Is the fact we have a third world NBN the fault of the LNP or the voters?
Something else?
Maybe the blame should be laid at the feet of the ‘swing’ voters who got the LNP over the line, since the rusted ons (typically old people) won’t ever change
Do you blame the poor NBN on the LNP or the millions of people that voted for them?
Boogerman on 12/09/2020 - 11:13
Poll Options
- 756Liberal National Party
- 105Voters for the Liberal National Party
- 88Other (see comments)
Comments
wireless networks will never hold a candle to fixed-line (especially fibre) networks
@theg00s3: On a pure speed basis yes.
Wireless technology has improved to the point where it is suitable for 99% of the population, and is far cheaper to implement and upgrade.
FTTP only makes sense in certain commercial applications.
Wireless connections will never be as fast or reliable as wired, that is just physics
@Ononono: Never said it was faster. The slight speed reduction is not worth the extra cost of FTTP. Wireless technology is getting faster and will be suitable for 99% of consumer applications.
@oswade: The main problem isn't for people trying to watch netflix, it's for businesses that have to deal with huge workflow bottlenecks and are disadvantaged compared to global competitors
@oswade: With the proliferation of high density housing, do you understand how bad mobile connections can get?
4G/5G will be suitable for portable use cases for sure, but for main connectivity, I think we still have a fair way to go.
To illustrate this point, living in a high density neighbourhood, I'd still be proper rekt trying to do a video call on telstra's 4GX network because of the ungodly congestion. Furthermore, the signal strength goes from full to almost 0 as I move into areas away from the external face of the building. While this is anecdotal, its a recurring theme.
My fibre connection with 2.4+5Ghz wifi otoh covers the whole apartment with ~90Mbps consistent speeds.
Back when we weren't all working from home, trying to do work over a mobile dongle (especially in the CBD) is an exercise in frustration.
@oswade: "slight" 🤣
Hundreds (today) megabits per second difference is "slight"? Tomorrow, when the FTTP hardware is upgraded to allow for beyond gigabit, will that then be "a little"?
"extra cost of FTTP" 🤣
As opposed to the extra cost of paying hundreds of dollars per hour to contractors to:
- Maintain corroding copper
- Fix dropouts from faulty copper
- Remediate FTTN that can't even hit 25mbps to another type of technology - a doubling of CAPEX at minimum?
- Upgrade HFC loops to support higher speeds and/or more capacity
- Purchasing Optus and Telstra's HFC infrastructure, and finding out a huge chunk of it was so badly maintained it was better to replace all of that with an FTTC deployment?
- FTTC basically being the same as FTTP - all the same technology and fibre is laid, with the additional cost of the copper-fibre interconnect? And then having to remediate bad copper anyway? Plus all the same maintenance as FTTN?
- Continue to pay Telstra and Optus billions to rent their POS copper network? Money that could have paid for tens of thousands of FTTP deployments as a once-off?If you have no idea how technology works, kindly STFU.
@khell: Who's gonna pay for the gigabit upgrade? Where's your cost/benefit analysis?
Do you think there are no maintenance and upgrade costs associated with FTTP?
I never said maintaining the copper network was a good solution, the reliance on copper should eventually be replaced by wireless.
FTTP should only be built in places where there is a clear need/demand for it.
Understanding technology is only half the equation.
Awaiting evidence of your tech and finance qualifications please, or STFU yourself :)
Who's gonna pay for the gigabit upgrade?
The gigabit upgrade of everyone without FTTP? The beyond gigabit upgrade? Who knows? People like you (profanity) the whole country over.
Where's your cost/benefit analysis?
Where is YOUR cost-benefit analysis? Can you produce one that isn't solely a
naivebraindead raw number comparison of initial cost to install FTTP vs other technology types, and takes into account the ongoing maintenance costs, the ongoing copper rental costs, the loss of revenue to NBN from not being able to sell higher tier speeds, etc?Do you think there are no maintenance and upgrade costs associated with FTTP?
It's glass wrapped in plastic. Do you really need this explained to you?
I never said maintaining the copper network was a good solution, the reliance on copper should eventually be replaced by wireless.
