In The Guardian today.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/nov/02/toyota-a…
No indication of price.
The best of all possible OZ B worlds - renewable and a Toyota.
Mod Note: Official Toyota News announcement
Toyota Announces Mass Production of EVs, Coming Soon to Oz
Lastchancetosee on 03/11/2021 - 08:15
Last edited 04/11/2021 - 00:04 by 1 other user
Last edited 04/11/2021 - 00:04 by 1 other user
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Oh look, the Tesla haters have arrived with the negs…….
I help! :D
Thank you :)
Tesla have done around 620k vehicles YTD. There's a small chance they may hit 1mil for the year so they're hardly pumping out millions.
Yes, on track for a million this year plus all the units they have sold to date. Sorry should have said, have pumped a million plus EVs so far.
How many EVs has Toyota made and how many are they planning to make next year?
How many did Tesla start with?
Like you seriously going to be asking questions you know the answer to.
Like you seriously going to be asking questions you know the answer to.
Tesla never claimed 'mass produced' car when it started….. But it certainly is now.
Which is my entire point, this article claims Toyota is about to mass produce a EV and fails to put a figure on that.
So how can they claim 'mass' produced?
So how can they claim 'mass' produced?
They have a production line, it’s not just a hand built prototype?
So how can they claim 'mass' produced?
Lolwut? Probably because they are going to be producing a tonne of them on a production line?
Lolwut? Probably because they are going to be producing a tonne of them on a production line?
Lolwut? "Probably" so you don't know. They Probably might only make 50k units. Who knows. Massed produced is a oversell statement at this point.
They Probably might only make 50k units
Why would they do this? They've been mass producing cars for a very long time, lots of people will buy it just because it has a Toyota badge on it.
@brendanm: Because it's good PR, Toyota is a green company, making EVs!
In reality, they've made many anti-EV comments over the past few years.
@Rev0lt: Yes, they will make an entire production line, and tooling, for pr. When they could just sell the cars instead. Hmmm
If they have made anti Ev comments, it would be because they didn't have an ev to sell. Why told you tell people to buy something that you don't sell?
@JimmyF: Why would they dedicate a production line worth billions of dollars to only producing 50,000 vehicles?
Why would they dedicate a production line worth billions of dollars to only producing 50,000 vehicles?
Where have they said they have dedicate a production line worth billions of dollars to produce this EV?
They haven't…. I don't dislike Toyota, I just think its laughable to claim mass production on a EV, that has had zero sales, and no stated figures have been released for production volumes.
Considering Toyota produces next to zero EV vehicles, 'mass production' for their first EV could be counted as 10k units as that is a massive increase from 0 ;)
@JimmyF: How else do you think they will produce their vehicles? This is Toyota, they don’t knock their cars together on a workbench in a tent in the car park.
How many EVs has Toyota made and how many are they planning to make next year?
No idea, don't care and won't be buying one anyway but if it matters (and I have a feeling it won't) Toyota have made around 15mil hybrid vehicles to date and hit the 200mil vehicle mark about a decade ago so it's not like they're inexperienced making vehicles. They'll be just as successful with full EVs I'm sure.
Toyota have made around 15mil hybrid vehicles to date and hit the 200mil vehicle mark about a decade ago so it's not like they're inexperienced making vehicles. They'll be just as successful with full EVs I'm sure.
Hybrids have been on sale for decades now, first came out in 1997…. So 15m hybrids over that timeframe……
Agreed, toyota are not inexperienced at making vehicles, but they are inexperienced at making EV vehicles. GM and Ford also not inexperienced at making vehicles are having issues in the EV space. Toyota won't be any different.
So 15m hybrids over that timeframe……
Yep, lack of demand, not lack of capacity or ability.
You seem to be under the impression that EV are some super secret incredible new technology that needs practice making. They're not. People have made them in their backyards for years.The first production electric cars went on sale in the 1880s (not a typo). If you think a manufacturer like Toyota can't leverage decades of vehicle manufacturing experience and very quickly catch up you're simply mistaken. If you think Tesla make perfect vehicles you're also mistaken. Fit and finish has improved since we started receiving Chinese made ones instead of US made but they're still only on par with the Koreans from a decade or two ago and have a lot of catching up to do to be on par with current Japanese and Korean vehicles. Tesla have had a lot of success but they'll be caught and surpassed by many existing and probably new brands.
