Travelling for Work, Is It Fair to Wake up 4am to Catch a Flight?

Decorot on 10/10/2019 - 21:07
Last edited 10/10/2019 - 21:07

Hey team, i think my employer is really abusing me, it's my first job travelling for work so i'm not sure how it's supposed to be, "small" busines with no clear policies.

I work 9am-6pm, if i do overtime it's unpaid

I fly for work 1x a month
they usually book the flights for 7am (but i still work til 6pm)
departure 7am means arrive at airport 6am which means leave home 5am which means wake up 4am, not to mention 1h (unpaid) packing up on sunday night
Then the return flights…
Start work 9am, fly back 5:40pm, end up getting home 8pm.

doesn't sound fair but seems that my boss thinks all the travelling is just part of my role

anyone else travel for work here? how is your arrangement usually?

I love my job but don't know how to approach this, or if i should just accept it as it's normal?

Travel

Comments

    • RockyRaccoon on 11/10/2019 - 05:17
      +9

      Easy doc, they are here discussing something, that like all of us, we need to do at different times in our lives. Reading their responses they do have mixed feelings and they need to be heard.

      Already they are letting go of some of their concerns after hearing what others experienced.

      You have to remember that they have probably been influenced all their life up to now, by teachers/lecturers who believe all workers are, always, being screwed by the boss.

      • [Deactivated] on 11/10/2019 - 09:07
        +1

        Except all teachers and lecturers are being screwed over by the system too. Most public servants are the people taking these type of flights and working overtime which isn’t necessarily reflected by the salary, however, the benefits and working conditions they receive can help compensate for that although not monetarily.

    • EDM on 11/10/2019 - 08:34
      +1

      This is something I would actually complain about. Work to live, not live to work.

    • OzzyOzbourne on 11/10/2019 - 12:58
      +2

      There are people who walk 4 hours to find water each day…. Does that mean we all should?

  • whooah1979 on 11/10/2019 - 07:17

    they've sponsored me

    Does this mean that you are in Australia on a working Visa?

  • giftcardinspector on 11/10/2019 - 08:24
    +2

    Why does it take you an hour to pack for a one day trip?

  • askme69 on 11/10/2019 - 08:53
    +1

    For every hour i spent travelling i would get 1 hour leave in lieu and also get paid the 1 hour as well.

    NSW GOV.

  • [Deactivated] on 11/10/2019 - 09:04
    +1

    Standard, especially on a salary.
    Accept the role and responsibilities or move positions.

  • picklewizard on 11/10/2019 - 09:23

    I have to do this semi-regularly.

    I prefer to go up the night before. It's more of my own time lost, but it's more relaxing and I treat it as a bit of a holiday.

    Ask the employer to spring for an Airbnb - I had a flight cancelled once, and I couldn't get on one for almost 4 hours after. It's cheap insurance!

  • magic8ballgag on 11/10/2019 - 09:29

    Stating the obvious here, but this is something that probably should have been discussed during your interview, and then the terms/conditions of the position considered by yourself before accepting said role.

    • GUYANDSON on 11/10/2019 - 10:32
      +7

      Travelling for work sounds amazing.

      The reality of it is pretty terrible. It's nothing like travelling for a holiday, it's not often at all where you're given time to go out and explore/experience wherever you've flown to. The expenses of the flights/accommodation need to be justified, so it often means early mornings, late flights home and essentially means a written off day/afternoon/night. It's easy to find yourself giving your time to work for 13+ hours on these days, with the expectation of rocking up to the office as usual the next day.

      People put up with it because they are usually paid well enough to compensate.

  • lltravel on 11/10/2019 - 09:39
    +6

    OP you should be getting paid as soon as you leave home

    Yes you won't get paid for packing time, waking up early

    You should get
    - TIL
    - Daily food allowance
    - Paid travel to and from home

    • picklewizard on 11/10/2019 - 09:56
      +1

      This is a bit entitled.

      • lltravel on 11/10/2019 - 10:25
        +2

        how so? I travel for work all the time and this is what they told us. How is it entitled when it's directly from the company?

        Nothing is free. Your time = money for the company = you should be paid for it.

        If they are sending you interstate they need to cater to your lifestyle

        I have claimed gym visits as well without question.

        • picklewizard on 11/10/2019 - 10:39
          +1

          That's a perk, but absolutely not an entitlement.

          "OP you should be getting paid as soon as you leave home"

          By this logic, your employer should be paying you for your time and travel to and from the office 5 days a week.

          Are you trying to claim you're on the clock from the moment you step out the front door to the moment you arrive back?