You really need to stop talking. You have zero understanding of communications technology if you think wireless is a solution for anything but low demand users. There is already a clear example of why wireless will not work - the hugely oversaturated NBN Fixed Wireless footprint. Please stop.
Your whole argument is founded on the LNP lie that FTTP would have cost more. How much more? And you think $50 billion+ already thrown to deploy a worse than third-world network that should be "eventually replaced by wireless" getting replaced is a good thing when a similar cost world-class FTTP network could have been built in its place and NOT REPLACED? Are you for real?
FTTP should only be built in places where there is a clear need/demand for it.
This type of backward-thinking is why this country is going down the drain. Who are you to decide where there is a "clear need"? Water supply should only be developed where there is a "clear need/demand" for it. Electricity generation should be scaled down or not built until there is a "clear need/demand" for it. Places that don't have a "clear need" should simply suffer blackouts until they demonstrate their "clear need".
That fair and equitable Internet access - the same Internet that is the main driver behind the success of huge tech behemoths in other countries - is not recognised in this country is an absolute disservice. Want to develop the next Google? Better move to some place fortunate enough to have access to a reliable connection that doesn't drop out every 10 seconds.
Understanding technology is only half the equation.
Awaiting evidence of your tech and finance qualifications please, or STFU yourself :)I don't need to prove anything to you.
@oswade: That's exactly right. So what are people going to do with a gigabit connection? Watch Netflix? You can already watch multiple 4k streams on a 100mbps connection. We need gigabit because we're a first world country and we deserve it? If you can download a 1hr long video in 10 minutes on gigabit NBN, your internet connection sits idle for the other 50 minutes you spend watching it.
@Blargman2001: The problem is that those wanting gigabit speeds are the ones that will be subsidising the low speed users. Arguing that nobody needs these high speeds is actually starving the NBN of the money it needs to make a profit. Whether they use it for Netflix or not, as long as they pay the bills, NBN would be happy.
@scupper: No arguing that gigabit is built where it's needed. Government is not made of money and neither are you.
@Blargman2001: Imagine a political party promising FTTP only to dense cities. That would have gone over like a lead balloon.
@scupper: Unfortunately dense cities get a lot of things less populated areas don't have. Proper sewerage and gas are a few that I can think of. If you really needed FTTP you can pay for it. That seperates those who truly need the speed vs those who think it would be handy.
Kogan will send Love from Russia lol
I question why you need 100 speeds ?
netflix ?
Also, their are businesses that do provide nbn speeds of 100
The Liberal gov saved taxpayers from wasting money on rolling out the nbn to 95 % of the country
By blowing the cost to $51B? Yikes. I'd hate to look at how you run your household budget
"The Liberal gov saved taxpayers from wasting money on rolling out the nbn to 95 % of the country"
wot?
Labor put $46 billion in the bank and started nbnco and FTTP
LNP finished the job at a cost of at least $51 billion according to a financial review
So i/we tax payers paid at least $6 Billion more for shit nbn network.
Read the official NBNco financial statements for accurate audited financials.
But hey - at least it's actual worth is $8.7B now!
Goes Murdoch > LNP > Voters
A long hard core web of lies and propaganda over years and years.
Amazing that we've had to mobilise entire workforces so they can work from home due to COVID and people are still saying the NBN was a waste to begin with, let alone LNP buggering it all up!
Pretty much this. The Murdoch press is the root of all evil in Australia and the US.
As a Labor voter, I can assure you the NBN is 100% Labor's fault, it's been a disaster and never should have been invested in using taxpayer money (or anyone's money….).
And I couldn't care less about the blow-outs and the nerfs etc etc after it got going, it never should have been invested in to begin with. That $50b+ should be in healthcare and education. Turnbull is a pompous ass and that was very hard to look past when he criticized Rudd for it when he was teclo minister but he and every other telco minister (Labor and LNP) have just been trying to polish Rudd's turd, gg no re.
The nbn was not a turd. It was actually innovative and a good idea, until turnbull came and messed it all up
innovative idea - i'll give you that, unfortunately, it wasn't a good one. It's so fiercely defended for the wrong reasons because the idea of an NBN is good and prosperous/new-age.
