So, today I woke up to the news of four innocent kids passing away in Sydney due to one perons's drink driving. May their souls rest in peace. I believe one of the big reasons behind this is weak judicial rulings. These judges give stricter punishments for downloading pirated stuff but much weaker punishments for traffic offences, drug / alcohol possession charges, sexual assaults etc.
Do you think there should be much more severe punishments for these as well?
When was the last time someone got done for download piracy?
This guy has to live with the fact he killed 4 kids.
That's going to stay with him for the rest of his life. I don't think any form of punishment is going to top that, whatever he gets.
that's assuming he cares. his conscience isn't gonna punish him much
The bloke didn't care when he was smashing those Beer cans down, why would he care now?
Did he magically think driving the Ute after being 3 times over the limit is going to be a walk in the park?
I'd say most people would care. You can't equate one unbelievably bad choice with another. Yes, some people are pure evil, however I'd like to believe it's the tiniest percentage.
I don't know where he was drinking but it's illegal to serve someone alcohol when that person is drunk. There'd be a lot less drunk driving if the responsible serving of alcohol was actually practised.
When some people are drinking they forget how many they've had, and can't really tell how drunk they are, they actually need someone to tell them, or stop them from driving.
I'd say most people would care. You can't equate one unbelievably bad choice with another
It's not a bad choice, a bad choice is something you do once and you learn form. This guy clearly has a drinking issue and given he was driving 3 times over, high chances he's been doing it every time.
When some people are drinking they forget how many they've had, and can't really tell how drunk they are, they actually need someone to tell them, or stop them from driving
After the 1st beer, everyone has a choice - continue and cloud thinking, stop because im going to drive. He chose the former, no defence for this piece of garbage. these kids never got a chance to enjoy life.
Seriously? The worst form of punishment is a guilty conscience? I can conjure a thousand ways which suit him more than a nagging voice.
"Hey, remember that time you killed four kids cos you weren't raised with hindsight, self-control or common sense? Don't worry, our society is always there to pay for your rehab."
He probably gives f'all about the fact that he ran over kids.
Revenue for big companies and the government is more important than lives and human suffering…. Hence the relatively large punishments for tax return errors and pirating. There's money to be made from these punishments… However it costs money to punish crimes against people
Driving ban for life on the offender
One day all vehicles on the road will have AI/safety features that stop accidents like these. Road and pedestrian fatalities will become something quite rare.
If we're talking death rate, it's already quite rare to die from such a thing. Injuries and ongoing injuries are another thing altogether of course.
we threw him into jail at the cost of our own tax money he stopped contributing financially to the society, after a while the law turns him out, he might choose to go back to normal life or he might give up and live the rest of the life sucking on centrelink, there's a chance he might do it again or something else not very nice…
or we can feed him to wild animals, hold a live feeding show at Taronga zoo, let people vote which animals will be at him and monetize the shiiit out of it, use the money to donate to the victim family (and the family will have free entry of course)…
or we can harvest his organs…
or we can hang him live, again in a capitalist way…
just some ideas I'll let you guys carry on, have a nice Monday
Yeah let's go back to the stone ages, but then you wouldn't have the internet and be allowed to post this utter nonsense.
I'd be careful conflating the rise of technology with particular societal ideologies - plenty of advancements were made during war time and for plenty of things I'm sure you'd disagree with
At bare minimum he should be charged with 4 counts of manslaughter. Should be at least 10-15 years in jail
There should be a Zero BAC limit in Australia. It definitely wouldnt stop every case of drink driving, but it would weed out a lot of people whove literally had one drink too many to put them over the limit and thought "she'll be right" from getting in the car and driving home.
But there are so many good options for getting home if you live in a capital city these days - Uber, Trains, Buses. And if they arent suitable, then you should make some kind of alternative arrangement to go out drinking or getting places if you're drunk.
Im not sure if punishments should actually be higher. By the sounds of it, this offender is being charged with multiple cases of manslaughter in addition to a bunch of driving charges. It would be suprising if he got less than 20 years for this offence, but of course the case could be argued for a longer sentence.
