Booked in NSW School Zone 18/12/2020 at 3.34 PM

Lchrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 07:58
Last edited 15/01/2021 - 14:56 by 1 other user

EDIT 2 - time to fire up the trolls. Why do people have to be such smarties??? I asked a simple question. I have seen this happen on other posts. Do they troll social media sites? If it gives you a kick, keep going and your small mind will be happy.

To the genuine posters, thank you.

EDIT - 3 relevant posts so far. 2 successful in Court, 1 not. The rest of the posts tell me the law, that school zone speed limits are a good thing, etc. I know that.

My wife was clocked doing 49 km/h in 40 zone after turning onto the main road where the camera is. In NSW, 17/12 and 18/12 were teacher education days with no pupils. However, in our area (booked at Gateshead), teachers stayed back after school on many days to do the development work. Therefore, if anyone at all were in schools it would have been admin staff, teachers maybe picking up stuff, etc.

Has anyone had any luck in NSW getting off a school zone speeding fine under somewhat similar circumstances? The 10 year clean record does not count for this offence, red light fines, etc.

BTW, she was going closer to 60 and was slowing down when she realised but obviously too late.

Automotive

Comments

  • hmac on 13/01/2021 - 08:04
    +51

    You have no chance. It is a school zone, and it was not officially school holidays yet regardless of what the school was doing. The lights were flashing for school zone. Pay the fine and move on :)

    • Caped Baldy on 13/01/2021 - 09:02
      +2

      Somehow, no lights for this particular school zone. https://goo.gl/maps/4Z1b5B6Wib8LAgvA7

      Really should have them for every school zone by now. That said, it's a well known camera for the area.

      • hmac on 13/01/2021 - 09:06
        +7

        Lights are not a requirement, the signs have timings listed :)

        • Caped Baldy on 13/01/2021 - 09:09
          +14

          I don't currently have kids and even when I was at school I barely knew when the terms operated. Lights would make life a lot easier and get rid of the people that slow down to 30km/h.

          OP's wife was lucky it wasn't 10km/h plus over

          • modiika on 15/01/2021 - 14:11

            @Caped Baldy: agree i'm constantly confused about when terms are in or out. Light's should be mandatory probably make more people comply and prevent people from accidentally not complying.

      • andresampras on 13/01/2021 - 10:22
        +9

        Does anyone else wonder why they can't just have digital LED speed signs in school zone areas?

        Is it just the cost factor?

        Digital speed signs are already used on highways (toll roads, now that I think of it).
        Mobile digital signs are already used to show you your car's speed on some smaller roads.

        I can't see why councils can't introduce them for school zones. If child safety is the priority, surely removing all this confusion about timings and school holidays would go out the window if they had proper speed signage. A lot of people who speed through school zones these days do it unknowingly. Yes there is driver responsibilty involved but the unclear signage is a major factor.

        It works the other way too. A lot of drivers slow down to 40 during school holidays. Unnecessarily confusing, frustrating, unsafe.

        • Caped Baldy on 13/01/2021 - 10:25
          +10

          I don't believe Councils are responsible for speeding enforcement or the signs.

          I'm in the camp that it's revenue raising. Putting lights in would greatly reduce risk so not sure why the authorities don't.

        • Scrooge McDuck on 13/01/2021 - 21:46
          +5

          Is it just the cost factor?

          You propose governments to spend more money to collect less revenue. Hhhmmm…

          • andresampras on 13/01/2021 - 22:07
            +1

            @Scrooge McDuck: ….but also to reduce child deaths and emotional damage for all involved.

            here's a suggestion: spend the money to install digital signs on all school zones, then bump up the school zone speeding fine to double what it is now.

            Revenue issue solved.

            • deme on 14/01/2021 - 22:09

              @andresampras: Or remove the signs and increase the hours mobile speed camera operate. Extra revenue++

              Oh you wanted to save lives not gain revenue?

        • singingwolf on 14/01/2021 - 08:55

          Yeah that's a good idea

        • deme on 14/01/2021 - 22:10
          +1

          This would be awesome, a lot of us have only a vague idea when school holidays are so I normally drive 40 anyway.

        • modiika on 15/01/2021 - 14:12

          I have seen a few in victoria that seem to adjust to the school zone speed. But not many.

      • Brian McGee on 13/01/2021 - 12:32
        +2

        There are lights on the main road;
        https://www.google.com/maps/@-32.9871426,151.6913478,3a,20y,…
        And signs, road arrow and painted signs on the road in the side street
        https://www.google.com/maps/@-32.9849952,151.6927965,3a,25.5…

        • Caped Baldy on 13/01/2021 - 12:37

          Thanks for the correction. I was only looking on the left.

