No, Medicare Should NOT Cover Dental Work

SlavOz on 28/03/2022 - 19:07
Last edited 28/03/2022 - 19:08

This is always a hot topic in Australia. We have such generous healthcare yet people still complain that they have to pay out of pocket for dental work.

While the prospect of having perfect teeth for "free" sounds appealing on paper, everyone seems to ignore the knock-on effects:

dentists will actually become more expensive as they'd no longer have any reason to keep their prices low
the wait times will be increased because more people will be lining up for their free whitening or to fix a lifetime of poor oral hygiene
the quality of care will inevitably decrease as more patients need to be served.

This is the exact same thing we see in hospitals. Nobody goes to the dentist for a mild toothache or because their child is teething. But people willfully clog up the ER thinking they're going to die because of a bad pimple because they know it doesn't cost them anything.

So in the end, the service costs more AND that cost is incurred more often as more people use the service.

Who pays for all that? It comes straight out of your taxes. So you're left paying MORE for an inferior service. It's not just poor economic reasoning, it's a sin of Ozbargain.

Health & Beauty Dental Medicare

Comments

- - - - SF3 on 28/03/2022 - 20:10
        
        +1
        
        @jv: Perhaps it's 100% of population, when their population size is 1… therefore any critique of the whole population is a self reflection?
  - dabs on 29/03/2022 - 10:01
    
    Don't live in a shithole.
  - Trance N Dance on 29/03/2022 - 13:43
    
    You'll find that the GPs that bulk bill will generally be of a certain quality because the good ones are generally busy enough that they can impose a gap to target a clientele that they are happy with. That said there are still plenty of diamonds in the rough out there; still plenty of un-jaded doctors putting in the good work to service the people, especially those not privileged.
- CommuterPolluter on 01/04/2022 - 08:22
  
  I had an issue which required a clean and stitches. Not an emergency but time-sensitive. I called about 25 GPs and none available. Had to go to clog up the ER instead.
triviums on 28/03/2022 - 19:18

+13

the wait times will be increased because more people will be lining up for their free whitening

When has medicare ever covered cosmetic issues?

I recently had surgery and one aspect was cancelled during the surgery itself because it was deemed a cosmetic issue by the surgeon (surgery was fully covered by medicare).
- SlavOz on 28/03/2022 - 19:24 Comment score below threshold.
  - DemocracyManifest on 28/03/2022 - 19:27
    
    +5
    
    I wouldn’t consider that just for ‘lazy’ people: again, it’s preventative and forces people to rethink their choices and change their actions
    - SlavOz on 28/03/2022 - 19:31
      
      -7
      
      No, it does the opposite. It rewards people and allows them to continue down the same path as before (no exercise and bad food choices). The only thing that changes is their stomach can no longer fit more of the shit they put in their mouth, so they inevitably lose weight via artificial restriction of hunger.
      - SBOB on 28/03/2022 - 19:38
        
        +23
        
        @SlavOz: No one gets gastric bypass surgery to 'reward' themselves.
        
        Were you continually teased by some fat kid when you were young or something?
      - SnowDragon on 28/03/2022 - 19:44
        
        +2
        
        @SlavOz: For once agree with you on something on here.
        
        Having your stomach surgically made 1/4th it's usual size is a cop-out method of losing weight.
        
        However in both weight loss and visiting the dentist I believe that anything congenital (like needing braces) should be covered by Medicare.
        
        Having KFC/Maccas and chocolate for every meal shouldn't allow you to get your stomach cut up or teeth fixed for free.
        
        afoveht on 28/03/2022 - 22:13
        
        +1
        
        @SnowDragon: Is novocaine a cop-out for tooth extraction?
        
        Is chemo a cop-out for nature trying to kill you with cancer?
        
        How do you draw your lines?
        
        SnowDragon on 28/03/2022 - 22:46
        
        +3
        
        @afoveht: Obviously the two examples you mentioned should be covered - my own mother died of cancer at age 50 and she lived a perfectly normal and healthy life. Also note I mentioned congenital - anybody could need a tooth extracted or chemo regardless of their birth traits.
        
        I am more talking about things which are due to the lifestyle of the individual. Someone who smokes a pack a day shouldn't be surprised or helped by the tax payer when they develop lung cancer.
        A person who drinks a bottle of vodka a day shouldn't expect the tax payer to fund their expenses when they need a new liver and treatment.
        
        I draw the line when one thinks their long tern bad decisions means that others have to pay for it.
        
        12kahs on 28/03/2022 - 23:17
        
        +6
        
        @SnowDragon: Isn't this part of the reason that ciggies and alcohol are taxed so highly?
        
        Antikythera on 29/03/2022 - 17:39
        
        @SnowDragon:
        
        draw the line when one thinks their long tern bad decisions means that others have to pay for it.
        
        what about a motorcyclist getting their after crash surgery paid for?
        
        SnowDragon on 29/03/2022 - 17:42
        
        +1
        
        @Antikythera: I feel like I need to write an essay or something because people keep nitpicking my comment.
        
        Long term personal health decisions like constantly putting something unhealthy into your own body. Choosing to ride a motorbike or jump out of planes etc is ok.
        
        Diji on 29/03/2022 - 13:13
        
        @SnowDragon: Where do you stand on someone who is overweight or has a mouthful of cavities due to their parents always getting takeaway or not making sure they cleaned their teeth when they were a kid/in their teens (for whatever reason, not passing judgment here)? They go to the doctor/dentist as an adult and get denied because "they made poor life choices, bad luck"? Or do you monitor everyone constantly to figure out who is deserving?
        
        SlavOz on 29/03/2022 - 13:50
        
        -4
        
        @Diji: You know your baby teeth fall out anyway and you get a whole new pair when you become a little older?
        
        Diji on 29/03/2022 - 14:01
        
        @SlavOz: Did you forget that a kid is still a kid by the time their second set of teeth has come through?
        
        SlavOz on 29/03/2022 - 14:04
        
        -2
        
        @Diji: Sure, but if parents don't get the message the first time, that's when we need to rely on other measures like education or even regulations.
        
