Made Redundant While on Annual Leave

ozbargainy on 14/12/2022 - 07:56
Last edited 14/12/2022 - 09:08

Stuck on the following position and need some sort of 2nd opinion from the OZB educated audience 😀

Submitted my annual leave form and got it approved by management in Oct. The leave was from late Nov to early Jan. I had accrued leave balance to satisfy that leave. Before leave I had a chat with HR where they stated they will seek redeployment as the work was nearing completion.

On mid Dec while outside Australia, got a call from HR confirming that they have no option of redeployment and have to terminate me immediately from mid Dec. They issued the notice on the same day.

What do you think of that?, is it fair?, just can’t get my head around being terminated while on leave.

Understand there’s no redeployment option but that is the company’s issue not mine. I believe it would be fair to terminate me when my leave ends not before. What do you think??

Contacted FWA but waiting for feedback too.

Edit: Thanks all for useful feedback. It’s a $hit move but doesn’t look like a case for unfair dismissal so I will have to live with it and move forward 🤘

Education & Work

Comments

  • Muzeeb on 14/12/2022 - 08:01
    +38

    You will still get paid out your entitlements.

      • brendanm on 14/12/2022 - 08:06
        +44

        Then what does it matter when it's done? Isn't it actually better to know sooner, as you can then look for another job?

          • Muzeeb on 14/12/2022 - 08:11
            +8

            @ozbargainy: Why?

          • SBOB on 14/12/2022 - 08:13
            +25

            @ozbargainy:

            I would have been paid extra 3 weeks or so

            But now terminated your unused leave would be paid out. I would think the end result would be the same whether you were currently on leave or not.

            Shame about the crap timing though

            • ozbargainy on 14/12/2022 - 08:14
              -6

              @SBOB: Couldn’t be worse really

              • Nugs on 14/12/2022 - 08:26
                +32

                @ozbargainy: Yes it could be, unemployment rate could be higher
                .

              • [Deactivated] on 16/12/2022 - 10:26

                @ozbargainy: become a tradie, its on high demand everywhere.

            • flagger on 14/12/2022 - 08:45
              +16

              @SBOB: Not quite the same. The company doesn't have to pay super when paying out entitlements. They employee also doesn't accumulate more annual leave as they would if they were taking annual leave (wouldn't be much difference in this case, but its still something).

            • drfuzzy on 14/12/2022 - 20:28
              +3

              @SBOB: You lose the superannuation component of the unpaid leave and any leave loading.

              That said OP needs to harden up.

            • F1Maniac on 14/12/2022 - 21:59

              @SBOB: most companies dont pay out super on leave balance. but when you are on leave they have to pay super

            • paullovesbargains on 19/12/2022 - 13:48

              @SBOB: Seems the only thing you lose by not waiting to get back is the extra leave accrual. Which is 3/52 of 4 weeks so just over a day of leave.

              But why would they wait for you to get back? If any of your peers got made redundant then they would be gone today. Not fair on them that they go now and you later.

              The key is you are going into a market that is still strong. Walk into a like for like job tomorrow and you pocket a redundancy cheque.

          • Quantumcat on 14/12/2022 - 08:43
            +15

            @ozbargainy: The only money they're saving is the annual leave you would be accruing while on annual leave, which would be around 1 day

            • Cheaplikethebird on 14/12/2022 - 09:13
              +11

              @Quantumcat: And wouldn't be worth losing the head start on the job search.

              I had the reverse happen to me years back, first day of leave got a call from manager telling me I had a meeting with recruiter on first day back. Had 2 weeks leave then went to the meeting to find out my contract had not been renewed. I was PISSED.

            • Donaldhump on 14/12/2022 - 10:27
              +2

              @Quantumcat: and superannuation

            • drfuzzy on 14/12/2022 - 20:28

              @Quantumcat: And the super they don't have to pay

      • mapax on 14/12/2022 - 08:09
        +3

        If you’re getting paid everything you’re owed it seems pretty fair.

      • Muzeeb on 14/12/2022 - 08:10
        +20

        Would it have been more fair if you were in the office?

        Management have made a decision. They have done the fair thing to inform you ASAP. Whether you're on a Greek island or in the office is irrelevant.

