Civil Engineer Award (Minimum Work Hours)

themadman on 20/05/2020 - 16:17
Last edited 21/05/2020 - 11:30 by 1 other user

I've just had a discussion with my boss regarding work hours and he's told me that I've done 30 minutes less every day than I'm meant to. I've been doing 8 hr days including a 30 minute lunch break (works out to around 38hr weeks). I'm on a yearly salary and am a full time employee.

He has claimed that there's no award for engineers, however I've found this Professional Employees Award which appears to cover engineers (I graduated just under 3 years ago, so probably fall into the Graduate Engineer category).

What I want to know is if I've been in the wrong all this time or what. I've re-read my contract, which states "Standard work week consists of a minimum 40 hours, Monday to Friday", however this seems to include a 1hr lunch break (as that's how long everyone in the office takes for lunch). I'm not sure if I'm in the wrong for misunderstanding this but there's no mention of lunch break lengths or any details of this in my contract.

Advice is appreciated as I don't want to show him that award if it doesn't apply to me for some reason.

EDIT: Loving the advice guys, please keep it coming. :) I realise I probably could be a bit more pro-active and energetic, so I'll try working on that. I still don't really feel like I've done anything wrong with my work hours, but it always helps to be positive hehe.

EDIT2: Cheers for the feedback guys. I know there's definitely pro's to working here, so I'll just try to focus on those rather than dwelling on the lack of work haha. Could be a lot worse I guess. And you've answered my original question about paid lunch breaks, so I guess there's no helping it aha.

EDIT3: Just to clarify - I have no qualms working 45hr weeks if required. What I have an issue with is being asked to stay in the office over 38hrs when I have maybe 15 hours of billable work to do every week. There is NO WORK TO DO. Yes, I will look for a new job when I can, but that doesn't seem smart at the minute given the economic situation of the world. So just trying to figure out whether I suck it up and just sit in my chair for a few extra hours a week, or if I actually tell him that he's not allowed to ask more than 38 unless there's actually work that needs doing.

Education & Work

Comments

  • GG57 on 20/05/2020 - 16:20
    +1

    Your contract appears to be quite clear. Those are the hours of work, and wouldn't normally include any time taken for lunch.

    • themadman on 20/05/2020 - 16:23

      Yeah, I'm fairly inexperienced in what the deal is here, so advice is appreciated. That said, according to the award "For the purpose of the NES, ordinary hours of work under this award are 38 per week. An employee who by agreement with their employer is working a regular cycle (including shorter or longer hours) must not have ordinary hours of duty which exceed an average of 38 hours per week over the cycle.". Obviously when the work demands it I'm willing to put in the extra work to get it done, but am I obligated to work longer days every day regardless of current workload?

      • Hardlyworkin on 20/05/2020 - 20:53
        +3

        Are you a public servant?
        Are you paid an hourly basis?

        If you answered no to the questions above then keep dreaming of working only 38 hours a week!

        • themadman on 20/05/2020 - 21:27
          +2

          I feel like people aren't hearing me. Working longer than 38 hours isn't my issue. It's telling me I'm not working long enough when I'm only in for 38 hours when I have maybe 15 hours of work to do in a week. I spent all of today with no work to, so why does he care if I'm not there longer than 38 hrs?

          • spackbace on 20/05/2020 - 22:40
            +12

            @themadman: This is the questions you need to pose to him.

            How did the conversation go? Was there one or did you just nod and agree with what he said?

            Be careful, if you make it known that 60% of your time is wasted time. They might find there's no point with your position.

          • Hardlyworkin on 20/05/2020 - 22:47
            +2

            @themadman: Ahhhh, well it's much easier if you put that information in the post. It's a pity you're not working from home like the rest of us and finding various ways to fill 38 hours.

            To resolve your issue;

            Hi boss, I could do with some more work or new challenges if you have anything come up.

            • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 15:20

              @Hardlyworkin: Yep, I've basically emailed him along that line. Might arrange a follow up conversation with him.

      • Icecold5000 on 22/05/2020 - 16:32

        but am I obligated to work longer days every day regardless of current workload?

        You can most likely argue the point but if let it be known that you’ve only got 15 hours of billable work to to a week what is the point of having you work?

        Do you think there are not large number of experienced engineers with have just been made redundant and want to feed their families and keep their homes? You are in a weak position and the dangerous thing is you don’t know it.