        We can't just expect the taxpayer to foot that bill. By this logic, people with weight problems due to being raised with poor food choices should get free liposuction and tummy tucks.
      - Save Medicare on 29/03/2022 - 10:56
        
        +3
        
        @SlavOz: Where did you get your medical degree bro? Bariatric surgery is life saving
        
        smartazz104 on 30/03/2022 - 11:02
        
        @Save Medicare: Hollywood Upstairs Medical College.
  - Trance N Dance on 29/03/2022 - 13:47
    
    +2
    
    You do realise that before getting gastric sleeve surgery there's a series of conditions and evaluations that need to be met before one undergoes the procedure. No doctor is going to willy nilly remove a portion of the stomach for cosmetic reasons. The health positives have to outweigh the health negatives/risks (and there are plenty associated with gastric sleeve surgery) to even consider the procedure.
    - SlavOz on 29/03/2022 - 13:53
      
      -2
      
      That doesn't change the fact that people getting gastric sleeve surgery are doing so because they refuse to put in the self responsibility and hard work required to lose weight.
      
      It's the equivalent of giving people free teeth whitening because they refuse to brush every night or lay off rotten foods
      - Trance N Dance on 29/03/2022 - 14:04
        
        @SlavOz: Well yes, a lot of people who end up getting gastric sleeve surgery do so because of a lifetime of poor choices before hand. But who are you to restrict their liberty and freedom of choice. It's not about what lead them to the point of needing gastric surgery but rather what will gastric surgery do for them from that point forwards, ie significantly improve their health, life expectancy and decrease further health issues. There is a significant net benefit for everyone. Improved health and life expectancy means they are more economically productive, reduction in health issues means they'll be less of a burden on the health system.
        
        So in reality, gastric surgery is more akin to giving someone a crown on a broken tooth, or a denture to replace missing teeth. Doesn't matter why they have a broken or missing tooth. It's about what can be done to improve their health from that point onward.
        
        SlavOz on 29/03/2022 - 14:14
        
        -3
        
        @Trance N Dance:
        
        But who are you to restrict their liberty and freedom of choice.
        
        I'm not restricting anything. They have my full support to get a gastric surgery if they want to, just don't expect me to pay for it.
        
        They're the ones restricting my freedom by increasing my taxes.
        
        ie significantly improve their health, life expectancy and decrease further health issues
        
        Not necessarily. If they refused to exercise and eat healthy when their life literally depended on it, I doubt they're going to do so after the gastric surgery. They're still going to eat shitty foods. They're still going to refuse to exercise. They're still going to teach their kids to walk into the same death trap they did. Nothing has changed. They're still more likely to suffer from other diet-related diseases like diabetes, heart disease, GERD, or bowel cancer. All you've done is reduce the risk of obesity.
        
        So while their burden on the healthcare system is slightly reduced, they're still a massive burden overall.
        
        Forcing them to lose weight with hard work and an attitude adjustment will achieve all your purported benefits and more.
        
        Trance N Dance on 29/03/2022 - 14:54
        
        +3
        
        @SlavOz:
        
        I'm not restricting anything. They have my full support to get a gastric surgery if they want to, just don't expect me to pay for it.
        
        They're the ones restricting my freedom by increasing my taxes.
        
        When you go to the doctors for any reason that may have a small chance of being influenced by lifestyle choices you've made previously, please reimburse the taxpayers the Medicare rebate you receive.
        
        Not necessarily. If they refused to exercise and eat healthy when their life literally depended on it, I doubt they're going to do so after the gastric surgery. They're still going to eat shitty foods. They're still going to refuse to exercise. They're still going to teach their kids to walk into the same death trap they did. Nothing has changed. They're still more likely to suffer from other diet-related diseases like diabetes, heart disease, GERD, or bowel cancer. All you've done is reduce the risk of obesity.
        
        You do realise that before someone is ticked off for gastric surgery their dietary habits are assessed first, they need to have exhausted all other options before gastric surgery is even suggested. The comments you've made are highly offensive to those who have decided that they are desperate enough for a solution to their health problems that they are willing to undergo major surgery to cut out a significant portion of their stomach.
SBOB on 28/03/2022 - 19:20

+5

While the prospect of having perfect teeth for "free" sounds appealing on paper,

for someone with a history of medical issues…. when was the last time you went to a doctor for anything more than the most minor issue and it was 'free'?
Bulk billing gp's are a rarity
Medications cost $
specialist visits for referrals cost $

Medicare would be improved if it included preventative dental (in the same was a portion of the cost of going to a gp is).

You could apply the same argument as to why GP visits shouldn't be included in medicare..
the only reason dental isn't, is because no one has yet had the political will or 'balls' to make that call.
Easier to spend billions on submarines than it is to increase health funding for dentists.
popsiee on 28/03/2022 - 19:34

+5

Nice I can think of worst things the govt will waste tax payers money on than my teeth .
dylo on 28/03/2022 - 19:36

+20

Bored with COVID threads, moved on to dental. lol
- djones145 on 28/03/2022 - 19:47
  
  +1
  
  shheeh don't poke the bear!
- Kangal on 28/03/2022 - 20:16
  
  +7
  
  Dental Plan! Lisa needs braces… Dental Plan! Lisa needs braces…
  - iNeed2Pee on 28/03/2022 - 20:24
    
    +2
    
    Thanks a lot Carl, now I have lost my train of thought!….
thatonethere on 28/03/2022 - 19:39

+3

I think a lot of dental issues would be headed off at the pass by regular inspection and cleaning and fissure seals. This comes down to education - as they don't really cost much money compared to letting those issues progress to the later stage. However, encouraging them with medicare might help - private insurance is already encouraging this via extras although geographic coverage is not very equitable. And plenty people don't have private with extras.
- Tech5 on 28/03/2022 - 23:56
  
  +2
  
  Studies have strongly proven that down stream interventions like public education, does not work long term and is not cost effective.
  
  Upstream interventions like policy changes, sugar taxes etc. would be much more effective. But that would require balls from the politicians.
dizzle on 28/03/2022 - 19:54

+6

While the prospect of having perfect teeth for "free" sounds appealing on paper, everyone seems to ignore the knock-on effects:
dentists will actually become more expensive as they'd no longer have any reason to keep their prices low
the wait times will be increased because more people will be lining up for their free whitening or to fix a lifetime of poor oral hygiene
the quality of care will inevitably decrease as more patients need to be served.

To be fair, all of those are arguements the USA uses against a medicare system like ours to begin with. Yet for the most part our medicare works without those becoming an issue. Why would dental work any different?

