No, Medicare Should NOT Cover Dental Work

SlavOz on 28/03/2022 - 19:07
Last edited 28/03/2022 - 19:08

This is always a hot topic in Australia. We have such generous healthcare yet people still complain that they have to pay out of pocket for dental work.

While the prospect of having perfect teeth for "free" sounds appealing on paper, everyone seems to ignore the knock-on effects:

  • dentists will actually become more expensive as they'd no longer have any reason to keep their prices low

  • the wait times will be increased because more people will be lining up for their free whitening or to fix a lifetime of poor oral hygiene

  • the quality of care will inevitably decrease as more patients need to be served.

This is the exact same thing we see in hospitals. Nobody goes to the dentist for a mild toothache or because their child is teething. But people willfully clog up the ER thinking they're going to die because of a bad pimple because they know it doesn't cost them anything.

So in the end, the service costs more AND that cost is incurred more often as more people use the service.

Who pays for all that? It comes straight out of your taxes. So you're left paying MORE for an inferior service. It's not just poor economic reasoning, it's a sin of Ozbargain.

Health & Beauty Dental Medicare

Comments

  • mskeggs on 28/03/2022 - 19:09
    +86

    Nice to see a change of subject.
    Consistent accuracy of opinions though.

    • Drakesy on 28/03/2022 - 19:22
      +35

      It's like @SlavOz wants to put a target on their head and ask everyone to take potshots at them.

      • DashCam AKA Rolts on 28/03/2022 - 21:31
        +14

        @SlavOz has gleefully put a target on their head and ask everyone to take potshots at them. FTFY

      • iDroid on 29/03/2022 - 19:51
        +4

        I read the post, looked over at @SlavOz, put my hand over my forehead, thumb beside my left eye and lowered my elbow to my desk. There it sits …. possibly for eternity.

    • HumbleCat on 28/03/2022 - 23:14
      +166

      Can be replaced with

      While the prospect of having perfect health for "free" sounds appealing on paper, everyone seems to ignore the knock-on effects

      doctors will actually become more expensive as they'd no longer have any reason to keep their prices low

      the wait times will be increased because more people will be lining up for their free health checks or to fix a lifetime of poor health choices

      the quality of care will inevitably decrease as more patients need to be served.

      That's how dumb this argument is

      'So in the end, the service costs more AND that cost is incurred more often as more people use the service.

      Who pays for all that? It comes straight out of your taxes. So you're left paying MORE for an inferior service. It's not just poor economic reasoning, it's a sin of Ozbargain.'

      Having Universal Healthcare means you pay less not more. You don't need to cover teeth whitening, but surely can cover root canals and wisdom teeth removals. Teeth problems can be quite fatal

      I feel like OP missed a few classes in school when stuff like this was being taught.

      This is why we need better teachers and schools.

      • surg3on on 29/03/2022 - 09:12
        +49

        Oh my god. This perfectly explains why we need to increase public school funding!

        • Subada on 31/03/2022 - 16:45

          Exactly why the LNP is trying to strangle our public education system.

      • jorf on 29/03/2022 - 09:17
        +23

        I feel like OP missed a few classes in school when stuff like this was being taught.

        I feel like he's missing a few other things too.

        • Diji on 29/03/2022 - 13:03
          +14

          A conscience?

      • Clear on 29/03/2022 - 10:44
        +5

        I feel like OP missed a few classes in school when stuff like this was being taught.

        Rather it's not being taught. Like how I was threatened with detention when I kept saying there are 3 territories.

      • Pufff on 29/03/2022 - 12:56
        +3

        Unfortunately opinions are like aholes. Everyone has on. The internet means even people like this can share theirs to the detriment of humanity.

      • Scrooge McDuck on 29/03/2022 - 13:54
        +2

        Having Universal Healthcare means you pay less not more.

        He's referring to the increase in government spending and flow on to taxpayers. Not upfront patient costs.

