General question, are you eating less meat than you were 12 months ago? My wife has started eating less, which means I have as well. Noticed more of the weekly shop has been heading to veggies and less into meat, now its mainly a pack of chicken a week between us. No big ethical reasons, just eating less.
Curious if this is a wider trend in your house as well?
@7ekn00: Nice one mate. You deny anthropogenic climate change, contrary to vast amounts of evidence and upwards of 97% of the scientific community.
Your "thought experiments" are basic recycled bullshit that a child could come up with. You've ignored actual evidence in order to cling to a claim that suits you.
It's clear that you're not open to reasoning, but hopefully others will read this and realise how stupid one side of this argument is.
@manlol: I will say it again slowly for the vegans with their brain fog:
I never denied the climate was changing - so I agree with the 97% of those scientists ;)
However, there is not a single computational model for CO2 in the atmosphere that you can run forwards and backwards to confirm it is the only cause (but there are for things like solar flare activity, water molecules, etc)
Good thing you can't even logically debunk my thought experiments to the point your last resort is name calling - kind of makes the point on it's own doesn't it :P
As an ex-vegan I am far more open minded now than when I was part of the mind controlled vegan hive that can't see past their own confirmation biases!
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@7ekn00: Ok, now let me repeat my sentence for you:
"You deny ANTHROPOGENIC climate change, contrary to vast amounts of evidence and upwards of 97% of the scientific community."
Are you getting the key word here?
I'm not going to start a tangential argument with you as I'm more than done with this one, but no one is trying to argue that CO2 is the "only" cause of climate change.
What is there to "logically debunk" in your "thought experiments"? Yes, the sun's energy impacts the temperature of the earth. Yes, not ALL plants are beneficial for human consumption. What have you proven?
That for some period of time you did not eat animal products, for whatever reason, does not make you an open minded person. Clearly.
@manlol: He didn’t deny climate change, he was actually in support of climate change, Chicken Little is the vegan in his story, where he is the one putting the argument that the worlds has gotten hotter the vegan is saying yeah but everyday it get hotter.
His basically saying that people that are pushing meat farming as the the big bad generally disregard all negatives about crop farming.
Crop farming is also due for improvements that are once again put off due to profits, I can get into a large list of the damages, effects and potential fixes of crop farming if you want, but it’s not really the point as the real discussion is about meat due to the larger land use.
Like a lot of things nowadays, popularity of veganism and vegetarianism within pop culture has forced a skewed prospective within the general consensus forcing proponents to disregard negatives of one thing and developing a steadfast approach to anything that contradicts what they believe. This afflicts more then most realise as even researchers need money to live and regularly have to pump out papers that appeal to the status quo at the time so they can get funding.
A paper can be very misleading while still being 100% correct, all a person has to do is cherry pick what to include and the reader will often draw a conclusion that may not actually be right.
@manlol: It’s funny you bring up the strawman thing, not taking a jab at you but it reminded me of a video I saw a few years back of a vegan grabbing some road kill (think it was a rabbit) and taking a big bite of it and complaining that if we should eat meat it has to be with the unprepared. (with the skin on and uncooked) made me giggle.
Alderson your argument is poor, crop farming also damages the environment. The reason meat is bad is because it’s inefficient it will also always be inefficient, it requires more land, water, labour and nutrients to grown and produces a less calorie rich product then crop farming. Paired with current methods like keeping livestock in one area too long that causes compaction of the soil, destroys biodiversity of an ecosystem and causes ground water to become toxic alwhile they burp out a potent ghg and livestock can be rather damaging BUT if we changed the process with a few small things like raising livestock in a different area each year, much like crop rotation we can pick a area lacking with nutrients and raise them there. This will restore life to an area which may have succumbed to desertification due to logging and over clearing. The introduction of asparagopsis to their diet reduces methane production by 99%, there is the two largest issues related to cattle farming almost entirely gone.
I agree with the eat what you want, if not eating meat make you feel like your superior to everyone all the best to you, but understand that currently you are disregarding other means due to what is currently in vogue. That easily implementable fixes are being ignored due to greed and that other companies are profiting off ignorance.
