Just read the news that staff would start wearing Bodycams in retail stores. Yes totally against abusive customers but regular customer shouldn't be subject to this crap.
Would staff be happy if they are being filmed by customer at all times? I guess No.
https://www.news.com.au/technology/gadgets/cameras/target-wo…
Aren't bodycams more expensive compared to CCTV. Why use bodycams? Recording work and tracking employees? Now it makes sense that they would frame it in the way that employees should want it.
Service workers, do you want this?
Article states they'll only turn them on if they're feeling threatened. Body cam will give a much better picture and audio of a confrontation with someone than CCTV. Seems like a good idea if the problem is so bad as to justify it.
"when the customer retaliates" Mate I think you're the reason they need to wear bodycams…
I have never seen a situation where this is truly the case.
I've seen examples where customers thought it was, but it absolutely was not.
@filmer: Really? I have seen heaps of cases where staff were totally crap to people. Happens all the time. Happened to me just the other day. Yes most people are good most of the time, but some people are total shit bags. How many times has someone not honoured a deal for someone after they have ordered and drove half an hour to pick something up, even when you have called ahead and spoken to someone who's put something aside but then that person isn't there when you get there and some other clown decides nah you shouldn't have it. This happens constantly. Yeah maybe it's not physical violence but I would love to be able to pull a video of the idiocy you see from some people. Maybe I should be wearing a body cam? I could strap my Viofo to my chest!
One of my recentish ones wasat Punchbowl Officeworks, being told that I deliberately broke my Plantronics Backbeat 810 Pro's headband (which everyone here knows by now that they are made of hard cheese). Fancy someone telling you that you were deliberate about something that you clearly wouldn't do to your own stuff, like they are the thought police, after only a few months of ownership and saying they wouldn't honour your warranty when it's really for the manufacturer to assess anyway
@Jackson: What's a male Karen called? A Jackson? Because you're nailing it.
You think someone finishing their shift, and then the next worker finding an item in the back that another customer want makes them a 'total shit bag'. How entitled can you get?
@filmer: Yeah, another worker finding something in the back with a name and phone number on it that gives it to someone else, without calling the number first = shitbag
And yes, someone telling someone they deliberate broke their stuff even though they have no evidence for that shitbag in the wrong job to boot.
Businesses work because people do a good job, and people as above are clearly lazy passengers who just cause more problems for we people
@Jackson: You sound like someone who would sit on their headphones and claim that it wasn't their fault they broke.
But why retaliate to a service worker? Like, what's the point. Just walk away and get it somewhere else. There's no need to accept rudeness, but also no need to create a confrontation. Just a simple "ok if you're going to be a dick, don't worry about it" and leaving will always suffice.
@Sxio: Anyone on a deal site who's had to wrangle a bargain knows that you can't always just "gey it somewhere else". See my above comment
I wonder about the logistics of this actually.
They'll "only turn then on when threatened" and also they'll "let the public know when the recording is being turned on" (from the article). Now my thinking is that if you're in an escalating situation with an unpredictable customer, as a service worker are you going to remember to do both of those things in the heat of the moment? They're not like cops that get hours and hours of training in conflict resolution and suppressing one's adrenaline response; quite the contrary, a lot of these service workers are kids. Are the Target kiddies going to remember to turn on their little bodycams when a situation goes from 0-100 suddenly? Are they going to remember to announce that the recording has started (and what are the legal implications of that, if any? What happens if they forget, or the unruly customer attacks them before they make that announcement? Or is the announcement just a courtesy? If so, then why? Because right before a confrontation seems like a really silly time for a courtesy…)
I'm all for safety of service workers, but a lot of this doesn't really sound practical.
I think you got some good questions there. But the bottom line is that these things being put into company's policy to avoid liability in case of a court case. The company couldnt give 2c being a kid got hit or a single customer gone nut. Oh and it's perfect excuse to put body cam in these low-paid employees. Im sure there will be a phrase saying " The management reserve all the right to the operation of these body cam", means in the future they can put an AI into it to assist with the situation. Meh I could be wrong about AI overlord, but who knows …
The CCTV generally won't include audio. Th ebodycams being up close and personal can. Showing verbal abuse as well as physical.
I do wonder whether activating the cam may lead to further abuse, though. In my uni retail job the customers I saw abusing coworkers would have become more inflamed by this kind of thing. These people genuinely believe themselves to be in the right and that their behaviour is justified and I don't believe that a cam will cause them to feel shame or fear of consequence. It's bizarre.