          A bit of TIL is reasonable but let's be real - it's still a lot of downtime.

          • lltravel on 11/10/2019 - 10:55
            +5

            @picklewizard: No that's for a normal workday

            If you're doing something such as travel you are paid when you leave your house until you arrive back.

            Usual hours would be 8.30am - 5 pm

            If i leave at 5am I will be paid OT from 5am - 8:30am
            If i arrive home at 8pm I will be paid OT from 5pm - 8pm

            This 100% reasonable and not a perk

            • You're leaving earlier than expected
            • You're breaking your own routine to cater to your employer
            • You're using different modes of transport
            • You're eating out of your usual schedule.

            You haven't worked long enough in a corporate setting to know what the rules would be.

            You're entitled to claim any bit of OT or TIL when you step foot out of your door

            This has been the same rule at 3 different companies I have worked for.

            If I am traveling to a client's office and i leave earlier I would also claim OT or TIL for that early start.

            Your employer is making money off you, it's only fair you claim what you're entitled to.

            Again, these rules were set by the company and not me.

            • SBOB on 11/10/2019 - 11:03
              +1

              @lltravel: Same, working for a smallish engineering company.

              When I get up and leave at 4:30 to catch a flight or drive 4 hours to get to a customer's site, I start the clock when I leave.
              When I don't get home till 8 or 9pm, after driving 4 hours back later in the week of the last flight back, the clock stops when I get home.

              We do a 40 hour week, not a 38, but overtimes paid ,as you're charging the customer $ for travel time not just face to face

              If your company isn't charging for travel time, and you're hours or a flight away, your quoting team needs to value it's staffs time more.

            • p3nf0ld on 11/10/2019 - 22:16

              @lltravel: This has changed dramatically over the last 10 years. Most fly-in fly-out has changed to only be paid from when on-site. When workers were in demand it included your travel time but not anymore for the most part. As a result most other industries are changing too.

              • stewy on 13/10/2019 - 01:16

                @p3nf0ld: FIFO is variable in what they offer I have observed, some will be both ways in company time, some only one way paid and others not paid at all. It is all basically all dependent on what they need to offer to get people to go work for them.

                As for trade contractors, engineering contractors and engineering consultants, etc, you are always paying for their travel time to get to your site. I'm yet to find one that doesn't charge travel time and we engage quite a few different ones in my current company. Whether their employees charge from the time they leave home or their company's premises I wouldn't know, we don't question the invoices we receive that in depth.

                When I was working previously for an engineering contractor, we were supposed to charge from the time we left our company's premises. We had either access to company vehicles or paid mileage in our own car. So when I went direct to site first thing in the morning, I'd just stay on the freeway instead of getting off it to go to my company's office and would just start charging the customer from the time I was passing my company's general location. When we did long distance travel, the travel time was all paid and charged to the customer at our usual rates, including overtime charges if it was outside normal working hours. Accommodation was all fully reimbursed and there was a $100 flat rate meals allowance, which was all billed to the customer (or on fixed price jobs allowed for in the initial tender submission).

            • koplik8 on 12/10/2019 - 13:34

              @lltravel: Well said. That's what I would be saying. If you ask for OT they will only let you fly during business hours!

  • profar on 11/10/2019 - 09:42
    +1

    That’s more wide spread than people imagine the employer expecting overtime for free !

    • matthewperk on 11/10/2019 - 14:00
      +3

      "reasonable overtime" is built into most Salaried employment contracts. If you check in and check out exactly to the minute for your workplace hours then, you're unlikely to get the opportunities and promotions that come with putting in the extra mile.

      Additionally if you're not once to check in/out by the clock, your employer is likely to be more relaxed with your hours as well… Need to skip out for a doctors appointment, or want to beat the traffic out of town on a public holiday weekend, no worries! What comes around, goes around. Saying that if you're in a workplace that is completely inflexible with your own hours, but expects regular overtime, and you're not above the award wage… Then it's probably time to start looking somewhere else.

  • netjock on 11/10/2019 - 09:43
    +1

    Just tell them you found a cool new app called Skype that will allow you to see the other person and work collaboratively. They might give you a raise.

    • [Deactivated] on 12/10/2019 - 09:00

      If only the benefits of technology was actually passed on to workers. LOL

      • RocketSwitch on 14/10/2019 - 11:37
        +1

        Only upper management and shareholders.

    • IridiumFlare on 13/10/2019 - 10:43

      This would have been viable prior to “Fibre to the Node” becoming our default 3rd World choice of national broadband solution. VC’s these days seem to spend more time on “sorry can you repeat that” than actually sorting out the stuff you are meeting about.

