Can someone tell me if I screwed up somewhere?
My tenant was apparently using a portable gas cooker connected to a large cylinder and the whole thing blew up and caused a fire. The main stove is an electric stove and I would have not thought this would be something that I would need to worry about.
I have landlord insurance and strata has purchased insurance. Neither are willing to help with the bill… Was I supposed to buy some other type of building insurance?
That 50-80k comment wasnt on when I replied, OP giving bite size info. Would be better telling the whole story, and reason behind the rejection.
Could be a meth lab, both TS and ammi don't cover those incidents.
Insurance usually pay up if it's with the PDS.
90% of this thread Inc my comments based on speculation and bit of insurance bashing.
Quoted circa $400k to fully renovate a 2 bed 2 bath inner city Melbourne skyscraper apartment, or about $3.5k/sqm.
Costs inflated due to complete lack of workspace/parking/access/waste disposal in the major sky scrapers making everything more difficult than otherwise.
Because OP had landlord insurance which is different to building insurance
As far as I can see from looking at a couple of PDS they seem to include damage due to explosion and fire.
I cannot find anything referring to an exclusion for tenant stupidity, only for a deliberate malicious act etc
One site starts it's description with -
"Landlord insurance is a specialist form of home insurance that covers everything normal home insurance does – plus a range of extra protections for problems unique to landlords."
and another states -
"Home Insurance helps cover the costs of repairing or rebuilding your home if it’s damaged in an insured event, like fire, flood, or burglary. Landlord Insurance is similar, but also includes cover for landlord-specific things like loss of rent and malicious damage caused by tenants."
So rather than be a lesser insurance it appears to cover more than just home insurance.
I would suggest you elevate the claim with the insurance company via whatever their process is and then take it to the AFCA or whatever the relevant office is called.
As far as I can see from looking at a couple of PDS they seem to include damage due to explosion and fire.
It's hard to say until the OP lists who the insurance is with as they all have their own quirks but I agree that it sounds like something that should be covered.
Maybe as it is not covered as it is not a fixed feature, it is classed as an accidental claim that the OP didn't have?
Another way to look at it, is If I got a camping gas heater and put it the middle of my lounge floor to keep me warm but it then burned a hole in the floor, would you expect insurance to cover you for this? Most would say no I would think.
I would suggest you elevate the claim with the insurance company via whatever their process is and then take it to the AFCA or whatever the relevant office is called.
Agree but need to read the PDS in greater detail first.
@JimmyF: I would absolutely expect insurance to cover it- it’s an act of stupidity not maliciousness. Just like everyone expects to be covered when they do a u turn and get t boned because their eyes are painted on.
@HelpMeiCantSee: Its an act of stupidity alright, but try burning your own house down by your own actions and find out if insurance covers you ;)
@JimmyF: If it wasn’t deliberate, it bloody well should be! Otherwise every single cause could be put down to stupidity and denied.
Otherwise every single cause could be put down to stupidity and denied
Lots are denied because of stupidity…. Try cutting down a tree in your yard and dropping it on your house. You'll find your claim will be denied.
Possibly because the damage was toward the contents of the home, and the building structure itself was not damaged.
i.e. kitchen cabinetry, fridge or oven etc.
i.e. kitchen cabinetry, fridge or oven etc.
Everything that is fixed to the floor or wall is structural; so while fridge is contents (fittings), cabinets, carpet etc are fixtures and covered by home insurance
That is not correct.
Source: my building insurance, 6 weeks ago, said kitchen cabinets & flooring damaged due to a burst pipe are not considered structural and I need to claim via my contents insurance.
@cimrak: Yep, @cimark is correct on this. I have read this countless times in various contents PDS documents.