That's the point of bodycams! Is to capture abusive people. What's the point of bodycam if there's nothing to capture.
@skillet: I know, but these people escalate so quickly. I'm just afraid that a confrontation that is verbal may lead to a physical assault or the like.
I'd also argue that the most common and damaging abuse wouldn't even look that bad on body cam. People can be condescending, patronizing and casually racist. I was never a victim of this stuff but a lot of my international coworkers were.
I worked in an area with high SES and some of the people were horrible, I can only imagine what it's like in some of the rougher neighborhoods.
I wonder what the retail companies will do with the footage, anyway. This has always been a problem, yet during my relatively brief stint working a retail job, support was never offered and the problem was never addressed. I can't help but feel that this is just an attempt to appeal to the public for brownie points as opposed to protecting staff.
Body cam = Audio + no worries about blind spots.
CCTV = No audio + blind spots + usually trash res at range
I enjoy to making sexy-time toilet movie for boss lady.
Exactly, what about when an employee goes to the toilet? Invasion of privacy much?
germs………….. germs on device…………. yuck. I just had one older lady spread covid threw the work place………….
There is no expectation of privacy on private property unless it's in the restroom, change room, baby room, toilets, etc.
These days that seems to be pretty much only on your own private property…..Not saying it should be that way
Would be great to record old ladies who makes own rules for gift cards 🤣
Karen-kams ;)
That sounds like a fan website that costs $14.99 a minute to view.
lol
There was a thread on whirlpool (I tried locating it just now to link here but search failed) covering retail customer horror stories and some of the posts were so well written that you could almost visualise Karen/Kevin at their R(etail)-rated worst
@silverrat23: That's it! Thanks @silverrat23
Oooooohhhhh …..+ bonus Kars & Kevs reddit thread ….nice!
I’m not surprised. I worked at a national liquor chain and we should have probably been wearing them during covid. Understaffing is the bigger issue though. People are more likely to be abusive and steal stuff etc when there’s only 1 staff member on
Yup, they need to deal with the staffing that is part of the problem in the first place. More support, better conditions. Not a body cam. Especially alcohol retail with the killing they've been making as an "essential" retailer.
They got away with so much shit in that time
And won't this make it even worse? People who are paranoid will get all abusive and accuse the staff of spying blah blah don't-record-me-blah-blah
Well that’s what I’m saying. Having 1 20 year old on by themselves at 8pm-10pm, the company has decided evidently in their loss assessment, wages will cost more than theft per week in those time periods, so it’s open season; hell where I was, really, we didn’t even have to call the police for theft and they also didn’t give a shit most of the time unless it was card theft/fraud
Exactly.
1. Can you get thru to the cops
2. Is the perpetrator still on site
3. Fill out reports for a business that may or may bother
4. Will the cops want the footage anyway
5. Nothing gets done through our legal system, people keep stealing and acting in threatening ways and staff keep having to feel unsafe or useless.
6. Staff make comical names for the theives and abusers to make themselves feel a bit better about the lack of control they have in the situation.
Retailers were mostly too scared to push people to wearing masks instore, so why would they do anything with bodycam footage?
@DemocracyManifest: Yes, ignore you ethics and values screaming at you how wrong it all is. Or ignore them coming in at your closing time and fing you up. Or just ignore them making you or others around you feel unsafe and threatened. P.s i don't work in this role, but I used to and I know others that do. Telling someone to ignore bad shit in life, doesn't fix a thing. Not having a go btw, just frustrated at the lack of action. But if i stuff up on the road, watch those fines and demerits go up!
I think doctors and all public health staff should have to wear body cams. And NDIS carers. That woman who played games on her phone every day while her client adhered to her wicker chair and died, she never would have done that if there was a running cam of everything she was doing each shift. It would end public health scandals if no doctor could be told to make something "go away" without that conversation being recorded. People in general just can't be trusted imo. The public can't be trusted to treat retail workers right for sure. Everyone thinks they can get away with anything if no one else is looking.
Patients in health care facilities and surgeries are protected by privacy law.
We could come up with a system where only the patient or authorised auditor can view the recordings. One day we'll have such a system that's foolproof and we'll use it because once it's possible you may as well do it. And besides one day an AI will want to see everything that happens to make sure it's all happening right. If an AI were watching every single thing a doctor did, that alone would probably stop them from knowingly making and covering up mistakes or committing abuses.
Recording requires consent.
No consent, No recording.
@rektrading: The patient could choose to consent though, filming and photography already happens in theatre at times for various reasons. If it’s clinical photography no specific consent is needed and it’s treated as per any other medical record. If it’s for another purpose the patient consent is sought first. If a person can’t consent and EPOA or authorised person can do on their behalf.
