Well we’ve finally made it. A court ruling on smoking on balconies

maxyzee on 29/12/2022 - 19:53

Well this is something. I’m sure this was posted on one of the forums a couple of years ago.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/room-with-a-feud-apartme…

TLDR: An apartment owner complained to their strata about their neighbours smoking in the balcony and took through to the NSW high court which ruled in their favour.

It means that a precedent has now been set for any strata to ban any activity that strata seems to be to the detriment of other apartment dwellers.

Me personally I don’t like how this is going. I guess we’ll see where this goes.

Home & Garden

Comments

        • bargaino on 31/12/2022 - 11:49
          +1

          But the air smells so clean up here. Less so for those downwind of my horse :-)

          If a person really smokes only once a month, first good on you, I'd be one of the addicted.
          Second, wouldn't you be doing it socially? Not on a tiny balcony that a adjoins your neighbour's window?
          Surely an occasional smoker can find a way to to hurt their neighbours?

          Bear in mind these are local bylaws. If you can smoke on your balcony without harming anybody, nobody complains and the bylaw does not matter.

          • mirovich on 31/12/2022 - 12:17

            @bargaino: I’m a social smoker but recently moved to vapes. I live on a ground floor apartment and had a neighbour on the 3rd floor complained to strata when I had a ciggie in my own backyard. Our strata don’t have bylaws banning smoking so they ignored his complaint.

            If ppl have issues with smoking then should rent or buy a house.

            • bargaino on 31/12/2022 - 12:33
              +1

              @mirovich: First paragraph, I agree. But then you go getting silly. Balconies in crowded block of small flats is not the same.
              And these days, I find that most smokers do not have your attitude. They are considerate of others.

            • ihfree on 31/12/2022 - 12:35

              @mirovich: Yeah, not that easy especially with inflation, centralisation, access to jobs, rising rates, population growth, etc.

              Alternatively the government could ban the archaic and dangerous activity.

              Last I read, long term effects of vapes also aren't known and given most of the products are black market and unregulated, it's got huge potential for health issues in the future.

              • mirovich on 31/12/2022 - 12:47
                +1

                @ihfree: You can buy vapes from NZ, it’s regulated over there.

                I believe in personal freedom and society with less restrictions. If a person causing harm to neighbour by habits such as smoke or loud music, then should be judged case-by-case basis.

      • ihfree on 31/12/2022 - 12:30

        That's just their selfish nature - not wanting their space polluted. There are more than enough inconsiderate smokers. Have a look at any area smokers frequent - it will be littered with cigarette butts.

        You also see smokers flick butts out their car windows. This behaviour 100% deserves a report to the EPA.

        • mirovich on 31/12/2022 - 12:33

          Ciggies don’t make ppl selfish. If they don’t smoke then they will litter something else.

          • ihfree on 31/12/2022 - 12:39
            +1

            @mirovich: You also see disposable vapes with a lithium battery scattered around the streets. They almost need to be disposed of as e-waste.

            There is a strangely disproportionate amount of smokers and vapers who are selfish.

            • Assburg on 31/12/2022 - 16:50
              -1

              @ihfree: I also see a lot of food rubbish around (more than I do cigarette butts in terms of both quantity and volume). Should I conclude that people who eat food are usually selfish polluters who throw chip packets from car windows while driving recklessly and listening to Andrew Tate podcasts?

              • ihfree on 31/12/2022 - 17:58

                @Assburg: Nah, they just need to be fined.

                I'd love to see l more people fined for littering. Fines are already more severe for throwing a lit cigarette from a vehicle. They should be increased for other dangerous items such as lithium batteries.

                The government should step up, more so than they do, to compensate for failed parenting.

          • Motek Benzona on 01/01/2023 - 10:06

            @mirovich: This is so true!! SInce i gave up ciggies i have replaced butt throwing with random leftover papers throwing.. I often wait until i am in a very clean area before surrogogating the butt throw to another object. I love pollution me, because i used to partake in a legal pastime, i love to litter

      • Assburg on 31/12/2022 - 17:06

        If I were renting a freeway I'd probably ride my bike on it.

        I think your belief that smoking is a disgusting habit leads you to quickly dehumanise smokers and exaggerate the situation.

        Flats generally forbid people from smoking inside in the lease agreement, and the use of balcony has nothing to do with selfish reasons. That and, it's generally just bad practice to burn things inside.

