This was posted 2 years 2 months 4 days ago, and might be an out-dated deal.

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Drop + Sennheiser HD8XX (Drop HD800S) Headphones: US$699 + Reship with Shipito + GST for ~US$848 (~A$1190)

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Drop + Sennheiser HD8XX (Drop HD800S) Headphones: US$699 + Reship with Shipito + GST for ~US$848 (~A$1190)
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dreamscene on 15/02/2022 - 23:31 drop.com (1524 clicks)
Last edited 16/02/2022 - 11:24 by 1 other user
ZEOS8XX

Drop version of the Sennheiser HD800S that retails for $1900 in AU. One of the most anticipated Drop releases. This is a controversial new Drop Sennheiser collab, some love it, some hate it. I have posted the deal as the $700 AUD discount is massive for someone looking to get a flagship Sennheiser. There are a lot of EQ profiles already available. As it's a new Drop collab, people are still experimenting with different settings to get it to 'sound better' than the HD800S.

Shipping:

AU Addresses does not work with coupon, have to use a Mail Forwarding company like ShipIto (Quote came to $79 USD with Insurance for NSW) than add GST on top. Use ShipIto Oregon Warehouse (no US tax is added unlike LA Warehouse). Plethora of Mail Forward companies that can be cheaper than ShipIto, that's just 1 example. If you have family / friend's in the US that can re-ship it to you that's another option.

Total would be around ~$848 USD with ShipIto Shipping and GST. That comes to, ~$1191 AUD landed.

Marketing Description:

The HD 8XX is based on the HD 800S; a flagship audiophile headphone produced by our partners at Sennheiser. Like the HD 800S, the HD 8XX is made in Germany at Sennheiser’s HQ factory. Based on community requests, we worked with Sennheiser to tune the housing resonance to add low end extension, while we adjusted the driver damping to create midrange balance and reveal treble detail. Introducing the Drop + Sennheiser HD 8XX: class-leading headphones with a revised tuning, signature Drop color accents, and unrivaled performance.

Social Media Debate and Reviews:

Reddit debate on this very deal here: https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/sswjin/price_dr…

More recent updated reviews using latest EQ profiles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd52ghFjMbo&t=198s

Edit: Headphone reviewer DMS also mentioned the only tuning change to the HD8XX is an internal tape that can be removed and the HD8XX gets pretty much very close to the HD800S sound signature. There is debate on this mod and if it even works but his tweet is here. https://twitter.com/dms3tv/status/1433817637792911375

Referral Links

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closed Comments

  • nng526 on 15/02/2022 - 23:37
    +5

    Addicted to audio did for 1499 with local warranty and express shipping.
    Shoot them an email they will honor the price for you.
    And it is real HD800S, not 8XX

    • dreamscene on 15/02/2022 - 23:43

      Are you sure they will honor the $1499 price with just a 'discount request'? In any case, a further $300 AUD discount with this deal gets a very good measuring Dac + Amp for these though. Like the new Topping DX3Pro+ or the Fiio K5 Pro Ess.

      • nng526 on 15/02/2022 - 23:46

        Just personal opinion, there are other options available.
        Depends what you want and what dac and amp.
        Personally I prefer original version.

        • dreamscene on 16/02/2022 - 00:34

          Only if they agree to discount to $1499. Still $300 more it's still a lot more expensive, though.

      • ilikeblue on 16/02/2022 - 02:04
        +7

        Sorry but HD8xx does not equals to HD800s. If you look at measurements you can see how big of a difference there are between the two headphones.

        https://crinacle.com/graphs/headphones/graphtool/?share=HD8X…

        • dreamscene on 16/02/2022 - 04:08
          -1

          Just remove the internal tape in the HD8XX version and it becomes HD800S. But why stop there, EQ it to actually make it better than the HD800S. https://twitter.com/dms3tv/status/1433817637792911375

          • ChadHominem on 16/02/2022 - 07:36
            +2

            @dreamscene: “Better”?

          • jasswolf on 16/02/2022 - 08:35
            +3

            @dreamscene: DMS later clarified that this guess of his was incorrect.

            You cannot fix all of what Drop has done here, that's why they're so deeply discounted: no one wants them.