  • spackbace on 20/05/2020 - 16:25
    +5

    The fact he brought it up is a strong reflection on you.

    What do your colleagues do? Are you rushing for the door at knock-off, arriving 5mins early etc etc? Are you all leaving the office at the same time as a team, arriving roughly the same time?

    • themadman on 20/05/2020 - 16:30
      +1

      I do see what you mean, and I understand that this probably looks like I'm just being a bad employee. I work in a small office and everyone starts and finishes at different times (no group projects, meetings etc), however from what I've seen everyone does around 8-8.5hrs (including lunch). My boss has been really great as far as flexibility is concerned, and I definitely appreciate that.

      All the work I do are my own projects (which I get done fairly promptly), and so I don't feel the need to stick around once my daily hours are done. Is this bad? I'm not lagging behind, and in fact have no jobs on the go currently (am just sitting at my desk). Should I just sit around here? I might be in the wrong, but it just feels stupid to be here any longer than necessary.

      • spackbace on 20/05/2020 - 16:37
        +3

        This is what you need to discuss with your boss. Either it's a chance to say "hey boss, I'm awesome and completing these jobs early, can I get some more work?" or "Hey boss, I'm awesome and completing these jobs early, can I get some more work?"

        It's your chance to look like you're a go-getter, not prepared to do the bare minimum, regardless of how efficient you are at your work. Unless someone is there to know that you're completing your tasks sooner than expected, they just likely think you're working to the hours given, nothing more nothing less.

        Show some initiative and try to show the effort you're putting in, and I'm sure they'll see it, and this will reflect on job advancement opportunities or income increases.

        • themadman on 20/05/2020 - 16:41

          Yeah, when I first started working here I definitely did a lot of the looking for work however at the minute there's not really much work coming in. Doesn't hurt to keep trying though. :)

          As I mentioned below, this is a small company and advancement/raises aren't really much of a thing (hard to advance when you're the youngest of 3 engineers lol). I'm definitely lacking motivation in that department and have honestly been considering looking for a new job in a bigger firm (I really appreciate organisation/structure, which this company really lacks). That said, looking for a new job doesn't seem particularly wise in the current climate.

          • BartholemewH on 21/05/2020 - 19:40

            @themadman: Get a job in a bigger firm imo. If you're not learning things and/or being valued move on.

      • Ezekiel2320 on 20/05/2020 - 19:06
        +9

        it just feels stupid to be here any longer than necessary.

        It IS completely stupid, however a large part of the old workforce think that "bums in seats = productivity".

        Why do you think it took a global pandemic for them to allow Work from Home?

        • themadman on 20/05/2020 - 19:24
          +3

          My boss adamantly refuses to allow anyone to work from home. He thinks people can't work when they're not in an office :/

          • freshness872 on 21/05/2020 - 16:42
            +1

            @themadman: That is a horrible way of working. As long you get the job done by when you need to get it done, the conditions around it shouldn't matter.

  • Hybroid on 20/05/2020 - 16:30
    +1

    As a full time employee, your contract will clearly stipulate the number of hours expected to work per week. This does not include lunch breaks, bathroom visits, personal calls etc.

    Over time the focus on your hours reduces as you end up doing well over your contracted hours on a weekly basis and there's some flexibility given.

    As an aside, you're two years away from starting the Chartership journey, this should be your main focus right now and start going through information and asking people what and where you need to position yourself to achieve this successfully ASAP.

    • themadman on 20/05/2020 - 16:33

      Cheers. That makes sense with regard to the expected work hours. I just wasn't sure if the contract conflicts with the award which one is correct? Again, I'm not here to be slack/take advantage of my employer (small business owner). I just honestly don't have that much work to do, and it seems dumb to be sitting around even longer.

      I can appreciate that when you've got lots of work to do, you just get it done and don't be a stickler for what you're entitled to, but I'm not really in that position very often (certainly not at the moment).

      • Hybroid on 20/05/2020 - 16:36

        I just honestly don't have that much work to do, and it seems dumb to be sitting around even longer.

        A) Let line manager know they need to find you more work.

        B) Start your Chartership prep. There's hundreds of hours of stuff to do.

        • themadman on 20/05/2020 - 16:37

          Yeah, I'll look into it. Cheers for the advice.

          I think you're overestimating the size of this company aha. This is a small business including 3 engineers (including me and my boss), a drafter, architect and receptionist.

