Humanity and Selfishness

nightqueen on 08/11/2020 - 08:41

Are humans innately self interested and creatures of pleasure seeking or have we learnt from our parents and modelling of behaviour?

I observe my young children and they seem to look after their own self interest First and I wonder if it's a form of 'survival mechanism'

It seems that humans inequality and conflict will continue to exist on Earth with our selfishness. It seems like humans are defaulted to be selfish and we have to make a conscious and physical effort to be altruistic and selfless.

Poll Options

  • 84
    Innate selfish human heart/soul (nature)
  • 26
    Learned selfish nature from society and parents (nurture)
Health & Beauty

Comments

  • mbck on 08/11/2020 - 08:44
    +1

    I think they're all learned from a very young age; both good and bad behaviours. They are first and foremost influenced by their parents behaviour in the first few years of development.

    • nightqueen on 08/11/2020 - 08:50

      So if the majority of humans are selfish, then those selfish behaviours from parents keep getting passed down to children. Sounds like a vicious selfish cycle in society.

      • mbck on 08/11/2020 - 09:41
        +2

        Hey we are human beings. You can choose what you want to do and to be.

        You can realise your shortcomings and learn to be better. Yes it's hard to break your bad habits, but hard isn't impossible.

        And really, the crime is knowing your short comings and not doing anything about it. The other crime is not being open to bettering yourself, always thinking you are right.

        We are naturally imperfect. There are always things we can do better.

        Knowing when to be kind and when to be firm.

        Knowing when to be emotional and when to be strong.

        Knowing when to fight and when to back off.

        Just my 2c

  • whooah1979 on 08/11/2020 - 08:48
    +1

    The most important person in the world is yourself.

    If you can’t take care of yourself how are you expected to care for someone else?

  • mskeggs on 08/11/2020 - 08:51
    +4

    Self interest is routinely maximised by longer term altruistic behaviour.
    You can’t expect this to be understood unless it is taught/demonstrated.
    It doesn’t mean that inequality and conflict are a given, and there is good evidence this is in decline globally over the longer term.

    For what it is worth, I saw plenty of examples of my kids when they were toddlers sharing with others (and being shared with) because they saw another kid didn’t get a lolly or toy or whatever. I don’t think early behaviour is black and white.

    • nightqueen on 08/11/2020 - 09:19

      'Self interest is routinely maximised by longer term altruistic behaviour'

      Is humanity's goal to maximise self interest? Is that the purpose of our existence and meaning in our life?

      Self interest seems to be the biggest motivator for human behaviour whether for selfish or altruistic behaviours.

      • mskeggs on 08/11/2020 - 16:34
        +1

        Consider if you were acting in a way that wasn’t in the interest of humanity, you wouldn’t be acting very ethically.
        If I vote, for example, in the interests of Australia, I am weighing up the best outcome for everyone’s self interest. Even if I vote so a majority pay more tax, for example, I do it because I think the outcome for everyone will be better than the alternative.

        Self interest is not exclusive to collective interest, and collective interest is usually aligned with some measure of self interest. If I donate to African aid relief, it is objectively against my immediate self interest, as I am a little poorer. But it is very likely to make the world I live in a better place.

  • poboy on 08/11/2020 - 08:57
    +1

    I have no research, but I imagine it would vary between intergroup dynamics (securing a share for your group) and intragroup dynamics (getting your share from within your tribe without harming the tribe or your standing).

    • ozbjunkie on 09/11/2020 - 08:12

      Yep, that is just about the cutting edge of research right there.

      Self interest
      Group interest
      Altruism within group (in search of reciprocity)
      Scarcity leads to greater ingroup favouritism (and negative outgroup bias due to competition for resources)

      Long story short, most people are pretty easygoing when they are not threatened, and very protective and territorial when they perceive scarcity of resources or opportunity.

      • nightqueen on 09/11/2020 - 13:35

        Yes reminds me of the panic buying of toilet paper and canned food during early Covid. People become protective, territorial when they see toilet paper disappearing.

  • garetz on 08/11/2020 - 09:07
    +1

    That's evolution for you, if humans were not selfish we would of become extinct a long time ago.

    • Kangal on 08/11/2020 - 14:41
      +1

      It's both genetic, and also memetic.
      Almost all animals display both selfishness AND selflessness, and this ranges from the highest apes to lowliest amphibians.

      A false perfection, or utopia, is often daydreamed by people… especially when it comes to ideas around society, government, and religion. However, reality shows it is a very mixed bag, and changes with time, and the place/peoples. And the factors that change here is both genetic (humans) and memetic (culture). So having only TWO poll options above is definitely wrong. It would be like if I said "most people of Venezuela/Caracas are evil" and "most people of Sweden/Stockholm are good" we know that is factually incorrect.

  • ShannonN on 08/11/2020 - 09:22

    I observe my young children and they seem to look after their own self interest First and I wonder if it's a form of 'survival mechanism'

    whatever the cause, what are you doing as a parent to retrain and remove those unwanted self serving traits?