        • Quantumcat on 29/03/2022 - 13:58
          +4

          It still costs the government less due to their bulk negotiation/buying power

          • Scrooge McDuck on 29/03/2022 - 14:13

            @Quantumcat: If that's the point someone wants to make it should be reasoned not just asserted.

            You've presented one effect on cost but there may be others like increased volume, decreased competitive forces, etc. I don't expect all commenters to provide academic references but at least some reasoning should be the basic standard.

          • Trance N Dance on 29/03/2022 - 14:48

            @Quantumcat: Dental care is expensive not only because of the consumables but significantly the equipment, labour costs, maintenance. Consumables make up a smaller portion than you may think and even then the bulk negotiating power isn't that high as margins aren't that big.

            • BinaryPirate on 30/03/2022 - 10:47
              +1

              @Trance N Dance: The margins are pretty healthy for some things. The market rate for a crown at the time I got mine was $1,500 plus labour.
              My crowns were made in Switzerland for ~$1,200 but could've been made in SE Asia for ~$250. As far as I know, no dentists are charging ~$300 plus labour to do a crown, except in SE Asia for those in a position to go there to have work done.
              fwiw, when he retired my dentist's client list, equipment & lease was sold for a little over $1million. For that price the business would need to be very profitable.

              Unlike GPs, for whom the cash cow was put down many moons ago, there aren't many dentists struggling to get by.
              The govt could absolutely use its bulk buying power to drive down the cost of not only consumables but also the chairs & other professional equipment.

              No one begrudges highly & expensively trained professionals making a better than decent profit for their labours. However, the govt pushing down the cost of doing business by making dental covered by Medicare could make it more affordable & still allow dentists to make their squillions while limiting the economic losses associated with unhealthy teeth, such as time off work & the like.

              • SlavOz on 31/03/2022 - 09:20
                -1

                @BinaryPirate:

                Unlike GPs, for whom the cash cow was put down many moons ago

                And also unlike GPs, when I go to the dentist there are no massive lines out the door manned by a single receptionist while patients wait to see a single uninterested doctor who has to Google your symptoms to know WTF you're talking about.

                You're making a very poor argument for free dental care if you want it to be more like GPs. The less things in this world that are like GPs, the better. The GP system in Australia is a complete joke and actually works far better in less developed countries.

                • Subada on 31/03/2022 - 16:49
                  +1

                  @SlavOz: So you'd rather our GP system work like America where poor and lower middle class people simply don't do check-ups because they're too expensive?

                  Then they inevitably go to the ER for conditions that could've been prevented entirely by a basic check-up? Costing the taxpayer thousands of dollars for emergency treatment that could've been avoided?

                  You conservatives are meant to be the ones with "common sense" right? How about an ounce of treatment is worth a pound of cure? That old timey enough for you? Basic micro-economics, you incentivise pro-social behavior (getting check-ups) by reducing cost. Basic shit man. Same applies to dental check ups. Catch gum disease or decay earlier and you don't need to fund expensive treatment.

                  • SlavOz on 31/03/2022 - 18:53
                    -4

                    @Subada:

                    Then they inevitably go to the ER for conditions that could've been prevented entirely by a basic check-up? Costing the taxpayer thousands of dollars for emergency treatment that could've been avoided?

                    This is a stretch and I reckon you know it. There is no evidence that untreated dental problems are causing a disproportionate burden onto our healthcare system.

                    Most dental visits are for fillings, infections, and cleans. These cost as little as $120. Stop pretending you need a millionaire to see the dentist.

                    Root canals, crowns, or even fillings are not essential as there is a cheaper option avaliable. You can always get any problematic teeth extracted for a very modest cost. This would solve the issue you're concerned about entirely. In such a case, I'd be more than happy for extractions to he Medicare funded. This ensures people don't get serious problems but at the same time it creates an incentive for people to take care of their teeth. If you ruin them, why should the taxpayer fund a brand new pair? You either cough up the money to fix your problems or you can get your teeth pulled for free and walk around with the consequences.