JustASmoothSkin - thanks for your thoughts.
I'll pose my argument as a series of questions. If yes, move to the next question. If you think the answer to one is no, or that the question is misleading, let me know below. Hopefully this will allow us to narrow things down to see what's causing our opposing conclusions.
1) Do you believe in anthropogenic climate change (climate change resulting from human activity - THIS specifically is what the 97% of scientists agree on, not just that the climate is changing for some unknown reason).
2) Do you agree that this is bad, and therefore we should try our best to reduce the impact?
3) Do you agree humans need at least some form of food?
4) Do you agree, based on your answer to 2 and 3, that we should prioritise the kinds of food that has the least impact? Maybe crop production also has issues, but we need something right?
5) Do you agree that plant based food production is less impactful than meat production?
6) Therefore do you agree it's best to reduce meat consumption and prioritise plant based foods?
Assuming you get as far as 5, consider how food is currently produced. You described potential improvements for meat production, but none of that is commonplace. Your last sentence says it all… until people like you take a stand and stop buying meat, why would these greedy companies change their way? You seem to agree meat production is bad, but then expect someone else to come in and fix it for you, during which time you'll just continue consuming it?
Also as a general point, keep in mind that ~36% of crop production goes to livestock feed.
@Alderson: Yep, I agree with all of the above. However within culture the view on livestock has began to become toxic, which it shouldn’t be, and I believe by providing information that is usually conveniently left lacking in anti-meat articles may spread awareness that may allow for more people to stand up and make their voices heard. Voting with your wallet in this case will actually cause damage due to farm subsidies and bailouts, as well as the unemployment that will result from many people having to leave their occupation. What is needed in this situation is a voice that can excite change and reform in the industry.
This isn’t as cut and dry as reduce meat consumption, save the world. Many peoples livelyhoods in both the livestock and crop industry relie on the rising of livestock, many small towns would literally collapse if meat wasn’t in demand. All that extra low quality crops that are deemed too poor for human consumption. Imagine you are a grain grower, this season it was windy and you had to re-sow your fields 3 times because the wind blew your topsoil all around your field over and over again, to top it off while the last few year were generous this year rain was scarce and your crop hasn’t delt well. Your yield is small, and much of it is poor. Without livestock that poor quality grain is useless.
Truck drivers are out of the job, we won’t need that 1/3rd of the crop fields we currently use to feed animals so less seasonal work for plant operators like sprayers and harvesters. Seasonal work for roustabouts declines. Many animals that we would raise for other produce such as wool and dairy would become either a waste or burden as they can’t be disposed of except a hole in the ground. Those other produce get more expensive, wool, eggs and dairy go up in price because the animal itself becomes a cost.
Small town shops will close up because they relie on the extra people brought in for seasonal work.
Road workers that do road repairs would see a decrease in available work, as less trucks are used to haul grain and livestock, that’s lay offs in another entire industry.
The industry needs reform, reform will happen from education.
NO
i only eat meat
I have been decreasing meat or sometime, and as of the start of this year it's fairly rare now we eat meat as a family. My kids are allowed to eat meat all they like if they choose, but they mostly are happy to not. We just make sure we're eating more eggs and beans to suppliment the protein. For me it's mostly about sustainability, but animal welfare is a factor. Particularly with seafood. Everyone is entitled to their own take on this. I don't ever try telling people they should do the same, not even my own family.
You are what I aspire to be :) good job
You should look into different sources of protein, a lot of veggies are super high in it. I know people love their eggs but they're super shit for you cholesterol unfortunately for me.
You do realise dietary cholesterol has a small impact on serum cholesterol. Eggs are fine.
True but it isn't unequivocal yet, have a read of this https://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/news/20190315/a…
But it does look like it's a similar thing as to soy & estrogyn
@Scantu: That entire article is based on a meta-analysis of epidemiological studies. There is no basis for an intervention (eat less eggs) in those results. Even if they could prove causality, which they cannot, the differences between absolute risk eggs V's no eggs is microscopic. Humans have been eating eggs for hundreds of thousands of years, CVD would be much more common throughout human history if eggs were causal.