        Secondly, yes, smoking has a very distinct smell so it's easy to notice it when you're on your balcony and someone nearby is smoking. That said, the human nose is very sensitive and can detect things in harmless concentration. It's you, the person with the nose who decides to feel disgusted and repulsed, which of course leads to anger.

        In the same way, I could let myself feel repulsed by everyone I see with any excess weight on their body. Overeating is a disgusting habit, overweight people are far more likely to need assistance from our medical system, and when I see them I can just imagine how they endlessly eat McDonald's and throw fast food rubbish on the ground.

        In fact, I don't want to see any fat people or let their filthy fatty photons enter my eyeballs, so, should my friends and I buy an apartment complex and ban overweight people from renting because it impedes us all from quiet enjoyment of our apartments?

        Oh wait… Vision is just one of my senses and my mind uses the information it provides to make decisions, I guess I'll just come back to reality and not let myself get upset by silly things.

        • p1 ama on 02/01/2023 - 18:58

          If I were renting a freeway I'd probably ride my bike on it.

          Renting an apartment in a strata building is not like renting a freeway - the analogy would be more like if you tried to argue that you can ride your bike down the tollway because you bought a day-pass.

    • Ughhh on 31/12/2022 - 12:42

      You just gotta accept nobody's perfect and living in a city means putting up with other people's imperfections.

      Would blasting loud (but within legal limits) annoying music throughout the day to the point where surrounding units can hear be an imperfection?

      • Assburg on 31/12/2022 - 17:13

        Well if it's within legal limits, no. They're enjoying themselves without breaking the law. I mean, it's no worse than having shitty kids.

        If you really can't let it go, or put your own music on or something, the imperfection lies with you. You've decided to live in the city after all.

        If the sounds of your neighbours and the outside world really upset you, you're free to line your walls and windows with accoustic foam.

        • Ughhh on 31/12/2022 - 17:52

          Classy.
          I guess you would have the same mindset with say odour? Jeffery dahmer wouldve loved you as a neighbour.

    • Quantumcat on 31/12/2022 - 18:12
      +1

      If you smoke less than once a month it can't be too much trouble to have your monthly cigarette while you're out and about, or to go to a common area of the apartment building gardens and smoke there. The only people it would really affect are the ones that need multiple per day.

  • mirovich on 31/12/2022 - 09:29
    +3

    This is not the high court. It’s just civil and administrative tribunal.

  • filmer on 31/12/2022 - 16:06
    +7

    I'd love it if smoking on footpaths would be banned also.

    • Assburg on 31/12/2022 - 17:19
      -3

      Yep also hoping they ban ugly people too, or anyone who talks above a whisper. The assault on my senses is akin to criminal assault and if I'm doing anything less than enjoying myself in every way possible the government needs to fix this problem.

      But really, everyone in this thread who is angered by smoking would be angered by something else instead… Genuinely recommend consulting a therapist because disagreeable smells and sounds shouldn't upset you to the point of wanting legislation enacted.

      • ihfree on 31/12/2022 - 17:59
        +2

        Where would you go?

      • p1 ama on 31/12/2022 - 19:42
        +2

        But really, everyone in this thread who is angered by smoking would be angered by something else instead… Genuinely recommend consulting a therapist because disagreeable smells and sounds shouldn't upset you to the point of wanting legislation enacted.

        It's not that it is "disagreeable", it is that it literally causes serious physical health problems and potentially death.

        For example,

        (i) There is evidence of a strong, consistent and dose-dependent association between exposure to secondhand smoke and risk of stroke, suggestive of a causal relationship, with disproportionately high risk at low levels of exposure suggesting no safe lower limit of exposure. https://academic.oup.com/jpubhealth/article/33/4/496/1567333

        (ii) Our results indicate that women and children living with smokers are at increased risk of premature death and disease from exposure to SHS. Interventions to protect women and children from household SHS need to be strengthened. https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2007…

        (iii) Exposure to SHS is related to the ever-increasing frequency of diseases among children and adults, such as respiratory illness, asthma, otitis media, sudden infant death syndrome, vascular dysfunction, and predisposition toward cardiovascular disease and cancer (15, 52, 95, 109). https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajplung.002…

        (iv) SHS exposure resulted in more than 42 000 deaths: more than 41 000 adults and nearly 900 infants. https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2012…

      • filmer on 02/01/2023 - 21:06

        Do you really think the smell is the only issue with people smoking near you? It's the very real potential of inhaling their second hand smoke while you are just trying to go about your day.