          • [Deactivated] on 20/05/2020 - 17:19
            +5

            @themadman: Maybe start looking for another job. It does sound like you're not really needed, at least not in a full-time capacity.

            • themadman on 20/05/2020 - 19:29
              +2

              @[Deactivated]: Yeah, that's how I'm feeling tbh. The problem is I don't want to go for a new job because there's no jobkeeper and if things get worse again I doubt I'd be kept for long. It's a bad time to be leaving a stable job.

              • [Deactivated] on 20/05/2020 - 19:38
                +1

                @themadman:

                there's no jobkeeper and if things get worse again I doubt I'd be kept for long. It's a bad time to be leaving a stable job.

                Then try harder to look busy and stay back for that extra 30 mins everyday.

  • GG57 on 20/05/2020 - 16:39

    With respect, you have mentioned in a couple of responses that you don't have much work to do just now.
    I think that most employers / managers would expect someone in that situation to show some initiative and ask if they can help others, or take on additional work, or perhaps undertake some training where applicable.

    • themadman on 20/05/2020 - 16:43

      Maybe I could ask about training.

      As I said to a few others, there's only 2 other engineers (of which my boss is one). It's kinda hard to take on additional work when there's nothing coming in!

  • pjetson on 20/05/2020 - 16:59
    +4

    Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but if you're working 8 hours a day less half an hour lunch break, and other people are working 8.5 hours a day less an hour lunch break, aren't you all working the same 7.5 hours a day?

    • themadman on 20/05/2020 - 19:24
      +1

      That was my logic too, but I don't think he really understands that. :D

  • Caped Baldy on 20/05/2020 - 18:11

    I would have figured it's 40hrs of work time. Working hours and timesheets are one of the first things I would have explained to a new graduate.

    • themadman on 20/05/2020 - 19:25

      Yeah, there's not much organisation at this place so it's never really been explained. That said, I'm now curious if it's even legal given the award?

      • Caped Baldy on 20/05/2020 - 19:31

        40 hrs is pretty standard in the big firms fwiw.

        • Timbo94 on 21/05/2020 - 07:20

          40 hour weeks are standard in all firms that I know of - big or small

          • coin saver on 21/05/2020 - 07:58
            +1

            @Timbo94: I can't see that considering. "The average weekly hours over the period must not exceed:
            for a full-time employee, 38 hours or for an employee other than a full-time employee, the lesser of:38 hours or the employee’s ordinary hours of work in a week."

            "An award or agreement can provide for average weekly hours that are greater than the hours above if those additional hours are considered reasonable."" However you will find it hard to get that through the Industrial Relations Commission
            Even under the relevant award in this case 38hrs is the maximum. "18.1 For the purpose of the NES,ordinary hours of work under this award are 38 per week. An employee who by agreement with their employer is working a regular cycle (including shorter or longer hours) must not have ordinary hours of duty which exceed an average of 38 hours per week over the cycle."

            • Timbo94 on 21/05/2020 - 08:44

              @coin saver:

              agreement can provide for average weekly hours that are greater than the hours above if those additional hours are considered reasonable

              This is the key line. I would say that most employees (especially in engineering firms such as I am) would consider an extra 2 hours a week reasonable. As has been pointed out previously, sometimes larger firms will push you to work 50 or 60 hour weeks. I am lucky as I can work my 40 hours and be done with it.

              • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 15:19

                @Timbo94: I honestly wouldn't care about 40hrs+ if I was flat out busy the whole time (ie. reasonable additional hours). But can >38hrs be justified if I'm only getting 10-15hrs billable work to complete every week?

                • Timbo94 on 21/05/2020 - 20:06
                  +2

                  @themadman: You work the hours you are contracted to work. When we are quieter at work, that's the time we spend on training. Maybe ask your boss if you can help with any office tasks such as marketing, help out with tenders etc. Although if you consistently find yourself with nothing to do you, it sounds like you need to start looking for another job.

          • od810 on 21/05/2020 - 11:33
            +3

            @Timbo94: i have never worked for any companies that has 40hour work week in contract over the last 8 years. Most of my contract were either 37.5 or 38hours.

  • JimmyF on 20/05/2020 - 19:02
    +1

    my boss regarding work hours and he's told me that I've done 30 minutes less every day than I'm meant to

    Ok lets review the facts then

    states "Standard work week consists of a minimum 40 hours, Monday to Friday"

    Hint this does say WORK

    I've been doing 8 hr days including a 30 minute lunch break (works out to around 38hr weeks)

    Ok so you have been WORKING 7.5 hours a day, or 37.5 hours a week. Lunch breaks are never paid or included as part of the 'working hours', so yes your boss is right you haven't been working as per your contract.

