than others.

        What you could do if you don't mind spending one extra cost of the test would be - 1. Learn from parents 2. One lesson where you do the circuit 3. Take the test, if you pass, great, if not listen carefully to the testers comments about what you did wrong and need to work on 4. Go back to the instructor with that information and take some more lessons until confident 5. Take test again and probably pass. This is less emotionally upsetting than only learning from parents and failing 4 or 5 times because parents don't teach you things you have to do in the test, they only teach you how they drive (things change over the years)

      • +2 votes

        Keys2Drive is supposed to be taken when you first start learning. It is designed so that the parents can also spend some time in the vehicle to learn techniques that they can impart to their children. The actual on road component time is somewhere between 35 to 40 minutes, and from memory there is some theory component as well that is done before you get in the car. You might be able to find an instructor willing to do that for you before the test, but it is not what it was designed for and in 40 minutes, you won't get much done.

        I know lessons are expensive (although the instructor doesn't make a lot when you consider running costs and half an hour downtime in between lessons and travel to and from the client), but it's worth getting a few at the start, two in the middle and a couple near the end before the test. Each state has its own licensing requirements, so I can't comment on SA, but in Queensland I have heard lots of stories of people going to the test without having professional instruction who didn't know how to do the manoeuvres properly, or do shoulder checks as well as mirror checks, didn't know to check their tyres and lights before going for the test, and a whole bunch of other little things an instructor can advise you about.

        Ninety minute lessons are ideal for most people, although I suggest the first lesson be an hour. In Queensland, each hour with an instructor counts for three in your logbook, up to a maximum of 10 hours. You need 10 actual night time hours, even though they can also count for triple.

        • +1 vote

          shoulder checks and mirror checks

          Yes exactly, those are the kinds of things parents don't realise they need to teach their kids - having a look before merging is second nature to them and it can be hard to explain to their kids exactly when and how to do them. Especially because the tester will be watching and you have to do a certain number of checks on each time period and in certain parts of the manoeuvres etc. A parent will never know that. The Keys2Drive thing sounds good

      • +1 vote

        No. I’ve taught 8 or 9 kids to drive but professional driving instructors know the tricks of the trade; like where the testers take the students for the test; weird, unusual roads; nasty turn right situations; etc. etc Definitely get half a dozen professional lessons.

    • +1 vote

      I don't disagree with your advice in the sense that it will help OP to pass, but I think this is symptomatic of why people can't drive.

      having 1 or 2 paid lessons just before your practical test is a must so the instructor can take you around the typical test circuit and tell you everything to watch out for, and have you practice doing parallel parks etc in the area that you'll likely be doing them in the test.

      Knowing how to drive should not be about memorising the test circuit and knowing everything to watch out for and studying every single manouvre in detail. Knowing how to drive is about understanding other drivers and their intentions, being able to see hazards before they happen, and most of all, being able to react to things.

      • +1 vote

        To be clear, this is after learning to drive. Having an instructor point out things in the circuit that trip many people up like changes in speed limit where you might not expect them, and knowing you're likely to turn in a particular location so you know it is coming up and you don't get flustered when the tester tells you to turn and you weren't prepared and you do something silly etc.

        •  

          But if you need someone to tell you that there's a speed limit change at location X beforehand and where you're likely going to turn, then are you really ready to drive unsupervised?

          Furthermore, this is extremely concerning:

          you weren't prepared and you do something silly etc.

          If someone is going to do something silly when they're not prepared then they really shouldn't be driving unsupervised.

          •  

            @p1 ama: When you're taking the test, the conditions are very different to normal driving. You are a lot more nervous and you have someone telling you where to go instead of going to a destination you wanted to go to. In normal driving you don't normally think you're going straight then get told at the last second that you're turning and now you need to get into the other lane but there's a truck next to you and a car behind you honking because they want to go straight and you've slowed down so you can get behind the truck…. Knowing where you're going to go (or knowing that a turn is possible so thinking about how you'll get into the other lane if the tester does say that you're going to turn) is hardly like cramming for a test, you're just getting familiar with what might happen which is what you get every day when you go out and drive for real. It means you'll be calmer and can drive with confidence, so it will be closer to normal driving conditions rather than nervous test conditions.

            •  

              @Quantumcat:

              In normal driving you don't normally think you're going straight then get told at the last second that you're turning

              You must of had a bad instructor.
              Mine was like a GPS giving directions.

              Plus last second instructions mean last second turns which is not a safe way to dive.

    •  

      I tend to agree with the paid lessons. For me personally I had learned to drive from a young age and was already competent with the pedals and road rules etc. but the lessons taught me about how they want you to drive for the test. Staying under the speed limit, and when reversing ensure that you are looking behind you, either by turning your head or with the mirrors, until you have come to a complete stop. Did a reverse parallel park on a steep hill, from which I had to do a handbrake hill start (manual). All these thing's I could do already but it helped to do it with an instructor and get pointers on what could be improved.