                • BinaryPirate on 02/04/2022 - 12:47
                  +1

                  @SlavOz: Congratulations on misreading all three paragraphs. The point was simply that the govt could drive down the costs for dentists & consumers alike.

                  However, since you brought it up, yes; having dentists bulk bill like GPs would do wonders for preventative care, saving billions in lost productivity.

                  The problem you're describing - long lines at GP clinics staffed by poorly trained doctors - is the result of long term LNP policy-making by to satisfy the wants of conservative donors & voters - i.e few to zero public services so all the extra dollars can be transferred to the wealthy.

                  In fact, most problems with most services can be traced directly back to the bullshit 'debt & deficit' shrieking & whining of right wingnuts over the past decade… conveniently forgotten just in time for a pre-election vote-buying cash explosion.

                  Don't want long lines & incompetent doctors? Don't vote for the LNP & other right wingnuts.

                  • SlavOz on 02/04/2022 - 16:35

                    @BinaryPirate: lol I don't vote for the LNP nor are they anything remotely close to a policy-based right wing party. You seriously need to lay off the media kool-aid.

                    "Labor good, LNP evil White Christians teh bad!!"

                    You sound like those people who blame Dan's COVID failures in Melbourne on "ten LNP's fault!" Way to take some responsibility.

                    • SBOB on 02/04/2022 - 17:25

                      @SlavOz:

                      I don't vote for the LNP

                      We know you're more like a United Australia voter base..

      • Charmoffensive on 30/03/2022 - 00:54
        +1

        This is why we need better teachers and schools.

        You can lead an alt right horse to water….

        • Subada on 31/03/2022 - 16:52

          They're more like donkeys although the US democrats claimed that animal for some reason.

          • BinaryPirate on 02/04/2022 - 12:57
            +1

            @Subada: It wasn't so much the Democrats claimed the donkey & Republicans the elephant so much as cartoonists assigned the animals via portrayals & the parties eventually accepted the respective motifs.

            What makes it fascinating - and where CNN clearly needs to brush up on their history lessons - is originally liberals were assigned the elephant (a weak, panicky creature constantly lumbering off in the wrong direction, its size more of a liability than an asset) while conservatives were given the ass (recalcitrant, stubborn, dismissive of authority, etc…).

            • SlavOz on 02/04/2022 - 16:39
              -3

              @BinaryPirate: If any of this was accurate we'd assign the Left as a snake (sneaky, poisonous, and forcing their way into places they shouldn't be)

              • BinaryPirate on 07/04/2022 - 20:29

                @SlavOz: Whoever would have guessed your grasp of history would be as far above par as your grasp of simple economics…. y'know, aside from literally everybody?

      • frewer on 31/03/2022 - 20:10

        This is why we need better teachers and schools.

        I dont think that how it works in AU … I have a mate who is a teacher, he bound by the school policy which is dictated by the states, so he can only taught what the state want him to do. Anyway, that is another topic in itself …

      • CommuterPolluter on 01/04/2022 - 08:18

        I think you’ve just explained why we don’t need Medicare.

      • Tames71 on 02/04/2022 - 00:06

        Seems like he just wants attention.

  • DemocracyManifest on 28/03/2022 - 19:12
    +225

    That’s crap, preventative dental work should be covered the same as going to a doctor. Cosmetic treatments like whitening should not be. People who are unable to get teeth saved or removed when they need to because of their finances health can suffer severely and they can end up hospitalised. I had my wisdom teeth removed in the public system in NSW, same as my partner. I got some holes filled recently in a private clinic and the cost was mind boggling, lucky I had some money to cover it. But I don’t go until there’s a issue, which is not a good thing. Public dental only covers emergency treatments and you have to give a pain rating, I think my partner waited a year but I got in pretty quickly because it wasn’t a complex case. Private insurance is going to the dogs because young people can’t afford it, even people in their 40s-50s are ditching it. The ‘lifetime of poor hygiene’ is still dealt with by the taxpayer in state public health units, we don’t throw people into the garbage bin if they seek help and can’t afford it but they will often just end up with dentures

    • Kangal on 28/03/2022 - 20:10
      +48

      Agreed.
      Regular check-ups should be free and covered under Medicare. This would greatly encourage Aussies to get it done, and prevention is much better than the cure.