    • coin saver on 20/05/2020 - 19:22

      But what about paid relief breaks. I was on a 38hr week were you worked 8hrs a day and had 1 day off every 4wks.We were only at work for 8hrs total including our unpaid 30 minute lunch break and a paid 10 minute relief break the remaining 30 minutes of paid relief break was paid but not taken.basically we were on a relief break when we were traveling home.

      • JimmyF on 20/05/2020 - 19:35

        But what about paid relief breaks

        Things we are not talking about. We are talking about lunch breaks which are normally unpaid for 99.9% of people.

        I was on a 38hr week were you worked 8hrs a day and had 1 day off every 4wks

        Yes its a RDO setup, also common.

    • themadman on 20/05/2020 - 19:27

      Yes, that's basically what he's saying, and I'm trying to figure out if it's actually legal. It's my first job out of Uni and I didn't really clarify that when I was getting the job so I guess it's my fault. I just figured it was a normal work week. It's a normal office job. :D

      • JimmyF on 20/05/2020 - 19:33

        Yes, that's basically what he's saying, and I'm trying to figure out if it's actually legal

        Yes its legal, lunch aka or Meal Break as it is called, is not normally paid unless under very special conditions. Which you don't seem to be under

        https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employee-entitlements/hours-of-w…

        It's a normal office job.

        Then its 100% not a paid lunch break. You are being paid to do 8 hours of WORK a day, if you take a 1 hour unpaid lunch break, then you will need to be there 9 hours for example.

        • coin saver on 21/05/2020 - 08:29
          -2

          I never claimed that jakem742 or anyone else should be paid for lunch breaks it is not called for in the National Employment Standards and only in very few workplace agreements.

          • JimmyF on 21/05/2020 - 09:05
            -3

            @coin saver:

            I never claimed that jakem742 or anyone else should be paid for lunch breaks

            How about we keep it on topic then and stop muddying the waters with things not related to the OPs issue.

            • coin saver on 21/05/2020 - 09:20
              -3

              @JimmyF: How about you try and make a constructive informed comment on the subject.I was not of topic at all breaks were a key part of the original post.

              • JimmyF on 21/05/2020 - 09:27
                -1

                @coin saver: Unlike you, my reply was on topic to the OP question. For some reason you felt the need to start waffling about paid relief breaks to my reply, all things not related to my reply to the OP or the OPs question.

        • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 22:10

          That makes sense with respect to lunch being unpaid. That seems to be the general rule in businesses so obviously I don't expect any special treatment or to be paid for lunch. I'm wondering if it's legal to expect 40hrs as a minimum (when there is no reasonable cause to work more than 38 ie. no work to do). The NES seems to suggest that 38hrs is the max an employer can force an employee to work without a reason (ie. there's lots of work).

          • JimmyF on 22/05/2020 - 09:11

            @themadman:

            I'm wondering if it's legal to expect 40hrs as a minimum

            Your endless changing of the 'issue' makes it seem like you don't want to work the hours you have been employed for? Are you looking for a way out to work less hours?

            Most full time work weeks in this country are either 38 hours, 40 hours, or 40 hours with a RDO.

            Your employer is working within the law, they are paying you for 40 hours a week, you need to do 40 hours.

            If you want to work less, then ask to only be paid for 37.5 hours, and then you can work less hours/the hours you have been working.

  • SBOB on 20/05/2020 - 19:59
    +2

    If your boss has brought it up, after 3 years, that seems like a strange time to raise it..

    Either way, I work in a different engineering stream, but it does surprise me when I see junior engineers do the bare minimum in regards to effort or work hours in what is a pretty competitive industry to get your foot in the door, and the vast majority of career progressions occur due to previous experience and recommendations/word of mouth.

    A bit of extra enthusiasm/effort in the initial years pays back easily in future promotions and job opportunities.

    • freshness872 on 21/05/2020 - 16:45
      +1

      Could it be his boss laying the foundation to get rid of OP since he's doing 15 hours of billable work out of 40 a week? It is way easier to replace a younger engineer than an experienced one.

      • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 22:23

        Nah, I don't think he wants to get rid of me. There's honestly just not that much work coming in (it basically gets split between me and another senior engineer). I don't think he's unhappy with my performance/work completed (or at least he hasn't admitted to thinking that when asked). It's literally just the fact that my hours in the office aren't hitting 40…

  • Donaldhump on 20/05/2020 - 20:10
    +5

    How many hours does your pay slip show

    And no offence why tf would the 40 hours on your contract include your lunch hours

    Standard work week is 38 hours more a less, but if your contract says 40 you work 8 hours a day, you don’t need an engineering degree to work this one out.

  • Geminist on 20/05/2020 - 20:24
    +6

    As many pointed out, your 40 hours are hours doing actual work and you don't count bathroom breaks, coffee breaks etc. The 40 hours are typically considered billable hours. Breaks are non-billable.

    Also there are plenty of things you can do, for example your CPEng application like others suggested. You can also look to create new calculation spreadsheets for the things you normally do, organise your technical folders and remove superseded standards, go through your standard specification and update that, read a technical journal and write a summary note for your colleagues, attend free technical webinars and report back to your colleagues, help create better templates, learn GIS, learn more about BIM etc. The list goes on.

    • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 15:18

      Yep, and while I haven't tried everything in that list out I've basically been doing that stuff in my free time. It's more the fact that he wants me to work longer hours to just do that stuff that's bugging me. I might do a bit of prep for CPEng as I hear that takes a while.

  • chillybags on 20/05/2020 - 20:52
    +2

    You're very lucky that you can even work a 40hr week and get away with it. I know many people in various engineering disciplines (civil, mining etc) for different companies and their contract is a salary for 40hr week but expected to work 45-50hrs at a minimum, with some civil companies working people up to 60hrs a week including additional shifts on saturdays for no extra pay. Contracts usually state something along the lines of 40hrs is the standard but required to "work as many hours to fulfil the requirements of the job"

    That said if your contract says 40, and your boss has asked you to do 40hrs, just do 40hrs.

    • [Deactivated] on 21/05/2020 - 23:14

      How common are these 45-60 hour work weeks? It's kinda sad that 40 hours a week is considered lucky. Is this just grads or in general? Engineering is something I've been considering but extreme competition and the possibility of hours like this makes me worried. I also live a 1.5 hour commute from the city.

      • chillybags on 22/05/2020 - 06:24

        Im in the mines and I was expected to work 7-4 daily. I would usually get in around 6:30 though and leave 4-4:15. No dedicated lunch break either, would just sit at desk and do some work whilst eating. There were obviously some busy days that required longer but I think that can be expected in engineering. Ive got no qualms with the hours because we are payed well. But my partner worked on a major civil site and she was doing 7:30-5:30pm monday to friday and then had to come in from 7:30-2pm every 2nd saturday. She was payed significantly less than me.

        • [Deactivated] on 22/05/2020 - 20:14

          Thanks, 7-4 is quite reasonable. Is there a reason why Engineering requires such long hours? Is it simply hard to divide the work up?

      • bonkers22 on 22/05/2020 - 19:52

        I'm an undergrad at a prominent engineering consultancy, and from what I've seen it's quite common as project deadlines come up, and people do regularly work more hours than the normal "37.5" stated in their contracts in other times. This goes for graduates and regular engineers. Senior engineers tend to spend even more time at work. In my experience, I tend to see most people come in before I do, and leave afterward although as I said I'm still a student. Weekend work is also somewhat common. It is what it is but not sure how it works in smaller firms.

        • [Deactivated] on 22/05/2020 - 20:15

          I see, thanks it seems quite a demanding job, that's why I'm still hesitant to go in it. I don't mind working long hours if it's something I'm passionate about.
          What's your normal day like or for an engineer?

          • bonkers22 on 22/05/2020 - 21:10

            @[Deactivated]: I hear it's very rewarding seeing the impact of your work (albeit it takes years between the multiple iterations of design to actual construction). My typical (before work from home) day involved getting into the office around 8:30am, having coffee and a chat with colleagues for 15 or so minutes, reading emails and then chasing for work if I didn't already have some assigned.

            For junior staff like me (and graduates too), the pipeline of work is much shorter and you'll often be chasing senior engineers for stuff to do (you need to be productive or "billable"). I might then do simple design tasks, verification (double check things), administration stuff seniors are too busy for, or assist with drawings. Lunch is then about an hour, again we all try to take it together so it's never boring. We all then go for our second social coffee around 3pm (15 mins or so), and then I leave around 5:15pm. A typical engineer (post "graduate" title) will be similar, but with more responsibility, which necessitates the longer hours (maybe an hour or two longer each day). People in consulting firms tend to work around deadlines rather than set hours, and that's when I hear about weekends being spent working. Also if you spend a lot of hours one week meeting deadlines, you can "balance" it out by working much shorter hours the week after.