@apsilon: The edge Tesla has is with their fsd / auto pilot. You can't just invent that overnight, they will likely have a monopoly on self driving units and licence it out
@TEER3X: Good thing a heap of manufacturers have been working on it for years then and already implement basic functionality of it. We'll just ignore the fact Tesla autopilot can't be used here now or in the foreseeable future and the many accidents that have happened in the US. They don't have as much lead as you seem to think.
@apsilon: There is likely some truth in your argument but Tesla silicon, AI, and their accumulated onroad driving experience will be beyond Toyota a decade from now.
You forget that this year in Australia about a quarter of a million utes will be sold, add to that the SUV's nearly half a million, and thats 3/5ths of the total vechile market. Thats more high fuel consumption vechiles, many being diesel, which also emit noxious gases for humans as well.
So much for the trend to economical cars.
Talk is cheap but in practice, many who claim to be eco responsible and concerned about the planet, still drive these huge cars claiming that its safe for the missus and kids.
As for Joe average, with a mortgage etc, buying a Tesla while eco friendly power wise, its a big chunk of money that mortgage repayments, school fees etc need.
Rather than pushing ev's at $60K a pop, why not take the FBT advantages of no log books of these pseudo trade use vechiles, which means only true business usage is tax exempt. Likewise make only 2 passenger utes FBT exempt (vs 4 door utes that families use) and you will see as big a reduction in greenhouse gases than all the EVs sold in Australia to date.
You forget that this year in Australia about a quarter of a million utes will be sold, add to that the SUV's nearly half a million, and thats 3/5ths of the total vechile market
and how many of them are EVs? :(
Talk is cheap
Kinda my point, claiming its a mass produced car by Toyota with zero sales on the books. aka Lots of talk, couldn't even put a figure on first years production.
Rather than pushing ev's at $60K a pop, why not take the FBT advantages of no log books of these pseudo trade use vechiles, which means only true business usage is tax exempt. Likewise make only 2 passenger utes FBT exempt (vs 4 door utes that families use) and you will see as big a reduction in greenhouse gases than all the EVs sold in Australia to date.
Why not both? :)
FBT on utes is the worse. So many 4 door utes doing the school drop off.
Japan is planning to phase out petrol cars by the mid 2030's. Whatever Toyota's attitude to EVs in the past, they have to get on board now.
Japan finally catching up to many other parts of the world then, lots of countries have planned to phase out ICE cars by 2030. Why do you think Tesla is ramping up factories? USA, China and EU. They know what is coming.
Toyota was betting on Hydrogen, as that is what the fuel companies had been pushing because the thought of someone 'charging' at home and them not having a business model keeps them awake at night. Fuel companies love Hydrogen as its a drop in replacement for petrol, so they stay in loop.
My point is whatever Toyota did in the past isn't evidence that Toyota isn't going to be serious about EV now. Things have changed
Actually hydrogen, if possible makes a lot more sense than an EV, with regard to practicalities.
Firstly most homes, except those in the latte sipping city, have two or more cars, so a solar panel charging overnight (when no sun but thats another matter) will need to be doubled or at least 50% more for charging two cars, then when junior gets a licence, the charging capacity needs further increasing.
Then get a few days of rain,when ironically people use their cars more, then the power has to come from the grid at the same time many others want it.
Then using solar is also limited unless the cars are driven at night. Or the house has a battery back up system. But currently if you try to extract power too fast that degrades the battery.
Hydrogen is essentially a store of energy. It can be manufactured during the day, shipped to a distribution point and supplied to a car. Sure enterprising companies will make a buck out of this, but we save the planet by using renewable energy in a way that we all want.
So evs will require a different way of living that I doubt the majority will like, based on the current technology. This is especially true for those who drive long distances in the day. Thats not holidays thats everyday. Those living in the burbs know that all too well. Those without kids living in the inner fringes don’t understand this.