I think making punishments bigger isnt always the best option, but having a much lower bar for being punish like a Zero BAC limit would help reduce drink driving in the first place.
Yes, let's punish all those responsible people who have a glass of wine with dinner or ate a tiramisu for dessert because I guy drank 12 beers before getting behind the wheel.
Don't tell me tiramisu has alcohol?!
Don't tell me tiramisu has alcohol?!
It depends on who is making it. It's common to add Marsala or some other alcoholic beverage when making Tiramisu.
I would not expect cheap mass produced tiramisu from a supermarket to contain alcohol. If I was eating tiramisu in a decent restaurant or a home made tiramisu that it would probably contain alcohol.
I agree with sandman: we need to completely dissociate alcohol from driving.
Thinking of having a drink? Arrange for alternative transport.
Takes away all the nonsense of "oh, I thought I'm under the limit" or "I feel fine" or any million other excuses people use when caught drink driving.
I understand that point of view. I like having wine with a meal or eating something like tiramisu, but if it means that we have less people in society who think that "yeah ill be right" and if that leads to less people being injured or killed, thats a small price to pay. Its not as if drinking or eating is being banned. You can still have a designated driver, uber, walk, train, stay the night, etc.
last i heard 3 died, the 4th which was a cousin in intensive care, did they pass as well..? :( RIP. The dad was really in shock he lost 3 kids in a single moment
4 kids died at the scene, one of them the cousin. also one in intensive care that was a sibling of the 3 that passed away.
ozbargain doesnt understand gaol. its not punishment, its supposed to be removing risk from society.
currently it is about profits.
Should get stoned to death rather than a jail sentence. Cheaper for tax payers
depends on what kind of stone they use, it we are talking marble, its cheaper to hang him
I'd probably go with normal house bricks
those aint cheap man, its like 1.50 to 4 dollar if you go with boral
this is how i see it, if it was up to me id hand him down the death penalty by hanging or lethal injection.
but it aint up to me, so i'd like to see a life imprisonment sentence, its the least the law can do..
imagine it happening to you really think about it, and when you do, you will realize a life sentence really sounds justified.
Because drinking is so ingrained into the Australian culture nothing will change. People in Australia boast how drunk they get like it is something to be proud of.
When people starting boasting about drinking alcohol from a shoe, you know we (profanity) up.
We have life sentences for murder yet people still do it. The USA hands out the death penalty in some states yet murder still exists there too. No matter how severe the penalty is, you can't fight these two factors:
Murder doesn't only exist there it's very high compared to Australia and the US has the highest incarceration rate per capita in the world.
@cluster so you saying they should walk free? there is a reaction for every action, the the action here is the manslaughter of 4 innocent minors. are you saying there should not be a reaction to this because people will still continue to drink and drive?
I think the passenger should also be punished. There was his friend in the car that would have known he was drinking, 0.150, you would be able to smell it… It's not only the drivers fault, it is also that of the passenger too.
Just spoke to a colleague who knows the family of one of the girls who passed, and the parent said that the driver and his associate were giving pedestrians the birdie, and yelling profanity until they lost control of the car. They then crashed into the 7 kids, and dragged them for many metres such that limbs were strewn across the road. My colleague's friend is going tomorrow to identify her child's body (3 days from the crash date).
As a parent of a toddler, I cannot fathom the turmoil this has brought to countless families and communities. Those in OzBargain who think lightly of this issue are severely disconnected from the reality that now haunts the victims' families. The reality being, their angels have been taken away from them too soon, too brutally. Remorse (just like thoughts and prayers) do jackshyt for the victims, and only make the perpetrator feel better about themselves.
Just like the driver who was on drugs and ran over the kid in Hurstville a few months back, these a$$holes have no regard for others or the law. Yes there's a chance this person may 'live with regret' for the rest of his life. Or, there's an equally fat chance that they don't care, have a heart of stone, and welcome the luxuries of our fine jails. To me, these people will never change.
Give them a lifetime of community services to the Oatlands/Parramatta region. Or (Highly controversial) deport these sick bastards to a remote island, and let them 'regret' all they want with each other.
Sounds like it could be murder then. Not that I've driven drunk before, but I think I'd know to stay off the footpath even at 0.15 BAC.