        • Chandler on 15/12/2022 - 10:38
          +1

          Likely, but not necessarily.

          If the employee was present, they could have advocated for themselves, and management may have found alternative arrangements or made a completely different decision.

      • pharkurnell on 14/12/2022 - 08:53
        +7

        Lesson 1 in life… fairness is fiction

        • Lunarboogie on 14/12/2022 - 09:05
          +3

          Username checks out

    • Donaldhump on 14/12/2022 - 10:27
      +1

      yeh but won't accrue leave on leave nor get superannuation.

  • boomramada on 14/12/2022 - 08:07
    +8

    I have seen this happened before, can make you redundant while on leave, but check with FWA. Just enjoy your holiday, come back in freah mind and apply for something better.

    • ozbargainy on 14/12/2022 - 08:10

      Thx, check with FWA made already. Trying to enjoy whatever left of leave as much as I can 👍🏼

      • GG57 on 14/12/2022 - 08:57
        +13

        Sounds like you are no longer on leave.

        • ozbargainy on 14/12/2022 - 09:01
          +1

          Yeah I mean the timing is $hit

          • 42 on 14/12/2022 - 18:28
            +3

            @ozbargainy: Look on the bright side. You get to enjoy an extended holiday. Less work is less money but also less stress.

            • OzzyOzbourne on 14/12/2022 - 23:11
              +1

              @42: Besides having to find another job to pay the bills and mortgage

              • 42 on 15/12/2022 - 13:27

                @OzzyOzbourne: OP has to do that regardless, so may as well focus on the positives

    • Franc-T on 15/12/2022 - 11:10

      Sounds like employer handled it properly they gave him advice they were seeking redeployment but no promises, timing does suck though.

  • El cheepo on 14/12/2022 - 08:10
    +22

    If there’s no work for you to do when you return what would you like them to do?

    It seems like (from your description) that even if you were there in person you probably would be in the same position of facing redundancy.

    It’s not nice, but that’s business.

    It sucks that it puts a downer on your holiday, but arguably is better then returning and getting made redundant the day you get back.

      • boomramada on 14/12/2022 - 08:21
        +20

        It doesnt matter when was the leave approved. Management probably decided while you on leave that they need to lay off some staff before the whole business go bust. It just timing was bit shitty, unfortunately.

      • pharkurnell on 14/12/2022 - 08:54
        +15

        If you were still here not on AL - the result would be the same wouldnt it? No work means no work.

      • MantistobogganMD on 14/12/2022 - 09:09
        +1

        redundancy is a different kettle of fish. it sucks what they've done and yes unfair …but from what you've told us, not illegal

        • El cheepo on 14/12/2022 - 10:10
          +7

          It would only be unfair if they selected the OP to make redundant purely because they were on AL.

          But that probably isn’t the case and even if it was, it would damn hard to prove.

      • peterpaoliello on 14/12/2022 - 22:03
        +2

        I cannot follow your logic here. There's no difference. You're still an employee while on leave and the organisation doesn't stop making decisions in your absence.

        Wouldn't you rather have it end sooner so you get the cash and can start looking for work, rather than burning through daily pays and not being productive looking for next job. It's actually a huge courtesy they've paid to you.

      • Serapis on 15/12/2022 - 17:00

        Not for that reason no, you can be dismissed when you're on annual leave. It could be unfair dismissal however if you don't believe the redundancy was genuine.

      • [Deactivated] on 16/12/2022 - 10:28

        they want you to go first on holiday and its easier to sack you when ur not around.

    • AustriaBargain on 15/12/2022 - 00:34

      I wouldn't mind sitting in an empty office all day and getting paid. Read Buzzfeed, watch YouTube. Sounds fun.

      • Yola on 15/12/2022 - 09:48
        +1

        and comment on Ozbargain.

      • El cheepo on 15/12/2022 - 10:47

        Isn’t that what all office workers do? 🫣

  • AngoraFish on 14/12/2022 - 08:17
    +10

    'fair' is odd terminology. Being made redundant sucks for sure, and it definitely should have been done in person.

    At the end of the day, however, you aren't any worse off financially that you otherwise would have been.