Of course this all depends on hydrogen being viable thru storage distribution and manufacturing something yet to be proven, however companies like Toyota are giving it a shot, and if it works out, that will be a benefit to all.
@RockyRaccoon: Can't wait to see what mischief the kids will get up to once they work out how to get the hydrogen out of the car…
Firstly most homes, except those in the latte sipping city, have two or more cars, so a solar panel charging overnight (when no sun but thats another matter) will need to be doubled or at least 50% more for charging two cars, then when junior gets a licence, the charging capacity needs further increasing.
I think you're missing a core concept here, which is that electricity from the grid also needs to come from renewable sources. There's no reason you have to produce the power right there at your house.
Also, notions like households needing three cars for three people are also going to disappear relatively rapidly IMHO. I expect within 10 years the concept of 'cars as a service' will take hold in a lot of places, where you 'subscribe' to Tesla or whoever and they dispatch an autonomous vehicle whenever you need to go anywhere.
If I charged an EV overnight here in SA, it would probably be charged by wind turbines. No reason the rest of the country can't do the same.
@RockyRaccoon: The efficiency losses of converting water to hydrogen and then back into electricity don't make sense compared to taking the electricity and putting it straight into batteries. Hydrogen is also an appallingly inefficient gas to be piped for long distances as it requires about three times the energy as methane to pump the same energy volume of gas. We can't use the linear natural gas infrastructure either as hydrogen has a tendency to make the steel brittle and leaks more easily than methane. It is explosive at concentrations as low as 5% and we can't use the same odorants as methane. The cost of the electrolysers is nothing to be sneezed at either.
Hydrogen doesn't stack up compared to just generating electricity renewably and transmitting it over the existing electrical infrastructure. There will be uses for hydrogen in industrial settings i.e. heavy mobile equipment that requires high utilisation and where batteries will be too bulky or feedstocks in fertiliser and steel production.
I have a feeling the only reason we hear so much about hydrogen is that the oil and gas giants are looking to make a quick buck, likely off the public purse, producing blue and grey hydrogen to squeeze the last few dollars out of their billion dollar stranded assets. Costly and inefficient greenwashing out our expense.
Claiming "mass production" might be a bit of a stretch
Toyota didn't use that term, The Guardian did…
Ahhhh well that makes more sense! Can't expect mass media to get things right ;)
Or, being Toyota maybe they’ll beat Elon at his own game. They won’t risk a bad reputation with a sub par model.
I'm not in the market to buy an EV but if I did then I wouldn't go with the weakest horse.
I would go with the fastest that has a proven track record even if I have to pay a premium.
I would go with the fastest that has a proven track record even if I have to pay a premium.
Which could well be a Toyota, the EV industry is still in the growth/disruption phase nothing is set.
@plmko: I'm not saying that Toyota can't catch up.
What I'm saying is I'm not interested in photoshop ads. Show a working product next to the leader and let's talk.
Show a working product next to the leader and let's talk.
No leader, but good enough
@spackbace: Anyone can make a CGI ad.
They need to show some prices and benchmarks.
Key details including pricing are yet to be confirmed, however it's likely Toyota will look to position the vehicle similarly to its electric SUV competition, led by the Hyundai Ioniq 5, which spans $71,900 to $75,900 before on-road costs locally.
Anything at this price range won't sell like hot cakes.
Doesn't Tesla have an ongoing issue with build quality?
Toyota was the one first car manufacturers to start the hybrid car trend and even hydrogen fuel cells.
I'm guessing you're a bit worried about the Tesla share price.
I'm not interested in hybrid nor hydrogen cars.
Oil prices are at $81 per barrel which is a record high. This trend will keep going up. Anyone that drives an ICE or hybrid should start feeling the pain.
Oil reached ~US$140 per barrel in 2008.
@rektrading: And how are Ev's powered? When the demand for electricity rises exponentially, do you think the pain wont be felt by EV owners?
Ecologically EV should be better, price wise the pain will be felt in a number of ways.
Cost of in demand power
Price of Lithium for batteries is predicted to rise dramatically as more production of Ev's.