I'm surprised it's so defended here on OzB, the reality of the NBN goes against the core of hunting bargains?
without a government infrastructure project like the nbn, there wouldn't have been any significant upgrade of Australia's internet connections
@jerrus: 5G isn't some magical panacea for all of our internet problems. 5G is probably only going to be viable in densely packed areas, which telcos will cherry pick. The nbn was meant to get everyone on the same (good) level of connectivity
Typical signs of BS as A Labor Voter to give the BS credibility. The NBN we have is nothing like the NBN Rudd rolled out - if we had received the Rudd NBN it would have been great for our economy but our enemies made sure we never received it. About 90% of the Comments are deliberate Bull Sh-t or people with out real knowledge talking through their butts
or……OR…. you could be wrong. IMAGINE THAT?!
or or or you just have your head stuck up your butt as usual
I vote for Murdoch because he controls the narrative about everything in this country. Just take a look at all the misinformed people in this thread repeating the same things word for word from the media heads, it's easy to just call them stupid but we should consider them as victims of the Murdoch machine.
If science was the mandatory subject in Year 12 & not English, we’d have a less gullible society
And it only took 3 pages of comments before someone finally posts the obvious answer.
Kevin Rudd sent shock waves through the Media & Foreign Think Tanks that have a lot of Control over our Government and Major Political Parties when he announced the policy to give us Very High-Speed internet, they did not want us to have that power at our Finger tips at an Affordable Rate. Malcolm Turner (American Bank Goldman Sachs insert in our Government).
At first it was well received except by a few in high places who knew the possibilities of such speed and Bandwidth.
But as the Technical writers started explain what it meant for Australians and explaining the types of programs that could be developed and the difference it would make to Australia (some tech articles explained some problems it could cause.
The Capacity Rudd talked about was just sending one colour down the optic Fiber.
Old Copper wire telephone lines and Nods were used to slow the NBN down but then they used price to slow it down even more.
NBN Price Gouging worked wonders the Telcos & ISP’s should have told the NBN to stick it up their arse at the prices they were charging.
But instead they crammed more users into each unit they bought slowing down your connection in Peak & week Ends plus reducing your bandwidth. They crammed that many users in your internet was running at less than half the speed you were paying for.
At first the main packages were 50mbps & 100mbps but now they are pushing packages of 25mbps & 50mbps meaning more than 50% of users have NBN running at less then 50mbps. Giving Australians a 3rd world internet service.
There are institutions that have internet running at 400mbps and higher but you can forget about it as your internet subscription would be $1000’s per week.
The Major Political Parties have screwed you
the idiots that voted for them
I don’t understand why the provision of internet services should be driven by a federal government at all.
The free market forces and private enterprise (5G) have us covered reasonably well. I think this was a massive waste of resources on something that was obsolete the moment they started digging.
I don’t blame LNP that they didn’t know what to do exactly with this little inheritance.
Also, the question is loaded - good trolling.
If everyone was using 5G it would be absolutely terrible experience. For 5G to be a viable alternative to nbn mmWave 5G would need to be able to go through walls, which it can't.
I truly believe mmWave 5G has the potential to revolutise the way we live, but not if everyone is using it when they don't have to.
In high density areas FTTP/FTTB would be a cheap and viable option. In low density/remote a wireless connection of sorts would be fine.
because private companies wouldn't fund something like the NBN. All our infrastructure is backed by the government. Why should this be different
And how was the NBN obsolete?
Out of curiosity does anyone know someone or had a quote themselves for this:
https://www.nbnco.com.au/learn/technology-choice-programIt's $330 per house to get a quote to see what it would cost for FTTP, they they say it can be a few thousand up to 10 thousand and beyond.
I am not a huge fan of the NBN rollout however I am happy that there is fibre a little closer to my house than the Telstra Exchange. I am currently on FTTC. I have found that a lot of my friends and family complaining about the NBN have been able to fix them with better wifi.
My parents had plugged in their old Optus modems using the wifi to extend the range. All separate network SSIDs, which left 3 devices on their network acting as routers with an IP of 192.168.0.1, so only 1 in 3 packets made it to the right place.