      • cadwalader on 03/01/2023 - 12:50
        +1

        People can be born ugly but nobody is born a smoker.

        Seeing ugly people won't give my eyes cancer.

        Ugliness from people being ugly on their balconies won't waft up into my apartment.

        I can look away from ugly people on the footpaths but can smell smoke from several metres behind me.

        Trying to compare smoking to anything that isn't an entirely optional widespreading nuisance and detriment to health of others that doesn't have any other benefit anyone is just ridiculous.

  • DiscoJango on 31/12/2022 - 17:26

    If you want freedom, don’t live in an apartment.

  • tessel on 31/12/2022 - 17:42
    +6

    Why is it a bad thing? Clearly something wrong with me because I don't go out of my way to upset my neighbours. Being home is peace and quiet. I don't want my neighbours to hear loud music, smoke or screaming kids all day non stop. I'm honestly dumb founded why people think it's ok to smoke on a balcony knowing that's going into other apartments. The Dave guys for people playing loud music all day and late into the night and did barking all day.

  • [Deactivated] on 31/12/2022 - 18:36
    +1

    What if tomorrow vegetarians would want us to stop bbq smoke ? Genuine question. I don't smoke and love my bbq.

    • CocaKoala on 31/12/2022 - 21:34

      First of all you don't barbecue every hour of every day, which most smoking addicts do. Second, you are barbecuing to eat, which is very different from smoking. Third, I am a vegetarian and I would not mind my neighbour barbecuing at all..

    • freefall101 on 01/01/2023 - 07:41
      +2

      I lived in an apartment where the strata banned bbqs on the balcony. Wasn’t a vegetarian issue, it was a smoke one.

      When I wanted to have a bbq I went to the park. Problem solved.

  • rily001 on 31/12/2022 - 21:42
    +4

    I support this - I live in a ground floor apartment and the neighbours upstairs smoke and drop their cigarettes onto my balcony a few times a day.

    Ive tried to contact them through Building Manager, Strata and in person but these guys dont give a FK…
    Within 3 months of them moving in; common areas littered with cigg butts

    Smoking on common property & balcony is banned - It's in the strata by-laws that everyone who lives in apartments have to abide by so i dont feel sorry for these inconsiderate people.

    If they want to smoke on their balconies then they should move somewhere where smoking is allowed in their by-laws…

    People should be made aware of the by-laws BEFORE moving in. Make them enforceable by law - this will create an environment where everyone can live respectfully… if you dont agree with the by-laws then move.

    By the way - there are other smokers in the apartment who do abide by the strata laws; they just walk out of the apartment to a small park area and puff away

    • Jolakot on 31/12/2022 - 22:12
      +2

      Buy a canister of fart spray and spray it up towards them when they smoke, would get the point across very quickly

      • Motek Benzona on 01/01/2023 - 10:07

        great idea! If you are three and still in kindy

        • smartazz104 on 01/01/2023 - 13:28
          +2

          Well that’s how it is when you deal with inconsiderate smokers.

    • smartazz104 on 01/01/2023 - 13:28

      Collect all the butts and mail them all back to the offenders.

    • kiriakoz on 01/01/2023 - 23:28

      that sucks man, I'd hate to pick up other people's cigarette butts all day. I'd probably go mental tbh.

  • nobro25 on 01/01/2023 - 08:25

    I'm a non smoker. I think smoking should be allowed, except they'll need to pay more in strata and they'll need to fork out more for a custom filter installation on this own balcony to filter the air. This may cost up to the tens of thousands, not to mention the costs of running it.

    Smoking is a luxury, if you want it you have to cop it.

  • quick-dry on 01/01/2023 - 12:09
    +1

    Market opportunity: smoke tends to waft up not down right?, so smoking allowed on the top floor/penthouse balconies only - and a penalty/cleaning levy applicable to upper floor if there are cigarette butts found on the ground areas below.

    I'm a non-smoker and it really kills my lungs getting the smoke wafting up/over from other balconies, and much as I'd be happy with not having to even think about smoke - I'm not going to outright ban something if there is a solution that lets them enjoy their thing without it hurting me. Why say "no" if there is a way to say "yes" that works for us all.