If you are a low mileage driver, doubling the cost of oil based fuel, probably doesnt offset the extra cost of the EV.So arguing on cost/pain isnt the issue, its for the reduction in greenhouse gases, is it not?
@RockyRaccoon: I don't have a problem with battery prices going up. I'm hedging against rising prices. The more they go up the more returns.
What's wrong with hydrogen?
@FloatingPoint: See my comment above. Essentially it doesn't make economic or efficient use of energy to transfer electricity into hydrogen and then back into electricity.
OP says $81 per barrel is a record high.
OP is wrong "Historically, Crude oil reached an all time high of 147.27 in July of 2008"OP should shut up
Oil prices at record high after OPEC+ maintains previously agreed output levels
Group decides to pump 400,000 bpd in November, ignoring calls to ramp up the production amid rising demand
Sibel Morrow |
05.10.2021
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/economy/oil-prices-at-record-high-a…The trend is going up to the right.
Oil prices are at $81 per barrel which is a record high
How old are you kid?
Yet they lagged and delayed in every possible manner to deliver EV's. They had the tech and the potential, but some 'involved' partners held them back⛽️…. I'm keen to see these cars, but if history is correct I can't see Toyota changing their attitude overnight. Time will tell.
Elon cant make quality cars
plenty of articles about his shambles car park production line or teslas built with bits of bobs from home depot or the study which shows tesla is in the top 5 most unreliable cars on the market (toyota and lexus top 5 most reliable)
The waiting period for a new Tesla is 10 months. The quality or the lack of isn't stopping people from buying.
The US plant is a defunct GM plant. Perhaps it's haunted
Competition is good. everyone wins.
Exactly, don't advocate for no competition!
Not very impressive in terms of power. 160kw for a dual motor EV is a bad joke. Most single motor EVs put out substantially more power than that. There's also zero chance that car will make 500km range with a 71kwh battery. 300km tops.
Not impressive but far from a joke. It's more than pretty much all petrol engines in it's class.
Perfect for people that live in the city.
so that basically covers all EVs at the moment in Australia
That depends what you mean by city. With current infrastructure, If you live in the CDB you can't charge it.
It should be compared to EVs in its class. ICE us yesterday's news. 160kw was what mid range saloon cars make 20 years ago.
160kw is perfect for both city and rural driving why do you feel you need more? I have driven vehicles between 85 - 187kw and they are all more than capable of getting around.
@[Deactivated]: OP thinks everyone needs a holden GTS with a big southern cross sticker on the back window
with a 71kwh battery.
Just throw a spare battery in the boot…
My eneloops to the rescue!
"combined 160kW and 336Nm of torque, capable of zero to 100km/h in 7.7 seconds."
You are probably imagining it will drive like a petrol 160kw car, 336 Nm is plenty of power for a sedan.
It's specs are basically equivalent to a 4 cyl turbo diesel, like a BMW 320d. Not a race car sure, but it isn't gutless either.
If you haven't driven one, think of the performance of a 6 cyl commodore
7.7 seconds is slow these days.
RAV4 AWD Hybrid is around 8-8.5secs
Doesn't affect sales numbers, does it?
Ohhh but you always think that what you say actually matters, and that you represent the buying public
@spackbace: People are idiots. People follow the herd. Just because they sell all the RAV4 Hybrids they can make, doesn't make it a great car. And you can kiss goodbye to RAV4 sales the second Tesla Model Y SR+ goes on sale in Australia.
@[Deactivated]: Why? Has any Tesla model had an impact on the sale of any Toyota models…?
Survey says no
@[Deactivated]: for the tesla to get market traction it needs to be:
cheaper (for both the car and fast charging at home equipment and software upgrade) - by a lot
increase its dealer network - by a lot
increase the adoption of its charging network - by a lot(that goes for any full EV now anyway, hyundai ioniq, kona, etc etc all suffer the same fate - hugely expensive)
@[Deactivated]: if anyone doesn't know what tesla is they have their heads in the sand
tesla is very mainstream. that doesn't solve the obvious significant financial roadblocks that tesla (and all current EVs) have
@MrThing: Tesla Model 3 is cheap. That might not be your market, but you can't deny the value of the SR+.