Personally I feel that basic dental should be covered including preventative. While yes, it may cause more people "clogging" up the dentists office free preventative helps keep worse cases from clogging up the office.
- Kangal on 28/03/2022 - 20:19
  
  -1
  
  Well, the dentists will be paid by Medicare.
  So another way of looking at this is that dentists will be charging much less (eg $50 vs $250), but they will get (x10) more work, and overall probably make (x2) more money. That's a win-win situation for most people, and most dentists. The ones to complain are either the lazy dentists, or the sociopaths/greed.
  - Buwwy on 28/03/2022 - 20:45
    
    Most dental clinics I know don't have issues with patient flow. And if they do, there's a reason for that. The overhead costs for a dental clinic are a lot.. To the point where owning a single practice in a city with 2-3 chairs will probably earn you the same amount as just being an associate.
    It's not even about greed. At those fee levels, clinics would probably be running at a loss, unless they speed through their appointments and compromise on quality which we already see too much of in the dental industry in Australia. I see the pros and cons of having it implemented. But your argument is just invalid, sorry.
    - Kangal on 28/03/2022 - 22:22
      
      +1
      
      We actually have a shortage of dental clinics, look it up. Combine that with short opening hours, and long holiday breaks. That's why you usually don't see low-patient flow. And that also gives them more standing to keep prices high. We rank pretty badly on the international scale, despite having very high costs.
      
      My dentist operates in the suburbs, out of a big house converted into a clinic. Charges reasonable prices. And works fairly fast, without "compromising quality" when it comes to regular checks. Then again, they are migrants and have good work ethic. Despite that, he still has periods where they're full of bookings and walk-ins, and other periods where it's a slow day… you know like most established businesses.
      - Buwwy on 28/03/2022 - 23:16
        
        +1
        
        @Kangal: It's easy to fall in to the illusion that a dentist is doing a great job because they are a likeable person. It's definitely important to trust your dentist but without knowing for sure, you can't say that they aren't compromising quality. There are very few clinics that practice ideal dentistry because frankly, good dentistry takes a lot of time.
        You're not wrong about the shortage (since the pandemic). All I'm saying is that it costs a lot to run a dental clinic (you can blame all the insurance companies and dental suppliers for that) and having medicare fees is not sustainable. We can already anticipate the fees by looking at child dental benefits fee schedule.
        There has to be a compromise somewhere. This is just one of many points. There's a lot to think about before implementing this in to medicare.
        
        Kangal on 29/03/2022 - 09:07
        
        +1
        
        @Buwwy: Those are some neatly thought out points. +1.
        I still think the benefits outweigh the cons. I've seen what happens with lack of regulation, with insurance companies and health corporations getting eager.
        
        Obviously, prevention is still better than the cure.
        Having kids and adults establish good dental practices and habits will pay off much more than throwing money at the problem would. I just think regular check-ups are a part of that strategy. It would cost more to society to have bad dental problems, and having dentists get paid higher to fix those bigger issues.
        
        Trance N Dance on 29/03/2022 - 14:06
        
        @Kangal: You haven't seen the half of it in regards to insurance companies. The ones getting screwed are the providers.
        
        Trance N Dance on 29/03/2022 - 14:05
        
        @Buwwy: Very well put.
      - Trance N Dance on 29/03/2022 - 13:58
        
        @Kangal: We don't have a shortage of dental clinics, we have a shortage of dental clinics in regional and rural areas.
        You usually don't see low-patient flow because if there is a low overall patient flow, the clinic would've gone under due to the inability to pay for the expensive upkeep, overheads and costs to provide dental care. Also you could be seeing bias, you're probably attending the dentist on a day and time that suits you, which so happens to suit 90% of other people as well, so you'll see the clinic as busy.
        
        Here's the thing, what do you know about the actual quality of that dentist's work? Out of the three (low cost, quality, speed) pick two, you can't have the third, it is impossible to have all three and still be profitable at a level where it's worth it, not just at a financial level but at a mental level as well. It's difficult and expensive to provide healthcare, let alone good healthcare.
  - zzzz99 on 28/03/2022 - 22:23
    
    +4
    
    This is probably one of the most incorrect and stupid comments on this entire thread.
    
    You do understand that regardless of how much dentists charge, the time to complete a given procedure on a particular patient remains the same?
    
    So if a $250 treatment that takes 1 hour is reduced to $50, instead of billing $250/hour that is now reduced to $50/hour. Even though dentists may get "x10 more work", this still effectively reduced our income 5-fold. How would you like that mate?
    
    And now add all the extra stress for having to deal with 10x more people lining up outside your door demanding to be seen today. As well as having to hire more support staff such as practice managers and receptionists to account for this influx of people wanting treatment.
    
    There is a reason why dentists are paid what they are paid. Don't call us lazy, greedy sociopaths when you have no idea what is even involved in our job.
  - Tech5 on 28/03/2022 - 23:44
    
    +2
    
    If I get paid 5x less, but make 2x more, does that mean I need to work 10x faster? A 1 hour crown should now be completed in 6 minutes?
    
    The other issue is material costs. Would landlords charge 5x less rent? Would labs charge 5x less to make a crown? To give you an idea, the british NHS pays $500 aud for a crown. A lab charges $350-$1200 to make a crown here.
  - Trance N Dance on 29/03/2022 - 13:30
    
    So work more, get paid the same or marginally more? That argument undervalues the service a practitioner provides. There is only so many hours in a day and only so many patients you can see in a set amount of time. By halving the pay structure and doubling the patient load, you just made someone work twice as hard for the same pay. You're example of a five fold increase in patients is unrealistic.
    That's an even quicker way to burn out more dentists in a field with a high suicide and burn out rate.
- SlavOz on 29/03/2022 - 00:07
  
  -5
  
  Yet for the most part our medicare works without those becoming an issue.
  
  Certainly not the case. Every downside I mentioned to making dental Medicare funded already applies to regular healthcare, especially the part about too many patients decreasing the quality of care and increasing wait times.
  
  Hospitals are short on beds and nurses. At least 30% of ER visits are people outright abusing the system. Even semi-private specialists which are partly funded by a Medicare rebate can take up to 3 months to get an appointment.
  
  Healthcare in Australia is good but anyone who's ever been legitimately ill and relied on it will tell you that it's got some big issues. Unless you take matters into your own hands, push your doctors, and are willing to pay out of pocket, you're not going to get very far with serious illnesses.
  - Diji on 29/03/2022 - 13:21
    
    +1
    
    Unless you take matters into your own hands, push your doctors, and are willing to pay out of pocket, you're not going to get very far with serious illnesses.
    