  • bajillionaire on 11/10/2019 - 09:49
    +1

    That travel time over and above your normal commute really should be credited to you as time-in-lieu. Ask for this, and make it the norm to go along with the norm of business expecting employees to subsidise their costs with their own personal time and expenses.

  • knk on 11/10/2019 - 09:49

    Kinda normal, also kinda unfair. I'm of the opinion that your workday should start at 9am, finish at 5pm give or take some reasonable overtime. A 7am departure isn't exactly unreasonable and if you knew the job required frequent travel and you didn't live close to the airport that's kinda on you.

    However, it sounds like they want you to get too much done in the one day and shoulder either.
    -Make you stay 2 days and put you up somewhere so you're not rushing around.
    -Give you time in lieu for the additional time spent, a standard amount like half a day in leave sounds reasonable to me.

    edit: Check your payslip, 9am-6pm isn't actually legal. How many "ordinary hours" are you doing and how is all this worded in your contract? There are ways employers to get around it but actually mandating an employee works above a 38 hour work week is not okay and fairwork will have a field day.

    • lostn on 11/10/2019 - 23:44

      Check your payslip, 9am-6pm isn't actually legal.

      It's perfectly legal. My work day is 8-5, or 7-4, 6-3. I do get a 1 hour lunch break that isn't paid however. And he probably has the same.

      Doing this, I work 40 hours per week, get paid 38, and every 4 weeks get a day in lieu (32 hour week but paid for 38).

      • knk on 14/10/2019 - 08:57

        That's legal, I did mention there are ways around it above. mandating above 38 ordinary hours isn't.

  • FareEvader on 11/10/2019 - 10:11
    +1

    Unless you get paid overtime or get time in lieu, I don't think it's fair and I think you should speak to your manager.

    I travel interstate for work sometimes and I'll catch a departing flight that lands around 0900 and an arrival flight that lands around 1700. I get $80 food allowance per day and all Uber/Taxi rides covered. Travelling is part of the job, so it should be part of your 38-hours, not more.

    Personally, I'm a big believer in doing your job in the the time that you are paid. I don't bring my work home with me (unless I work from home), I don't work on the train commute in the morning and I try not to stay back in the office unless I really have to. With that said, I do work hard when I am here between 9-5, effectively and efficiently.

    • rb123 on 11/10/2019 - 12:19

      Also spending time on OzBargain? :)

      • FareEvader on 11/10/2019 - 12:23
        +1

        Plenty of that!

      • RocketSwitch on 14/10/2019 - 11:38

        Mental health reasons, not sure humans were built to be robots, work shouldn't treat humans like that.

  • ckria on 11/10/2019 - 10:38

    I used to work in a one of the big brother's departments and if someone was privileged to travel, they would be considered at work the moment they leave home and off work, the moment they arrive back home. I never got that privilege but if my team leader was going, the next day she was on leave cause she had already accumulated enough hours for a day off. Let alone meals, accommodation and travel reimbursements

    • picklewizard on 11/10/2019 - 10:40

      So they accrued TIL in their sleep?

      • Decorot on 11/10/2019 - 10:44

        it's not hard to have a 16h day when you're catching 2 flights same day

        • picklewizard on 11/10/2019 - 10:47

          Not the point I'm making though - he said "they would be considered at work the moment they leave home and off work, the moment they arrive back home."

          I guess he didn't say overnight stay so it makes sense, but honestly mate - as someone who has to do this once a month or so - it's really part of your job.

          The way I see it is that you've got two options - do the bare minimum, refuse to travel, clock on at 9 and walk out the door at 5 and get nowhere, or put in a bit of extra effort here and there and do a bit more to get ahead, and you'll be rewarded. It's all ammo for your review when they ask how you've added value.

          If you feel you're putting in extra and are no better off than the nine to fiver - leave.

          If you get back late, yeah, you're entitled to a bit of a sleep in. If you had to spring for meals and cabs, then you should be reimbursed for these. But as far as being paid for the entire time you're not at home - you're expecting a bit much.

      • ckria on 11/10/2019 - 20:23

        Not the sleep though. If it was an overnight trip, the next day would be a normal day. My point is that the time to get to the airport, air travel time and back all would be considered work hours.

  • profar on 11/10/2019 - 11:05

    I'm not referring to preparing for work I'm referring to doing free hours not on the clock after scheduled finish .