  •  

    Learners permit as in L test? Anecdotally from a few friends, sometimes the giveway questions at the start can be a bit hairy, usually thats the one people fail, so you might want to bring enough money to try it twice. Also sometimes the giveway question is similar to what you've learned before but on a different side, you might literally just want to turn the question around a bit.

    Other then that, as long as you practised enough on the RAA site, you should be alright. Just don't forget to buy your plates so you can start driving.

    •  

      That's right. Is that possible to re attempt it immediately after a fail? Will do some more practice with the give way questions and will keep that in mind with the orientation.

      thanks!

      • +2 votes

        If you do a good amount of practice you won't fail. Make a mental note of anything in the practice that doesn't gel with your common sense (there will be a few of these) and everything else just go with your common sense. You're unlikely to fail

  • +3 votes

    I got my P-plates in Jan this year at the ripe old age of 29. Not because I kept failing over and over again. I just never learnt when I was younger because I had a massive fear of driving. I finally got myself a great driving instructor who I felt comfortable with. I passed my driving test the first go, thank god.

    I don't know what the required amount of driving hours is in your state (in Queensland it's 100 hours - I got to skip that because I was over 25), but if say you do the 100 hours and you still don't feel entirely comfortable going for your practical test… don't. Take a few more lessons or go for a few more drives with your parents and just wait till you feel 100% ready for any driving situation. There really is no point in rushing to take the prac as soon as your logbook is filled just because you're impatient. You'll have all the time in the world to drive after you pass, so better to pass it first go than to fail it and feel unconfident as a driver and then make more and more silly mistakes.

    •  

      In SA, you actually have to hold your L's for 12 months if you're under 25 (otherwise 6 months), as well as 75 hours so hopefully I'll be confident by then! Thanks for the advice :)

    • +1 vote

      Same here, didn't get my Ps until 31 because as a teen I had no interest and then living on campus at uni I just needed a bicycle, then eastern suburbs of Sydney where trains were fine. When I needed transport I had to get it fast so got motorcycle license. Then after that diving scared me in comparison - so many buttons to press that did stuff and view was obstructed on every side! Compared to motorcycle where you only had to think where you wanted to go and the bike went there, and could see everywhere. Eventually learned with about 8-10 lessons with a great instructor.

  •  

    Just about any kid has a learner's permit. That makes many thousands of 16 year olds every year.

    The bar is about this high.

    (I realise you can't see what I'm doing. I'm doing nothing. The bar is on the floor).

    Just don't go out of your way to fail.

  • +2 votes

    You're a kid?
    huh.
    Really can't pick em.

    Well, I would say the most important thing you could do is relax. It's been over 10 years since I did the learners test, but it was a joke then, and I'm sure its still a joke now. For the theory part, you just need to browse the book a few times, and most importantly do the practice questions.
    Like any adult who makes a test, the testers get lazy, so a lot of the practice questions are copied from the actual test. Just by doing it over and over, you end up better prepared than if you actually study the book.

    In the 'practical' part (and this is where being relaxed comes into it), you have to hit the button when you spot the hazard. If you hit it too early, it will be marked as an incorrect. Its geared towards 40 year old deadheads, not 16 year old tweakers, so if you have good reflexes you should take it slow. There's no prizes for being the fastest gunslinger in this game, so chill out.

    Finally, and this is more important than anything, dress to impress. Straight after I passed the test, I had to go to get my picture taken for my license. I had shoulder length hair and scraggly beard. I was so nervous about failing the test, I hadn't even considered what would happen if I past it. I had to be reminded of that every time I opened my wallet for 4 years.

    •  

      Good thing I suppose? Yep turning 16 next week.

      Have done the give way and multiple choice questions a bunch of times now and passed every time so I think I'm covered there. Didn't know anything about hitting the button for the hazard so thanks for that!

      And will try my best for that last one :)

      Thanks buddy!

      • +2 votes

        Very good thing. You're young and you're smart. Play your cards right, and you have a very exciting life ahead of you. Your so far ahead of the curve (so much so that you probably don't even realize it) that your biggest risk of failure might come from overthinking it.

        I took my test in Vic, and each state handles the learners permit process a bit differently, so you might get it like that, you might not.

        If you need any more information, feel free to PM me. The learners was relatively easy for me, so I don't have much more information on that, but the probationary license was a bit of a challenge so I have quite a bit on that.

  •  

    What we have done with our kids is to get them three lessons before they do any driving with us and then two lessons before the test. Seem to have worked well with two, the last one got the learners just the other day. Also, when they get they licence we pay for a safe driving course. Good luck.