In my opinion there are already strict punishments in place for this. Focus should be campaigning on the social acceptance of drink driving, as other countries did where this was a problem in the 80s/90s (UK, Ireland etc).
The state's approach to every problem seems to be fines etc. The ceiling for that impact is low.
Well I can say one thing with certainty. I'm glad mozt Ozbargainers don't determine any aspect of the law.
Were you also surprised when Trump got elected? What do you think the law is in a democracy if not a culmination of the stew of opinions in society - or do you think ozbargainers aren't representative at all?
What? Where did you pull the Trump thing out of? Nevermind. I can guess.
But based on that comment I can guess 2 things you don't seem to understand:
1. The difference between democracy and a mob.
2. How true something is will not be affected by how popular it is. This is why education of everyone becomes so important in a democracy.
Clearly this guy made a huge mistake: He didn't become a "health and fitness expert entrepeneur and author". There are no artistic studio shots of him looking up in black and white with his head breaking out of grey clouds. Had he done so people would be asking for him to be released on compassionate grounds because he's had it so tough lately.
Update article from SMH: mother of 3 of the children forgives driver…
Can't say I'll be able to do the same, but some people are truly incredible. I suppose they understand that hatred will only make everything harder…
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/i-can-t-hate-him-mother-…
They did what Jesus would have done.
Typical of a Maronite Catholic Lebanese person.
How about banning alcohol?
Because that has worked so well in the past, and has worked so well with drugs? Do you know any history?
How about some stricter penalties for once?
https://www.budgetdirect.com.sg/blog/car-insurance/penalties…
https://www.police.wa.gov.au/Traffic/Offences/Drink-driving/…
There will always be idiots who'll drink and drive but at least, with harsher penalties and public education, it might slowly change the behavior of some of these idiots…
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/fewer-dr…
Australia has a cultural drinking problem that is political suicide to address. The Sydney lockout laws are a case in point. I'm a bigger fan of prevention but that's not as sexy as appearing to come down hard on offenders - addressing the factors that cause these problems in the first place is complex and are usually unpopular when you try to address them. How dare some latte-sipping academic tell us larrikin fun loving Aussies we can't drink and drive! It's our right isn't it! The 'she'll be right mate' attitude is just a cover for bad behaviour these days, so much of what we say and do in this country is a cover for bad behaviour. Ten bucks this was the sort of guy who would hurl drunken abuse out the window and god forbid if anyone got upset about it, he'd get all wounded and say he was 'just joking'.
I don't know what sort of studies have been done into the factors that cause accidents like this though I'd like to read them. Alcohol would obviously be one, not really sure of the others. What are the factors that make someone think it's okay to behave like this? What has happened in this young mans life to cause him to behave with such incredible disregard for his fellow humans? And in all of these cases? Even if he was going through a hard time, what makes him think it is okay to push his hard time onto strangers who have done him no harm and meant him no ill will?
The lockout laws decreased crime by killing Sydney nightlife stone dead. How about instead of locking people out, you just stop serving liquor at 2am?
Most people have gotten past wanting to drink and drive, and accept the laws. But preventing most drivers from drink driving won't stop the outliers from killing people.
It's not an easy problem to crack.
It didn't just decrease crime, it decreased violence, injury, death, and the load on local emergency departments, saving the health system a lot of money. Stopping serving alcohol at 2am doesn't stop people from being blind drunk and violent at 2am.
So stop serving it at midnight, or earlier.
They killed off entertainment in Sydney. I was never a clubber but the fact that Sydney went from being a good place to watch live music to DEAD and irrelevant as a world class city seems lost on you.
If you ignore the impact you could also further improve violence, injury and death rates and improve pressure on local emergency departments by imposing curfews, banning private ownership of cars, banning concerts and live performances all together. How far is too far?
Now if only we could do the same for all crimes.
While we're at it if we could make sure everyone gets the same grade of legal representation that would be great.
Australia needs to wake up and realize it has a serious addiction problem with alcohol.
Most Australians do not drink and drive. We do tend to have issues with attitudes to and consumption of alcohol, and they should be addressed, but I'd bet this guy was going to be prone to it without the cultural issues.