    As opposed to a system like the US, where you're not going to get very far with illnesses regardless of seriousness, unless you have the cash or the insurance. I do agree, it'd be so much better if the poors weren't clogging up our health system so I didn't have to wait as long.
AustriaBargain on 28/03/2022 - 20:00

+2

The answer to all your questions is that we will have more dentists. If suddenly there were 100 million dental consults and procedures per year instead of 50 million because it was covered under medicare, then we would train and hire twice as many dentists. I agree the state is pure scum and corruption will be rampant, but that's still better than no dental care at all. And besides how bad could the corruption really be when every single thing a dentist does is in the dentist chair and with someone's mouth. Much easier to run a tight ship when it comes to dentists compared to medicine as a whole. Dental should be a public service and the only people who should fear it are dentists because it could cost them some money. It's no coincidence that dentists are sent free subscriptions to yacht owner magazines.
- Trance N Dance on 29/03/2022 - 14:09
  
  I don't know, I keep hearing dentists complaining about how much they have to pay for their subscriptions to dinghy owner magazines. The ones with the paid yacht owner magazines are the practice owners and not the majority of dentists who are associates or working in the public sector.
iNeed2Pee on 28/03/2022 - 20:13

+2

I just do a Chuck Noland and use an ice skate to rip out my infected teeth.
netjock on 28/03/2022 - 20:30

The answer is. We can have it covered by medicare. Just be prepared for more taxes. No magic money trees.
- altomic on 28/03/2022 - 22:32
  
  +4
  
  or tax ebay, starbucks, amazon, etc ( i.e. all the non-tax paying companies) and then everyone could have solid gold teeth.
Crosscade on 28/03/2022 - 20:32

+8

24-hours limit for voting negative on comments is currently capped at 5
- pegaxs on 28/03/2022 - 22:11
  
  +5
  
  I am convinced that SlavOz is a bot like @system and is only deployed to reset the whole site’s user base’s neg vote count for the day…
holdenmg on 28/03/2022 - 20:34

Damn, I thought by now we would have seen Watermelon advanced as a cure for all ills.
hm on 28/03/2022 - 20:35

Ok
deme on 28/03/2022 - 21:12

+7

How do I downvote this
- jackary on 28/03/2022 - 21:19
  
  -1
  
  Click the button called “bookmark”. Hope this helps
zzzz99 on 28/03/2022 - 21:55

+13

As a dentist, the sheer amount of ignorance from OP as well as some commenters is pretty sad. It shows just how little the public understand the profession and the work we do.

From comments about quality of care to overseas dentists to the money we earn… I don't even know where to start
- SlavOz on 28/03/2022 - 22:04
  
  +2
  
  I have not said a single bad word about dentists mate. I am not an anti-dentite
  - iNeed2Pee on 28/03/2022 - 22:24
    
    Hahaha but you are a Seinfeld fan!
    - Herbse on 29/03/2022 - 09:32
      
      That makes it hard to judge him now..
      - iNeed2Pee on 29/03/2022 - 09:49
        
        @Herbse: I know. Very difficult indeed!
  - Trance N Dance on 29/03/2022 - 14:11
    
    You might not have said a single bad word about dentists but your knowledge of how healthcare works is extremely naive or ill informed.
pegaxs on 28/03/2022 - 22:03

+8

God damn it, I only just got my negs back as well… I didn’t read all of it, but can someone tell me, is SlavOz back up on their fatties soap box and how only fatties need dental work because of all the sugar they consume and it rots their teeth and how this is self inflicted?

Edit: lol… it’s ok, I found it. 5 comments in and it’s all about teaching the fatties a lesson. Stay classy, SlavOz.
loropy9 on 28/03/2022 - 22:04

+1

Slavoz, congratulations on you degree in dentistry!
altomic on 28/03/2022 - 22:31

+3

when I lived in Japan I used their universal health covered dentist. excellent work.
LordSydney on 28/03/2022 - 22:32

+4

Hey hey OzBargain, it's been a while. Randomly came across this in the sidebar while searching for a new phone plan.. down the OzBargain rabbithole 😂

SlavOz, I love your posts usually but this one I have to disagree with.

I think that dental care (within reason) should be covered by Medicare equally as public healthcare.
While it may seem costly in the short term, I believe it would actually SAVE money in the long term considering the impact poor oral hygiene and dental care has to health & well-being in general.

In December 2016 the National Council of Social Services in NSW in its report ‘Poor Health: the cost of living in NSW’ found that:

Almost 40% of people earning under $75,000 p.a. cannot afford to see a dentist.
Of those who do see a dentist, one in five do not go ahead with the recommended treatment because it is too expensive.
Poor dental health not only affects a person’s overall health but also makes it harder to find a job, particularly for young people.
There is a huge disparity in the availability of dental services, particularly in rural and remote areas.
There were 107,322 adults and 13,284 children on NSW public dental waiting lists.

The situation has worsened since then.

In this blog on 23 August, 2018, Professor Lesley Russell, adjunct associate professor at the Menzies Centre for Health Policy at Sydney University, pointed out that the total amount spent on dental care was $9.9 billion in 2015/16 and individuals contributed 51% for out-of-pocket dental costs.

Bad teeth cause of sickness, malnutrition, disability and even death. In 2015/16, there were more than 67,000 preventable hospital admissions because of poor oral hygiene.

A 2018 study concluded that a majority of Australians supported expanded dental care within Medicare and reduced taxpayer funding for private health insurance.
https://johnmenadue.com/why-dental-care-was-excluded-from-me…

Things are moving in the right direction with the World Health Organisation:

WHO response

The World Health Assembly approved a Resolution on oral health in 2021 at the 74th World Health Assembly. The Resolution recommends a shift from the traditional curative approach towards a preventive approach that includes promotion of oral health within the family, schools and workplaces, and includes timely, comprehensive and inclusive care within the primary health-care system. The Resolution affirms that oral health should be firmly embedded within the noncommunicable disease agenda and that oral health-care interventions should be included in universal health coverage programs.

The World Health Assembly delegates asked WHO: to develop a draft global strategy on tackling oral diseases for consideration by WHO governing bodies in 2022; and by 2023: to translate the global strategy into an action plan for oral health; to develop “best buy” interventions on oral health; and to explore the inclusion of noma within the roadmap for neglected tropical diseases 2021-2030. WHO was asked to report back on progress and results until 2031 as part of the consolidated report on noncommunicable diseases.
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/oral-health
p1 ama on 28/03/2022 - 22:41

+6

This is always a hot topic in Australia. We have such generous healthcare yet people still complain that they have to pay out of pocket for dental work.