That is not correct.
ok, its correct at law but I guess if you sign a contract that changes the law then … you have agreed to that
Most of the time it doesnt matter as you have home and contents insurance, but obviously your contents insurance is generally lower as its based on what you think is contents and not things like kitchen cabinets and floors
Just looked up a few pds, 3 at random but they all say that anything permanently affixed is building
CBA - Building insurance covers
baths, toilets, showers, taps and sinks;
• stoves, ovens and dishwashers;
• heaters, air conditioners and fans;
• hot water services;
• built-in furniture;
• ceiling, wall, window or floor coverings including floating floorboards, linoleum and exterior blinds (but not carpets, internal curtains and internal blinds as these are considered contents items);
Suncorp - building covers
any permanently housed, connected or wired electrical appliances (e.g. a wired oven);
— any permanently fixed outdoor items, including solar panels, satellite dish, play equipment, clothes lines, animal housing and outdoor lights;
— gas appliances permanently plumbed to a gas supply;
— any permanently attached fixtures including wall, ceiling and floor coverings;
Contents are items which are not permanently attached to the home or insured address
AAMI
• floating wooden floors;
• services, both above and below ground that you own and you are responsible for;
• any permanently housed, connected or wired electrical appliances (e.g. a wired oven);
• any permanently fixed outdoor items, including solar panels,
satellite dishes, play equipment, clothes lines, animal housing and outdoor lights;
• gas appliances permanently plumbed to a gas supply;
• any permanently attached fixtures including wall, ceiling and floor coverings;
• lino installed, whether permanently attached or not;
Sounds like your insurer is trying to fob you off. Assuming that there was no negligence on the part of the tenant you should be covered if it was purely accidental. There's no clauses saying you can't use a gas cooker in a kitchen.
If it's a camping style gas cooker, my guess is that the manufacturer will have deemed it "for outdoor use only" or something similar.
Any indoor use would therefore be negligence, I think? Would love to hear from a solicitor on this
Any indoor use would therefore be negligence, I think?
But does the PDS exclude tenant negligence? Most that I have looked at don't specifically state that.
I thought landlord insurance is to cover tenant negligence. Like they run off without paying the rent or trashing the place. Blowing it up whether intentional or unintentional is damage.
Unless OP has a junk policy.
Strata's insurance is only for the building so without structural damage they won't do anything. Damage between 4 walls would be for the landlord to cover (if via insurance).
That is a fair point, maybe the tenant should be subject to an IQ test to see if they had the capability to deduce that using a gas stove indoors may be a hazardous experience.
Sounds like the tenant was a Cook (not a Chef).
Were the portable gas cooker connected to a large cylinder indicated when property inspections were conducted?
Ohhhh, exploding meth lab, that might explain the insurance issues…
Breaking bad oz release
-You call that a meth rock? THIS is a meth rock. Now say my name.
-Mr Duncan, this is a Maccas yo.
-Bloody oath it is!
Break Bad Oz theme
@nobro25: You think of Aussie Heisenberg and you think of minerals? No. Mr Duncan is the one with meth ROCKS!
Surely this would have been on the news…
It has been a few months since the incident. I don't even remember if it was on the news. It probably was, but I doubt they had the information about it on the day and likely the tenant kept quiet about it too…
I might need to hire a solicitor soon rather than continue writing letters to the insurance company.
It probably was
Why would it be on the news?
House fires often are, especially an "explosion"
good headline; more clicks; more ads; more money
@[Deactivated]: Though they seem too lazy to report on these nowadays, they'll report if someone posts a clip somewhere they can snatch (e.g. tiktok, reddit, twitter), repost it and add a clickbaity title.
What reasons did the insurance company give you to reject the claim? What sections in the PDS is the insurance company rejecting the claim under?
Read the insurance PDS from cover to cover to see what they exclude and if they made a mistake then make a formal complaint to the insurance company. If you do it via phone then make sure you are transferred to the complaints department and get a complaint number and ask them what the process is.
You can also make a complaint to the insurance council if you have read the PDS and the insurance company complaint goes no where. There are timelines that the insurance company has to meet for complaints. Read up on the insurance council on what these are so you know them.
Having a look at the Terri Sheer insurance I have, it 'looks' covered but the devil is in the detail.
https://www.terrischeer.com.au/landlord-insurance/
I would hope it comes under tenant damage or fire or explosion.
Then I would hope the insurance company goes after the tenant financially.
It appears one company previously tried to recoup costs but gave up all too easily.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-09/gio-suncorp-insurance…
But giving up they transfer the cost to all other premium payers. This is wrong.
Exert from a standard strata policy.