  • Trying2SaveABuck on 11/10/2019 - 11:16

    It is normal, i think it is unfair but they should give a travel allowance

    Also all the flights should be full service flights most companies i know use Virgin with full business lounge access

    If you arent at least getting the basic travel benefits i wouldnt do it for too long

  • sitdowndisco on 11/10/2019 - 11:40

    Sounds like part of the job to me. But I would be seriously considering whether I wanted to work there if there wasn't some perk from the travel such as good meal allowances, FF points, perhaps time off to compensate. Most people would have some sort of flexibility to go home early one day if they'd been busting their hump travelling around the country.

    If you're not getting anything in return for having to travel in your own time, find a new job. Especially because 60k is chicken feed.

    • lostn on 11/10/2019 - 23:46

      Especially because 60k is chicken feed.

      It's just below the median income which is 66k. It's not that bad.

      • endolphin on 12/10/2019 - 18:50

        No, it's pretty bad! The admin girls at work get more than that!

        • lostn on 12/10/2019 - 19:17
          -1

          My parents raised 5 kids with a combined income less than 60k. You can make it work if you use your money wisely.

          It also teaches you money management skills and budgeting.

          • SBOB on 12/10/2019 - 19:29
            +1

            @lostn: 60k today money or 60k then money?

            Assuming 'raised' means over 18, 60k 18 years ago (or more if 5 kids all over 18) is definitely a different living standard than 60k today (plus housing affordability is also much different)

            • lostn on 12/10/2019 - 19:37

              @SBOB: In the money of the time, I would say they had 30k combined.

              You're right about housing affordability though.

              I could live on 60k today easily. Depends on your standard of living. If you want to put your kids through private school, that probably won't happen on 60k.

              If you don't have vices and don't buy luxury cars, you can live comfortably on 60k. If you can't, then I don't know what you're going to do come retirement time. I presume you won't have any savings to accumulate if you consider 60k a bad single income.

              • SBOB on 12/10/2019 - 20:34

                @lostn:

                you can live comfortably on 60k

                that would entirely depend on
                a) location in the country
                b) number of dependants
                c) wish to own a property (having to pay rent after retirement isnt exactly something I would look forward to)

                on 60k household income, with a family, i dont see anyone achieving 'c' on most major areas of the country, which means come retirement you have additional expenses that need to be accounted for

                • lostn on 12/10/2019 - 21:27
                  +2

                  @SBOB: I'm assuming Australia and single with no children, or 120k household income. If 60k is too low paying a job, there's no reason to assume your partner isn't going to work either. If you're going to assume 60k is household, it would mean each of you is getting only 30k.

                  b&c) has far too many variables to make a conversation worth having. You could have 10 children and desire private education and to live in Sydney CBD and no amount would be enough. You could also have 2 children and put them in a state school, and buy a home a reasonable distance from the CBD.

                  Like I said, too many variables to make a short conversation possible. It's a comment section, not a book.

                  Plenty of people earn less than 60k and haven't starved to death, so to say it's impossible to live on it is an exaggeration. Anyone working unskilled jobs (such as retail) will be earning nowhere near that much. And there are plenty of them.

                  The bigger question if you're going to have lots of kids is, what kind of luxuries do you demand and what are you willing to compromise on? You can make it work if you're willing to adjust your standards of living accordingly.

                  If 60k can't put food on the table, you're screwed come retirement, because the cost of living won't go down just because you're retired. But you won't be making 60k anymore. You gotta learn to budget and compromise.

                  on 60k household income, with a family,

                  I did not say 60k 'household' or family. I said that I could live on 60k comfortably. But I don't own a house in the CBD and won't be driving luxury cars or having lots kids and putting them in private schools. If you have a partner and family, it's not fair to assume your income is the sole income. Otherwise you can argue any income is not enough if you add caveats like, but I want 8 children and I have to enroll them in athlete school because they're all going to be pro footballers, and my partner is going to stay at home with no government assistance. You can end any argument if you add enough requirements to it.

                  You can't knock a job's salary by automatically assuming that salary needs to pay for a partner who chooses not to work and you want an expensive house and lots of kids. Not everyone has those needs, and an employer is not going to price every job with those specific needs in mind. It's one person's income. Only your needs can assume to be covered by it. Not everyone household is a single income household. If jobs were priced to be enough to care for 4 people, then if both of you have a job and no kids, you'd have 8 people's needs covered.

                  Everyone has different needs and I don't make universal claims. I'm saying you can't be destitute on 60k unless you don't know how to budget. If you can't afford a house in the city, buy one further away and take the train. Or rent. It's what everyone else had to do that couldn't afford one. I never claimed you could live in a mansion and drive a Bentley on 60k.