      The downside is that, this takes away 80% of a dentists clients. They're gonna struggle (small violin). And then the amount of patients with cracked up teeth are going to be reduced. Again less major works, less money, more violins.

      It's baffling to see that Australia rates poorly when it comes to Dentist Specialty compared to other nations, yet we are one of the highest charging out there. If the above proposed is done, it will mean we would need to train more dentists, and that we would have to pay them at a more competitive rate.

        • holdenmg on 28/03/2022 - 21:56
          +37

          The idea that people's teeth problems are limited to only those circumstances you elect to advance demonstrates how narrow your "argument" is.

          What about those with Sleep Apnoea or those in need of Maxillofacial surgery?

          They need dentists too.

          • Almost Banned on 28/03/2022 - 23:34
            +9

            @holdenmg: Or just are unlucky enough to need wisdom teeth removed…

          • daleyboy79 on 30/03/2022 - 09:20
            +8

            @holdenmg: Lisa needs braces ….. DENTAL PLAN
            Lisa needs braces ….. DENTAL PLAN

        • Zondor on 29/03/2022 - 10:50
          +1

          The gov tells people to eat healthy all the time

        • Ughhh on 29/03/2022 - 13:43
          +9

          If you watched other things other than right wing conspiracy crap, you would have noticed that healthy eating awareness has been promoted for decades.

          It's like you almost realised there's a world outside of your little cave.

        • crentist on 30/03/2022 - 10:55

          Healthy food is for lefties I ain't eating a vegetable

        • Glorion on 30/03/2022 - 13:27
          +1

          I'm a fat shit with perfect teeth in my 30s :) lucky me I guess <3

      • Quantumcat on 28/03/2022 - 22:12
        +10

        The downside is that, this takes away 80% of a dentists clients

        Wouldn't they have more clients since low to average income people can afford to get checkups done more regularly?

      • IM-Cheap on 29/03/2022 - 10:29
        +5

        Agree, preventative dental can prevent so many more expensive health issues down the road and not just those relate. Yes you can brush - but brushing doesn't eliminate long term build up.

        Simple coverage of regular cleaning (which can be done by a hygenist) and the removal of wisdom teeth (which can be done on local anaesthetic most of the time)

    • poboy on 28/03/2022 - 20:12
      +28

      Preventative dental will save Australia significant sums in the next 10/20 years. Filling with a basic restoration now will save an extraction and poor related health afterwards.

      We can't afford not to deploy preventative dental.

  • urahara on 28/03/2022 - 19:13
    +19

    Haven't you learnt lessons from Covid already that why health is way over tax $$.Why not create public dental hospitals separately for everybody ?
    Rather than spending tax money on expensive shit for politicians , the primary focus should be healthcare and education. Australia is still 12th in world happiness category

  • trustnoone on 28/03/2022 - 19:14
    +31

    This is the exact same thing we see in hospitals.

    So you're left paying MORE for an inferior service. It's not just poor economic reasoning

    So you're saying that we shouldn't have medicare either for healthcare? And have our healthcare run the same as it does in the US? And so the US would be the correct model and that the people in the US (I use them as they do it this way) would pay less for healthcare as they're taxed less?

      • Drakesy on 28/03/2022 - 19:21
        +36

        Do you have proof that the quality and standard of care in America is the best in the world?

        If anything their healthcare actually rates poorly in terms of access and value here

        We pay ~2% of our wage to medicare each year or $1,500-$2,000. American insurance policies cost the employer $10,000 a year and you STILL get out of pocket expenses. That's $10,000 that you could pay staff, but Americans and you don't see it like that. Having a baby if uninsured there can cost up to $30,000, here you can just walk out of the hospital.