            • dreamscene on 16/02/2022 - 10:04

              @jasswolf: If you can find where he says 'his guess was incorrect', I will edit the DMS Tweet post. All his posts on this subject I found are still unedited and still online. Recent posts from many others have also mentioned the tape mod. As you say, there is an ongoing debate on how well it works.

              • jasswolf on 16/02/2022 - 11:44
                +2

                @dreamscene: https://twitter.com/dms3tv/status/1435667743077019648

                Also, read the very recent replies.

                • dreamscene on 16/02/2022 - 11:54
                  +2

                  @jasswolf: He did not say he was incorrect but this new Tweet shows a few more mods were done as well apart from the tape. His other tweets still say tape mod gets 'very close' to the HD800S in the original post. Close enough is good enough especially with $700 savings correct? As with most audiophiles who can't even tell the difference between an MP3 file and lossless, the debate is ongoing. None the less, I have edited the description slightly due to this additional feedback.

                  • jasswolf on 16/02/2022 - 11:55
                    +1

                    @dreamscene: The draw of the HD800S is its technical performance, not its tonality.

                    They over-dampened the driver.

                    Not only is he walking that back, the same guy is also telling you not to buy it as of an hour ago.

    • fourmi on 15/02/2022 - 23:43

      Honour this deal's price or $1499?

      • nng526 on 15/02/2022 - 23:47

        nah
        just 1499 for original HD800S, depends what you really after.

    • Seafoodrice on 16/02/2022 - 11:01
      +3

      From AtA:
      Thanks for contacting us!

      Unfortunately that promotion was only run for a limited period of time, we aren't expecting to offer a discount like this for some time.

      Please let us know if you had any other questions!

      • nng526 on 16/02/2022 - 11:44

        may be you are bad luck, I always send them an email for lower price, so far everytime they do it.
        HD8XX is not bad option considering the price
        cons
        long waiting for shipping
        warranty is pain while a2a just go there they just swap it for you.

      • jasswolf on 16/02/2022 - 11:49
        +1

        Here's how you get the discount: don't order an 8XX.

        The drivers will then go in the original housing and Sennheiser will discount them to clear inventory.

  • Italkdigital on 15/02/2022 - 23:43
    -5

    Wow more then the price of my highend Samsung Soundbar, I guess mines no way as portable as this 👍😁

    • d3ft on 16/02/2022 - 08:48
      +18

      High end and soundbar do not belong in the same sentence.

    • jjcf on 16/02/2022 - 09:29
      +6

      wow, more than the price of my HIGH END 1997 Hyundai Excel what a scammmm

      • DONMAI on 16/02/2022 - 11:06
        +3

        i've installed a soundbar on my hyundai excel. additional soundbar as a spoiler

  • jeo on 15/02/2022 - 23:54
    +5

    Crinacle made a video on this headphone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utVTu7KQqdA
    tl;dw: Bass (which was meant to fix the somewhat recessed bass of the HD800S) feels bloated, and the tuning is not quite there yet.
    If something needs to be EQ'd right out of the box it's not a great sign, but can't deny the price is good.

    • dreamscene on 16/02/2022 - 00:31

      Good early review link but remember, the above video review was released right after launch. There are a lot of EQ profiles now released that really change the headphones sound, many experimental EQ profiles are getting released every month as more and more owners receive their HD8XX. This video below mentions sound quality with some early EQ profiles released around last Dec. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd52ghFjMbo&t=198s

      • f23lda on 16/02/2022 - 00:40

        How do you apply your EQ profiles?

        I happen to be wearing original hd800 when I spotted this deal - would be interesting to try some eq profiles

        • dreamscene on 16/02/2022 - 00:52
          +1

          Depends on what device you are listening on. With a PC running Windows, Equalizer APO + Peace is the go to

      • jeo on 16/02/2022 - 01:46
        +1

        I agree, if one is willing to EQ, then it could even be better than the HD800S (since too much bass can be EQd down, but a lack of bass can't be properly EQ'd up). Would suck if someone is using multiple devices and has to set it every time though.

        • zeomega on 16/02/2022 - 09:25

          EQ APO + Peace allows you to switch profiles for different headsets at a click of a button

    • Yukari Yakumo on 16/02/2022 - 04:26

      According to one of the reviews on Head-Fi, someone removed two stickers from the top and bottom of each speaker cup (along with all the residual adhesive), and was able to reduce the effect of the 2k region drop in the HD 8XX in doing so, making the tuning sound slightly closer to the HD 800s. In their words: "800s is still slightly more forward in the 2k region… The 8XX now is slightly reduced in the 2k region, but not enough to dampen vocals, but with that it reduces some of the harshness and definitely still retains more body in the upper bass."