Reading these forums and replacing it all with Ubiquiti Unifi has them humming along now.Check out this thread on Whirlpool: https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/thread/97wjj0k9?p=874
FTTC quotes have come down recently. A lot of recent FTTC quotes have been between $2-4k. I would pay this.
Unfortunately I am on FTTN and my quote came in at $8592.
Thanks for the reply.
Yep,
had that done, organised it for all who were interested in my street.
Cost for the street was less than $30k, we had 9 takers for about $3k each.
Interesting thing is that for each taker there were 3 or 4 who didn't want it, even if I could get the price down to $1.5k. Not an economically challenged area, conclusion: Don't be fooled by the chat here or elsewhere on the web, most people don't want or need FTTP.
Took months to be installed but works well.
I had about 70/30 on FTTN, can now get 1000/400 on FTTP (I leave it on 50/20 most of the time and only switch up to 250/25 for big downloads to be honest, but it is nice know I can kick up the speed in a few minutes if I need it. Ping is down a few ms as well.)even if I could get the price down to $1.5k
Don't be fooled by the chat here or elsewhere on the web, most people don't want or need FTTP.It's probably all the people renting just didn't want to fork out cash on a property that isn't their own, yeah? And a Landlord who doesn't give a f^^k about upgrading his tenant's connection.
Nup, as I said, not an ecomically challenged area. Over 95% owner occupiers. Funding not an issue, just no desire. All happily living with 50/20 to 100/40.
@ThithLord: :) Fair point.
Definately mainly boomers. None under 40. Not a first home owner street either.
But the demographics would say 33% of the population is under 25, so they are out for owning homes.
Of the remaining 2/3 over 25, most are boomers or older…
https://profile.id.com.au/australia/five-year-age-groupsDefinately mainly boomers. None under 40. Not a first home owner street either.
Yeah so we can see why maybe they don't particularly care about the issue at hand, lol.
Not sure what the rest of your comment is trying to explain, though
@ThithLord: Just that most people in the country who are adults are GenX, Boomers or older.
So, that is why most people don't care about or need FTTP. They are happy with 50/20.No point pitching great technology to people who don't want it.
No point spending money building high speed networks for people who won't use it.
It would be a waste of money.@irony: So we shouldn't invest in advanced technology because today's boomers, according to your street, don't require it? Is that the gist of it? You don't realise how ridiculous that sounds?
@ThithLord: Pretty much.
Not just my street, the majority of the country don't want it, wouldn't use it and don't care. Therefore the government shouldn't fund it. That is pretty much how it works in a democracy.
50/20 is a perfectly adequate base level of service, if people do want more they are free to pay for it.
My take on most of this thread is "Stop wanting everything done for you for free, stop complaining and if you really want FTTP get off your lazy butt and get it done for yourself."50/20 is a perfectly adequate base level of service, if people do want more they are free to pay for it.
What? What? If they want more than that, they do pay for it! The NBN should install infrastructure that can be scaled up or down as required - and the consumer pays for the higher tiers. You have zero idea what you're talking about, that's become obvious.
50/20 is a perfectly adequate base level of service, if people do want more they are free to pay for it.
exactly… implement the infrastructure that allows for consumers to have options and the market provide those options and charge the required level for higher speeds
not - install the bare minimum and then have to come back in years to redo it later :/
My suburb Casey, was mid FTTP rollout when LNP was elected. Now half the suburb has FTTP and the other half FTTN. It's ridiculous. Of course I blame LNP.
I'm in one of the newer suburbs up Horsepark. THANKFULLY the ACT Government forced the developers to install FTTP.
I've got Gigabit NBN now… and it was a massive selling point to move from Tuggers.
I definitely blame LNP for your woes, and that of the woes down south…. some of who are still waiting for NBN to come along and be inadequate :(.
I'm happy with my NBN
No issue and stream 4k without hiccups.The original plan was flawed. The proposal to roll out to the regional areas first, although noble was ridiculous, that blatant we will fun fibre to the premise for units was also stupid.
Had they rolled fibre into the most dense areas first, they would have picked up more of the younger gen who happily pay for the top tier plans making the service profitable, they could have then progressively rolled out out the out suburbs.