@[Deactivated]: its still well over 60k for the poverty pack model (teslas inventory for the standard range plus is 62700 plus fees and taxes)
I have nothing wrong with EVs, they are the future, but I dont want to pay a premium for the pleasure. knowing there are other factors which I need to consider - like fast charging at home / out / regional and the restricted service/dealer networks.
I mean if you were in the market for a bmw/merc/audi sedan for city use only and you had a house you could install a fast charger in sure tesla model 3 would possibly be in your interest
@[Deactivated]: I have, looked at buying one. Couldn't go ahead based on the quality. As I said, it's a $30k car. They were very typical of US built vehicles. As I said in another comment the Chinese made ones are better but are still well behind longer established manufacturers.
160kW is 20kW less than a golf GTI has
I think you'll be fine with 160kW for driving to and from the shops me thinks
Made in AU - No indication of price.
Double it.
Toyota pioneered the hybrid market, but the company is trailing badly behind the likes of Tesla, VW, and Hyundai. Toyota bet big on hydrogen with the Mirai, but that didn't pan out so well.
Agreed, Toyota did amazing with the hybrid, then got stuck in the hydrogen hole and couldn't admit its mistake so kept doubling down on that. Finally they have seen the light!
They never really bet big on hydrogen, it was a proof of concept at best. They literally have 20 Mirai 2 in Australia, purely for marketing reasons. They are probably loosing a fortune on each one. If you ever go in one, you'll realise that they spent very little time on it. Packaging is terrible, it has very little space inside, despite being huge on the outside (the worst bit without a doubt are the head cubbies in the ceiling of the rear), the dash is a parts bin special, (it literally has two electric parking brakes buttons next to each other), the UI is archaic, the screens low res, it's not even connected, something BMW have been doing for a decade. The only redeeming feature is the chassis itself, because it's a Lexus LS underneath. It's slow, has no real fuelling infrastructure, and thoroughly disappointing.
The upcoming BMW X5 Hydrogen is much more promising, with decent power and a good platform, but obviously EVs are a much better solution in most applications, and much better for the environment.
I'd imagine Toyota isn't trailing behind but simply spending significant more time in R&D and testing before going into production. Toyota have been leaders in hybrid and green tech and I'd bet the the first full EV will decimate the competition in terms of affordability and practicality.
Still unbearably outdated interiors on models they haven't even released yet. Cutting the top off your steering wheel does not make it modern.
If Kia and Hyundai prices are any indication, a full EV Toyota will literally be $89,990 for a Yaris
…and that steering wheel will never pass ADR
Toyota = game over.
It'll be interesting to see the price point they can bring with mass production.
I still find it ridiculous how much higher valued Tesla is compared to traditional car manufacturers that can produce significantly more cars. - obviously a lot of capital would need to be invested so they can do EVs.
Toyota is behind on EVs, mainly because they bet big on (non plugin) hybrids and on hydrogen fuel cells. That means they are going to back of the queue for cheap batteries, and are going to only sell where people will pay high prices for EVs, which is not Australia.
Who knows - we may eventually see Toyota EVs do as well here as Toyota ICE. But not in the next few years because Toyota is starting way too far back.
I predict the bulk of car sales in 2030 in Australia will be Chinese brands, with more prestigious cars being Tesla and VW group.
I predict the bulk of car sales in 2030 in Australia will be Chinese brands
Zero chance. If that happens I'll eat my car. EV sales will definitely increase in the next ~9 years but to say the bulk of vehicle sales in Aust will be from Chinese brands by 2030, only way that's happening is if China invades and takes over.
@apsilon: I think you need to read up on the Chinese car industry. And on Chinese EVs too. Both Elon Musk and the CEO of VW Group have publicly declared them their biggest competitive threat.
In fact I think you had better prepare to eat car …
yeah this is a terrible non story article
Nissan Ariya 'exists' as much as this car 'exists'.
Will be a long LONG time before you can buy a RAV4 EV at any price here.