        • spaij on 19/01/2021 - 21:54

          The left sign on the road in the side street is partially obstructed by the parking sign.

      • Typical16-bitEnjoyer on 15/01/2021 - 08:34

        Move slightly down the road. Big ass sign and flashing lights.

  • [Deactivated] on 13/01/2021 - 08:18

    What do the signs say?

  • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 08:24
    -4

    Clearly state limit and time period. Just wondering if anyone has got away with a warning as no students were at school as no classes

    • jonagrah on 13/01/2021 - 08:25
      +6

      I think that says it all. I don't like your chances.

    • emblurr on 15/01/2021 - 11:19
      +2

      I got out of one. Doing 49km/hr in school 40 zone. Was on the 19th December when the official date for school terms ended on the 20th. However this was a private school that had closed on the 12th. Wrote a letter outlining the school had closed and there were no kids and they let it go as a warning. So yes it is possible.

      • chrisharry53 on 15/01/2021 - 19:01
        -2

        emblurr - really? Did Revenue NSW issue a warning? Do you mind telling me the year and the school as that is a precedent? I am aware though that is the school involved wasn’t officially closed, I would have to probably go to Court and rely on the magistrate exercising commonsense.

      • chrisharry53 on 16/01/2021 - 08:08

        Someone has asked if you have proof - did you keep the letter from Revenue NSW?

  • holdenmg on 13/01/2021 - 08:24
    +7

    Speed zones
    School speed zones operate on all notified school days, including school development days.

    https://education.nsw.gov.au/public-schools/going-to-a-publi…

    • Scrooge McDuck on 13/01/2021 - 21:50
      +9

      Won't somebody please think of the… teachers?

  • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 08:28
    -4

    I am aware of the rules. Has anyone got off is all I am asking. I expect nobody has but you never know as they may have written a really good submission 😀

    • Veritas96 on 13/01/2021 - 08:37
      +5

      too optimistic if you're hoping to get off scot free

    • [Deactivated] on 13/01/2021 - 08:47
      +5

      please give it a go and let us know the outcome

    • tomsco on 13/01/2021 - 08:54
      +7

      Nope. Nobody has gotten off.

      • ThithLord on 13/01/2021 - 09:30

        Pull the other one

        • DonWilson on 15/01/2021 - 01:07
          +1

          Yes. Everyone has gotten off.

    • holdenmg on 13/01/2021 - 09:25
      +2

      You would need to advance necessity or duress etc.

      See a Solicitor to advance such a submission if those circumstances existed.

      • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 10:20

        Thanks for the helpful reply however neither do apply.

    • LinkJah on 15/01/2021 - 08:20

      I know a teacher that got booked at her own school with the same argument you have. Tried to get off by saying "but there were no children", end result didn't get off the fine and was told something along the lines of "you should have known better".

      • chrisharry53 on 15/01/2021 - 08:27

        Thanks as this helps more than only 2 other responses. So, the tally now is 2 successful and 1 not. Appears it is up to the magistrate and other circumstances. Do you know if this happened at the end of term 4? I think the circumstances are different in some way as my neighbour teacher had the last 2 days off and schools were effectively closed from the Wednesday. Was she attending PD that day?

        • LinkJah on 15/01/2021 - 09:31
          +1

          No problem!

          Yes, end of Term 4 and the same circumstances you are talking about-teachers and students had finished up for the year on the Wednesday. She was just going in to get a few things from her class on the Thursday. This was 2-3 years ago. She sent a letter for clemency as she had a clean record, which was denied and I don't recall her taking it any further.

          As a school counsellor, I can attest to schools still being a busy hub on these last two days and can understand why they still enforce the law. You may not have factored in that many schools hire out their halls to care providers e.g. Holiday Care and Out of Hours School Care. There very well could have been 20+ kids present that day. There could also be office staff, school executives (principals etc), general assistants (grounds people), cleaners, parents (coming and going), teachers buttoning things up for the year or getting a start on the next, and teachers making up the PD they may have missed (that would have given them those last two days off). As silly as it sounds, it is also common for students to arrive on the last two days as, some parents and students forget/don't realise that school has finished. On the other hand, the school you discuss may have been completely empty.

          You may get lucky and have a magistrate that is lenient due to the circumstances. I would check with your neighbour regarding the factors above before putting it before a magistrate though. Keep us posted, would be interested to see how you go.