                  • SBOB on 12/10/2019 - 23:02

                    @lostn: Your original post was "My parents raised 5 kids with a combined income less than 60k"

                    But whatever, you've taken it clearly in a pretty wild tangent from that

                    I was more pointing out your premise of your parents example using whatever salary you think they earnt at the time compared to today's cost of living.

                    Can't be bothered decoding the rest of that essay

                  • RocketSwitch on 14/10/2019 - 11:43

                    @lostn: Didn't you know, everyone is earning $100K now lol, that's the new $50K!

              • scheps on 13/10/2019 - 09:00

                @lostn: If you are true oz bargainer 60k is plenty

  • field1985 on 11/10/2019 - 12:13
    +4

    I used to fly (Syd-Melb) every week. It would vary, but generally if I started early (like 5am) I would knock-off early (3pm).

    If I had to work a bunch of overtime (due to business requirements), they would always give me a day in lieu.

    At first the company would rent a car for me when I was travelling. But after negotiating, they agreed to pay me the same amount ($80 per day) even if I used my own car. They also paid all fuel costs.

    Then I got an $80 allowance for food and all my accommodation was paid by the company.

    It was not a skilled job (asset mapping). You didn't need any degree or formal qualifications, but it still paid ~$70k.

    So I was receiving $160 per day (tax free), before I started work, then I would earn another $200 (taxable) working.

    This also had countless tax benefits because I was travelling for work.

    It was not "high paying" but I was definitely reimbursed for the trouble. It sounds like OP is being screwed.

  • 2ndeffort on 11/10/2019 - 14:17
    +1

    Got home from Sydney at 9:30 last night, working from home today!

  • pformag on 11/10/2019 - 14:23
    -5

    Has a job, complains about waking up early. Welcome to Australia.

  • Nutrino on 11/10/2019 - 15:02
    +1

    I spend 2 hours traveling to work, 4 hours round trip everyday, i think its really unfair, my employer taking me for a ride. Should i start a new thread?.

    • field1985 on 11/10/2019 - 16:49
      +2

      Travel to work doesn't count (because you are choosing to live 2 hours away), only travel for work should be compensated (because it is within work hours and you don't get a choice where you are deployed).

      • dufflover on 13/10/2019 - 14:16

        I think you missed the TIC part.
        That's how I interpreted the comment anyway.

    • UNO on 11/10/2019 - 19:28

      Can you move closer to work?

    • outlander on 13/10/2019 - 11:03

      Depends. I'm guessing you did the math, and decided that buying a house far away and commuting in would save you money in the long run.
      2 hours a day there and back at $30 per hour full time would be $30K per year. If you saved $300K by buying a house in the bush instead of the city, thats a good ten years. Essentially its time your paying yourself for.

  • DingoBilly on 11/10/2019 - 15:17

    When I travelled for work roughly on the same schedule I received pay from the moment I left until the moment I came home. Also came with daily spending allowance and incidentals.

    Sounds like this is not a common thing but I suppose that means it's all just up to negotiation and what you want to put up with. After working a job like mine I wouldn't give up my free time like you are unless I was getting paid $150k+. I think you need to negotiate with your boss and figure out a better solution.

  • arrowroot on 11/10/2019 - 16:16

    Hi

    Firstly - my little reflection is at all work is a trade off. A super high paying job with very comfortable working hours and conditions is rare and probably doesn't exist.

    I don't think you can describe the situation you are in as 'abuse', particularly if it is a (contracted) expectation of the job. Once a month doesn't sound too bad though…

    I flew for close to 2 years - minimum weekly with frequent overnight trips. Like others, mostly long day trips (7am flight out, 530pm flight back). No allowances for the day trips but to be fair I am remunerated well as a contractor.

    I stopped the travel partly due to 1) raising minimising travel as a contract condition, 2) we had our second child and at that stage started to discuss with those in power to slow down on the travel and take on local jobs.

    I'd suggest you start to broach this with your employer and if it all possible put your hand up for the work that does not require travel. Until then - in perspective it is a 5% of your work (1 day per month) and you love your job - so kudos to you for that.

  • Mallard on 11/10/2019 - 16:38

    OP, it would help to understand what sort of salary range you are in and how old you are. I've travelled a lot for work but was getting paid good money.

    My view on fairness would change depending on salary in particular, but also on where you are on the career ladder.

  • trev likes bargains on 11/10/2019 - 17:11

    It's not bad. Try and get time off in lieu if you like.

    I used to fly on Sunday arvo for work. 4pm flight from memory.

    Usually travel time to and from work is not considered work.