FWIW, I don't really hear anyone "complain" about having to pay out of pocket for dental work, so nice try and painting your opposition as complainers and whingers before even starting the debate.

While the prospect of having perfect teeth for "free" sounds appealing on paper, everyone seems to ignore the knock-on effects:

It's not about having "perfect teeth", but recognition that there are genuine health issues associated with peoples' teeth that are no different to things that are already covered by our public health system. In other words, if I fall over and break my arm, that's covered by Medicare, and I can go get it "fixed" (i.e. put in a cast…etc.), but if I fall over and knock out a tooth, it won't be covered. That seems ridiculous to me.

dentists will actually become more expensive as they'd no longer have any reason to keep their prices low

There is no evidence of this - GPs in Australia are free at the point of service, have their prices risen to ridiculous levels?

the wait times will be increased because more people will be lining up for their free whitening or to fix a lifetime of poor oral hygiene

Nobody is advocating for free cosmetic procedures, so I think you're strawmanning here. Fixing up a lifetime of poor oral hygiene? Well in that case, perhaps hospitals should kick out those there to fix up a lifetime of poor diet, or a lifetime of poor back posture or whatever other issues you can blame on the person.

the quality of care will inevitably decrease as more patients need to be served.

Again, this seems to be a strange moral take. If you're saying that the quality of care we get now is because there are people who need the care but can't get it, and if those people were to get it, then we would not have the quality of care we have now, then the right solution is that we need to train more dentists, not deny the care to people who cannot afford it.

This is how we address shortages in any other industry. Think of how your argument sounds in any other context. If everyone could access schools, that would reduce the quality of education. If everyone could access the fire brigade, that would reduce the quality of firefighting. If everyone could access the garbage truck, that would reduce the quality of garbage collection. Does this sound reasonable to you? Or is the solution that we should increase the number of teachers, firemen, garbage truck drivers…etc. (and perhaps dentists)?

This is the exact same thing we see in hospitals. Nobody goes to the dentist for a mild toothache or because their child is teething.

Yes, and since they do not go to the dentist for the mild toothache, that toothache will become a serious toothache, will cause other health problems, then will become infected, next minute they're at the local ED costing you more $$$. Genius.

But people willfully clog up the ER thinking they're going to die because of a bad pimple because they know it doesn't cost them anything.

My man, have you been to an ER? Trust me, nobody willfully goes to that sort of hellhole. It's the most boring place full of sick people. I'd have to be pretty f'ing close to dead before I'd go to the ER. What are you talking about?

So in the end, the service costs more AND that cost is incurred more often as more people use the service.

Eh, let's make everything expensive then. Not have social insurance for anything. The funny thing is, we already know how this sort of society will end. You're gonna die when you get eaten by a fox because there's no public service to capture them, no public service to give you treatment, nobody cares about anyone. That would be a great place to live hey?
- cookie2 on 28/03/2022 - 23:51
  
  +1
  
  You're awesome. And agree with you on each point. Preventative and medically required dental work is where i stand. Everyone instantly disagreeing remind me of people I work with that say "no, we can't" , without actually stopping to really think if something "should or could" be improved/modified.
- SlavOz on 29/03/2022 - 10:55
  
  -5
  
  FWIW, I don't really hear anyone "complain" about having to pay out of pocket for dental work
  
  Really? This thread is full of them. You're borderline doing it as well lol.
  
  there are genuine health issues associated with peoples' teeth
  
  The majority of which can be easily self-prevented or managed with good brushing and better diet. But of course, we all know there are just way too many fat lazy people in Australia to reasonably expect this.
  
  Think of how your argument sounds in any other context. If everyone could access schools, that would reduce the quality of education. If everyone could access the fire brigade, that would reduce the quality of firefighting.
  
  Now you're comparing a convenience to a commodity. This is like saying since healthcare is free, all food should be free as well because we need it to live. Might as well make gym memberships free too since everyone needs to stay healthy right?
  
  FYI, we do control the number of people who use the fire brigade as there are usually call-out fees or fines for false alarms. These are intended to be deterrents.
  
  Yes, and since they do not go to the dentist for the mild toothache, that toothache will become a serious toothache
  
  Jesus Christ you're such a pessimistic doomsdayer. Take it easy man.
  
  My man, have you been to an ER? Trust me, nobody willfully goes to that sort of hellhole
  
  You've been logically wrong throughout your entire post but now you're just objectively wrong as per the data on this
  
  More than one-third of emergency department (ED) presentations in 2018–19 were for lower urgency care according to a new report by the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare (AIHW). Some of these presentations could have been managed by GPs or community health services.
  
  And yes, I've been to the ER many, many times. Trust me, the worst part of it all isn't the intense pain, it's having to put up with the stupidity of people waiting in line clutching a papercut or stomach-ache that hasn't gone away in a few days.
[Deactivated] on 28/03/2022 - 22:43

+8

Not exactly sure why dental shouldn't be under healthcare. We spend money on preventative measures like bowl cancer because it costs us more in the long run if we don't. Pekople go to the doctors for a sore throat or blood test because they feel like it and it's free and you're worried about someone getting a free cavity fill out root canal for pain? What the (profanity)?
- netjock on 28/03/2022 - 23:05
  
  If you got rotten teeth they can pull it out and put in a fake.
  
  If you got bowl cancer they can remove your bowl and put in a fake.
  
  It is fine to advocate for universal dental care under Medicare. I am just wondering whether people know how much more in taxes they need to pay for it to happen.
  - p1 ama on 28/03/2022 - 23:08
    
    +2
    
    It is fine to advocate for universal dental care under Medicare.
    
    Nobody is calling for "universal" dental care though. I've not heard anyone say that you should be able to get your teeth whitened or get orthodontics for free, but rather, the question is whether someone with a toothache should be able to get it fixed for free.
    - netjock on 29/03/2022 - 03:11
      
      +1
      
      Universal health care like Medicare doesn't mean you get Botox or lipo.
  - [Deactivated] on 29/03/2022 - 08:05
    
    +2
    
    Why should someone just wait until their teeth are so rotten they need to pull it out? How does this not fall under the category of health?
    