          • chrisharry53 on 15/01/2021 - 10:00
            -1

            @LinkJah: Thanks again. I have made more enquiries. Revenue NSW cannot let you off under their guidelines, only a magistrate can after taking all the circumstances into account. The fine issued in my name and I will wait until near the due date to nominate my wife as the actual driver. The extra time will allow me to check with the school what was happening on that day. If there were no students at all and gates possibly even locked with access only by ancillary staff, I will ask if they will provide these details to me in writing. I will also get a statement from the neighbour.

            This is irrelevant but my father was a solicitor and a barrister. I also worked with State Tax legislation for 40 plus years. There is a thing called ex gratia relief when the circumstances warrant it. In the same way a magistrate can issue a Section 10 to negate a fine and loss of demerit points even if an offence did occur, which I have fully admitted.

            • LinkJah on 15/01/2021 - 10:10

              @chrisharry53: Maybe she should have fought a bit harder! Given we had Holiday Care in operation at the time, I wouldn't have like those odds.

              Good on you for taking it in to your own hands and doing your due diligence!

              • chrisharry53 on 15/01/2021 - 10:18
                +1

                @LinkJah: We will obviously pay up if there were students at the school on that day, especially if school buses were running on 17 and 18/12, whether or not any students actually caught the buses.

  • EFC94 on 13/01/2021 - 08:45
    +10

    Your best chance to get out of it is going the speed limit in a school zone next time.

    • GG57 on 13/01/2021 - 08:53

      "…going below the speed limit in a school zone next time."
      Fixed it for you.

  • Hellfire on 13/01/2021 - 09:03
    +1

    The initial appeal will be denied because you did break the law. You'll need to go to court in order to get off and that will be an expensive process if you want a hope in succeeding.

    • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 10:20
      +3

      Thanks for the response.

  • SF3 on 13/01/2021 - 09:10
    +6

    To save most of us time and OP waiting for more (same old) comments.

    This was the most recent post from another School Zone deal with a 10 year "clean" record
    (EDIT on that post, OP got triggered/salty when he couldn't get confirmation bias - let see what happens here…).

    TLTR, School Zone infringement = no leniency

    • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 10:06

      Not trying to get off due to a clean record. Clearly stated in my post.

      • hmac on 13/01/2021 - 10:48
        +1

        But then why mention it in both posts? Your clean record is never going to help with school offences

  • EightImmortals on 13/01/2021 - 09:53

    So what exactly did the sign say as there are different types? Some have 40kph between certain hours, some say 'School days'.

    We need more info.

    • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 10:08
      +1

      Says between certain hours. My wife clearly did exceed the limit and admits that.

      • jv on 13/01/2021 - 10:32
        +5

        My wife clearly did exceed the limit and admits that.

        Then she should just pay the fine…

        Otherwise, if she feels she is exempt from the law, or she is part of the Trump family, she can deny it and go to court.

      • pharkurnell on 13/01/2021 - 10:32
        +8

        My wife clearly did exceed the limit and admits that.

        Case closed.

      • brendanm on 13/01/2021 - 14:34
        +2

        My wife clearly did exceed the limit and admits that.

        Then what is your reason for having the fine and points waived?

  • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 10:17
    -4

    Thanks for the few comments that were polite. I got issued the fine as car registered in my name. I will nominate her, wait for the new fine to come and then send a letter to Revenue NSW anyway. If it was a pupil free day at the start of term I would not bother but I was only talking to a teacher on Wednesday 16/12 who told me that day was their last, taking school kids to the movies and school shut Thurs and Friday as all teachers agreed to stay back and do the development after school hours and have the 17 and 18/12 off. If this was a Statewide Agreement, and not just a local one, the Education website should have been updated and RMS advised to adjust camera speed to speed applicable on the relevant road.

    • Eeples on 19/01/2021 - 13:45

      It think its because if a student does attend school by mistake in the morning and no-one is home at their house the school most likely needs to babysit.
      Then the student does need to leave the school in the afternoon.

  • Hithere on 13/01/2021 - 10:20
    +5

    Zero tolerance for speeding in school zones.

    Pay the fine, put the experience down to a life lesson, there's no way you will get out of it.

    • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 10:24
      -3

      I agree there must be no tolerance but why have the area treated as a school zone when not even teachers are there due to an industrial agreement (I assume) let alone kids? Non thinking or money grabbing in my view.