    You can also try and negotiate to leave work early when you are travelling

  • GourmetFoodie on 11/10/2019 - 19:42

    It's give and take when it comes to things like this and depends on the role, how much you are paid, how much you enjoy your job and want to get promoted etc etc. Ultimately only you can make the call as it's highly subjective. If it's not working for you, you need to change it.

    Personally I've had to do many 6am flights in my career and been home on 7pm or later flights. Worked weekends. After hours. Etc. That being said, I got paid relatively well and no one objected to the times where I would choose the "chairmans flight" (7-30am) and leave the office by 4-30pm or 5 for a 6/6-30pm flight.

  • [Deactivated] on 11/10/2019 - 20:40

    Do you get time-in-lieu for the extra hours you've put in? Have you ever asked for it or asked if you can come in a bit later the next day?

    I don't get time-in-lieu if travelling interstate but instead get put up somewhere close to the airport for the night. I've rarely taken that offer because I much rather spend that time with my family and explain to my kids why they won't see me for breakie. If I'm travelling overseas I get time-in-lieu , which varies between 2 hrs for most of APAC and 1 day for Europe or US.

  • hakkenuh on 11/10/2019 - 20:56

    yeah it sucks but that's the corporate world I'm afraid - if you don't want to get up at 4, maybe see if you could fly the night before or work flexibly i.e on the plane or at the airport/home. On the unpaid overtime part - I work probably up to 70 hours a week during busy season at work and only contracted to work 37.5, sad life :( the policy at work is basically if you don't like it then leave, which is sort of what I'd suggest to you, no point fighting it cause they will just find someone else to replace you.

  • lainey13 on 11/10/2019 - 21:33

    You need to get a new job. The fact that someone can pay you so little on a working visa means you're basically undervaluing your job for everyone else in Australia doing the same thing! When employers can get away with it, Australians who could use that job suffer.

    • RocketSwitch on 14/10/2019 - 11:46

      Should be regulated by the government, hence why companies get away with it

  • bnk on 11/10/2019 - 22:18

    It's normal for a small business to expect way, way more of an employee…
    Work for a big company and everything is paid for, well at least in my experience. Travel time, accommodation all and any meals(This also depends on the "big" company)

    There is more give than take in a small company, it depends how much you "love" the job.

  • lostn on 11/10/2019 - 23:39

    Are you on a salary? If so, you can expect to do unpaid overtime.

  • Dsquall on 12/10/2019 - 04:00

    I do sorta FIFO stuff at the moment with the government.

    It's pretty atrocious, they will only pay for my initial flight out here and expect me to either stay for 3 months or buy my own tickets back home every fortnight (which I do). My daily allowance is 60 dollars roughly and I don't even get a car, this is with a 6 figure base salary.

    It's all dependent on your position and your bargaining power. If you're pretty junior and need the job, much like me, you can't really complain.

  • [Deactivated] on 12/10/2019 - 08:57

    Anytime before 6am maybe considered as hours that demand higher rates for most jobs. Its a grey area though!

  • DiscoJango on 12/10/2019 - 10:30
    -2

    Fair? Welcome to the real world. End of the day, you need to be "at the office", regardless if thats in another state, at the start of the day (8:30). You cant rock up at midday. Sorry thats just how the "real world" is, weather its fair or not.

    And yes, if its a day trip, you will get back at 10 or 11pm and then still be expected to be in your local office the next morning at 8:30am regardless how much lack of sleep you got the day before.

    You cant change the system, however you can change your job. Take it or leave it.

    • RocketSwitch on 14/10/2019 - 11:47
      +1

      real world is a fraud, system is corrupt… but people need money to survive, so can't go all Avengers yet

  • [Deactivated] on 12/10/2019 - 11:24
    +1

    I work 9am-6pm, if i do overtime it's unpaid

    How much unpaid overtime ? And are you on hourly rate ?

    I love my job but don't know how to approach this, or if i should just accept it as it's normal?

    There is too much we don't know here, regarding your specific situation and your specific arrangement.
    But 1 thing worth considering IMO, is that if they are a great boss, nice person, and you love the job, be careful you don't burn yourself here.
    It is quite likely (tho we don't have that information) , that your employer in the 'small bussiness' they could be paying you more than they have to, in other circumstances.
    E.g.. If you sometimes work 5 or 10 minutes overtime free, well may be other times the boss is overpaying you too, maybe they don't dock your pay when you are 5-10 minutes late.
    Or they might give xmas bonus, or be paying you more than what they need to as the hourly rate.

    As an employer, if I am treating someone really well overall, doing more than I have to really… Well if that employee then were to start hassling me over relatively minor things, like telling me I have to pay overtime on very short periods, even though I am nice to them and often allow them to finish early (and still get paid) . I would mostly likely fire them ASAP .