  • coin saver on 21/05/2020 - 08:47
    -2

    Your employment contract's hours of work are invalid as all employees who are eligible to work in Australia are automatically covered by the NES (National Employment Standards) regardless of whether they sign an employment contract.The NES guarantees that you can only be required to work a maximum of 38 ordinary hours per week. Your agreement cannot require you to work more than that amount of ordinary hours.

    • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 10:46

      This is the information I was after. Thank you.

    • krenske on 21/05/2020 - 15:52
      +1

      Coin saver: that’s incorrect or at least only partial information.
      That is ordinary hours and refers on to awards and minimum payments.
      It is completely legal and common place for a contract to be written for 40/50/60 hours all it means is that the hours after 38 are to be paid at overtime rates based on your Relevant award.
      Essentially they can put anything in a contract as long as they pay enough

      • FimpBARGAIN on 21/05/2020 - 19:46

        Most engineering positions don't get paid overtime, over the decades engineers have been excluded from EBA's etc and gradually had our rights eroded.
        Now it's expected you will do extra hours as required.

      • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 22:21
        -1

        I haven't been getting paid overtime for the hours over 38, so they don't have that excuse, but that makes sense. Can they enforce overtime hours even if you're not doing billable work? Or do they have to be able to justify the need for you to work?

        • krenske on 22/05/2020 - 20:53

          They don’t have to classify it as overtime just pay it as at that rate.
          For example if the award says $20/hr then double for overtime - as long as your salary for 40 hours is more than 840/week ($20x38+$40x2) it’s all legal and common.
          Per your contract it’s not overtime but per the award it is..

  • Mrgreenz on 21/05/2020 - 09:41
    +1

    38 hour week as a grad civil engineer is crazy, 99% that ive met in my career would be pushing 60 hours.

    Edit: on site construction

    • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 10:47
      -1

      Yeah, I have heard crazy things about site engineering. I'm definitely not complaining about the amount of work I have to do aha.

      • cheaptech20 on 22/05/2020 - 07:15
        +1

        It's the same in big engineering consulting firms if you want any rapid career progression or salary increases.

        I also started in a small firm straight out of uni and voluntarily worked long hours. Nothing billable? I helped the firm win work and developed my tendering skills.

        This gave me a strong reference to go to a large engineering consulting firm where I worked 60 hour weeks. This boosted my reputation in the organisation early, so once I had built that I could reduce my hours to 40+lunch breaks and still progress. Never try to argue about the bare minimums.

        Suggest OP do something similar or risk being perceived as lazy when a future employer calls your manager for a reference! If work is not coming in, see if you can do something to help win more.

      • Mrgreenz on 22/05/2020 - 15:06

        Yeah, sorry wasn't means as a "suck it up, you got it easy" comment, was genuinely just surprised there would be grads out there in a strict 38hr week.

  • Seasoned Salt on 21/05/2020 - 10:02

    What do you actually do as a civil engineer in your company? Is it drafting, calculations or contract preparation?

    Surely there would be more work involved.

    • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 10:42
      +1

      I do drafting, calcs and contract prep haha. It's just that we're not getting enough work in to keep 3 engineers busy at the minute, so there's quite a lot of empty time to fill.

      • hur91 on 21/05/2020 - 14:06
        +1

        Can you improve how you do the calcs? If you're using excel, can you improve those calcs sheets, using Pivot tables, macros, Vlookups, etc?

        Drafting - if your library of symbols isn't comprehensive, you could improve on that.

        Contract prep - I'm sure there's stuff for you to learn re contracts, esp coming fresh out of uni.

        • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 15:10

          Yeah, I've been drafting up a bunch of templates for standard scenarios. Everyone tends to just use their previous jobs as templates for stuff which I personally hate, so been taking the time to make re-usable templates from scratch. Same goes for spreadsheets and quotes. I've basically made my own stuff from scratch so that I have something consistent to re-use.

          I don't mind doing any of that stuff but there's no way I want to work overtime doing it haha.