      Does this sound like a realistic and viable mod to you guys, or am I being too gullible on the internet?

      • jasswolf on 16/02/2022 - 09:01
        +1

        This might be accurate, but removing these stickers (the poster identifies two of three) would void any warranty opportunity.

        Sennheiser should however support these locally post-warranty.

        That being said, I doubt that change gets you close enough when there's every chance there will be $1300-$1400 HD 800S sales, not to mention the HIFIMAN Arya Stealth eventually dipping towards this price point.

        AMT and Ribbon headphones are also gunning for this price range, and the latter should have soundstage and imaging in spades, though Ribbon drivers necessitate something akin to a modified speaker amp.

        • Yukari Yakumo on 16/02/2022 - 11:51
          +1

          Thanks, your post was exactly what I needed to convince myself to wait for a proper HD 800s deal (and to keep an eye on competing headphones within the same market segment too). For something of this price, losing warranty does seem like a risky endeavour that I probably don't want to take.

          • jasswolf on 16/02/2022 - 11:54

            @Yukari Yakumo: Make sure to demo the above headphones if you haven't already, and maybe try a pair of RAAL SR-1a and also the HEDDPhone to get an idea of Ribbon and AMT performance.

            • dreamscene on 16/02/2022 - 12:03
              +4

              @jasswolf: Your described above 2 headphones is at $3500 and $6000 in a $1200 headphone deal.

              • jasswolf on 16/02/2022 - 13:10
                -1

                @dreamscene: I described emerging uses of other driver technology. You can get a very, very similar AMT headphone from China for about $1600 AUD, where you also have a ribbon option at the same price too, though I don't have any data on that model.

                For a more affordable ribbon option RAAL have an upcoming circumaural, the RAAL SR2a, that they're in the process of finalising the tuning for, which is targeting a $1900 USD starting price. It's still not there yet price wise, but it's very early days for what is a proven speaker technology for imaging, treble performance and timbre.

                I suspect that will drop in price more than SR1a tends to because of lowered manufacturing costs and standards, as well as the fixed angling of the driver versus the adjustable earspeaker design of the original… should leave them a shade less spacious sounding.

                But if you want a higher value option with excellent imaging, great soundstage, and a little brightness in the mix, the new HIFIMAN Edition XS nails it pretty well at $550-$770 AUD (best Chinese price vs standard AU price). It goes plenty close for most people without quite having the same 'wow it's almost like I'm sitting in a speaker setup' effect.

                • dreamscene on 16/02/2022 - 13:35
                  -1

                  @jasswolf: Not relevant here unless you are flexing :-) HiFiMan Esition XS for $550 AUD landed? Do show me, I will make the order now, hehe.

                  • jasswolf on 16/02/2022 - 13:38

                    @dreamscene: It's completely relevant… people are buying this because it's considered an affordable technical peak for headphones… I'm pointing out that the landscape is in the process of shifting fairly quickly after some ground work was done by HIFIMAN and other Chinese companies.

                    Audeze are also experimenting with ribbon-like designs, and have finally perfected what they are doing with planars via the LCD-5. That approach will begin to trickle down to the rest of their line-up. HIFIMAN are about 2-3 years ahead of Audeze in this respect, and you'll soon see outstanding sub-$300 headphones from them.

                    Sennheiser has some work to do, but I suspect they're already on it.

                    • dreamscene on 16/02/2022 - 13:40

                      @jasswolf: Again non relevant information to the post above. Re. Hifiman Edition XS comment you made earlier for $550 AUD landed, do tell where from.

                      • jasswolf on 16/02/2022 - 13:40
                        -1

                        @dreamscene: AliExpress or Taobao, during sales. Cashbacks are needed, though you do have the option of 100% crypto cashbacks if you're keen to risk getting scammed out of it while destroying the environment.

                        Also dude, really enjoying the tone you've had since it was repeatedly pointed out you mucked up here… not at all salty.