    It could create a hostility in this job you say you love.
    But without all of the details, it is near impossible to know whether you are getting a good, or bad , or "normal" , deal overall.
    If you like your job so much though, well your boss is probably nice to you and doing the right thing.

    Years ago when I was getting sub-minimum wage in a contract cleaning hotel job, they made me do lots of overtime for nothing, and I spoke up about it.

    But if that same employer had been paying me a few $$ an hour over what they have to pay, well it would all balance out in my favour.
    And my boss was horrible also, if they were nice I would have been less annoyed by unpaid overtime. My circumstance was completely illegal and against fair work laws, the boss was literally Ponting out about 40 minutes of work to do, but then telling me sign off still in 10 minutes.
    You're employer obviously isn't an ahol like my hotel cleaning boss.

  • koplik8 on 12/10/2019 - 13:31

    I did Rep work for a long time. They use to put us on red eye flights from Darwin (leaving 1am or 2am) down south then expect us to work all day. In the end I put my foot down. The company wanted us on the cheapest flights they could find. It's not good for your health not getting proper night sleeps. In the end I ask why I should be flying in my own personal time when it is for work. I only flew within business hours. If the flight wasn't available then I would fly in the day before and get an extra night in the hotel. Flying all the time is a novelty at first. In the end I was sick of it. Great to clock up the frequent flyer points (make sure your claiming them).
    The other ones I use to do is only filling your company car with petrol and washing it during business hours. Why should I waste my personal time.

  • ihbh on 12/10/2019 - 15:11

    Think of it as an investment. My first work trip was an anomaly (biz class to Chicago), but second was earlish start and long day.

    Later on I got a corporate Amex, Gold status, lounge access, and was able to travel on my terms (e.g. partner stayed in hotel so we could explore on weekend), … but only after I paid my dues.

    • gimme on 12/10/2019 - 16:11

      Did you travel to St Charles?

      • ihbh on 12/10/2019 - 17:15

        No, Schaumburg.

      • Kenb0 on 12/10/2019 - 17:18

        Sounds like a St Charles trip to me… Amazing luck to get business class on that trip, but not unheard of. About 5 from my start group got lucky like that too, unfortunately I wasn't one of the 5!

  • [Deactivated] on 12/10/2019 - 16:19

    The caps for food allowance, incidentals, etc are determined by ATO and is salary/location-dependent. However, it is common for companies not to give allowance but to reimburse employees for actual costs. It must be an acceptable practice as I have seen major organisations do this. I think it all comes back to what you signed in your contract, so the ATO specs must be a guide only.

    Hours for travel could be part of your job description too. Does your contract say you must travel? I used to do it a lot and got paid only for my fare to the airport and back + flight cost of course.

  • Nanokillaz on 12/10/2019 - 16:44

    I'm curious what a good salary is before people are willing to work longer hours. Based on these comments, it seems most people work 9-5 which is pretty rare in a professional role such as a lawyer/accountant. Lawyers/accountants work long hours but aren't paid great unless they get promoted to higher positions and the only way to get promoted is putting in longer hours of quality work (not just physically being at work).

    • RocketSwitch on 14/10/2019 - 11:50

      I think it works like this, average pay for your job + hours worked = salary you should be on. In terms of OT, 1 or 2 hours more uncommonly is okay, anything more then there's an issue re with pay for hours worked.

      Ideal world is above average pay for your job + hours worked + OT paid = happy

  • netsurfer on 12/10/2019 - 16:54

    It's normal (I've done it before for nearly 2 years). The cost is actually paid by the client at the end of the day. After I worked for the same client for a long period of time, I asked the company I worked for at the time to see if the company would allow me to fly Sunday evenings and pay for 1 extra night of accommodation (so I fly Sunday nights). The company agreed (but I found out from the client that it was the client actually funding the extra travel cost) though Sunday night flights are cheaper. Some of my colleagues opted to fly back and forth every 2 weeks (but that means stays 50% of the weekends away from home state).

    I'm guessing you might be the only staff in your company travelling to that client. For me, initially, about 4-5 staff traveled every week. Not only the Monday flights were annoying. The Friday evening flights were not that great either. You often have to wait for the last colleague to get his/her bags.

    The early Monday morning flights and the Friday evening flights are actually quite expensive. A lot of people travel for business. Those flights are quite expensive. The company had no choice but to book you on those expensive flights.