Not just doing fibre to the basement in the cities let that profitable business fall the way of TPG and others who were able to offer the service quicker. Most of these in city units would have had reasonable quality copper allowing for 100MB or possibly 1000MB, they could have come along after and started upgrades.
Abbott would still have stopped it and nothing much would be different.
Democracy allowed people to vote for the worst NBN option.
What’s next for people power I wonder?
Since so much money was “saved” by using third world internet, it’s time to drastically raise taxes on the high flyers and young elite and provide UBI for all classes.
That would be fair in light of the broken NBN chosen
Seems like monarchy is a much better option. Oh wait…
I blame a combination of Rupert Murdoch and Malcolm Turnbull.
Sounds radical but perhaps we could move from a culture of blame to a culture of support. I support the group who is going to continue to come up with future building plans instead of the ones who show up for the sweet paycheque and post-political life business appointments and $200k+ 'pension'. Blaming keeps everyone fixed firmly on the past as an excellent distraction from what is not being done for the future. Everyone is so caught up in slinging mud around that they're not asking the politicians what they're going to do about it.
It's because the only thing Australians seem to be good at is tearing other people down telling others how stupid they are in comparison to what they seem to know.
It'd be a nice cultural shift for people to be more supportive and accepting of discussion about more than their own side to a topic, we also need there to be much greater accountability for politicians and the media but well here we are.
It's also a spectacular troll thread with a newscorp worthy bait title by OP, hats off to that. I hope they get the job they've applied for in media!
I love the NBN. Went live about 8 weeks ago, FTC, installation was perfect, constantly getting 95down & 38up.
Stumped up for a decent router, no dramas.
These comments make me think I'm Lucky!
Don't read too much into the comments. Many complainers won't be happy with your connection and want Gb.
You're damn right we won't be. We're not a 3rd world country to still be dabbling with 100Mb connections.
High speeds feel good when upgrading from ADSL. Remember that FTTC was not part of the Turnbull plan. Once it became obvious that FTTN had serious issues, NBN had to introduce FTTC on the quiet while pretending that it was always part of the plan.
For me, working from home due to COVID has exposed the reliability issues of NBN. I've had multiple half day outages during working hours. When I'm in remote conferences it seems that there's always somebody having issues with their voice breaking up.
https://www.canstarblue.com.au/internet/most-australians-sat….
I get 70/30 on FTTN. Would it be great to have 250mbp, 500mb, or 1GB? Sure, why not. But for most people, they seem happy with the NBN.
Most people are happy with 20 mbps connection which suffice their need. Me and my wife working from home and with few other IOT devices and mobile devices, would have been better to have atleast 100mbps. But here we are stuck at 25mbps FTTN. And add to our agony, the neighbours on opposite side have all FTTP all houses on my side are FTTN. :-(
If you own the property, you can ask NBN to upgrade you and they will give you a price.
I have already checked with few people and they said it will be very costly. At the moment 25mbps is manageable. When it is not, then will surely have to go that path.
@dharmesht: Yep, don't rush if you don't need it. Cost will vary depending on your distance to the node, but it won't be "cheap", sharing the cost with others in the street also helps,
When you are ready head over to https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/thread/97wjj0k9
Make sure you use QoS.
Most people are happy with 20 mbps connection which suffice their need
I agree lol.
I wonder how many people would benefit over 100mbps and how much would it actually benefit them. And then there's the issue to how many people are actually willing to pay for it.
Of course it would be great to future-proof our internet infrastructure, but I wonder what other think we will actually need it for? 8k/16k netflix would be great. As would lower ping and better stability.
lol Move on.
LNP completely screwed us.
Tens of BILLIONS of dollars in payments to Telstra. 1-2 BILLION a year in "fees" for the unforeseeable future.
What did we get for all that money? Shit.
The public has been utterly robbed.
ALP made the deal with Telstra not the LNP
That's not true. The LNP were the ones who renegotiated the deal, and now the nbn has to pay 1-2 billion a year and has to keep up repairs on the conduits
The NBN is actually a worse disaster than you all think. Because as badly done as it was, the popular wisdom blames completely the wrong things for it, so the next government faced with a similar situation will make exactly the same mistakes. Irrespective of which political party is in power. We haven't learned the right lesson from it.