    Many parents give small kids too much, usually electronic babysitting machines kids cry get a toy, kids learn to control their parents etc

    • nightqueen on 08/11/2020 - 09:25

      I would like the learn and understand the cause of the self interest. To get to the 'root of the problem'

      • ShannonN on 08/11/2020 - 09:28

        I understand that but again, what are you going to do to break that behaviour you admit to see in your children?

      • ozbjunkie on 09/11/2020 - 08:14

        Self interest isn't a problem, particularly in young people.

        Although self interest to the exclusion of all else, that can be a problem.

  • perhaps on 08/11/2020 - 09:24
    +1

    broden'd

  • Bid Sniper on 08/11/2020 - 09:35

    Agreed, its survival, they love hide and seek, thats a survival tactic to hide from predators. Ticklish, learn how to defend themselves in a fight. Climbing, evade predators. All natural.

    Kids growing up, start basic to survive then taught (by good parenting) to function in a society.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

    • nightqueen on 08/11/2020 - 09:49
      +1

      Basic fight or flight survival mechanism

  • Ocker on 08/11/2020 - 09:41
    +1

    Humanity and Selfishness are a byproduct of the environment in which a person is raised. Mainly through necessity, certain races/cultures have a dog-at-dog attitude in life.

  • loulou1 on 08/11/2020 - 09:51
    +3

    One year at Christmas I was staying with my sister, the children had gotten up way too early for her liking (she had a newborn) so she told them to go back to bed for another hour and she would get up with them after that to see if Santa had been. I heard the children and told them to come to my room where they were welcome to play quietly with me until mum was ready to get up. They each brought their Christmas stocking to the room (mum had said this was ok). So I had three kids in the room each with their stocking and I joked that Santa had been unkind to me and left me nothing. The youngest (3 or 4 years old) handed his stocking to me and said ‘you can have mine, I don’t need it’. He meant it too. The other two children then began taking items from their stocking to give to him. Of course I didn’t accept a single thing but their gestures made me really happy.
    I don’t think each person is innately selfish. I think our level of selfishness is a mixture of who we are AND how we were raised.

    • ozbjunkie on 09/11/2020 - 08:16
      -1

      That's lovely. Reminds me of the "parents ate all the Halloween candy" prank on YouTube. Some of the kids were like "in a bit sad and disappointed, but I would have given it to you anyway so it's ok".

      Of course other kids were screaming bloody murder.

  • AustriaBargain on 08/11/2020 - 10:04

    There's no such thing as a truly 100% selfless act. Well maybe there is, but not for the average person. If doing the right thing makes you feel good, then you have slightly selfish reasons for being selfless, which is to make yourself feel good, or to lower your own empathetic suffering of a situation you're seeing, or whatever. Chasing good feels isn't really the best way about solving problems though, otherwise religion would have solved all the world's problems by now, instead of just making them worse.

    • ozbjunkie on 09/11/2020 - 08:20
      +1

      I'm familiar with that theory, but it suffers from the fallacy of no true Scotsman.

      If you are altruistic, but it's to someone you know, then that's not real altruism.

      If you're altruistic to someone you don't know, and it makes you feel good, then that's not real altruism.

      If you're altruistic to someone you don't know, and it doesn't make you feel good (like, to pardon someone who trespasses against you), then you're just doing it to look good or in hopes that person will repay that kindness, so then that's not real altruism.

      And so the argument goes on.

      It's essentially question begging, in the sense that one's opponent basically decides that there is no such thing as altruism and therefore any apparent act of altruism can be explained by a conscious or unconscious benefit for the altruist, which can be material or immaterial, or merely hopes or wished for.

      • AustriaBargain on 09/11/2020 - 09:12

        I disagree that that fallacy is even applicable here.

        • SlickMick on 09/11/2020 - 10:12

          Sure seemed applicable to me.

          Do you have children? Or someone you love? Unless taking a bullet for someone is selfish (coz this world sucks and you get to leave and the person you saved doesn't??), I think that most people are 1 situation away from committing a selfless act. I certainly hope I am.

          • AustriaBargain on 09/11/2020 - 10:31

            @SlickMick: What is selfless about doing something for your own kids? They have your own DNA, they are your lineage after you die.

          • ozbjunkie on 09/11/2020 - 13:01

            @SlickMick: Thanks.

            Yeah I think people do altruistic things all the time. Allowing someone to go first in line, or offering to allow someone to use gym equipment first, these simple kinda of altruism occur every day.

            I don't stand there cleaning myself about what a top bloke I am if I let someone go first.

            And the other day, I did push in at the supermarket (I had 2 items worth $10 bucks, and a $10 note in my hand) and I was in massive rush, and felt like a rotten bell-end for doing it.

        • ozbjunkie on 09/11/2020 - 12:58

          Want to explain your reasoning?

          What, even in theory, could qualify as altruism? Or is there no such thing as altruism because even if I forego something for a member of a alien species who will never visit earth, then really I have not been altruistic because the mere philosophical idea of altruism has brought me some pleasure of engaging in an interaction with an alien life form, and so that's a benefit, and therefore that's not altruism?