    •  

      I mean I have the money to pay for driving lessons but I'd rather not aha. I am going to do the defensive driving course after I get my P's

  •  

    Not a test advice but this is important.

    All because you have the right of way doesn't matter. Remember it's better to be wrong and alive rather than dead and right if some one goes through a red light wait if some one doesn't look like they aren't going to give way when they should then giveway the objective of driving is to get to your destination alive and unharmed

    Best of luck mate…. Ps they might try to trick you with the old do a u turn at a no u turn section

    • +4 votes

      Important but subtle difference. There is no such thing as right of way when driving, all legislation refers to ‘giving way’.

      When it appears your situation has ‘right of way’ it doesn’t, it just means the other driver has a responsibility to give way first. Drive defensively. Expect the other person to be an idiot - just in case they are.

      So, to repeat the point above, but rephrase it slightly: Despite the other persons legal responsibility to give way don’t expect they always will.

      • +1 vote

        Solid points. I was taught that everyone on the road is a (profanity) moron…. Still holds true @op please also turn your neck and look when drivin.

        •  

          Pretty important, especially for anyone who rides a motorcycle. Problem is that it only takes one moment of inattention to cause a whole load of pain or grief to another. New tech like AEB and Blind spot detection help but good fundamentals are key. Always look/glance into the side and rear view mirrors when driving to get a sense of whats happening around you.

    •  

      Thanks so much for this! Will definitely keep this in mind

  • +1 vote

    Drive all the time. All. The. Time.
    Every time you get in the car, ask your parents to drive.
    When one of them is popping down the store, eagerly offer to drive them.
    Every time you drive, ask your parents if they can spare 10mins to practice parking in a nearby parking lot.

    Don't accept anybody telling you that driving on the highway or in traffic is beyond you after you have got past the basics, remind them you will have to drive in all circumstances soon enough and you need practice. Drive at night, in the wet, in the country, in the city - every where you can, whenever you can.

    You will know you re ready when in your mind you know precisely where every vehicle is around you, and you never get a surprise when you check your blindspot (and you always remember to check!). Take it easy on the speed, be completely solid on no drink, and when you are driving friends in a year, don't show off. Good luck.

    •  

      My parents are gonna hate you for this haha. How would you know when you have the basics? Will keep this all in mind thank you!

      • +1 vote

        As a trade off for all that driving, offer to clean/wash the car and learns but about car maintenance while you are at it.

        Don’t ever offer to drive if your parents are in a crazy rush to get somewhere. It’s just a recipe for pressure you don’t need.

        •  

          Sounds like good advice, thanks buddy!

          • +1 vote

            @realfancyman: 100% agree. Get out there and learn.

            I hate slow people. I hate people who can’t steer a car straight on the highway. But if I see that the person has an l plate, I smile and back right off.

            You have to learn from somewhere. In order to be proficient you need experience. How can you be proficient at highway driving if you never have been on a highway? Learn it right and you will be fine!

            Get out there, anywhere and everywhere. If you feel uneasy, slow down a little. Those plates do indeed give you freedom to stuff up and learn without too much scorn.

            As I suggested earlier, I’m hard on moron drivers. But they’re only morons because they never learnt properly in the first place.

            Just try to remember that every other driver is trying to kill you. It’s up to you to avoid it :)

      •  

        They will want a well experienced, safe driver.
        My eldest got her licence a year ago, and it was pretty easy to remember we wanted her to be the best driver she could be.
        She hasn't been booked or had any serious accidents, but let's just say I wouldn't get her to park a new car in a tight space.

  • +5 votes

    Sad but true, the road is FULL of idiots speeding, cutting people off, tailgating, not indicating and generally just arsoles and you have to share the road with them.

    They dont seem to get caught or have accidents but they cause them, so lesson one is even perfect drivers have accidents and get booked.

    Lesson two, your human and not a perfect driver either. Your going to make assumptions that are wrong, timing will be out and other drivers reactions wont be what you expect. So for the love of god, leave room, let other pass and merge and generally be a bloody saint as it helps you as you get handed a ticket for the days screwing up is your turn!

    Lesson three. Buy a good car with some smarts… Mazda and Toyotas have been selling them with lane guidance, automatic braking and blind-spot detection. These things should be freaking standard!

    Lastly, my iphone has a traveling car detection mode and its bluetooth only in that mode. Its also built into andriod. USE IT. Ive even discovered its ilegal and an ofence to touch your mobile in a drivethrough at mcdonalds unless the car is out of gear and the handbrake is on too. (seriously, I thought this one was a joke but its not)

    • +1 vote

      On lesson three: while it is good to have a car with safety smarts learn how to drive as if you have none. Learning to drive in an older car will teach you better habits and not to rely on sensors and stuff that may not always be correct.