The new Royal Adelaide Hospital (nRAH) is the other obvious example of what went wrong with the NBN. The nRAH is the most expensive public building ever built in Australia. It cost four times as much per bed as the new PRIVATE Adelaide hospital built after it. In the case of the nRAH the government was persuaded to build it, and how much it could be built for, then went to the experts who told the government all the things they thought it "needed" to have to be done "properly".
The experts, as experts do, massively over-designed it. We didn't need three optical fibres to each premises. One working. One spare. And one in case the property was developed into multiple residences. We didn't need a box that gave you four data ports each able to connect to a different RSPs. We didn't need two phone ports, or in fact any. That sort of stupidity pushed the cost up massively. And the government, as governments do, suffered from "edifice complex", that it will be something they will be remembered for long after they are gone, and the bigger and more expensive it is the better they will be remembered. So they kept agreeing as the price went up and up. Then inevitably the other political party won government, saw it would be Labor that history would give the credit to for it, and they would get the massive bill, and took the axe to it.
A big long term expensive infrastructure project should have been sold to both parties so the opposition wouldn't abandon it when it got into power. And the experts should have been prevented by someone with more political nouse from over-engineering it and pushing the price up to the point where it was no longer a commercially viable exercise.
Labor saw the NBN as a bludgeon to bash the opposition politically. To show how foresighted they were. So of course when the other lot got in they used it to bash Labor for being fiscally irresponsible. And the technologists doing the design used it to get what they wanted, a super high speed internet connection for themselves, with someone else (the taxpayers) paying, rather than building what the taxpayers wanted for their money, which was high speed at moderate cost. No-one was looking after the interests of the majority of the public whose money was being spend building it. It was all me, me, me, me. And that continues on every forum that "debates" the issue.
That election probably was won / lost on other points too, not just the NBN, so it's not really fair to boil it down to a single issue.
I'm not fond of either party, and our political system isn't perfect by a long shot, but at the end of the day it's a democracy and we get what we vote for.
Sorry I can't hear you over my 500mbps NBN connection
does the m stand for millibaud or mycrobauds?
https://i.ibb.co/QJCR0Zh/FB-IMG-1600132070310.jpg
People choose which house to buy/rent based on a number of things, I treat internet the same and made sure I moved to move to a place that had FTTH.
To keep the NBN “off the books” and not part of the federal budget, the Rudd government classified the project as an “investment” rather than just government spending. That facade has been maintained by the Coalition.
The Gillard government struck an $11 billion deal with Telstra in a desperate attempt to get the project to fruition…
Ironically, a big reason the NBN is so expensive is the overly generous deal the Gillard government struck with the company back in 2012…
https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2020/08/nbn-divided-and-con…
Smoke and mirrors mate.
At the end of the day, the Liberal Government (with Abbott at the helm) cooked this goose good and proper for all eternity.
Gillard makes a bad deal and it's the Libs fault interesting logic… I also love how you refuted Ozhunters sourced point with data and reason not just a stupid cliche and blaming all future bad outcomes on one decision.
I think the idea was pretty silly to begin with, 95% of the connections would ever provide fruitfull to the invested capital.
“Do we really want to invest $50 billion of hard earned taxpayers money in what is essentially a video entertainment system?” Tony Abbott.
Quote of the century.
Wow good call from Tony. We shouldn't, the private enterprises would do a better job to build the entertainment system.
Exhibit A) Your Honor.
Wow.
You just can't make this shyzen up, can you, UFO? lol
how is it wrong? Any business school or hospital that needed higher speed internet already had it.
National Baloney Network
Keeping Australia third world and real
And the voting masses agree
I feel like there should have been an independent committee to oversee the NBN, so the original vision of such a large infrastructure project would be achieved. COVID-19 has just accelerated digitization and Work-From-Home. Imagine if the government building the Harbour Bridge claimed "There's too much road capacity. No one would require 10 road lanes on the bridge. Two will do."
Rather than throw insults why don't you explain why?