  • Drakesy on 21/05/2020 - 10:12
    +2

    From my experience as a civil engineer your boss is right. I'm in consulting and my work day is 8.30 to 5.30 with a 1 hour lunch break, which is 8 hours of "working" time.
    Unfortunately yes that means every day you need to do 8 hours at your desk

  • knk on 21/05/2020 - 10:21
    +1

    This is a question for fairwork, but regardless as a salaried full time employee the maximum ORDINARY hours you should be "contractually obliged" to work is 38.

    Now there's a heap of other loopholes that they can use to have you stay longer or guilt you into staying longer such as "reasonable additional overtime" or "you work 38 hours and our office hours are 8-5" etc.

    Either way my advice would be to just suck it up for now and find a new job if they're legit pulling you up on your hours of all things. That's ridiculous.

    If your boss came to you and said hey Jake, your work output hasn't been quite where I want it I need you to work on completing X tasks within a timeframe of Y that would be much more productive and reasonable (provided the request is achievable). They could even come to you and ask what they could do to help you be more productive etc.

    • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 10:45

      Thanks, that's the kind of information I was after. It's not like I'm trying to slack off or anything, I just want to understand how long I'm obliged to sit around in the event that there's not much to do aha.

      It does feel slightly ridiculous to highlight working hours at a time like this when there's very little to do, but I don't feel like I have enough experience to quickly find a job if I leave right now. I also don't want to leave on bad terms as I can't imagine it would be great to have an angry prior employer on your reference list.

  • Shark on 21/05/2020 - 10:52
    +1

    Mate, surely your trolling. Questioning a half hour hear or there is going to get you nowhere fast with your work attitude in your OP. I'm a Civil Engineer also, but 22 years in the industry and two other Masters degrees including an MBA. I suggest focusing a bit more on your work ethic and not counting hours so much. I don't work crazy hours by any stretch of the imagination but I certainly wouldn't be counting half hour blocks here or there or getting in to a conversation with a manager as to whether I am working the required hours. Rather your work ethic and productivity should be on show for all to see, including your manager. At 3 years out I would be focusing on my career path and the key steps and short term goals I need to tick off to progress my career (and remuneration) to where I would like it to be. Best of luck.

    • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 11:28
      +1

      Gahhhh, I think I need to update the OP haha. I'm not trying to get out of work. My boss is asking me to work over 38hrs when I have BASICALLY NOTHING TO DO. I have no qualms working where it's required haha. I'm contemplating moving out to a bigger organisation which is more structured/logical in it's work approach. I realise I've had it good here with expected work hours but I honestly find being asked to do 40hrs in the office with only 20hrs of available work more painful than I think I'd find 45hr weeks where I'm busy. Won't know till I try it though I guess.

      • od810 on 21/05/2020 - 11:36
        +1

        Go get a new job dude. There's no career advancement in your current company, you don't have a "good" relationship because your boss perceives you as a slack. I don't understand why people keep doing jobs in a place that they don't see advancement or find it boring.

        • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 11:40

          Yeah, I'm thinking I will. It wasn't this bad before Coronavirus hit, but I've never really had more than 30hrs/wk worth of work. The pay isn't amazing, but I've justified it by having minimal stress and good work hours, however if he's now telling me to work longer I think I'll just move on like you say. Just gotta wait for the whole coronavirus thing to pass.

          • FimpBARGAIN on 21/05/2020 - 19:51

            @themadman: It does sound like you should try to work somewhere bigger with more structure for a while.
            Getting good work practices and procedures drilled into you now will make you a better Engineer in the future, don't stagnate especially this early in your career.

            • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 22:20

              @FimpBARGAIN: Yeah definitely. Again, it's been really good as a graduate because I've been given a lot of responsibility/independance with doing my own jobs, so it's good as far as experience goes. There's not really an progression as you say though and I think looking elsewhere is a good idea. Cheers. :)

              • od810 on 22/05/2020 - 17:23

                @themadman: If you are looking for job, start now before the job market is flooded with people got redundant when the government stop the money injection. If you think job market now bad, it will be worse later on.

                • themadman on 22/05/2020 - 17:53

                  @od810: See, what's to stop me getting made redundant if I get hired somewhere new? As the new guy I'd almost certainly be the first to go. This job is kinda annoying me atm, but at least my position is fairly secure (despite what it might seem now, I don't think he has any intention of getting rid of me).