Insured Property
a. Building:
means building or buildings as defined in the Strata Legislation
applying where Your Building is situated, including:
i. outbuildings;
ii. fixtures and structural improvements, gates and fences;
iii. in-ground swimming pools and spas;
iv. marinas, wharves, jetties, docks, pontoons, swimming
platforms, or similar type facilities (whether fixed or floating)
which are used for non-commercial purposes and which do
not provide fuel distribution facilities, unless We are advised
and otherwise agree in writing;
v. satellite dishes, radio, television and other antennas
including their associated wiring, masts, footings,
foundations, moorings and towers;
vi. underground and overhead services;
vii Stratum Lot or Volumetric Lot;
that You own or have legal responsibility for at, in or adjacent
to Your Situation
b. Common Area Contents: means:
i. furniture, furnishings, household goods, light fittings,
internal blinds, curtains, fire extinguishers and the like;
ii. built-in or freestanding appliances such as dishwashers,
washing machines and dryers, other electrical items;
iii. carpets (whether fixed or unfixed), floor rugs;
iv. swimming pools or spas that are not in-ground;
v. swimming pool or spa covers and accessories;
vi. wheelchairs, garden equipment including lawn mowers, golf
carts, golf buggies or other similar type items but only if
such item is not required to be registered;
that You own or have legal responsibility for:
• at, in or adjacent to Your Situation, or
• temporarily removed elsewhere in Australia including transit
to and from Your Situation.
Building and Common Area Contents do not include:
• aircraft, caravans, trailers, Vehicles (other than garden appliances
not required to be registered), hovercraft and Watercraft including
their accessories or spare parts whether fitted or not;
• livestock, fish, birds or other animals;
• Lot Owners’ Contents and any other personal property of theirs;
• money, other than as covered under Special Benefit 15 – Money of
Policy 1 – Insured Property;
• plants, hedges, trees, shrubs, gravel, shale, stones, clay or soil
on paths or driveways or tennis courts, soil or bark or mulch
in gardens other than as covered under Special Benefit 13 –
Landscaping of Policy 1 – Insured Property; and
• temporary wall, floor and ceiling coverings within a Lot/Unit, and
mobile or fixed air-conditioning units servicing an individual Lot/
Unit (if Your Situation is in Queensland).
Where anything in this definition of ‘Insured Property’ is contrary to
the Strata Legislation applying where Your Building is situated the
requirements of that Act will apply.
Is this from OP's insurance companies PDS that is applicable for the insurance OP took out?
OP never took it out. Would have been decided by the AGM. As I said this is pretty standard the above since AFAIK there is only one major underwriter for strata.
What does strata mean in Australia?
Strata title is a model of property ownership in Australia that allows individuals to buy ownership in a larger property or building. As an owner of a 'lot' within a 'Strata Complex', you own your lot as well as a share in the 'common property
How does this wall of text directly relate to the problem that the OP is having?
That's the strata wording of Insured property. What they cover and what they don't.
What they don't the OP will have to use his own LL insurance.
How to make a claim through strata.
How to make a claim
.
You should advise them as soon as reasonably practicable of an incident
which could lead to a claim. Having the required documentation and
possibly photographs of the items will assist in having Your claim
assessed and settled. When You make a claim We require You to:
• provide details of the incident and when requested complete the
claim form We send You;
• subject to reasonable notice and at a reasonable time that suits
You and Us, You will allow Us or Our appointed representative
to inspect Your Insured Property and take possession of any
damaged item(s) if reasonable and required;
• take all reasonable steps to reduce the damage or loss and
prevent further loss or damage;
• inform the police as soon as reasonably practicable following
theft, vandalism, malicious damage or misappropriation of money
or property;
• where practical and reasonable not dispose of any damaged items
without first seeking Our approval; and
• not get repairs done, except for essential temporary repairs,
and where reasonable We seek Your cooperation in selecting the
repairer or supplier.
Exactly. This will cover the owners' corporation (OC) for the building and for any common areas damaged.
It won't cover the landlord for repair and fitout of their lot.
Huh I wonder if the tenant was trying to cook some sort of Asian cuisine. Like in a wok with all the fancy fires
A succulent Chinese meal to be precise.
Them not paying him is simply democracy manifest
Uncle Nigel would be proud
How can tenant stupidity not be covered by landlord insurance, isn’t that the whole point of this type of insurance?
Who is your insurance provider? I’d be curious to read their PDS.
This is some real breaking bad shit right here
I thought land Lord cover would cover this under accidental?
Maybe link the PDS and let's see?
Enter that portrait for the Archibald.
