In The Guardian today.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/nov/02/toyota-a…
No indication of price.
The best of all possible OZ B worlds - renewable and a Toyota.
Mod Note: Official Toyota News announcement
Toyota Announces Mass Production of EVs, Coming Soon to Oz
Lastchancetosee on 03/11/2021 - 08:15
Last edited 04/11/2021 - 00:04 by 1 other user
Last edited 04/11/2021 - 00:04 by 1 other user
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@apsilon: A decent amount of cars are already made in China and they've been stockpiling resources. I could foresee some type of partnership with an established manufacturer or a Chinese company buys someone out.
Personal preference wouldn't be to own/use a Chinese car and I imagine that would be the same for a lot of Aussies.
@Caped Baldy: Yeah and the vast majority of them are sold in China. Chinese cars outselling all non Chinese manufacturers combined in Australia within 9 years just isn't going to happen.
Oh well, I am just waiting for the Car automotive price bubble crash, Cant even afford a new Gas car rn, and you talking about EV ?
Bloody need to wait at least 1.5 years for there to be enough computers in supply to offset the demands
any good aus battery / mining companies to invest in with the demand for EVs?
Get an ASIC miner and mine your own money. Its more profitable than digging up dirt.
Lithium miners. By the mid 2020s Australia will be the world's biggest lithium exporter.
Talison owns the biggest known hard rock lithium deposit in the world (Greenbushes in WA) - and it is all high grade too. But Talison is not listed (its owned by the yanks and Chinese).
ASX: NIC, very undervalued stock atm.
Argosy, but DYOR
Li-s
ACDC is another. DYOR though as money has been flooding to this tech for years now, even for mines tangled in consent issues.
Why can't we just have nice Hybrids -_-
I love EVs but charging technology is not there yet and it can become a cumbersome problem which will eventually be solved but not today.
Technology doesn't care it's today or tomorrow. ICE and hybrids are old and will die a slow death like 2G, 3G and eventually 4G.
People want faster, stronger and cheaper. Give people what they want.
I get it but in the same manner we'll be stuck with old battery and charging technology and if history tells us anything - companies will charge us arms and legs to get the better tech unlike hybrids which can go on for very long.
Cars are big investment and we would have companies bringing planned obsolescence just like iPhones etc… to the EVs as well so we need some sort of thinking around that.
People should hedge against the rising prices by investing in the technology and/or in assets that outperform the price.
Mass adoption is inevitable. People may as well profit from it.
The charging IS here. People just are afraid of having to stop for lunch after 4 hours of driving.
How all people parking on streets will charge their cars? Local councils can install chargers on streets but we are far from that yet. Although I saw a few in Berlin but zero in Australia.
People will have to learn to incorporate charging whilst they are out. e.g. charging when shopping, charging when at work, charging when out to breakast, lunch, or dinner, instead of stopping by to refuel on the way or way back from errands like they do with their ICE car.
I'm not too cluey but there are charging station sites that can provide locations. From memory on my travels around Sydney metro, there's Broadway shopping centre, Rosebery, and the Rocks. Some also offer first 2 hours free, like a PCYC in Dee Why as described by Tesla Tom.
30-60 mins charging time is plenty to top up.
It's like owning an ICE car. Keep an eye on the fuel indicator to ensure that you don't return home with less than 100km or 50km left in the tank.
I'm not afraid of it, just find it terribly inconvenient. I don't want to stop 3 times on a 10 hour day of driving, I want to stop once so I make it there before the sun goes down and I'm contending with wildlife….let along towing a caravan, boat, trailer, or anything else.
I'll eventually get an EV for the daily commute but in the current situation will always need another vehicle for holidays.3 Times in 10 hours sounds like the recommended timing for driver fatigue.
How many people are driving these sorts of distances, and how often? I get the niche case of driving from Adelaide to Melbourne or Melbourne to Sydney or whatever, but that's hardly something most people do every day.
And maybe it would be good for us to just slow down a little. Your trip involves a little stop, or maybe even an overnight stop, halfway? Great, relax. Plan around it taking a little longer to do things.
Anthony Albanese came out and said we don't need a carbon tax anymore to shift the market, because it's shifting anyway due to renewables. The technology is definitely there.
Hybrids are yesterdays news.
Anthony Albanese is unelectable.
Joshy & Scomo just lumped Australia with over $25B of wasted taxpayer money on Jobkeeper.