Soy, on the other hand, is a newer introduction to human food and I would treat it with far more suspicion.
@ChickenTalon: Well it wouldn't be microscopic, it would be the same as eating any other high cholesterol food which would be non-negligible especially if you simply don't need them. Watch out for the naturalistic fallacy too.
Soy has been around for a loong time and you are not able to process the estrogen in it which has been proven outright.
The bulk of our diet is vegetables. I probably eat around 6-8 eggs a week. A variety of beans and Quiona have been the big thing we've added into our diet. I think the egg issue is similar to what we're discovering about a lot of fats, it is dependant on a lot of other factors than just fats are bad.
Reduction counts! :)
I found https://nutritionfacts.org/ and since then on special occasions I may eat a bit of eat meat etc, but generally eat a whole foods planed based diet now.
No different to saying:
I found https://www.dietdoctor.com/ and since then, on special occasions, I may eat a bit of plant matter, but generally eat an animal based diet now ;)
Both can selectively cherry pick "science" publications to support any view they like :P
Science is so corrupt due to funding issues and pressure to publish or perish, you can find a study to support any view you like now days :/
Yeah, both can selectively pick science to support their view, however my cholesterol went from 6.2 to 3.4. You do the animal diet and report back.
There's obviously a lot of push back re plant based diets from those who are disgustingly obese in the population (which is growing at a rapid rate) as they love their unhealthy lifestyle and don't want to change.
BTW, try being fat on a plant based diet. It isn't easy. You can pretty much eat as much as you want.
I also think it doesn't matter how one comes to the revelation - a whole food plant based diet is healthier than having ultra-processed (ozbargain approved) meals full of fat/sodium etc.
especially try on a processed meat+chicken/beef etc diet.
that would be interesting.
@bohn: If you choose to eat that style of food, as in heavily processed then meat isn’t really the issue at hand.
Many foods become unhealthy and lose their vitality once processed, meat does not have special properties here.
At today’s price you have to. Sustainability can kiss my arse.
Sustainability can kiss my arse.
What makes you say that?
the guy one or two posts before said he does not meat mostly because it will help the planet. I have arrived to an age where reading of this or people recycling coffee capsules or going to Cibo with their recyclable cup makes me roll my eyes.
But that's the point of reducing meat consumption, it's impact on the environment is much MUCH more substantial than almost anything else a single person can do. Watch Cowspiracy, it's a documentary about a guy that used to be one of those 2 minute showers, ride a bike to work, recycle coffee cups kind of guy and the journey he went through realising none of that mattered at all compared to his meat consumption (e.g. one less burger is equal to the water saving of 6 months of 2 minute showers or something such). It's honestly a good movie, quite humourous at times, an enjoyable watch personally. Even if you don't agree with it I believe it's good to expose yourself to different ideas 🙂
Virtue signalling seems to be a trending term.
so because people use recyclable cups we and it annoys you we should say a big F U to sustainability? You're right in that it's become a bit cliche, but that's not a reason to not support something. Late-stage capitalism is an awful mess that's turning our planet into a dumpster fire, but the fact that sustainability is trending means there are some large companies turning their businesses around to support it. It sucks that it takes that to make it happen, but if it's a better result at the end, well I guess I'm on board.
Isn't it cool where a lot of grocery giants have ready cooked roasts at prices where you wouldn't bother cooking yourself .
Also believe too many # in #dontfillyurbelly goat/health food around that a smart entrepreneur could smash it with #bbqallmeats in sadly becoming a niche market .
What sheets me the most is vegans/vegetarian's have to use meat names for their crap .
What sheets me the most is vegans/vegetarian's have to use meat names for their crap .
https://theconversation.com/why-france-banned-meat-names-for…
It bothers me, too. I accidentally bought beef style stock because it was cheaper than continental stock. Got it home and realised it was vegan. Took it back the next day and got my money back. My partner said “why didn’t you just try it out or throw it away?” I said, “I’m not ruining $18 worth of beef with beef stock that’s not beef stock, nor just throwing it out, because it would mean $1.50 of my money would go to a Vegan food company and I just won’t have that.”
They should really put all the vegan faux meat products in one section and label it “food for snowflakes”.