That deserves a OB trophy
Hmmm who is your landlord insurance with? As it sounds like this is something it should cover.
Ready the PDS carefully to verify.
I have landlord insurance
Landlord insurance is a wise investment for owners who lease their property. It generally provides protection for the main risks landlords face including:
Tenant damage – accidental or malicious caused by tenants, their pets or guests.
Building cover – if the property is damaged or destroyed as a result of an insured event such as theft, fire, flood, cyclone, earthquake or storm.
Contents cover for the landlord’s belongings.
Loss of rent – resulting from an event the insurer has agreed to cover.
Legal liability – in case someone is injured or their property is damaged.
Costs associated with taking legal action against a tenant.
https://www.rentcover.com.au/info-centre/landlord-insurance-…
Not many of them will cover loss of rent anymore after Covid
Maybe they should exclude pandemics but I guess they learnt the hard way.
A lot of house and contents policies are cheap because they exclude flood cover now.
Tenant damage – accidental or malicious caused by tenants, their pets or guests.
This
Costs associated with taking legal action against a tenant.
and this.
Doesn't sound like OP insurer is actually covering that much.
So was the tenant doing something illegal? Like cooking meth? Seems wierd your landlord insurance doesnt cover it as this is the sort of crap it is for.
Can you elaborate on what exactly the tenant was cooking with?
I wonder if this applies to tenants having gas barbeques - surely if that catches on fire insurance covers it.
However if the tenant has some obscene enormous gas bottle that is 1.5m high vs the tiny ones from bunnings then that would be another issue.
Insurance ombudsman would be my next contact
This before you have to pay for advice
These days landlords/PM can insist tenant takes out insurance - but how to check cover isn’t dropped ? Most tenants don’t even have contents insurance.
Can you? I have never seen this.
I guess the best you can do is ask to see a copy of the insurance certificate. At least then you have taken all reasonable steps.
Even if true (which it isn't), tenants only buy contents insurance not building insurance. Contents insurance wouldn't cover the building damage though.
Even if true (which it isn't)
I think it could be made a requirement through a special condition requiring the tenant to hold public liability insurance.
tenants only buy contents insurance not building insurance. Contents insurance wouldn't cover the building damage though.
Yes, but many (all?) of these policies include public liability insurance which would then likely cover the lot owner for the refit of the lot internals.
I know commercial lease requires building insurance. But that's it.
Not quite. The insurance premiums are supposed to be the cost of doing business.
Found the parasite
Jealousy alert!
Hahaha, my investment in a mining company goes down 20% because their pit got flooded. I don't come here to cry about it, it's the risk I took on when I invested. Why is this different? At least my investment helps the economy and creates jobs. Parasitic landlords feed off of people's need for housing and cry when their investment sees the smallest bit of drawback. Stay entitled.
Take this with a grain of salt, but in my last job, they were training some of us sales guys to sell outdoor kitchens. Not really my dept but we had to do the mandatory training for cross sales.
Anyway, assuming I heard right, I do remember there was something in the presentation about if gas stoves are used in areas with a roof over it, there needs to be some sort of special shut off valve in the cooker otherwise it can void your home insurance. To be honest, I didn't really care much about the topic, but it was something weird useless information I'm unlikely to ever use, so I guess it stuck.
That being said, I don't see why that would void landlords insurance. It could be them playing silly buggers and hope you'll bend over and take it.
You are correct. I researched and got an indoor gas stove for a relative to use in a unit. It shuts itself off if the flame goes out.
The landlord was okay with this cooker being used
Why would you have landlord insurance when you have strata insurance from body corp for an unit? They cover the same thing. Usually same.
Unless you mean landlord content insurance for things that may not be covered like carpets and furniture?
Could you tell us ozbargainers what insurance company this is so that we know they won't cover these situations?
This is actually true, Im not sure why you got negatives.
OP only needs a landlord content cover for carpet / courtin and rent default etc. Landload building insurance wouldnt cover stuff inside.
This is like a troll post, lack in info.
Negatives were probably because it's not actually true all the time. Not everything strata-related is a high-rise complex where every unit has common walls and owners don't take out building insurance.
It's also quite common to have strata cover free-standing units on a common plot of land. Or structures like a duplex/triplex where they share a common wall but the rest of the premises need to be insured by the owner.
Source: own a free-standing property on a strata-managed plot of land.