      • jv on 13/01/2021 - 10:28
        +7

        but why have the area treated as a school zone

        Because that day was part of the school term, and restrictions apply during the school term…

        Your argument is like trying to get out of a red light fine by saying "but there were no cars coming the other way…"

        • Woodinski on 13/01/2021 - 11:32
          -2

          Your red light argument is flawed JT.

          The purpose of the red light camera is not to fine you if cars are coming the other way, it is to prevent you going through in case there are cars coming the other way (doesn't matter if there is or isn't). The purpose of the school zone is to prevent children from being hit by a vehicle (large concentration of children around school coupled with their inability to follow road rules). Your argument would only hold true if it was a school day but no children were around . I was speeding "but there were no kids around…" (i.e. there was the possibility of hitting a child but there wasn't one at the time).

          This whole case of speeding in this case is a classic example of a rule which does not address the problem which people blindly follow ("iTs ThE RuLeS tHoUgH!!!). The law was created to prevent children from being seriously injured or killed (good rule). When the risk of that is zero, the rule should not apply (i.e. weekends and school holidays), also a good rule as it shows that the rule is being applied with reason. The fact it was applied in this case shows stupidity on the enforcement makers as school holidays have technically started at this school (the teachers being there don't count as they are not who the rule was created for). The case should be thrown out on review, but it wont be because it is easy money in the pockets for the government.

          • jv on 13/01/2021 - 11:35
            +2

            @Woodinski:

            Your red light argument is flawed JT.

            Nah… Woodonkey…

          • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 18:21
            -2

            @Woodinski: Exactly, commonsense

          • gromit on 15/01/2021 - 08:41
            +1

            @Woodinski: likewise school zones aren't there to fine you if kids are around, it is to prevent you speeding in case kids are around. trying to guess when kids are around is dangerous, consistent school zones and times make it safer for everyone otherwise suddenly you will have the excuse "I thought it was a pupil free day".

  • Ocker on 13/01/2021 - 10:24
    +6

    They should double the fines for exceeding the limit in school zones, there can be no acceptable excuses. Just because a person has a "clean record" does not make them less likely to hit a kid.

    • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 10:25
      +4

      Exactly, if kids are at school that day and/or the day before, which they were not.

      • jv on 13/01/2021 - 10:29
        -2

        if kids are at school that day and/or the day before, which they were not.

        That is irrelevant

        • EightImmortals on 13/01/2021 - 10:34
          +4

          It's irrelevant that there were no kids there to hit? I would have thought that was the MOST relevant point. Might not get you anywhere in a clownworld courtroom, but in the real world the school speed zones are there to protect kids from getting hit, if there were NO KIDS there on the day then there was no risk of that happening. Following your logic they might as well just put up 30kph signs in that area at all times regardless of school holidays or not???

          • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 10:56
            +1

            @EightImmortals: Exactly Eightimmortals. It was agreed there would be no kids and RMS should have been advised to turn off cameras for 'school speeding' and have set as outside school days, times, whatever. Money grabbing and ridiculous. If it was a last minute decision, fine, but it was worked out with teachers and Education Department will in advance.

            • jv on 13/01/2021 - 10:58
              -1

              @chrisharry53:

              It was agreed there would be no kids and RMS should have been advised to turn off cameras

              No reason to turn off cameras if you are still breaking the law…

            • Jono05 on 13/01/2021 - 14:11
              +3

              @chrisharry53: School days are gazetted. A single school just can’t change the staff development days for the whole state. A school can change their own days but that doesn’t change which days are gazetted and which days the school zones operate.

          • jv on 13/01/2021 - 10:57

            @EightImmortals:

            It's irrelevant that there were no kids there to hit?

            Correct.
            The law says that the limits apply during the school term…

            In the same way that you must stop at red lights, even if there are no cars on the intersecting road…

            • EightImmortals on 13/01/2021 - 11:17
              -2

              @jv: And after you have stopped at the red light, if there are STILL no cars around is it OK to proceed through the intersection? After all, I thought the relevant point of having traffic lights is to stop people crashing into each other so if there are no other cars around then why not continue safely on your way?

              • jv on 13/01/2021 - 11:18

                @EightImmortals:

                so if there are no other cars around then why not continue safely on your way?

                Because you would be breaking the law…

                • EightImmortals on 13/01/2021 - 11:20

                  @jv: (I didn't neg you BTW :))

                  So then your stuff about 'no kids' or 'no cars' was nonsense, your real point of relevancy is that people are not obeying the 'law' regardless of the actual circumstances or the point that the 'law' was written up for in the first place? If a 'law' was written to protect kids but there are no kids around then where is the moral compulsion to 'obey' that law?