I eat heaps of fish and eggs on keto.
I use a little dairy, and prefer pork to beef.
I'm pretty sure I eat more veges on keto than I would otherwise, plates full of spinach, asparagus and broccolli vs tomato and lettuce in a cheeseburger and potatoes as chips.
I'm aware that salmon farming has environmental drawbacks, but that's not going to stop me eating heaps of salmon. Hopefully all the money I'm contributing to the salmon industry leads to some innovation.
I was always preaching climate change stuff but I realised I was just a hypocrite, so I went vegan ~2 years ago and haven’t looked back. How could I have called myself an environmentalist when I was personally funding habitat destruction and carbon emissions.
New managerial position at hotel comes with a meal each day. I've eaten more steak this year than the previous five combined. And if i don't eat a steak it will be chicken.
I miss cooking at home at this point. I'm jonesing for my home made satay chicken but most days off i'm happy with a sandwich.
I know what you mean, used to get half price or free meals at different jobs, eating good meat every night was pretty wild
yep. the price of fresh red meat is ridiculous. cereals, legumes, beans are pretty good. recently started substituting burger patties with whole portobello mushroom caps. tasty!
google plant based diet.
not pseudoscience.
eat more greens, more wholegrains.
choose not to die.
red meat consumption via nitrides causes intestinal cancer. eating fibre ontop doesn't neg it out. reduce red meat consumption, eat more high fibre, indigestible starches, wholegrains, steamed then cooled rice.
anymeat in large quantities where salmon etc is not that good for you as large amounts of animal protein causes excessive insulin release after a meal leading to reduced insulin sensitivity leading to type 2 diabetes.
The above will save you money, i take 10% commission on savings or 10% of goodwill of increased lifespan.
read this https://nutritionfacts.org/
choose not to die early ;)
Everything I've read says neoglucogenesis is demand driven rather than supply driven. Care to clarify or point to research showing protein causes insulin sensitivity?
How do I choose not to die?
I am eating exactly the same amount of meat what I was eating 12 months ago. Neither a gram more nor a gram less.
veganism is the ultimate ozbargain lifestyle, as long as you don't buy things like veganaise and fake meat or anything organic
Noob meme.
Pasta is 99c whoever buys it — vegans or carnies. Funny how price and type of "sauce" isn't mentioned.
Any chef knows the secret's in the sauce. The smiley Asian man in the Kan Tong ads taught us that in the 80s.
The sauce is the expensive part, unless you're making Busy Girl's Lasagne.
In which case, enjoy your noodles with ketchup.
Pasta is 99c whoever buys it — vegans or carnies.
Animal flesh is $20/kg - only carnies buy it, vegans would never. So I'm not sure what your point is.
The impoverished of the world eat predominantly plants. The world over meat consumption is currently directly correlated to wealth.
@afoveht: hmmm, so poor people are vegan, rich people eat animals …
the statistics look good, I'm sold!
Veganaise is the best. I'm very sensitive to eggs and that stuff is a absolute godsend
veganism is the ultimate ozbargain lifestyle, as long as you don't buy things like veganaise and fake meat or anything organic
if you want cheap vegan mayo just get the praise fat free one haha
https://shop.coles.com.au/a/a-national/product/praise-mayonn…
Yep - have been vegetarian for about 2.5yrs now.
Initial concern for the change was due to health, having read/seen material regarding saturated fat consumption leading to heart disease (family history of heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, etc.).
Concerns since adopting 2 puppies have been on the ethical side of things as well, but I wouldn't be so stupid to take it as far as 'vegan protesters'. Don't get me wrong, I understand what they are trying to do but it's the stupidest way to convince/spread a message.
What made me switch was having material presented to me and being allowed to do with that information what I wished, not having it shoved it my face and telling me I'm wrong.
wouldn't be so stupid to take it as far as 'vegan protesters'.
As stupid as sexually violating cows and killing their children while talking about "the ethical side of things?"
Mate I'm all for there being less animal abuse in the world but I'm not going to shove it down the public's throat by stopping traffic and being a nuisance.