    I don't think you have any claims through the FWA. The company isn't avoiding any liabilities, they still need to pay out your accrued annual leave either way.

    If they've terminated your employment in lieu of notice you'll just get outstanding leave paid out as a lump sum instead of as part of your (fortnightly?) pay packet.

    They should also be giving you at least one week's notice, or pay out your notice period.

    • burningrage on 14/12/2022 - 08:25
      +5

      This!

      I agree the timing sucks but 'fair' is really in the eye of beholder as you have just discovered. You are still being paid everything you are owed and maybe, even better, pay out your notice period.

      I think you are only lamenting the fact they did this to you while you were on holiday and that you're seeking retribution of some sort to quench your disappointment.

      • ozbargainy on 14/12/2022 - 08:30
        -8

        It’s not disappointment, just need to know if the term ‘unfair dismissal’ applies or not in view of them revoking the leave and terminating me early instead

        • AngoraFish on 14/12/2022 - 08:43
          +5

          Unfair dismissal doesn't apply. Unfair dismissal only applies if the termination is for an unlawful purpose, or extreme in light of the circumstances (eg sacking you for taking 5 minutes too long on a break). The company is lawfully able to terminate you if your position is genuinely redundant, and is entitled to do that during a period of leave, including annual leave and even maternity leave.

          You still seem to think you're losing money somehow, you're not. The money you are paid as annual leave was already money in the bank that you had accrued as part of working your normal hours. It's the figure at the bottom of every pay slip.

          If you resigned instead of being made redundant you would have been paid out your annual leave as a lump sum. If you are made redundant you get paid out for unused annual leave as a lump sum. If you took annual leave for another three weeks and then finished on the last day you would be getting the same amount fortnightly (?) instead of as a lump sum, but the total cash value is the same regardless.

        • pharkurnell on 14/12/2022 - 08:55

          no it doesnt.

    • ozbargainy on 14/12/2022 - 08:26

      Entitlement will be paid plus now the unused annual leave bit.

      I contacted the FWA anyways but any idea if there’s any timeline to lodge a claim just in case?

      • AngoraFish on 14/12/2022 - 08:30
        +4

        You only have 21 days to lodge a case for unfair dismissal. If you've been stiffed entitlements you have years to follow that up.

        • ozbargainy on 14/12/2022 - 22:56

          Yep, same feedback from FWA re the 21d, just waiting for their advice & will take it from there, thx

  • Arcticsoldier on 14/12/2022 - 08:21
    +5

    You had a chat with HR and they advise you work was nearing completion and that they would seek redeployment correct? Are you on a contract? It seems Wether you were on leave or in the office you may have been made redundant anyways. It probably better for them as they have less to payout on your return. Do check your contract and it will tell you what you are entitled to eg// 4 weeks notice etc…

    • ozbargainy on 14/12/2022 - 08:27

      Permanent full time. Agree that this is made so they can save some money instead of paying it after my leave

      • Quantumcat on 14/12/2022 - 09:24
        +2

        What money do you think they're saving?

        • ozbargainy on 14/12/2022 - 23:00

          Assume return date is 10/1, if i was to continue my leave til then, they would pay me from my leave balance till 10/1 which will include the 3 public holidays & super as well

          Now instead of waiting till 10/1, they will terminate on 15/12 and pay all entitlements until 15/12 so they can avoid the period from 16/12 to 10/1

          • cookie2 on 14/12/2022 - 23:11
            -6

            @ozbargainy: But why would you get paid the public holidays when you're not working them? You just get the day off without using AL.

            • miicah on 15/12/2022 - 09:32
              +2

              @cookie2: At least in the public service, if you take request a week off that includes a PH, it will only take 4 days of leave from your balance.

          • Itsagooddeal on 15/12/2022 - 06:20
            +1

            @ozbargainy: If they make your position redundant immediately as in your scenario, they still have to pay the notice period that exists in the employment contract (standard is 4 weeks) in lieu of the notice itself. So if position made redundant as at 15/12 then still paid for 4 weeks from then.

            • Itsagooddeal on 15/12/2022 - 06:22

              @Itsagooddeal: Also, HR would have to make reasonable attempts to make contact with you when redundancies are announced.