                        • dreamscene on 16/02/2022 - 13:42

                          @jasswolf: Yea, the cheapest I found Edition XS is around $615 AUD with Cashbacks, Aliexpress discount codes, etc. When you said $550, my eyes popped out.

                          • jasswolf on 16/02/2022 - 13:43
                            -1

                            @dreamscene: That's what I paid during Black Friday on AliE with a regular cashback. One seller was offering a better coupon than the standard efforts from others.

                            There may have been an early bird price going as well, but that will likely return in subsequent sales periods.

                            • dreamscene on 16/02/2022 - 13:44

                              @jasswolf: As for Crypto cashbacks, I am not familiar, is it larger discounts?

                              • jasswolf on 16/02/2022 - 13:46

                                @dreamscene: 100% is larger than 10-15%, yes. I'm not helping you any further with that.

                                • dreamscene on 16/02/2022 - 13:51
                                  -1

                                  @jasswolf: So…..irrelevant information again? What is up with Audiophiles posting irrelevant info to replies hehe. It happens everywhere and then they start linking to $6000 headphones and measuring charts. Hehe.

                                  • jasswolf on 16/02/2022 - 13:57

                                    @dreamscene: So now you're potting the basis for why expensive headphones exist… science and the related hobby? Might be time for a break.

                                    Go through my posting history and you'll see I was discussing the 8XX during pre-order, but they mucked this up. Drop hasn't had as many headphone successes as people like to think, and the ones they did have didn't involve thinking they were smarter than some of the best manufacturers of audio in the last 30 years.

  • ChipsChicky on 15/02/2022 - 23:57

    why is it so expensive ?

    • bruc3 on 16/02/2022 - 00:40
      +2

      Honestly, its because its Sennheiser and its basically their flagship headphone, and audiophiles are willing to pay the price tag, so they can simply charge that much.

      • garetz on 16/02/2022 - 01:20
        +1

        The senn 820 is their flagship.

        • Brofung on 16/02/2022 - 01:35

          The 800S is equally 'flagship' as the 820.

          • bcstyle on 16/02/2022 - 01:42
            +8

            @Brofung: The "real flagship" are the Sennheiser HE 1.

            • awesomise on 16/02/2022 - 08:53
              +1

              @bcstyle: Maybe the real flagships are the credit card debts we accrued along the way

        • krisspy on 16/02/2022 - 01:44
          +1

          Nope. HE 1

        • gimli on 16/02/2022 - 06:45
          +3

          S22 is current flagship

      • jasswolf on 16/02/2022 - 08:38
        +6

        No, it's because these are still manufactured in Germany, and still manually tested and adjusted, so you're paying for the labour.

        The technical requirements to produce what the HD 800 and 800S do spatially still necessitate that.

        The extra labour is why you see these prices scale up so dramatically, and why higher price doesn't always mean better for audio: it just means more work done by a company's staff.

    • Forth on 16/02/2022 - 04:39

      In the grand scheme of headphones not really, the planars type can be +2k.
      The Sennies are very musical and flat and great value.
      You can get 90% of way for few hundred dollars and sales.
      I very happy with my Austrian audio x55's not the flattest, with an eq curve are very revealing.

  • Aleigh123 on 16/02/2022 - 00:28

    And here I am agonising over how long I'll have to wait for a $100 keyboard, and $200 headphones to go on sale o.o

    • gimli on 16/02/2022 - 06:45
      -5

      Why u spending so much on keyboard

      • thispasito on 16/02/2022 - 10:01
        +4

        Why not?

        $100 is not expensive for a keyboard.

  • Morien on 16/02/2022 - 01:03

    You can't use ShipItTo Oregon Warehouse on the free plan, unless I'm missing something?

    • zonfierre on 16/02/2022 - 01:07

      You're not missing anything. Oregon isn't free as it circumvents state sales tax.

      • dreamscene on 16/02/2022 - 01:19

        Plethora of Mail Forward companies which are cheaper than ShipItTo as well. That's just 1 example as it's one of the bigger ones. Choose a few different ones from Google search and get quotes.

        • zonfierre on 16/02/2022 - 01:26
          +3

          If we're bringing up alternatives, I'd highly recommend Planet Express. I used Shipito but its quality dropped/price hiked several years ago around the same time COO Jason Luong left for Planet Express.