Missing the point or shifting the blame - I don't know which one you just did.
yeah I kind of agree with both sides on that. Sometimes the only way you can bring about meaningful change is protest. Historicaly that's where social change has come from, public pressure. But I also don't really believe in shoving things down peoples throats they don't necessarily support. Because I think we can eat meat sustainably and ethically, it just needs to be in much smaller quantities. But again that's personal choices.
lamb is a baby sheep.
Baby sheep are delicious.
Why did the lamb call the police?
because she'd been fleeced
I turned vegetarian when I was 8 (as the only one in my family), so I guess my answer would have to be "no", as I'm eating exactly the same amount as I did 12 months ago.
I have eaten red meat/chicken about 3 times in 27 years. Last time was at my sons 21'st in January, couldn't be bothered cooking anything else and had a few sausages. I just don't like the taste. Would rather have a lentil or another veg pattie on a burger than beef.
I do believe over eating of red meat is a cause for some diseases though.
I think I had meat on 3 occasions today.
you believe it or scientific consensus told you so?
Eating red meat can cause or at least contribute to some diseases.
But that's not going to stop me lol
I am guessing anyone that believes in climate change wouldn't or would stop eating red meat/chicken.
Seems like chicken is something you'd switch to if you wanted to reduce you impact on climate change. Not that I agree with a blanket "red meat" causes climate change.
Seems like chicken is something you'd switch to if you wanted to reduce you impact on climate change.
You're 100% correct about that one. But username and a avatar don't checkout.
A lot of people believe climate change exists, but still eat meat.
What a ridiculous thing to say.
Yes I am trying too but it is hard to not limit myself. For me vegism is too extreme and too idealistic when others purposefully try to eat more just because you dont. All I can do is try to reduce my impact every where I can while trying to limit my financial risk as well.
I applaud the work the extreme diets do but the best I can do is educate and vote.
when others purposefully try to eat more just because you dont
Don't worry about what others are doing. To be honest, other than a few crazies, I don't think anyone is eating more meat on purpose to attack vegans, it's just silly internet comments.
P.S. If I say anything like that online, I'm just messing around.
im in construction and its definitely prevalent
People who say that sort of thing… I have no idea it's just not even funny - I'm all for jokes but it's so lame!
Another point that I find interesting, I would love to know if they would openly pisstake say a Muslim for not eating pork. It's something I've run into which is interesting… People respect religious morals but not nontheistic ones.
most people I know would definitely pisstake muslims
If its because they are racist it doesn't count though, just sayin' haha.
The majority of people would not because of this weird phenomenon of believing that religious morals are more valuable or inarguable.
Educating yourself and others, making more informed decisions and reducing your impact on the environment, animal cruelty and food wastage etc, are all great things. If more people did this, the combined reduction would be so much!
Reduction (becoming more plant based, shopping more ethically) is a great contribution.
This is exactly what I try to do. More so on the dont waste anything but then i see my workmates buy loads of unnecessary shit and i sad for life.
Since the rise of Vegans, I got myself a new freezer with just all kind of meats.
When I barbecue, I like to have 4 different animals on the one plate for that same reason.
Costs too much, supermarket quality isnt great and vegetarian food is sometimes cheap and tastier.
you can buy cheap cut of meats and make it taste great if you know how to cook.
Yes, with more and more meat free options on the market (both at grocery stores and restaurants), I am keen to try a more plant passed diet. Mad Mex does an AMAZING mock chicken, to the point where I was questioning the authenticity and if the server gave the me real chicken (she didn’t, I see her put the vegan option down all the time but I still question it). Would recommend 10/10
Keen to try it!
@manlol: LOL I didn't say I deny climate change, that was you with the typical vegan assertion from the usual vegan propoganda play book (they all do it - it must be like a script to deal with critical thinkers they can not bash with their propaganda - just like Scientology does) ;)
The climate has changed for millions of years (ice ages, continent shifts, pole changes, etc) and will continue to change!
My critical thinking is the ability to reason that it is not due to plant food and probably due to the actual thing that can change temperatures in hours ;)
Good to see you couldn't even complete those actual thought experiments with all that "critical thinking" you claim to have!
LOL
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