Everyone thinks they can get away with anything if no one else is looking.
This. I used to work retail and the things that people do (try) and say never fail to baffle me.
And NDIS carers
How would the NDIS companies rort taxpayers then? Doesn't seem fair to the people who have set up companies for the sole purpose of extracting as much money from the NDIS as possible.
That woman should've had better oversight from others to ensure she was working as she should. The lack of oversight is the issue to me. 1 stranger should never have been able to do that in the first place. Broke my heart, that story.
Human oversight is too expensive I guess. Like if there are half a million cops in the US then having someone follow each cop around to make sure they are doing the right thing could cost 50 billion dollars per year. Compared to just 250 million dollars to buy each one a body cam.
It's not too expensive, they're just choosing where to put the funds. People don't need to be watched all day, that's micromanagement but we need to be held accountable and have some oversight. Did you know there's a $60 million dollar victorian dining scheme currently?…
This is sounding like the next step to My Health Record. It's also madness.
lo man you want all your doctors visits recorded on body cam? Think a bit.
regular customer shouldn't be subject to this crap.
I mean, how is this different to CCTV? If the customers aint looking to do something dodgy and/or make a scene I don’t see a reason why they’d care.
People who scream about privacy while they shop in a private business seem to overestimate how interesting they are to the general public.
I mean, how is this different to CCTV?
The difference is the recording of the sound and conversation.
State law requires the parties to the conversation to give consent. There are also laws that prohibit the sharing of recording with people that are not a party to the conversation.
If there is a sign at the front entrance making it a condition of entry, than consent is given. Same as checking bags.
The sign advises people that there is CCTV.
The sign isn't for the consent for recording the conversation.
@cookie2: Consent isn't needed in all states. Simply stating that it will be recorded, and it being done for the protection of someone's lawful interests would be enough.
@DogGunn: Enough for what? They still need to actually do something with the footage. Just because you say something, doesn't make it a legally binding contract.
@cookie2: I have no idea what you're talking about. Do something with what?
Also there's no need for a legally binding contract.
Implied consent may be granted (as has been the case for being recorded on CCTV) simply by entering a shop.
@cookie2: As said previously, they still need to actually do something with the footage. Will they or will 99.9% of it, be ignored and left anyway?
Normal staff members should not be drafted into security detail.
Pay a security guard to walk around with the body cam and that's a bit more reasonable.
Tell the staff member that if they intend on filming you you reserve the right to also film them.
There's been more than one occasion when I wished that I could film a store staff member because of their arrogant attitude and rudeness and report them to the company HQ.
Is it against the law to record video in a Woolworths?
private property
There's been more than one occasion when I wished that I could film a store staff member because of their arrogant attitude and rudeness and report them to the company HQ.
There are occasions (plural) where you wished you could have filmed retail employees because of their 'attitude,' so you could show their manager? Gee, if only there was a neologism for this.
if you are standing on private property it is illegal to take pictures or film without permission. This includes shopping malls, industrial sites, farms and office blocks.
https://www.stacklaw.com.au/news/criminal-law/when-photos-br…
Except obviously the staff member has permission
You also need to copy and paste the part about ”implied consent”.
And your link is out of context. As a member of the public, I cannot enter a private space and take photos/videos, but as the owner of that private space, I can film just about anything I want there, providing I let people know before they enter that they will be filmed.
if you are standing on private property it is illegal to take pictures or film without permission.
It's not illegal though. You may still be kicked out, but it's not an illegal act.
The article you linked even has an updated version which clarifies this a bit.
"Would staff be happy if they are being filmed by customer at all times? I guess No."
Yet it happens often enough by 'karens'…. And not all shops have staff/Security to deal with that type of situation.
With how long this pandemic has been going, they must of deemed it prudent to finally act due to a persistent/unchanging problem….
Management has been discussing issuing them to us due to the mentally ill animal rights types and the trash people that abuse park rangers.
I’ve also heard of two councils that are contemplating issuing them due to the amount of bigots that abuse council workers and contractors for simply having a job with the council.
Having worked in hospitality for many years, and worked in Woolies during the 3 month lockdown, I see this as good. Most customers are ordinary nice/neutral people, but the 1% (and growing) are such complete f**kwits that I believe staff should be able to teach them a lesson with baseball bats.
I have lost count of how many people have stated they are going to kill me while holding a weapon while within a metre of me, simply because I have cut them off or told them to leave. Current record is 7 in one year. And the THOUSANDS of threats of physical harm for the same thing.