        As for dental work i'm on the fence, yes it can greatly improve life, however it leaves it open to being abused by people, i guess just like the health system.
        Maybe if we had public dental practices where the taxpayer wasn't getting fleeced by private companies it might be a good idea, but for now i'm on the fence.

        was going to take the bait then realised the username…

        • down-under on 29/03/2022 - 03:33
          +1

          Yeah, last time I checked the employer was paying US$17000+/year for me (family of 4)

      • SBOB on 28/03/2022 - 19:21
        +14

        I'm just pointing out the inevitable downsides.

        'hypothetical' downsides, while ignoring any benefits

        the quality and standard of care is among the best in the world for those who have insurance or can afford it

        shouldnt be the basis of an amazing health care system…. unless you happen to be the CEO of a health care fund

          • SBOB on 28/03/2022 - 19:31
            +35

            @SlavOz:

            say something completely stupid to justify your opinion?

            Are you giving out free irony lessons today?

          • Drakesy on 28/03/2022 - 19:32
            +12

            @SlavOz:

            Come on bro, do you always have to say something completely stupid to justify your opinion?

            Faceplam.gif

      • bobbified on 28/03/2022 - 19:51
        +8

        I'm not suggesting anything regarding public health, I'm just pointing out the inevitable downsides.

        If we went back to the early 80's when Medicare was introduced, you'd be saying that introducing 'free' medical cover would be a bad idea too.

      • Ughhh on 29/03/2022 - 18:34
        +1

        Just a year ago, you thought the aussie healthcare system was "pretty good". Confused? Can't live without something to complain about?

        • SlavOz on 29/03/2022 - 18:41
          -1

          It's almost like there's this thing called context.

          Crazy, I know.

          • Ughhh on 29/03/2022 - 18:43

            @SlavOz: Only when it suits you. 😲

      • Rybo5000 on 29/03/2022 - 20:32

        Go back where you belong seppo

  • jackary on 28/03/2022 - 19:15
    +112

    Top quality post SlavOz. As usual, I disagree with you on every point.

    • SBOB on 28/03/2022 - 19:24
      +4

      their consistency should be commended :)

      • smartazz104 on 30/03/2022 - 10:57

        It’s a runny consistency…

    • poboy on 28/03/2022 - 20:14
      +2

      It's like pondering on an issue and then learning the stance of the Liberal party. It really helps articulate a position.

      • Kangal on 28/03/2022 - 20:22
        +19

        He's actually fulfilling a much needed service. He is mostly open/honest, and brings interesting viewpoints to light. And even if they're wrong, it is great that they're shone in the light so they can be discussed, rebuked, and everyone learns from it. Basically, the opposite of an echo-chamber.

        • CrowReally on 29/03/2022 - 08:59

          "He's actually fulfilling a much needed service. He is mostly open/honest, and brings interesting viewpoints to light"

          Well, no/no and no, in that order.

        • holdenmg on 29/03/2022 - 09:11
          +1

          I thought the opposite of an echo chamber was a vacuum…

    • Deals For Days on 28/03/2022 - 23:13
      +9

      Honestly most unpleasant person on the platform. Haven't seen a single contribution from them that wasn't some outlandish political view or just plain being an (profanity).

  • [Deactivated] on 28/03/2022 - 19:17
    +27

    work such as fillings, root canals, extractions should be covered by medicare, but cosmetic work should not. as far as i'm aware, in the UK you can get dentures covered by the NHS, but not implants, which i think is fair.

    if dentists cannot be trusted to keep their prices reasonable, then there should be some sort of regulations surrounding their prices to prevent gouging.

    why should poor dental habits not be covered but poor lifestyle habits like obesity should be?

    even for things like skin cancer, how do you know it's not a result of poor choices, like not using sunscreen and / or hats? brain damage / paralysation resulting from an idiotic stunt?

    i think we should either cover all necessary (not cosmetic) work, or cover none of it.