    More taxes? Do you have evidence for that? Even if it is, I believe the outcome will be more beneficial than the costs. The same arguments anyone against this makes is the exact same argument you could make for universal healthcare. Yet we're not exactly bankrupt from it and we actually spend less than Americans.
    - netjock on 29/03/2022 - 12:40
      
      People wait too long and end up getting diagnosed with cancer when it is too late.
      
      Some people only get tattoos when they are too drunk to remember they are scared of needles.
      
      People who ask questions and assume they are always right.
      
      As for taxes. If you read all my comments. I am not against it but I am suggesting whether people want to accept the taxes (or cuts)
      
      Look at the national debt (before COVID). No tax rises and more expenditure means cuts elsewhere or tax rises.
      - [Deactivated] on 29/03/2022 - 15:55
        
        @netjock: I'm just trying to figure out why dental is so different to other health related issues. I can go see the GP once a week or for a prescription for an over the counter medication and it costs $70+ per visit or just to get a (profanity) fake medical certificate. ONE free dental check up as a preventative measure will be nothing. Besides, afaik most people hate the dentist anyways…
        
        How about we start taxing mining more instead of giving handouts or making sure large corporations pay their fair share? Or you know, look into the millions spent on detention camps where it's something like $100,000 per year per person. Plenty of places to take money from mate.
        
        netjock on 29/03/2022 - 19:22
        
        @[Deactivated]: Plenty of places to take money from. Might just be you.
        
        Maybe after dental you'd want to fight for free glasses. Then you'll need to hit up someone else for money. Or we just tap you too.
        
        I am all for it if people want to pay for it. Just don't go thinking there is many cuts elsewhere that won't touch you
        
        [Deactivated] on 29/03/2022 - 19:42
        
        @netjock: Yeah you're right, might be me but overall, each person still might be paying less than what we have now. Again, look at how much Americans spend on healthcare versus what we do and a lot of them are scared to go doctors due to financial reasons. What do you see the difference being? Why is dental so different to our healthcare system? You keep repeating the same garbage over and over again. At least with optometry I can get check ups for free. I'm just so sick of financial excuses for things that will improve the wellbeing of society but no one seems to care about the billions we give to companies.
        
        netjock on 29/03/2022 - 21:25
        
        @[Deactivated]:
        
        You keep repeating the same garbage over and over again.
        
        Takes one to know one I guess. I keep on asking whether people are willing to pay for it by higher taxes but everyone seems to want to apply some tax to someone else but me (which I assume companies will make back by paying lower wages and less dividends, so who ultimately pays?).
        
        Don't worry I deal with people who believe there is some magic money tree every day of the week because doing the math is impossible.
        
        At least with optometry I can get check ups for free
        
        You get a free eye test every 2 years on medicare. It still doesn't solve your eye sight problem, you still need to fork out for glasses. That is like getting a teeth check every two years (maybe they should give everyone a free dental check up every year, that is one excuse gone). So the difference is not that much.
        
        p1 ama on 29/03/2022 - 22:00
        
        @netjock:
        
        I keep on asking whether people are willing to pay for it by higher taxes but everyone seems to want to apply some tax to someone else but me
        
        To be honest, many people pay a fair bit in Extras cover just for dental, so there is a question around whether overall many would be better off with certain services covered under Medicare.
        
        My only gripe with this is that it seems to be more divisive than it really needs to be. Specific procedures and rebates covered by Medicare change on a regular basis, many of which are much more expensive than fillings or tooth extraction.
        
        [Deactivated] on 30/03/2022 - 07:59
        
        @netjock:
        
        Takes one to know one I guess.
        
        Ouch
        
        I keep on asking whether people are willing to pay for it by higher taxes but everyone seems to want to apply some tax to someone else but
        
        Sure I would. I think it'll cost each person a few hundred a year but considering one filling costs thousands, it seriously might be worth it. You missed the point though, people like you are always arguing where were going to get them money and you assume it must be from us but you ignore all the wasted money going into certain industries and the tax we don't collect from larger companies.
        
        Don't worry I deal with people who believe there is some magic money tree every day of the week because doing the math is impossible.
        
        The government just literally gave millions $1500 a fortnight for over a year… Dental will cost around 5B-10B (which is roughly what we spend every year anyways without universal dental) out of the 100B we already spend on Medicare.
        
        The Grattan Institute says 2 million people are not getting the care they need because of the cost.
        
        A shortfall of dental care leads to greater health problems. We now have greater understanding of how oral health and body health interact. Diabetes in particular has a “two-way” relationship with oral health. Inflammation of the gums — known as periodontitis — can make the symptoms of diabetes worse, and having periodontitis is a risk factor for getting diabetes. Poor oral health is also linked to poor heart health.
        
        Something like 90% of adults and 40% of children have had tooth decay but many don't go to the dentist because of costs. A lot of people also end up in hospital because of it, which we pay for. People wait years on the waiting list for dental which ultimately gets worse and ends up costing MORE to fix. Again, while we will spend money, it's a fraction of what we already spend and I think the overall benefits to society will be much greater.
        
        You get a free eye test every 2 years on medicare. It still doesn't solve your eye sight problem, you still need to fork out for glasses.
        
        The difference is glasses only cost a couple of hundred, not thousands. Secondly, getting regular eye checks isn't so we can get glasses, it's to monitor the health of the eye before someone develops untreatable cataract or glaucoma….
        
        You keep ignoring the parallels with medicare as a whole. Your arguments of 'who pays' and 'its going to cost a lot' is the exact same argument people would have made with medicare yet no one wants to abolish medicare. Why is dental so different? Seriously?
        
        netjock on 30/03/2022 - 09:28
        
        @[Deactivated]:
        
        Sure I would. I think it'll cost each person a few hundred a year but considering one filling costs thousands, it seriously might be worth it.
        
        I had like 6 tooth pulled out when I was 7 years old. Too much sweets. Also had about 4 fillings from then till now. Religiously brush (although I get told off for not flossing). Maybe sugar tax should be used to fund it. Because if we put a tax on stuff we dig out of the ground in outback western Australia it is just magic money. If you forced people to bury their own rubbish in their backyard they would think three times about buying stuff and generating non recyclable rubbish.
        
        The government just literally gave millions $1500 a fortnight for over a year… Dental will cost around 5B-10B (which is roughly what we spend every year anyways without universal dental) out of the 100B we already spend on Medicare.
        
        Assume you are talking about JobKeeper for a once in a century pandemic. People could use the 1500 per fortnight they got from the government to do dental work.
        