Far & away the greatest waste of money by any government in history.Better Economic Managers™
You might want to have a look at the polling graph here… https://www.pollbludger.net/
Without Murdoch, the LNP would struggle to win a dozen seats at the next election. However, we'll get another scare campaign about death taxes/culture wars/China/Anthony Albanese will kill your pets and the disengaged swing voters will drift right again.
Hybrids cost more, and have lower performance than a small diesel. Instead of 5-6 L/100km they get 3-4L/100km.
The Hybrid might be better for air quality, but until that feeds into the cost of the car, they aren't worth it.
From this point most major car companies would have to run at a loss for years in order to produce something comparable to the model S released in 2008.
Tesla are so far in front it's stupid.
Toyota is too expensive.
Hyundai is the new Toyota
Hyundai's cars are way more up to date than Toyotas. Get into a brand new Toyota, and it's like you're in a 2001 BMW.
Tesla are so far in front it's stupid.
How do?
toyota will have to first stop producing their petrol/hybrid cars. Loss of revenue. Redundant factory.
then ramp up production of ev's. period of loss of revenue in R&D and building factories for EV.the above is about 2-3 years worth of painful revenue losses while making the transition to EV.
sorry toyota, game over. entered a bit too late.
Why would they stop hybrid production?
They've made comments that for them it'll be a 3-pronged approach - hybrid, ev and hydrogen alongside each other. Each has advantages in different markets
As an example, the Middle East accounts for like 70% of Landcruiser buyers. Driving through the dunes, etc etc, will require hybrid tech, not ev, until the technology is that mature.
No one can currently produce a reliable EV with 3T pulling power, or the ability to cross deserts. The tech is just too immature. Every brand in the space has a lot more development to do to reach that milestone. A city EV is the easiest to try to build, but a recreational SUV isn't.
"No one can currently produce a reliable EV with 3T pulling power, or the ability to cross deserts… city EV is the easiest to try to build, but a recreational SUV isn't.
That's just crap. EVs innately have more torque than even diesels. And recreational SUVs do not cross deserts, despite the fantasies most buyers of them have.
If there are currently few recreational SUV EVs that is purely because EV manufacturers are building for the big markets - ie Europe and China - where SUVs are not so popular.
@derrida derider: Lol way to attempt to form an argument to try to further your own agenda.
The global market and manufacturers don't care about your perceived views on where you see SUVs driven, the facts of my comment are clear. Australia has a very small role to play in the decision of car manufacturers, so won't have any influence whatsoever.
@spackbace: Que? Read again, spackbace. I'm agreeing with you - SUVs are not popular where EVs are popular, so EV manufacturers are not producing SUVs. It doesn't mean they CAN'T.
I tend to agree with Toyota being late to the party, having heavily invested in hybrid.
But in what world would they shut down production of petrol cars and convert to electric? They will start a new factory/line knowing that whatever is shutting down was going to be replaced anyway.
Commenting just to read all the butt-hurt commenters lol
You can subscribe for new comments without commenting.
Well aware… I don't sub tho, I just check my comments page for updates. Don't want the bell going off all the time
Would be interested to see if they price this just above their Rav4 top model. Doubt it thought, they probably want 70k+ and that wont appeal to many
Anyone reckon the name is a bit of a wordful (e.g. compared to EV6/Ioniq 5)? I like that it stands for Beyond Zero but BZX4 sounds like the name of my $1 aliexpress bluetooth card
They have an entire news section on climate crisis lmao
Seen quite a few Tesla Model 3 cars on the road and they look boring as f***. White goods on wheels. Glad to see some real competition coming.
This car isn't competition though. The worst Model 3 is miles better than this Toyota in every measurable way.
Make a Corolla EV, and price around the same as the petrol, and Toyota will decimate the market.
Make a Camery EV, and the same.
Make a Hilux EV and the same.
you know the rav4 hybrid vs the rav4 petrol is only marginally more? with the rav4 hybrid having way more power than the former
GX 2.0l petrol in cvt auto is $39k and change
GX 2.5l hybrid in cvt auto $41k and change
the tesla SUV equivalent is at least double that price (with a similar problem of stock levels like the rav4 hybrids). Also not every family wants to pay shit tonnes more money to drive an SUV which is as fast as a race car
Hence, if they can bring the cost to similar to petrol, most people would go that way.