Even working in Woolies as an online picker for only a few months, I remember one time where some stupid woman rammed me with her trolley because "I was in her way". It failed spectacularly for her, her being ~70kg and me being ~130kg at the time, but still the gall of her.
Also I should add that one of the local drinking holes out my way has had to put bodycams on their cleaning staff, because they were getting bashed while cleaning the toilets and the like. Takes a big man to physically assault some 50kg female foreign cleaner.
Mate, count yourself lucky to have 7 in one year. A friend of mine works in dessert shop that is open until late night, he would have 3-5 incidents on his 5 shifts every week. The amount of fuc*wit that act like they are tough mostly to one ethnic, A few stories:
A lot more shit situations and 90% of the time it is from this one ethnic. I am glad they are ruling this so he can record them and cops can start doing their job properly instead of excusing camera didn't record the whole video. Retail people doesn't deserve to be treat like this, they work during covid and during the most hardest time in Australia where I wouldn't even wanted to be in their position due to chance of getting infected.
The 7 incidents in one year weren't physical alterations, mate those are WAYYYYY higher. The 7 incidents were people with weapons in their hands and telling me they are going to kill me, while within a metre of me. Now obviously most are all talk, couple got scared off when regulars came and backed me up, but that is still a bad scenario to be in.
Imagine being such a scummy f##kwit that you are willing to commit a felony because someone says it's time for you to leave private property.
A relative of mine used to work at a Baskin-Robbins years ago, and this one customer wanted some seasonal flavour that was gone. This a-hole said he was going to go home, get his shotgun, come back and blow my relatives head off. Relative managed to get his number plate, police were informed. Turns out he was a registered gun owner and did have shotguns. Did being the primary word.
I am speechless and feel sorry for you / your relatives. It's not worth at all to be treated like that. This country is going to be as bad as US really soon.
@Alexander420: Meh, doesn't really bother me, just another great day in hospitality. And this problem has always been around, unfortunately Australia has a massive alcohol problem, but instead of addressing it, we have turned it into our culture.
i know which ethnic group youre reffering to
because they were getting bashed while cleaning the toilets and the like
101 of propaganda … make it real big, huge, and they will believe without thinking …
All well and good for you to say that mate, but you don't know staff there. I had staff working with me that used to work there.
You make it out like it is a conspiracy, well mate, sometimes it's just black and white.
You make it out like it is a conspiracy
Not a conspiracy, just over-inflated reporting.
This is probably more about stopping staff from stealing than their safety, so I disagree with the idea of it.
Thats America, and believe it or not, a lot of retail theft involves staff.
Sure, they all looked like the staff.
For someone only interested in Twitter for crypto, you seem to quickly find Twitter links for some rather 'interesting' opinions unrelated to crypto.
I blame the #TWTR algo.
I 🙏 Ser Musk can turn it off or tweak it to not show 💩 in my feed.
Here is more staff stealing.
Watch to end.
https://twitter.com/pollysbirdcage/status/152121047735470489…
I'm confused. How do you know those thieves are staff? I didn't notice that from the videos in the tweets. (I mean, I noticed something else about all of the people stealing but we're not allowed to notice things these days.)
It's a growing trend in soft states including in Australia that staff get can steal without fear of prosecution.
They get a slap on the wrist and are back on the street within a few hours.
@rektrading: But again, how do you know those people are staff? They certainly aren't dressed like staff.
(…Or is "staff" a new dogwhistle that I haven't heard about yet?)
Would staff be happy if they are being filmed by customer at all times? I guess No.
Yet again, op fails to read their own link. The cameras aren't filming people at all times.
Oh I'm sure OP knows but continued to use a strawman line anyway
I dont care as long as I am not being forced by manager/area managers/CEO's/supervisors to this kinda dodgy sh*t.
Yeah, this is employee tracking smeared over with “iT’z FoR ThEiR oWn PoTeCtiOnZ”
This was bound to happen eventually, I think we all knew that. With cameras getting cheaper, higher quality and more portable, it makes a lot of sense to have employees wear them.
For businesses the size of Woolies I think the cost savings alone in liability insurance will more than pay for it, let alone the deterrent to theft and many other benefits
As always though, regardless of the real reason, marketting will pick the most emotive argument to go with. In this case, 'the safety of our employees'
Pffft. As if a camera will prevent a beatdown rather than just capture the action.
Eventually, everyone in society will wear them, all the time. Not having one will be like driving without insurance
Bad link. Edit: ok now