  • pegaxs on 08/11/2020 - 12:36

    Both. I think some things are learnt and some are inhereted from those around us. Some things we need to be selfish about, such as the things we need to do to survive, but the actions of Karen's is totally a taught or learnt condition.

  • capslock on 08/11/2020 - 12:38

    What about kids born into cults where all of your possessions must be surrendered to the cult leader?

  • kanmen on 08/11/2020 - 13:54
    -1

    I believe that cultural norms also can dictate levels of self-interest that we inherit at childhood. Some cultures heavily place emphasis on family values and shared interests, whereas other place high value on individual freedoms and self interest. The former can be toxic in terms of developing a self-identity and sense of self needs to the point of people pleasing and the latter can be toxic in creating increased self-importance and narcissism.

    Most behaviours are taught behaviours from our parents/the environment around us. I personally don't think I have to make a conscious effort in being altruistic or working for the common good- I come from a family who volunteered their time doing things for others because we thought it was the right thing to do.

  • Peanut money on 08/11/2020 - 14:45
    +4

    Nietzsche’s paradigm here is something akin to pity. By extending a helping hand to another person we are acknowledging their failure and weakness. We are placing ourselves above them and, in essence, announcing that we are superior to them and must help them because they have failed. This is an incredibly harsh and oversimplified explanation but does have a certain element of truth to it.

  • ozhunter on 08/11/2020 - 16:47

    It seems like humans are defaulted to be selfish and we have to make a conscious and physical effort to be altruistic and selfless.

    I'm assuming being selfish = bad; altruistic and selfless = good?

    Hmm wonder what makes that so…

  • iridiumstem on 08/11/2020 - 17:00

    The answer would be very very very very very very convoluted. The entire debacle of nature vs nurture spans itself throughout the entire field of psychology and more… so eh. And there is the interaction between the two like how environment and behaviours affects how the genes work (epigenetics), so on and so forth. Very convoluted topic that in my opinion would go into philosophy.

    So, without talking about the topic, on the topic of nature vs nurture, the naturalistic fallacy I think has to be mentioned at least.
    It is a fallacy where people argue "what is" is "what ought to be". What is natural should be what it should be basically.

    Basically, even if people are biologically coded to be selfish or selfless, that should not say anything about whether it is the right thing to do or not.

  • Trying2SaveABuck on 08/11/2020 - 23:00

    no option for Both?

  • Willco88 on 09/11/2020 - 08:01

    Self preservation is #1

  • TheOtherLeft on 09/11/2020 - 08:29

    Humans are innately selfish…however it's up to parents to teach their children empathy and compassion.

  • Candour on 09/11/2020 - 09:33

    You may find answers on https://www.facebook.com/WithShakti. Mind conditions our selves until we forget the true self and soul within and embrace the material sel constructed by mind for us, by us. We need to learn that our life purpose is not material self-interest which all material minds have, but to rediscover our true self and live lie accordingly. There is a deep body o knowledge so you should read all posts in date order and follow the page or daily deepening insights.

  • OzHunterNSW on 09/11/2020 - 10:12

    Look at yourself… you were their example that they now model themselves upon.

  • [Deactivated] on 09/11/2020 - 10:59

    The last 4 years under agent orange proves that humans are selfish and driven by fear.

    • LFO on 09/11/2020 - 13:15

      And stupidity when dreaming that 4 year of color will improve anything.

      Or just chronic stupidity for repeatedly seeking colors rather than substance.

  • MontyMacaw on 09/11/2020 - 11:26

    Your kids sound selfish. Own it.

  • LFO on 09/11/2020 - 13:12

    We are naturally self-centered as we are fighting survivors. Me, me and then me. What else is out-there?

    However as we mature/age/weaken/experience we learn than as a whole, as a coherent society we can achieve much more with far less effort, be relatively safer and more keen to settle and stop roaming (which might bring some anxiety as youthful bravado diminishes by time).

    So, in a way, we continue being equally selfish and self-centered.
    But we do it more efficiently, as a group where every member achieves more doing less.

  • terrys on 09/11/2020 - 14:00

    I can't tick either, as I believe we are born with pre-dispositions due to our surroundings while in the womb - peoples voices, the foods our mothers ate, the temperature, the presence or absence of wholesale pillage and warfare, climate variations etc, and then learn by imitation, and just doing what returns us a reward as we grow.

    There is an "aselfish" character to this - a young child will seek punishment and pain as such a reward if the alternative is a lack of touch and attention, as the sad natural experiments many orphanges provided evidence for.

    Just as sad is the opposite extreme, where a toddler's every whim is catered for, any baulk or impediment to their self-esteem pushed away, and every contest subject to one rule only - the toddler is the winner or the game doesn't count.

    I was thinking of Ivar the Boneless, but he obviously never had to suffer the debilitating affect of spurs on places he don't got.

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