I also note that it's gotten somewhat better. 10 years ago the alcohol flowed at work Christmas parties and team lunches. These days there is little or often none.
There was recently a horrific accident in which 4 children were killed by a drunk driver and others injured. I'm not sure what can be done to further discourage this type of behaviour.
I'm concerned the driver responsible will get a lenient sentence. No justice can truly match the loss.
As strange as it may seem, sometimes I feel an equal punishment would discourage criminal behaviour.
doe not sound strange, run him over 4 times like said earlier, if only it could be done here in aus with their shitty 'criminal' defending laws. hell you cant beat up an home intruder or you will be sued, i mean thats how f@#ked we are..
my 2 cents
in an asian country (i won't name it but its a pretty big one) you get 2 weeks on the spot jail for drink driving.
now, try explaining to your boss, friends, family, other social commitments, etc where you disappeared to for 2 weeks, and the issues caused, and it may be enough of a deterrent to ever doing it again.
disclaimer: obviously ymmv, but for the most part, i think everyone would have something that for 2 weeks they would be inconvenienced by being in jail for 2 weeks
Didn't stop this drunk driver i) son of a former policeman ii) allegedly has a string of traffic offences
i'm waiting for a name
Stricter punishments don't work. I think we have to change our culture around drinking, but I can't see Australia accepting such a change.
As far as addictions go, that's a health issue. People should not ever be in jail for taking drugs.
Causing four deaths? I have no idea. I can't image how you would go on after that.
Changing our culture also won't change the occasional horrific accident after an addict makes poor choices. It may decrease the incidents though. It's definitely worth doing.
I don't think drinking culture is the problem.
Problem is a culture where some people think it's fine to drink and drive.
The problem is relying someone who had a drink to make a judgement if he/she is below the limit for driving a vehicle.
Having Zero alcohol limit will to some degree resolve this issue. Obviously, some idiots who still drink and drive.
I'd rather replicate a legal system that has low recidivism and crime rate. Than your perspective for retribution and perceived justice based on harshness. Very arrogant to think your way to increased sentencing will solve anything other than increase national debt and crowd prisons.
We have a culture problem.
Drinking is deemed by many communities as "cool", "masculine", and its appearance is required to maintain friendships in various circles.
Regarding the drinking problem…. It seems to be a Western thing to pick a fight and bash people when you are drunk and I saw it a lot more in the UK than here in Australia….. But hell, Asian people like to drink as well…. But don't seem to have this urge for violence after…. So why do westerners?
100% agree. So sick of people getting away with a relative slap on the wrist
It's very sad, because no matter what, there are no winners in a situation like this. No level of punishment will bring back the lives lost. Would a 0% BAC limit have prevented this? Maybe, maybe not. People are going to make bad decisions no matter what. I do however think a level of punishment befitting the crime is warranted, to at least give the victims family some feeling that justice has been served. Personally I would feel 10 to 15 years non-parole as a minimum might be in the right direction, though as others have mentioned the offender will likely 6. 1.5 years for each life taken is hardly justice, is it?
If this guy get capital punishment. The following day every single citizen of Australia who thinks they will get behind a wheel after just a one drink will be pissing their pants.
totally agree, we should follow China's footsteps and bring back capital punishment.
drug traffickers get executed all the time in asia. still happens
Sadly won't happen in Australia (well, not until China completes its takeover, anyway). But I agree, it's probably about the only thing that would actually help.
If the risk of killing other people and ruining your own life plus the lives of many others isn't enough deterrent, what are 'stricter punishments' going to do?
That said, I fully support people like this or even those convicted of less serious driving charges with the potential to cause serious harm never, ever being allowed to drive again (once he gets out of prison).
If his life is already in the toilet after doing time, do you think he's more or less likely to care about driving without a license?
OP go read a sentencing hearing them come back. It'll make you realise a lot goes into it. Ignore the media they want you butthurt for as revenue
bring back capital punishment but too many left wing hippies oppose it
Nah, hippies love a good hanging as much as anyone else.