              It's part of the legal requirement to consult with all affected employees (including those on leave - annual, sick, carers or Parental)

          • Nice one baby on 15/12/2022 - 06:35

            @ozbargainy: I've previously been paid for any public holidays that would have occured during my paid out a/l after leavving a job. Your'll probably find the same happens to you.

          • wtfnodeal on 16/12/2022 - 16:12

            @ozbargainy: Hang on, they informed you that your termination/redundancy with immediate effect without serving 2 weeks notice? Say they have informed you on 15 Dec, the notice needs to be served until 29 Dec in your case before counting down to calculate how much redundancy payment and payable leave balance as of close of business day on 29 Dec.

      • cookie2 on 14/12/2022 - 15:57
        +3

        What notice period are you entitled to, as per your contract?

        • wtfnodeal on 16/12/2022 - 16:15

          2 weeks per Fair Work Act as OP only worked for its employer for 1.5 years.

  • artxty on 14/12/2022 - 08:27
    +1

    Are you on a contract or a permanent employee.? I was previously on a contract and if i want to leave i give 5 days notice, but if they want to terminate the contract they will only give 1 day notice. Maybe check your contract?

    • Jimothy Wongingtons on 14/12/2022 - 08:51
      +1

      contract

      Yeah I mean sure there is the black and white of it… but what about the ..uh.. vibe of it?

  • Tricon on 14/12/2022 - 08:29
    +6

    I worked for a company where those with power made a woman on maternity leave redundant. One must remember that HR doesn't work for you and never has your best interest in mind; companies exist to profit from you. I believe that most people will have work but will never have a job.

  • bobbified on 14/12/2022 - 08:33

    I guess the question is "what sort of outcome would you like to see that you think is fair'?

    Remember to consider the question from both your's and the company's perspective.

    • ozbargainy on 14/12/2022 - 08:38
      +1

      Probably. From my point of view I think it is ‘fair’ that I will be paid until early Jan using my leave balance. Then they terminate me from that early Jan date with notice & redundancy entitlements and any balance of annual leave entitlement.

      Instead I think they want to avoid paying the 3 weeks left in Dec plus the public holidays

      • Muzeeb on 14/12/2022 - 08:41
        +1

        Do you get paid the public holidays while on leave? I sure don't. I just don't lose a days rec leave entitlement.

        You will get paid the 3 weeks leave owing as a lump sum. You might pay more tax but that will balance out on June 30 2023.

      • jellykingdom on 14/12/2022 - 08:42
        +2

        i don't think from the company's perspective it makes any financial difference. But i get your point; you could have been employed until Dec, then gotten X + Holiday wks of pay with which to find another job. Now you've spent money on the holiday which you could potentially need to have saved for being unemployed, and you have less payout to find another job

        Definitely unfair but unlikely they've done it with fairness or unfairness in mind

        No clue what you could do next. Maybe you'd win something in court (I doubt it) but you'd spend more money to win something on principle only

      • dwillia on 14/12/2022 - 08:44

        I think this is the fairest option

      • bobbified on 14/12/2022 - 09:10
        +3

        They will pay you whatever leave entitlements you have accrued and haven't used. So there's no difference other than the 3 public holidays for Christmas and New Years.

      • Seraphin7 on 14/12/2022 - 10:26
        +1

        I'm no HR/payroll expert, and have no desire to attempt to pull out the spreadsheet, but at any material level you are not missing out on anything.

        By way of example, you are currently "on leave" and have a total of 4 weeks leave left (that you are intending on using up over the next 4 weeks).

        You get made redundant today, you will be paid out those 4 weeks leave, plus any notice period, and any redundancy payment.

        Or, you use up the 4 weeks leave, get made redundant then, and then get paid your notice period and any redundancy payment.

        The payment in the above scenarios is identical, not withstanding little adjustments for accruals as others have mentioned.

  • scrambledeggs on 14/12/2022 - 08:55
    +1

    Pretty sure OP is worse off financially. OP would have continued to accrue leave while on leave if they waited for OP to return before applying the redundancy. I'd fight it.

    • ozbargainy on 14/12/2022 - 08:59
      +1

      My exact point. I’d have been paid till early January as I have enough leave balance. Then after that they would pay me the notice + redundancy from that early Jan date onwards.