I think free-standing stratas are less common BUT OP did say unit and I only said strata for unit not any other types. Not sure of the negs and the cowards don't explain themselves either.
I guess really depends on what the body corp strata insurance covers. I know it covers loss of rent too.
Really want to know who this insurer is because that's what it is for
@Poor Ass: My free-standing unit is precisely that; a unit. There are 4 single-story dwellings, each owned by a different person, on a single block of strata-managed land. Council plans list us as Units 1-4, as do the mortgage and utility documents. I think it's just a definition issue here, no biggie.
But yes I agree that it depends on what the Strata insurance covers for OP.
Strata insurance for me covers "shared areas" (such as the security gate, driveway and paved areas between the buildings etc) and "common walls" (such as one unit having a brick wall that forms the side of a parking spot). It doesn't cover the buildings (only the common walls) and certainly doesn't cover lost rent (two of the properties are rentals). So we all need our own building insurance, and the owners of the rental properties also need Landlord insurance for their places.
@cimrak: it should cover a lot more at least surrounding glass and your roof… if it doesn't that would mean ya body corp went cheap.
Parents strata insurance includes common areas and for their rental stops at the external walls of the unit, basically everything internal to the unit including all fixtures, bathrooms, kitchen, internal walls etc are considered your own problem to insure. so no Strata insurance does not cover you and you need your own building insurance not just contents.
Man this freaked me out! I had my previous tenants ask for permission to do the same thing because the electric cooker was "costing too much to run". I literally told them they either gas themselves or would blow themselves up and they would void my insurance
They could obviously have just gone ahead and done it….
I had my previous tenants ask for permission to do the same thing because the electric cooker was "costing too much to run".
Not very good with the numbers these people. I guess they want to run a gas heater indoors too (don't because you can get carbon monoxide poisoning).
These are the same tenants who blew up my switchboard by plugging multiple heaters into a single powerboard
I think the way it is heading, you’ll need to get the property back into a liveable condition to collect rent again. Focus on tallying the work that has to be done and document the damage, I.e. photos and report form like you are an assessor. If you rely on the property manager to complete the work then you are going to paying up to 3x on the repairs. You should get the keys and start doing to demo work. Keep the insurance and the property management going. As someone said lawyer up.
it’s believed the occupant may have lit a cigarette near a gas stove possibly left on, triggering the explosion,” Fire and Rescue NSW said in a statement.
Doubt it.
This is exactly why i would never rent out my property, too many idiotic renters, who aren’t adult enough to live on their own with parental supervision.
So you'll never have an investment property?
So you'll never have an investment property?
Maybe just holding it empty for those massive capital gains?
sounds like it hey
maybe one of those holiday houses that gets used rarely lol
Same here, property investment for rental is a mugs game.
I did it for a while, never again. Everyone I know that rents out has a horror story. They are always going to the property to paint it or put in a new kitchen or repairing damage. The whole legal system is stacked against you and working for the tenant. Millennials don’t like saving, they want to rent a house AND own it. They will do what they like to it. I would not be surprised if one day they suddenly legislate rent control with lifetime tenancy.
Sure once every 10 years there is a property boom and you make capital gains but share investments are way easier and a better investment.
Agreed. Too many maintenance outgoings on property. Unless you buy brand new and reap those depreciation rewards, but the state of new home construction now leaves eben that dubious.
I don’t think the general newbie property investors realise a) how stupid people are on average, especially now that we import more people than are renewed naturally and b) how some people can’t even take care of themselves let alone a property that doesn’t even belong to them.
It is puzzling why you have asked a question without bothering to give all the necessary details.
Exactly what happened?
What insurance company is it? Lets see the policy.
The insurance company's reason for denial of your claim.
Naturally there are plenty of property investors interested
Interested too
Yeah, would be interested as well. I heard some landlord dodgy insurance providers out there. Curious! Thanks and all the best
Your tenant sounds like the poster on here who was cooking all of his meals on the free bbq in a park.
Your tenant sounds like the poster on here who was cooking all of his meals on the free bbq in a park.
That's the tenant that you actually want to rent your property - keeps all of your appliances nice and clean and unused.
Well, 50 to 80k repairs, for me that would be a gutted apartment, but rich city folk seem to consider that "not too bad". It's all relative I guess.
Probably a tad more that curtains and carpets though.