    As for working long hours while away from home, it is pretty normal. Honestly, the client is paying for the flights and accommodation + your salary + your company's commission. It's up to you. Doing good work, having good relationship with the client means the client will continue to ask for your back. If you really want to stop the travelling, then you might want to hint it to the client so the client could request another staff from your company.

  • heal on 12/10/2019 - 16:59

    There were a few comments about not being able to claim expenses as the amount shows up in your group certificate. My company pays a travel allowance. There is no separate mount on the group certificate, so I'm thinking that I can claim my meals and accommodation. I'd be interested to know whether others think that I can as well.

    I've also heard of incidentals. I think that's included in my allowance, which is around $250 per day. Can you claim incidentals as a tax deduction.

    I usually stay in an Airbnb with a colleague. Last one cost under $80 each per night. We are like king's, spending about $90 per day on food. With a couple of extra meal claims put in, we made about $320 for 3 nights away.

    • netsurfer on 12/10/2019 - 17:15

      Used to work for a small company when I had to travel every week. The company did allow travel expenses and we had to pay for the service apartment charges first then claimed back when doing the expense claims. So we got credit card reward points.

      Also, regular flights means frequent flyer points. Definitely can reach gold status so Qantas will treat you better (got quite a few free upgrades to business class). Was able to buy cheapest tickets for personal travel and all flight change admin fees were waived. Qantas give better seats to higher class members so cheap tickets and good seats.

      Despite all the perks, it's still a pain to wake up at 4-5 AM Monday mornings. Bad weather could mean you are stuck at the airport for 2+ hours.

    • PAPower on 13/10/2019 - 18:23

      Bro, $90 for a day worth of food isn't a king!
      What country is this king ruling?

  • gimme on 12/10/2019 - 19:01
    +1

    I'm just glad I have a well paid job. Periodic inconveniences don't bother me. I typically look at the bigger picture and try to put it in perspective. If I decide that in the balance of things I'm not happy with the tradeoffs, I'll look for another job and see my real worth on the open market. Have had that attitude forever and doing very well. No mental health challenges and a happy life.

    • RocketSwitch on 14/10/2019 - 11:53

      That's ideal, do you love our job?

      The problem is, people don't look for another job without raising red flags in a tight team, and the risk of being unemployed for 3-6 months minimum, might be too much for some.

      • gimme on 14/10/2019 - 16:09

        Not really… It's just a job and I was also speaking hypothetically to make a point of no entitlement. And yes I agree looking for another job can be frought. But I'm under no illusion that anybody owes me anything.

  • Erkel on 12/10/2019 - 20:03

    $40 a day for food is really low OP, I think you might be taken for a ride there. I get reimbursed up to $200 a day from my company.

    Also waking up at 4AM for a 7AM flight is stretching it a bit. Minus the one hour travel time which cannot be avoided, I think you can be just fine waking up at 5AM for the flight.

    I guess I'm one of the more lucky ones, I travel for work at least twice a month. Although I start work at 5AM so my flights are always booked in the afternoon/morning the day before so at least I can get some shut eye first.

    I don't get paid for time spent travelling to/from airport either, but my company will hire Uber to take me between home and airport and cover all car hire and hotel costs at my flight destination.

  • John678 on 12/10/2019 - 23:09
    -3

    You’re lucky to have a job with that attitude.

    • MilkDrinker on 13/10/2019 - 01:21
      +1

      Uh oh OPs boss has found the thread. DENY EVERYTHING!

    • RocketSwitch on 14/10/2019 - 11:54
      +1

      People with your attitude is the reason people everywhere else have problems with work.

  • MayhemVC on 12/10/2019 - 23:43
    +1

    This used to happen to me. Was working for a small family company and used to fly BNE to SYD and get booked on the first flight out of the morning.
    I honestly found it was easier to just take a half day off the next day without permission. What are they going to do? Fire you because you need to take a break from working a 20 hour day? I'd love to see them try.
    Do yourself a favour and log your travel times and dates, that way if the proverbial hits the fan its not just you word vs. theirs. Also have your flights added to your work calendar and take copies/screenshots each month (showing dates and times of flights).
    Small companies will keep doing this because employees keep allowing it. The terms of your employment are an agreement, by both parties. Its 50:50.
    Another thing I used to do, deliberately, was fall asleep during client meetings in days that I was required to start at 4:30AM. I made my point pretty quickly.
    Ultimately they started flying me the afternoon the day before and putting me up at a hotel. The additional expense meant that they had to determine if it was REALLY necessary that I travel.
    Also $40 a day is WAY to low especially if, based on your hours, you are needing to buy breakfast, lunch and dinner. Should be at least $80. You should NEVER be out of pocket because you are travelling for THEIR company.

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