  • [Deactivated] on 21/05/2020 - 10:54

    What's your salary?
    How do you become an onsite civil engineer - does it require a pathway from normal civil?
    Where did you study?
    Is civil still a good option?
    Just realised this wasn't an ama

    • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 11:43

      Not sure if this is sarcastic, but happy to answer. :D

      I'm on 67k (including super), and am a civil/structural designer (office job mostly) doing a variety of residential and commercial work. Mostly a combination of structural and stormwater design for local businesses.

      Pretty sure you can do site engineering with a general civil degree. I avoided the site engineer path because I heard the expected work hours were crazy (60+/wk). I studied for 2 years at University of Newcastle (UoN) and transferred to UniSA where I completed the degree. I personally love the work and am glad I did it at Uni. When I was looking for jobs I had around 6 offers, however that was a bit over 2 years ago so things are probably different atm.

      • trapper on 21/05/2020 - 12:00
        +1

        67k including super (so ~$61k salary) for an engineer??

        man that seems really low

        • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 12:06

          I mean, I started out as a graduate and after 2 years work I haven't had a discussion about a raise. I was planning on suggesting a raise around March and then coronavirus hit and I decided to hold out a bit longer aha.

          It's a small business that doesn't really seem to be that well run (so everyone is paid fairly low including the boss). The reason I've been ok with it is my work life has been great - no stress, no long hours etc. This whole drama over my expected work hours is making me reconsider though.

        • Drakesy on 21/05/2020 - 12:45
          +5

          Its pretty standard these days, engineering firms have been squeezing graduates for years. It doesnt help that universities are churning them out faster than the industry needs. I started on $64k including super and had to jump jobs a fair few times in my 3 years to get to the $100k mark

          • SBOB on 21/05/2020 - 13:37
            +1

            @Drakesy: I wouldn't expect 100k in 3 years out of uni to be the 'norm' for most engineers though :)
            (though the engineering stream would definitely be a factor)

            • Drakesy on 21/05/2020 - 15:49

              @SBOB: Oh and I never meant that, I was saying that the 61k salary is pretty standard for a graduate engineer

          • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 15:11

            @Drakesy: $100k after 3 years for a civil/structural engineer? Are you in one of the big cities? Don't think I'll get that much for a while, but it would be nice haha. What kind of hours are you working?

            • Drakesy on 21/05/2020 - 15:47

              @themadman: Yep, got made redundant a couple of months ago then traded up to contracting with the government. Still working the standard 40 hour work week. Just unfortunately contract doesnt come with sick/annual leave, so probably closer to 90k once thats taken out

              • FimpBARGAIN on 21/05/2020 - 20:31

                @Drakesy: You've been there 3 years and got some experience. Like you said there is no room for advancement and it looks like the boss (rightly or wrongly) has you in his sights.
                Time to get ahead of it and start tee-ing up interviews etc.
                I had to job hunt at the start of this year (mech eng with 15yrs experience), I found just updating my resume on seek saw a heap of recruiters start calling me.
                Worth spending a night to set it in motion just to see what's out there, it's better to look before you need to

                • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 22:18

                  @FimpBARGAIN: Cheers, hadn't considered this option. Will have a look at sending out my resume.

      • Zephyrus on 22/05/2020 - 15:52

        In regards to being legal, if the awards sets a minimum wage. Calculate your hours + O/T to determine if you're getting underpaid as per the award.

        My bet is you aren't, as I think the base rate is something like 48k per year full-time and 2 hours overtime a week isn't enough to push out of spec with the award.

        I would also say you're probably getting underpaid, I graduated 2 years ago in electrical, got paid peanuts(65k inc super) at start, got two raises at that job (~20% and ~10%) and then got a new job and I'm on 90k now inc super. I would think civil should be similar, in fact I would have thought it would be higher.

  • chillybags on 21/05/2020 - 12:23

    I think its important to understand what this discussion was like. Is he wanting/trying to dock you pay? Was he angry and it was a heated discussion? Was it just a verbal warning or written warning? TBH if it was just a verbal warning, just take the feedback onboard and make sure your boss is happy with your work hours and performance in the future. Nothing further required from there. If you do well his opinion of you will hopefully change in the near future.

    • themadman on 21/05/2020 - 15:16

      He's not docking pay (as far as I'm aware at this stage) and he didn't come off overly angry. Definitely disapproving and a verbal warning only.

      I get that the simplest option is simply to just do what he says but I want to know if it's fair to expect overtime (surely anything over 38hrs is overtime) when I have no work to do haha.

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