      Case in point: often reverse sensors will pick up the garage walls when you are reversing out and according to them you are going to hit something. There may be something behind the vehicle as well. The mirrors will not pick up a toy or child that is directly behind the vehicle, the sensors will be screaming at you and you reverse out thinking it’s only the walls again … bad news.

    •  

      Thanks both! Will keep this all in mind

  • +3 votes

    Lesson one: A car is a deadly weapon. Treat it with respect. Over a tonne of. Teal at 60, even 40 can do serious damage.

  • +2 votes

    Yes.

    1/ Don't die
    2/ Don't kill other people.

  • +7 votes

    Secondary note look up dashcams Australia YouTube and watch some videos it will show you what to expect so your able to see it coming but whenever a crash / something stupid happens pause the video and think what each driver did wrong and put yourself in their positions….suggest muting if you don't like the full Australian language

    • +1 vote

      Good call. Although as this shows the worst of drivers, don’t get too nervous about it. You know: be alert, not alarmed.

      I’ve been driving since last century and been crashed into once, crashed into another car once, but so see poor driving almost daily. Sometimes you go for days without seeing any numbskulls but then other times it seems every minute or two some idiot is intent on crashing into you or someone else.

  • +1 vote

    AFAIK, Learners don't have to be on the insurance because they are "learning". Once you get your Ps it was a different matter.

    Source: Taught my 2 children to drive in the past 4 years. Insurance company for the personal car and suppliers of the company car both said Ls weren't an issue.

    Once on Ps company car provider said "No more driving until off Ps."

    Insurer of personal car said "Nominate drivers, increase of excess for P-Platers, increase of premium." (which I fully expected)

    • +1 vote

      My parents car insurance is with RAA, and their website states:

      Does a learner driver have to be listed on my policy?
      Yes. We require Learners to be added as drivers to the policy. Please call us or visit your local RAA Shop to discuss and update your policy accordingly.

      No higher premiums but my excess is higher.

      •  

        Proof that every policy is different. Well done for being prepared.

        Please try and learn how to drive rather than pass a test.

        My eldest is a really good driver but she took every opportunity to learn.

        She did a (free) night drive at Sydney Motorsport Park. She did a defensive driving course with Jim Murcott's school (also free compliments of my employer). She also listened to me as I explained cornering and braking techniques (I used to race and have done several driving courses).

        My youngest drives too fast and has terrible technique. She CBF enrolling for any free courses and thinks she knows it all. She's an accident waiting to happen and there's nothing I can do about it.

        •  

          She did a (free) night drive at Sydney Motorsport Park. She did a defensive driving course with Jim Murcott's school (also free compliments of my employer). She also listened to me as I explained cornering and braking techniques (I used to race and have done several driving courses).

          This should be compulsory for everyone. The fact that any muppet can learn to drive and that there is no curriculum to learn how to drive astounds me. When I got my pilot's license and motorbike license, I had to take detailed courses where we had a proper curriculum and things that everyone should know.

          •  

            @p1 ama: When i got my motorbike licence I'd already had my car licence for 2 years.
            This meant:
            1) No restrictions on what size bike I could "learn" on (was 250cc for a learner IIRC).
            2) I got my learners permit and immediately booked the test for the earliest available date a week later.
            3) The test consisted of me riding up the road; doing a feet up U-turn under the watchful eye of the tester and then an unsupervised lap around the block.

            As a result, I'd rate my riding abilities as being fairly crap. I didn't know about counter-steer until I'd had my licence 17 years. I'm still a crap rider due to too many bad habits.

            The general standard of riding was improving for a while, then the trendy, mid-life crisis Harley riders started followed by the delivery riders on scooters who have appalling riding skills, poor road sense and no sense of self preservation.

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              @brad1-8tsi: Geez, sounds much easier in your time. Now you have to go to a weekend course to get a bike license. People are a better rider for it though.

              The general standard of riding was improving for a while, then the trendy, mid-life crisis Harley riders started followed by the delivery riders on scooters who have appalling riding skills, poor road sense and no sense of self preservation.

              I'd still say that, in general, riders are more competent than drivers. I think it's partly because they have better skills (on average), but also a big part of it is just awareness. Being in a car is the most dangerous thing we do on a regular basis, but it feels safe to be in an enclosed box. When you ride, it feels more dangerous, so I think you act accordingly.

              Delivery riders are terrible - I work in the CBD and they just do the most dumb things (e.g. riding on footpaths, I've seen close misses with pedestrians). I've seen one go the wrong way down a one-way steet. Just idiotic, I wonder how long till there's a tragic accident.

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