It's the Christians and moral crusaders. Gosh some of this ilk won't even support a woman choosing to have an abortion
People of Christian faith literally believe god killed 99% of the worlds population via a flood because people where sinning to much…why would they be against capital punishment?
Lol, God killing people vs people killing people isn't the same thing.
I'm Christian and not opposed to capital punishment for certain things. I think it's unjust to let someone who has killed several people to live out his life.
If the government doesn't allow capital punishment, it doesn't really bother me. It's not the most important issue.
@ozhunter: @ozhunter
I'm Christian and not opposed to capital punishment
I really would have thought that Christianity and capital punishment would be two totally diametric concepts.
For Christians to proclaim their boundless love for just-fertilized eggs, for example, (let alone the love for their oft-quoted 'fellow man') there must be a massive cognitive dissonance to then support state-sanctioned execution.
I wonder if this really represents mainstream Christian thought (it certainly appears to do so for some other religions who worship at an altar of vengeance and retribution); or whether it is just an example of the paucity, hypocrisy and bankruptcy of Christianity itself as a philosophy?
@Roman Sandstorm: It's baffling that you can't understand that Christians would like to protect the innocent(ie unborn child) and yet also be just when it comes to murderers.
0.00 BAC limit?
Implemented in other countries with a high drinking culture and incident rate (e.g. Czech Rep and Slovakia)
What happened to the past offenders of similar nature? We will never hear. These kind of offenders need something harsh that they will never have the balls to do anything like this ever. Aussies are P*****S when it comes to punishment. Only thing they care about is revenue and hitting the monthly targets on traffic offense.
Take for instance, the NZ mosque shooting guy has been well looked after in some prison. He says he is not guilty and he also has demanded that he needs entertainment and food and other amnesties. He probably has a better life there than some random kids on the street going to buy some ice cream. These people deserve capital punishment.
The passenger should also be charged, he was at that party, he knew his mate was drinking and he didn't stop his mate from driving he just hopped straight into the car with him. Yes he may have been drinking also but it makes him equally responsible for the tragic accident that killed 3 siblings and their cousin. There need to a penalty for his passenger! Involuntary manslaughter maybe??
abolish cars and driving to every single person and you will probably see reduced deaths
only car related ones
People will die from stampedes trying to get on and off trains
Probably already been stated but…the data, the world over, indicates that harsher punishments do not act as an effective deterrent to crime, and are more expensive and less effective at preventing recidivism.
Punishment is only one factor taken into consideration when sentencing occurs and while it may feel good to bay for blood, harsh retribution is not the best thing for anyone.
Deprivation of liberty is already a harsh punishment.
Lol. Harsher punishments only work to a certain point.
Even if we do increase the penalties tomorrow, these drunk drivers aren't going to go:
Hmmm, if I drink drive and do happen to run over some kids, I'll get 25 years instead of 14.
You know what, 14 years I would've been okay with, but 25 years is too much.
I'm not driving today!
They never think that these things will happen, and that's why they happen. People don't often think about the potential consequences either
Perhaps what's needed is Sharia law for Australia. Islamic countires are highly moral (for instance, less than 1% of children born are illegitimate bastards).
So please explain why having children out of wedlock is immoral?
Or did you forget the /s? It's really hard to tell because some idiots really helped themselves to the Kool aid.
I think society generally agrees that morality is subjective
So please explain why having children out of wedlock is immoral?
That just depends on where you get your morality from.
So please explain why having children out of wedlock is immoral?
Because having sex out of marriage is a major sin and will condemn you to hellfire according to the Sharia.
According to sharia it's alright to have 4 wives too!
Bring on sharia!
@CMH: Actually, it's permissible to have 4 wives but if you can't do justice, marry only one. Back in the old days, a lot of Muslim men from the holy lands married more thanm one woman to give them shelter and security.
In the West, mistresses are more common.
That's just so wrong it's embarassing.
As far as I know, noone in Australia has ever been punished for 'downloading pirated stuff'
He should be executed. Period.
stricter punishment isn't going to change much, crimes like these will always be part of our society. whether that be alcohol fuelled violence or drug induced rage.
Australia's dinking culture is the problem.