      Now they want to shift everything forward

      • Muzeeb on 14/12/2022 - 09:10
        +7

        I'm confused.

        Your argument started off with fairness

        Yes sure, it’s not about entitlement but about fairness

        Now it's about entitlements?

        • ensanguined on 14/12/2022 - 15:22
          +2

          This person is mind blown that someone on OzBargain is upset that they have effectively been ripped off multiple days of pay.

          • Zizkov on 16/12/2022 - 08:58

            @ensanguined: yep they're going after them for word choice. Missed entitlements = unfair, in my book.

    • bobbified on 14/12/2022 - 09:14
      +2

      Annual leave accrues at 1.6 days per month. It's pretty small in the scheme of things..

    • Quantumcat on 14/12/2022 - 09:25
      +2

      What is there to fight? Yes it sucks to miss out on a couple of extra days' pay but they haven't done anything illegal.

    • gromit on 15/12/2022 - 13:08
      +1

      fight it based on what? Their is no requirement to wait for leave to finish before being made redundant, he could be in a hospital dieing and they could do it (though would be pretty heartless).

  • JimmyF on 14/12/2022 - 09:14
    +1

    What do you think of that?, is it fair?, just can’t get my head around being terminated while on leave.

    Doesn't really change much for you, you'll get your notice periods etc and all unused leave paid out.

    So if they do it now or when you return, not too much changes dollar wise, sure you miss out on a 3 hours a week of leave you would have clocked up, so say a days pay. But this way, at least you can start looking and get a head start.

    • Quantumcat on 14/12/2022 - 09:27

      Yeah I think the extra time to jobsearch is worth more than the extra few days of pay. Might potentially be unemployed a week or two less than you otherwise would have been.

  • Seraphin7 on 14/12/2022 - 10:19
    +5

    The fact someone is on leave is ultimately irrelevant in all of this. It's a little unusual, but it's not in any way unfair.

    I would say that this sort of thing is likely to be more common place in the world of "work from home".

  • Donaldhump on 14/12/2022 - 10:38
    +7

    Could be worse, I went to a company reorg meeting where colleague and I were not on the org chart. When I asked they went red.
    They clearly forgot to make us redundant first. I worked for another 3 weeks then got the tap.

    Best moment ever quick cash and straight to airport.

    I would tell them to pack up your stuff and deliver it to your house on a Sunday when you will be home

  • 7ekn00 on 14/12/2022 - 12:51
    +3

    You took leave, the company realized they can cope without you, therefor position not needed :/

    Famous Simpson quote: "Well Mr Smithers, you shouldn't have taken leave" ;)

  • redslert on 14/12/2022 - 16:06
    +1

    Lesson to be learnt, don't take leave when the business is quiet.
    Take leave when you are irreplaceable.

    • [Deactivated] on 14/12/2022 - 16:08
      +1

      What businesses allow leaves during busy periods ?

      • IM-Cheap on 16/12/2022 - 20:23

        I book leave a minimum of 6mths in advance so its pretty much unreasonable not to approve it and up to management to resource around it - they don't so I aways come back to a pile of work.

  • CandyMan on 14/12/2022 - 16:36

    Depends on how long you were working there and your contract. Fair work website is pretty comprehensive

  • Drakesy on 14/12/2022 - 17:01
    +1

    Welcome to the real world.

    No job is ever permanent.
    Maybe keep an eye out on their future job ads. If they hire someone similar to your role pull them up on it.

    • TheLoveOfChips on 15/12/2022 - 19:53

      This is very true, if in the next few weeks/couple of months they advertise for yours or a very similar position could argue it was a non genuine redundancy

    • Zizkov on 16/12/2022 - 08:59

      Very motivational.

  • mousie on 14/12/2022 - 17:43
    +1

    Being ticked and flicked unfortunately is part of many careers now.

    Always know your number in terms of what it would take you to leave without contest. It may be 2 months 3months and have that as floor.

    FWA you have to move quickly and lodge within 21days. Just go through the process, they will try to mediate through an alternate dispute resolution process as arbitration is expensive and will likely be a multiple of your floor number per above.

    All the best.

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