      • [Deactivated] on 28/03/2022 - 19:27
        +11

        the vaccine problem happened because there are only a few suppliers, we have a lot of dentists and i'm sure we have some waiting overseas who would love their visas to be fast tracked if we needed any more.

          • [Deactivated] on 28/03/2022 - 19:37

            @SlavOz: i hadn't considered that… perhaps not a good idea, though i think some of my dental is already covered by medicare as it is, but none of it was cosmetic work.

          • SBOB on 28/03/2022 - 19:39
            +17

            @SlavOz:

            We have lots of dentists because it's a free market. Once you bring in Medicare funding, the bureaucracy will drive a lot of them out, usually to the point where only a few wealthy suppliers can compete.
            A small family practice is unlikely to be able to meet the burdens imposed on them by over regulation.

            why has the same not happened for GP's then?

              • Zephyrus on 29/03/2022 - 08:16
                +6

                @SlavOz: So your logic is it should cost money or I might have to talk to a dentist who wasn't born here?

              • surg3on on 29/03/2022 - 09:13
                +10

                @SlavOz: racist too. I should have known.

                • Diji on 29/03/2022 - 13:07
                  +3

                  @surg3on: Absolutely hilarious given the username, too.

                  • surg3on on 31/03/2022 - 09:14
                    +2

                    @Diji: whats annoying is i have to use all 5 of my downvotes on the guy

              • jrowls on 29/03/2022 - 21:18

                @SlavOz: do ya reckon the fact that med school is extremely expensive and unattainable for most Aussies is a factor there?

                • Trance N Dance on 29/03/2022 - 22:03

                  @jrowls: Med school isn't unattainable for most Aussies because of the costs.

              • t-money on 31/03/2022 - 13:26

                @SlavOz: why is that important to note, it's not their job.

      • HumbleCat on 28/03/2022 - 23:27
        +1

        The NHS in the UK negotiates prices with the suppliers. The suppliers give them a much lower price since they know they are ordering in bulk.

        Medicare can negotiate easily with dental supply companies for a competitive rate considering it would cover the whole of Australia.

        A single dentist sitting in his office in Redfern wont.

        • Trance N Dance on 29/03/2022 - 13:38

          That would only work if the clinic is government run/operated. And even then for dental supplies the government discount isn't that much, 5 maybe 10 (if lucky) percent more than what a private clinic can organise on a bulk order.

      • Tech5 on 28/03/2022 - 23:51
        +1

        There is- supply and demand.

        Patients pay as much as they value the service.

        This is why you have patients flying to SEA to have their work done (then get it fixed in Australia for 10x the cost once it goes belly up), or go to the discounted $99 clinics. Each to their own

    • SBOB on 28/03/2022 - 19:20
      +1

      but poor lifestyle habits like obesity should be?

      don't get him started ;)

    • [Deactivated] on 28/03/2022 - 23:50

      work such as fillings, root canals, extractions should be covered by medicare, but cosmetic work should not.

      This single sentence is all you need to read and then stop reading anything OP posts. End of thread.

    • R4 on 29/03/2022 - 12:41

      The NHS is also, largely, a mess. I've used it in the past and generally had good treatment, but speaking to friends in the UK recently and they are telling me it's falling apart. My wife's friend has to book three weeks in advance to see a GP.

      The basic problem with the NHS is that the everything free, for everyone, forever model is unaffordable and unsustainable. They knew this in 1945 when they were planning it and it's come to pass. Australia's hybrid state/private model is better and far more sustainable.

  • jv on 28/03/2022 - 19:18
    +33

    None of those points happened when GP's came under Medicare

      • SF3 on 28/03/2022 - 19:55
        +33

        Then go find a better GP practice.

        You are generalizing from a sample size of 1.

        • jv on 28/03/2022 - 20:03
          +16

          You are generalizing from a sample size of 1.

          You sound surprised SlavOz would do that…

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