        A shortfall of dental care leads to greater health problems. We now have greater understanding of how oral health and body health interact
        
        Chinese people have a saying. Illness goes through your mouth (through food into your stomach) and trouble comes out of your mouth (words). Been around at least 100 years this saying. Yes there are exceptionally bad luck cases like birth defects.
        
        The difference is glasses only cost a couple of hundred, not thousands.
        
        You can get $200 cheap glasses or you can get $600 photo chromatic (light changing). Expensive as you want.
        
        Secondly, getting regular eye checks isn't so we can get glasses, it's to monitor the health of the eye before someone develops untreatable cataract or glaucoma….
        
        Same as getting dental checks without need for fillings or any work is it not?
        
        You keep ignoring the parallels with medicare as a whole.
        
        What parallels? The point is that it isn't parallel that is why OP is on about it.
        
        [Deactivated] on 31/03/2022 - 07:53
        
        @netjock:
        
        Maybe sugar tax should be used to fund it.
        
        Here's another suggestion, how about the 2.6 billion extra funding private schools are getting? They already get funded more than government schools and they charge like 10-30k per kid.
        
        You can get $200 cheap glasses or you can get $600 photo chromatic (light changing). Expensive as you want
        
        What's your point…they both still work to solve the problem and won't get you into the thousands.
        
        What parallels? The point is that it isn't parallel that is why OP is on about it
        
        Main arguments:
        
        It cost too much (yet for some reason billions are spent on stupid stuff like private schools and mining grants and apparently we don't have enough money.
        
        It's going to cost us more
        
        It's peoples own fault for not eating well. Even your Chinese quote states 'illness' not dental work.
        
        What I'm saying is all your arguments can be said for abolishing medicare and are the same arguments the Americans make when universal healthcare is brought up. Yet pretty much all countries with universal healthcare spend a fraction of what the US does. Your arguments are baseless because you don't have anything to back them up while there are plenty of health care professionals and studies that advocate for dental being a part of medicare.
        
        netjock on 31/03/2022 - 10:32
        
        @[Deactivated]: You are on something but it just ain't realistic.
        
        Taking money from somewhere else is your pitch. Until there is nothing left to take. Maybe they should take the money from private health care subsidy or jack up the Medicare levy surcharge and push all those people back into the public system and see how it goes.
        
        You are just arguing for zero tax rises but more benefits for a section of the community. Basically a lobbyist takes from one and gives to the other. Net zero.
        
        Arm chair economists / accountants. Maybe if you are so brilliant run for political office. But then I don't think you deal too well when people says no to your funny money ideas.
        
        [Deactivated] on 31/03/2022 - 18:17
        
        @netjock: I already said I'm happy to pay the difference and have never said once that we shouldn't raise taxes (but you just love putting these words into my mouth don't you because you don't have a real argument) but the idea that we don't have money when we waste billions is absolute rubbish. Again this seems to be your only argument, the same argument that is made against universal healthcare in America which has been proven wrong by so many countries and an idea you seemingly just want to ignore while perpetuating your idea that we just can't scrape 5 billion somehow or that if we do, it's just not worth it. Like how dense can you be? 2.6 billion ADDITIONAL funding to a tiny percentage of the population and YOU don't seem to question where this money is coming from. Yet 5-7 billion (less than 10% of what we already spend on healthcare and ignoring the prices paid to insurance for dental, the cost of dental already spent every year, and the savings in prevention and health issues caused by poor dental) for universal dental healthcare and now it's suddenly funny money WHEN I HAVE SAID, sure raise taxes. I'm starting to think you're a troll…surely no one can be this retar***.
        
        How is it taking from one group and giving it to another when it's universal…and then you have to look at the group were taking money from. If the government decided one day were going to give 50Billion to Google a year, are you just going to sit back and say it's none of our concern and we're just lobbying? And yet for some reason you never justify why these billions spent on private health insurance, private schools, and mining companies is even justifiable.
        
        netjock on 31/03/2022 - 22:27
        
        @[Deactivated]: Nowhere in the above did you state you are willing to pay.
        
        Just willing to take from elsewhere because there must be money given we spend so much.
        
        I think enough said. Taking to you is a waste of energy.
        
        I keep asking the same question because you never answer the question about accepting raising taxes. You just wants money to come from elsewhere.
        
        [Deactivated] on 01/04/2022 - 07:40
        
        @netjock: You asked above whether I would be willing to pay for it to which I responded 'sure I would'. Third last comment not including this one. Why are you so fixated on this one question? The reason I bring up other sectors is to demonstrate the money we spend on other things, things that DONT contribute to the wellbeing of society. So it only stands to reason that if we can spend money on that sort of stuff, why is universal dental such a problem? Or we take the money that is spent poorly and put it to better use. Is this not sensible to you? Not to mention that you clearly don't want to pay extra taxes so I'm just giving you EXAMPLES of places we could take money from and how ridiculous you are to argue against a universal dental system that WILL contribute to the wellbeing of society when you don't seem to care about the billions spent that don't. You're free to disagree but again, you've provided no reason why (because you're a troll right?). But sure, raise taxes if we really can't spare the billions we give to private education for example. You're clearly facing some form of cognitive dissonance and just holding on to this belief that I don't want to pay for it. Well here I am saying I am willing to. Of course once I've said that, you've basically got nothing else so you'll say 'talking is a waste of time' because what else have you got? Nothing.
        
        You're the only not answering questions mate. Look at your last 4 comments. It's the ONLY thing you talk about and it's such a non argument.
        
        You sound like Americans who watch SkyNews that think that universal healthcare is impossible because it would cost too much.
        
        My previous comment: Sure I would. I think it'll cost each person a few hundred a year but considering one filling costs thousands, it seriously might be worth it.
        
        netjock on 01/04/2022 - 09:44
        
        @[Deactivated]:
        
        we spend on other things, things that DONT contribute to the wellbeing of society.
        
        How would you know? Your house doesn't contribute to the good of society just you and your family which is a small fry. Maybe we should compulsory acquire it at below market value and turn it into park.
        
        Your whole argument hinges on the fact you know better. I just don't think that is the fact.
        
        Not to mention that you clearly don't want to pay extra taxes
        
        How did you come to that conclusion given all I asked was whether people are happy to pay more taxes. I have private health insurance which is a defacto tax to replace medicare levy surcharge which is also a tax. You don't see me complaining. If I got free dental with medicare levy surcharge then more than happy to drop private health insurance.
        