All I know is that I am not buying an EV from Luke @ Techfast and that I can't drive a Xiaomi, Blitzwolf, Baseus, Huawei, Oppo, Hisense, One Plus, Lenovo or ZTE.
bZ4X Press Release
All those people quoting the term "mass-produced" which The Guardian used, isn't actually used in this press release…
Food for thought
Why is there always a Tesla hardcore fan defending tesla on every thread related to cars? Man it's annoying
silly question - everyone seems to think Toyota is doomed to failed and Tesla is years ahead. But isn't it just a matter of replacing the petrol engines of their existing cars with an electric one?
yeah I know it is probably a little more complicated then that, but at least for a layman like me, just because the engine has change, does that mean Toyota's 90 years of experience in making cars are suddenly useless, and they need to re-learn how to make cars from the ground up?
/put on flame suit
Pretty much. It's why when you actually look at a Tesla up close you can see their inexperience in putting a car together. There's really nothing revolutionary about electric vehicles. Where Tesla is ahead is having Musk as a figurehead who's great at self promotion and hyping the things he's involved in.
this
musk is a master of self promotion, bluff and hype. I mean that's easy in America, they have half a population who still think the election was rigged…..
his cars as you say are immature and full of unnecessary shit the average consumer doesn't need or want….ie; auto pilot, a car that can do 0-100km/hr in 3seconds, a family car which costs 90k, a car which requires changes to your home to be able to charge it in less than 5 days (exaggeration but you understand the point)
what they want is a reliable car, with lots of boot space, modern and safe but not pretentious, good access to service centres/ dealer network /regular mechanics who can fix it, not have to plan their long range journey to intersect a charging station and of course efficient (so anyone who buys a landcruiser 200 series to pick up the kids and go shopping or who must have a MIN of 200kW can plz just sit down)
full EV's will never be adopted until their prices drop by 50%…I mean even the hyundai ioniq 5 is going to be like 70grand ++, who can afford an 70grand car which then has other limitations which current cars do not have.
Umm, have you actually looked what a Model3 Tesla costs these days? A lot less than you think.
The price premium for EVs in Australia is larger than the price premium elsewhere simply because we are a small volume backwater with an anti-renewables government. Why sell here when you have a long waiting list and there is full infrastructure support everywhere else?
The Chinese buy roughly thirty times as many cars as Australians. It is a far more competitive and price-sensitive market than here. EVs and plugin hybrids account for over a quarter of all sales there now - and that share is growing very quickly.
@derrida derider: yep right here, https://www.tesla.com/en_au/model3/design#overview
65k drive away for base model, model 3. they are cheeky as fuk for assuming a fuel saving of 5grand and putting that in to the price and calling it "59k after savings"
An EV has to be made from the 'ground up' to be competitive.
Legacy manufacturers are finding this out.
Agreed. John Codagan's video explains it detail far better than we could over a few OzB comments for those who are interested in learning a thing or two.
Vapourware.
As the largest car maker (by numbers), they could be the first major legacy car manufacturer to go bankruptNah, they have huge cash reserves. Chrysler, Renault/Nissan, Mitsubishi, Mazda will all disappear several years before them.
China will start cranking up its coal plants, with zero emissions protection when we turn ours off and rebuild them in China so we can make batteries and solar panels. I do love my county but we are also absolute morons.
Your comment is a perfect example of what you've said.
Enlighten me.
China has committed to carbon neutral by 2060.
https://unfccc.int/sites/default/files/resource/China%E2%80%…
@cashews: In two generations, they will do something about global warming?
I am going to start going to the gym and working out, very soon, I'll tell you what, I'll buy a gym membership in 2060, I'm really committed this time.
Hahahabbababababababahahahahhahahah
I'm not sure what you were intending by posting that link, are you payed by the ccp?
@cashews: Of course. CCP always keep their promises. Time after time. The world is on safe hands.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-anniversary-chin…
https://www.justsecurity.org/72074/how-china-is-violating-hu…
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertolsen/2021/03/14/uk-says-…
https://www.voanews.com/a/east-asia-pacific_5-years-after-so…
CCP always keep their promises
no more or less than any other politician or vote buying government. difference is in china there is no vested interest or powerful lobbies in coal and ICE industry unlike australia/US. there is also significant economic not to mention the social cost of air pollution. self-interest trumps all i'd put my money on china being ahead of australia on meeting emissions targets. it's pure self-interest behind all the chest thumping about being green
Great discussion. Thank you.
There’s a lot to play out for EVs in the next few years and I would be doing a big wait and see on Toyota for EVs. Toyota have been brought into EVs kicking and screaming after doing everything they can to avoid them.
There are lots of disrupters in the market that will be bringing in vehicles at a much better price point than the current offerings.
The key for me before I buy will be the access to Self Driving technology in whatever I buy. Tesla seem to offer this, but I really want to have some confidence about this. I don’t want to buy something that I have to do all the driving for if there is something better available.Thats what I think as well, early adopters aren't necessarily the biggest and best.