                  • Ughhh on 14/01/2021 - 21:26
                    +1

                    @EightImmortals: The rules are to create consistent and predictable situations, thus reducing accidents. Everyone's skill and judgement is different, which increases variables. Things like traffic lights is a way to control variables, inconsistencies and predictability.

                    Also, accidents occur because people didn't think an accident would occur ie thought it was safe. If they knew, it would be murder.

            • SF3 on 13/01/2021 - 11:31
              +2

              @jv:

              In the same way that you must stop at red lights, even if there are no cars on the intersecting road…

              In some parts of India - I've personally observed, red light doesn't mean stop, unless police are at the intersection…

      • Lord Fart Bucket on 15/01/2021 - 06:10

        BS. There would have been an out-of-schools-hours care group. Kids would have been around.

  • jv on 13/01/2021 - 10:26
    +2

    NSW SCHOOL TERM DATES 2020
    Term 4 for students
    Monday 12 October 2020 to Friday 18 December 2020

    https://kidsportmac.com.au/nsw-school-holiday-dates-2020/

  • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 10:35
    -1

    "The first day of Term 1, Term 2 and Term 3 is a school development day and students are not required to attend school until the following day. School development days also occur on the last two days of the school year (the end of Term 4). Note that the dates listed below apply to government schools and that some schools may alter these dates slightly. It is best to check with individual schools for specific information.". School zones in force on days students are not required to attend school. Strange eh. I will follow up the last sentence when school returns lol.

    • bobbified on 13/01/2021 - 11:06
      +5

      While I agree with your argument about it being unfair to have the cameras active on the day, I do remember the RTA/RMS saying a while ago that even on school development days, there is a possibility that there are still kids at school because some schools gave parents the option of sending their kids to be "looked after" for the day.

      • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 11:11

        Yes but not the case here. In a prior reply I mentioned I talked to a teacher across the road on the Wednesday, 2 days before, and he said that is it, finished, they did there professional development throughout the term by agreement and no teachers 17 and 18 and no students.

        • bobbified on 13/01/2021 - 11:18
          +5

          This is the government we're talking about though. They're not going to go through each school to work out which one could have students and which one doesn't.

          • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 21:18
            -2

            @bobbified: Easily done, believe me, if there is a will too.

            • bobbified on 13/01/2021 - 21:49

              @chrisharry53:

              Easily done, believe me, if there is a will too.

              We all know it can be done, but it costs money. I hate it as much as you do, but the government isn't going to spend more money so that they can issue less fines! 🤣

        • Ughhh on 13/01/2021 - 11:28
          +1

          Yes but not the case here.

          What about other schools? Can you guarantee every school zone will have the same case as yours ie. No students at all?

          Your insider knowledge doesn't matter. Law is to be enforced equally on everyone.

          • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 21:17

            @Ughhh: Mate, heard of computer programming and even manual oversight???? Commonsense says school zones are to protect students, not invisible ones and is a great safety measure, not a revenue raiser. I have worked for the NSW State Government and know it is possible if the Government is interested in fairness.

            • Ughhh on 13/01/2021 - 21:33

              @chrisharry53: So you're suggesting for each school zone have their own speed, depending on the day during school term. Not confusing and inconsistent all.

              Mate, I don't think you'd even be able to follow own suggestions if it was in place, you'd get fined all the time.

              Pay your fine, and maybe your donation will help make your suggestion come true.

            • andresampras on 14/01/2021 - 13:11

              @chrisharry53: Just because one teacher said there wouldn't be kids on those days doesn't mean there would be zero kids on those days. What you suggest (programming) would depend on the school checking data from every faculty and every extra curricular activity, to determine whether to, and at what times to advise Service NSW or whoever to set off the 40 zones.

              That's a lot of dependence on repeat human input, therefore it isn't really automated and so doesn't work in practice, I'd think. Not to mention it would transfer responsibility for road speed signs to school staff, which is obviously not possible.

  • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 11:00
    -1

    Help - how do I turn off posts as obviously people just want to debate the issue rather than advise if they know of anyone who got a get out of gaol free card?

    • pharkurnell on 13/01/2021 - 11:25
      +4

      50 people have answered you…. you dont like their answers.
      your problem

      • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 11:37
        +2

        Some good answers, most comments appear to be people who want to just argue.

    • chrisharry53 on 13/01/2021 - 11:39

      Ok, I will just leave as told to do hahaha

  • Muzeeb on 13/01/2021 - 11:03
    +2

    lol

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