        You just like the idea of free unfortunately the only thing that is free in life is sunshine, air and rain. Everything have to be paid for.
        
        [Deactivated] on 01/04/2022 - 12:44
        
        @netjock:
        
        Your whole argument hinges on the fact you know better. I just don't think that is the fact.
        
        Because Australia has one of the highest rates of private education and funding among the developed countries. I can send you peer reviewed articles if you would like on the impact this has on inequality. There has been a report on mining in Australia which has demonstrated it's favouritism towards the ones that own it, they pay a tax rate of around 10% compared to countries that have nationalised their mines and used it to fund social projects. Again, I have the article on this as well. Written by experts.
        
        Then there have health experts that advocate for the need for dental to be covered in medicare.
        
        And what does your argument hinge on exactly? It's too expensive? Yeah great argument.
        
        You just like the idea of free unfortunately the only thing that is free in life is sunshine, air and rain. Everything have to be paid for.
        
        Again, when did I say it was free? I said I'm happy to increase taxes if that's what it takes. Why do you keep assuming i think it's free? And to be fair, I've never had any expensive dental work done. I take really good care of my teeth. But again, despite for the third or fourth time now that I'm happy to pay for it, you seem to think I want it to be free and ignore why I mentioned all the previous stuff before and that is that we blow billions already. You seem to focus on this one non argument for some reason, oh it's because you have nothing else
        
        edit: actually I don't have access to uni libraries anymore but you can just go on Google scholar and read the abstracts
        
        netjock on 01/04/2022 - 13:44
        
        @[Deactivated]:
        
        I can send you peer reviewed articles if you would like on the impact this has on inequality. There has been a report on mining in Australia which has demonstrated it's favouritism towards the ones that own it, they pay a tax rate of around 10% compared to countries that have nationalised their mines and used it to fund social projects
        
        You talking about the university research papers that are pumped out just for the sake of it trying to raise their reputation. You got sucked in big time. You can always find a niche argument. I can manipulate the data and see stuff that isn't there too. You know the avocado harvest in Mexico raises flu cases in the northern hemisphere every year right? It doesn't make sense but it happens.
        
        Private education impact on equality. Fact is most of those family are already well off. It actually isn't child education outcomes. What about all those public school kids who come out and becomes tradies on $200k but only pay $5k of income tax because they have spent it all on trade goods, paid their wives (and mum and dad) to avoid paying higher marginal tax rates.
        
        Nationalising stuff is always good. If you're a communist or a dictatorship. The benevolent dictatorship we all love to have.
        
        we blow billions already
        
        That is your opinion. Why don't you join the public service and hold them back from blowing it. Oh, it is easier to just throw stones.
        
        [Deactivated] on 01/04/2022 - 18:27
        
        @netjock: Yeah ok you don't want to evidence either because you don't believe it. Who says anything about manipulating data? Read the papers and make conclusions yourself but you're not even doing that and it's clear then that nothing can change your mind. Let's assume you're right and all the money is going into the right places and we can't scrape the 5-10 billion we need. For the fifth and final time, I said raise taxes if we need to, I don't care. But again, you keep coming to this non-issue that I only brought up because you kept bringing up financials.
        
        Again, despite me trying to a) find solutions on where we can find the money because it seems to be a massive issue for you even though it's probably barely a percent of what we spend anyways b) try to justify why we could get this money based on evidence I can get and c) explain why the benefit to cost ratio is probably worth the expense regardless, an argument made by experts, you keep repeating the same non sense even insinuating that Norway and Alaska are communist and/or a dictatorship. At least I'm trying to provide some external opinions and data whereas you're just talking out of your ass while ignoring everything else because it's much easier for you to focus only one one aspect so you can continue your whataboutism. It's like you have zero brain cells. You've gone so far from the issue at hand which is universal dental to simply whether we can spare 5-10 billion for ANYTHING. At the very least, you can type and spell coherently. I'll give you that.
        
        netjock on 01/04/2022 - 18:47
        
        @[Deactivated]: If universal dental is such good policy you'd think the party who wants to win government would have caught on.
        
        Pretty much says it all.
        
        If it is that good I suggest you run for government and have it as your primary policy.
        
        Obviously you got more brain cells but is zero brain cell people like me going to vote for it? Can you make it work.
        
        The government just gave away billions in fuel excise reduction, low in tax offset and money to Centrelink recipients. By your argument more than enough for universal dental.
mr-incredulous on 28/03/2022 - 23:17
The introduction of Medicare and the decision to not include dental seems to be an interesting natural experiment of public vs. private healthcare systems. In general I don't really like the arguments of SlavOz although I do think the status quo is pretty good. A few points about the private dental system:

Great number and diversity of providers catering to different budgets and delivering different kinds of services.

Constant innovation as new treatments/practices can be adopted quickly.

Transparency in cost (as the consumer you actually know the dollar value of the treatment you are getting) and dentist can use their discretion.

When you see the dentist you are the customer, you dictate what happens. Dentists usually do a great job of informing about the options and allowing customers to choose. When you see the GP, Medicare is the customer, you have little say.

It's one of the few domains in Australia where individuals retain their personal responsibilities.

Spending on dental will go up in a public system. Sure, out of pocket costs will go down, but it all needs to be paid for and now you have a bureaucracy to feed.
- Herbse on 29/03/2022 - 09:41
  
  +3
  
  Oral care becomes something only achievable by people with surplus income
  
  Families have to decide between preventative care or rent/food
  
  People who "retain their personal responsibility" to save a few hundred dollars on preventative measures because money is tight end up needing to spend thousands later on
  
  No overall oversight or regulation of practices or pricing meaning dentists can charge anything and customers can't complain
t_c on 28/03/2022 - 23:27

+3

Free for everyone under 18 would be a good compromise and ease the financial burden on parents and guardians.
- Tech5 on 28/03/2022 - 23:42
  
  +1
  
  To be honest, under 18 dental care is already well covered. For low income families, the medicare CDBS scheme provides something like $1000 every 2 years. For mid to high income families which should theoretically have health insurance, this is also fully covered.
  - cookie2 on 28/03/2022 - 23:45
    
    Health insurance doesn't "fully cover" and also that's a big if that people have it and have extras cover too. The definition of low income used by dhs is very different to what I deem low income and many miss out.

No, Medicare Should NOT Cover Dental Work

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