What Tesla excel at with EV cars, they are also terrible on other things like quality control and their manufacturing process
What Toyota excel at with manufacturing and quality, they are far behind on EV
Full regulatory approval of "Level 5 Self Driving" technology for Australia IMO is many many many years away (like 2030+) at least.
I think that timeframe is right. I am attracted to the Tesla proposition of paying upfront for FSD to be delivered incrementally, but not yet confident of their ability to actually deliver.
Once there is the right car with a guaranteed development path I think I’m in.The technology is the easy part convincing the government, the regulators and the community its safe will be the hard part
the court of public opinion will be a much harder nut to crack
@MrThing: True, but it will happen after a while.
I guess the other disruption in the wings is door to door auto transport.
I actually love driving, but going great places (wife and I drove Strezleki and Birdsville tracks a few weeks ago)- not the boring to the shops stuff. I want a robot servant for that.😁A classic First world problem really, isn’t it? 🤔
@abuch47: I have a Nissan Patrol Y62. Big rumbling petrol V8. 😁
Sorry for the slow reply - been out of phone range travelling in it again…
No-where to charge, but hell yes Victoria will tax you anyway!
Hydrogen is the future. Screw electric.
ok mr toyoda
Keen to hear your thoughts with the incoming EVs and eventual affordable EV utes, will Diesel Utes become cheaper (unable to compete with EVs) or more expensive (lower production run on them)?
Personally I think EV utes will be a great thing for Australian tradies and the like, they feature high low end torque, can use V2L to power power tools on powerless sites, minimal maintenance required , cheaper running costs, more ground clearance, no need for a snorkel and one for people outside the ute much quieter than a diesel. Some of the negatives at the moment, are less payload and towing capacity (although the new Ford F-150 Lightning EV ute is more than the most popular ute in Aus), less range (arguably this doesn't matter as tradies do small trips) and more expensive.
Whoever comes to market in Australia with an affordable EV ute will make an absolute killing, I don't think it will be Toyota though. If Ford can make a smaller F-150 e.g. Ranger on an EV platform they will sell like hot cakes here.
diesel isn't a must have for private vehicles, if it fizzled out it wouldn't be a show stopper. On the 4wding circuit plenty of people have petrol based 4wd's.
primary users of diesel in Australia is trucking, agriculture and mining - all who get government fuel subsidies.
These will be harder to replace (given remoteness, reliability and uptime requirements), however hydrogen is a viable replacement if they can scale up its manufacturing.
Surface Mining is trialing hydrogen powered haul trucks with Fortescue (https://www.australianmining.com.au/news/fortescue-closes-in…)
Underground mining is already heavily electrified - but that was born out of workplace health and safety which started a long time ago and also the power requirements for the machinery which diesel engines cannot provide in a compact unit like an electric motor.Also regarding; EV ute, google Rivian
bZ4X, rolls right off the tongue.
Electric Viking will laugh at this. Toyota is far behind Tesla and the Chinese brands in terms of EV.
I hear the pitter patter of Toyota EVs… Did Spackbace and Burnertoasty get married in secret?!
When the transition is complete, it will be an energy mix. Hydrogen will have use cases, batteries will have use cases and there maybe other alternative energy sources too.
Fossil fuel will be in use for a few more decades at least, as the world economies are running at different paces.
Vehicle ownership will reduce as new transportation technologies and options are introduced, and this will change the perceptions and usage of energy sources.If you don't think the only reason toyota took their time is to iron out issues then you don't know things. tesla used their customers as Guinea pigs, this toyota will be the greatest electric car ever made.
No, Toyota were very publicly sceptical that BEVs would ever be viable. They put all their advanced research money into hydrogen and (non plugin) hybrids.
They are starting WAY behind and so are having to buy the batteries. But the big shortage limiting BEV uptake worldwide at the moment is not enough battery factories (they take longer to build than a car assembly plant) and Toyota is at the back of the queue.
So they might be able to make a great electric car, but they won't be able to sell it at a competitive price.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Most-read-in-2020/Toyota-s…
You'd be surprised what they're actually working on. It's not a matter of matching the competition, it's a matter of leap-frogging them.
Toyota have more experience with batteries, and building a car around them, than anyone else due to their hybrid research. They'd be looking to develop better battery tech, not just match the competition
Toyota wants to end the weekend!!!
Yeah, taxing us back to nil fuel cost saving esp with hybrid cars
@derrida derider: I wish this forum had a reminder function so we could revisit this in 2030.