      • dreamscene on 16/02/2022 - 02:06
        +1

        Shipito Oregon Tax free shipping is $10 for a quick monthly sub which is still cheaper than paying $70 LA tax.

  • garetz on 16/02/2022 - 01:25
    +2

    I would get it if they shipped to Australia, but when you add mail forwarding no longer worth it.

    • zonfierre on 16/02/2022 - 01:27

      What makes you think it's no longer worth it?

      • garetz on 16/02/2022 - 01:28

        You no longer have any warranty, could get lost in transit, many ways to lose your money.

        • krisspy on 16/02/2022 - 01:47
          +3

          Meh. I bought beyer T1's from Us for about $600, eons ago back when they were $1k in Aus. Didn't think twice about returns or warranty.

          Rare to get defects specially from these big brands. It's literally wires and a cone

      • dreamscene on 16/02/2022 - 01:32

        These are expensive headphones and in a niche bracket not many can afford so it's understandable that even with a $700 discount, to many it's still very costly.

        • zonfierre on 16/02/2022 - 01:36
          +2

          Well, it'll never be worth it for that demographic as a 37% discount is as good as it'll ever get on a new pair of H800/XX/S. This deal is only relevant for those who're in the market for said headphone/s.

  • alwaystooslow on 16/02/2022 - 01:34
    -1

    I wouldn't buy the HD8XX. There is no guarantee of replacement parts being held by Drop after the 2 year warranty period expires. For cheaper items sure, but at $1200 you're screwed if anything ever breaks.

    • awesomise on 16/02/2022 - 08:54
      +2

      I had the HD800 for 6 years. The only parts I need to replace are the ear pads and headbands. I assume they're interchangeable with HD8XX. I dropped it more times than I didn't.

      Regardless, I agree with your point. Don't buy the HD8XX, there are better options at the same, if not lower, price.

    • jasswolf on 16/02/2022 - 09:05
      +3

      It's Sennheiser who will be doing repairs, and there's nothing unique about the pads or cables.

      The additional shipping and GST costs are what kill the deal considering the headphone probably needs to be modded out of the box, and the spatial qualities of the HD800S are notably diminished either way.

  • cydia9k on 16/02/2022 - 01:48
    -1

    Did Zeos say buy it? If you say so, audio Jesus

    • dreamscene on 16/02/2022 - 02:01
      +3

      His reviews are unwatchable. I fast forward to the end and watch the 5 min conclusion that is somewhere in the last 15 mins of the video.

    • Larsson on 16/02/2022 - 02:09
      +4

      More like a creepy weeb at best, his incoherent ramblings and near hentai level backgrounds are disturbing.

      • cydia9k on 16/02/2022 - 02:12

        Agreed, but can't say he doesn't know his stuff. At least Crinacle is producing good video content now

  • seerious on 16/02/2022 - 02:14
    +1

    Don’t buy these unless you’re willing to run with EQ 100% of the time.

  • Keeegs on 16/02/2022 - 03:28

    How does Scarlet Fire sound on these?

    • gimli on 16/02/2022 - 06:46
      +3

      I think these dont play it.
      (In built sensor to filter bad music)

    • TheRealCJ on 17/02/2022 - 09:14

      The HurrDurr 8 ucks ucks

  • 7effect on 16/02/2022 - 08:00
    +1

    Nice find OP.
    Also additional $10 off for new sign ups.

  • pkjames on 16/02/2022 - 08:03

    i have the HD800, and have since bought the HD8XX. Slightly better base and extremely good value for money! Only problem is that you have to have some proper set up to drive this baby properly.

    • ddhar on 16/02/2022 - 08:49
      +1

      What about the rest of the spectrum? Is the soundstage bigger or smaller?

      • pkjames on 16/02/2022 - 09:40

        as far as i can tell, they are the same.

    • Jfree on 16/02/2022 - 09:20

      The reviews are pretty bad about HD8XX. What’s your impression?

      • pkjames on 16/02/2022 - 09:40
        +1

        honestly they are very similar. I literally can't tell the difference (on my auralic gemini 2000) apart from the lower bass. Sound signature is exactly the same.

    • sqheaven on 16/02/2022 - 11:48

      What is your DAC/AMP?

      I also have HD800, no plans to go further in head-fi. I use a Polish tube amp and Mojo, Gustard x16.

  • myoda on 16/02/2022 - 08:58

    I tried out the HD800 and Addicted to Audio and just not enough bass for my taste. I'm a little bit of a bass head, but not excessive. HD800 or HD8xx are good for those who enjoy treble/clarity/perhaps more classical music.

    Got the HD6xx instead. Could not be happier to be honest. Got upgraded ear pads and upgraded balanced cable from Drop at same time. You can pick up a pair 'almost new' for much cheaper locally from marketplace

    Powering them through a Bifrost 2 and Jotenheim stack, source in PC (Tidal and Roon) so DAC and amplification is also important. But they are fantastic.

    • bruc3 on 16/02/2022 - 09:04

      I own both the HD6xx and HD800S, and right now the HD6xx is my daily driver and HD800S is sitting in the cupboard.

      For the clarity/detail/imaging and of course soundstage the HD800S takes the cake, but the HD6xx series has the "magic" mids.

      • zeomega on 16/02/2022 - 11:36

        I also own both also and the HD6xx doesn't get used much. A lot of it boils down to genre of music you listen to. I am more classical, jazz, occasional rock. The kind of music that instrument separation and soundstage enhances.

        • bruc3 on 16/02/2022 - 12:14
          +1

          Yes true, so thats why they have an endless amount of different of headphones available as audio is subjective and everyone has different taste/preferences.

      • ilikeblue on 16/02/2022 - 19:37

        If you ever want to sell the HD800s for cheap you know who to look for ;)

    • pkjames on 16/02/2022 - 09:44

      i use to have both the HD600 and 650, they suffer the same problem: clamping my ears. They are just not suitable for long sessions.

      • bruc3 on 16/02/2022 - 12:16

        Yes, clamping force is my only complaint about the HD6xx series, however after a bit of stretching of the headband and prolonged use I find it ok now.

    • sqheaven on 16/02/2022 - 11:49

      There is plenty of bass in HD800 if you are not a bass head, the key is in the DAC/AMP

  • jasswolf on 16/02/2022 - 09:13
    +4

    Once you factor in the bonus Drop points you got to spend, this is the same as the pre-order deal, which was originally available for AU shipping.

    The final tuning saw to it that no one followed through. I doubt the sticker mod ultimately leaves you with enough of an approximation of the HD 800S, more the first tuning Drop wanted to go with but were talked out of after a headphone tour with a prototype.

    No one liked that either, because it blunted the headphone without changing the tonality of it.

    Without the usual tax free affordable ship from Drop, you're better off waiting for Sennheiser to drop price again: they've got a lot of competition gunning for them in that $500-$2000 space these days.

    Going to neg you for promoting that DMS tweet as fact, and the limited price research on this and the HD 800S. You've led a few people down the garden path here.

  • Bunnyburger on 16/02/2022 - 13:10
    +1

    Guys PSA here. Please don't use Shipito, just read the reviews and you'll know why.

    I've used them before 2018 but after the business sold the service has gone down drastically. They lost my tablet until I could produce info it was signed for at the warehouse.

    Do your due diligence.

    • Yukari Yakumo on 16/02/2022 - 14:01
      +1

      Shipito have lost my goodwill, they changed their terms of service, but made no effort to notify everyone affected.

      Many many years ago, I made a Shipito account, with the intention of making purchases in Japan (they used to also have warehouses in Nagasaki, Portland, Las Vegas, and Hong Kong, but these all later closed) and having them forwarded over. Back then, you had to make a deposit first, before they gave you an address to ship to, so I did exactly that. Over time, I still had balance remaining with Shipito intended for future purchases needing parcel forwarding, and eventually forgot about it.

      Fast forward to yesterday, I saw this HD 8XX post on OzBargain and remembered that I still had a bit of money in my Shipito account, so I logged in to check. "Inactive Account" on the login screen.

      Turns out in 2018, they changed their policy so that if you didn't regularly login to your Shipito account, it would be considered inactive and "abandoned" after 2 years, and you'd forfeit any remaining balance on the account. I had received no email notification informing that such changes were implemented, nor any warning emails stating that I should login soon otherwise my account would be closed. I could probably kick up a stink with customer support and try to get my money back (whether this is a worthwhile use of my time is very questionable), but this has honestly left a foul taste in my mouth, I wouldn't use them ever again even if I did get a refund.

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