  • iLikeSales on 01/01/2023 - 16:37
    +2

    Have a neighbour that smokes. My family member needs a buffer every now and then. I cant keep turning on the AC everytime they smoke. I have to run and close EVERY single door/window. Wished they just do what new zealand did and ban it. NSW doesn't have the balls though.

  • us3rnam3tak3n on 01/01/2023 - 18:44
    +1

    Good news but I fail to see the controversy - emitting toxic substances from a balcony in high density living should be banned. Whether it's cigarette smoke, spray paint, asbestos fibres etc the responsibility to limit is always with the emitter.

  • LoserScott on 01/01/2023 - 21:43
    +1

    Chance to inforce such behaviour impossible, chance to inforce train evasion crimes impossible (until biometric facial recognition),Chance to catch a text by driving speeder impossible (costs money to set up cam catching phone holders especially on back alley streets),Chance to attack someone and get away with it very possible.

    So what happens in court stays in court.

  • Dack Smith on 02/01/2023 - 02:06
    -5

    Smokers have rights too, nothing wrong with smoking on the balcony since it is the outside - if people don’t want to smell the smoke? Just go somewhere else.

    I tend to smoke a few in the evenings on my sixth floor apartment balcony, right round dinner time and there’s nothing people can do about it since Australia is a free country with freedoms.

    Got a number of complaints but I just tell those nosy louts to piss off …… and in passing by drop a few butts outside their doorway for good measure lol

    • freefall101 on 02/01/2023 - 10:50
      +1

      Smokers have rights too

      What rights are those?

      and in passing by drop a few butts outside their doorway for good measure lol

      Littering is illegal, so is harassing people.

      I’d go read your rental agreement on respecting others quiet enjoyment before the building owners get sick of hearing complaints about you and you suddenly learn a little more about how our legal system works.

    • brendanm on 03/01/2023 - 11:33

      Shit take, as usual.

    • Seaword on 03/01/2023 - 15:52

      Won't someone think of the smokers?!?!?

  • CoreJava on 02/01/2023 - 07:33

    I have a neighbour always cooks curry and stinks like hell. I think government should ban people from cooking curry when the door is open.

    • Miss B on 02/01/2023 - 10:31
      +3

      I don't even believe you smokers can smell anyone's curry over your cigarette smoke. This is clearly a line you've all rehearsed from your smokers handbook.

      • cadwalader on 03/01/2023 - 13:34

        Oh no, they've come for the smokers. Now watch out cookers, they'll come for you too.

        • iCandy on 03/01/2023 - 20:27

          Your comment isn’t as interesting as you think it is…

    • Dack Smith on 02/01/2023 - 14:48

      They have a right to cook whatever they like, just like they can’t tell you to stop farting.

      You don’t want to be called racist right?

      Respect freedom

    • iCandy on 03/01/2023 - 13:24

      And there it is!

  • bryans on 02/01/2023 - 10:35
    -2

    Live on the top floor of an apartment. Problem solved.

  • JoeBlack03 on 02/01/2023 - 13:29
    +1

    Didn't we just talk about this? Are Smokers Inconsiderate A**holes?
    Nobody likes smokers, except smokers themselves.

  • Odin on 02/01/2023 - 17:04
    +1

    Pls also ban shit smelling food. The amount of times I've smelt horrible cooking…

  • atali on 02/01/2023 - 19:49
    +1

    I do smoke 3 ciggies a day and being considerate not to let others inhale secondhand smoke. But what is strange is the general attitude here in Australia towards smoking but not drinking. imo drink driving and cowards punch won’t happen with smoking so smoker would cause more harm to themselves rather than others? (aside from second hand smoking on a long term)

    • Quantumcat on 02/01/2023 - 20:06
      +1

      I guess with drinking, you can do it around others who aren't drinking without impacting them negatively, up to a point (slightly tipsy people are fun but raging drunks are not). Whereas with smoking even one puff is unpleasant to a non-smoker.

    • p1 ama on 02/01/2023 - 22:10

      imo drink driving and cowards punch won’t happen with smoking so smoker would cause more harm to themselves rather than others? (aside from second hand smoking on a long term)

      Drink driving and king-hitting someone are both already illegal.

      FWIW, on your question as to why the general attitude in Australia is so negative towards smoking - it's because we've spent the better part of the last three decades letting people know about the harms of smoking. As those who grew up learning about the harms of smoking reached their teens, they were less likely to pick up smoking, and now as adults, they're less likely to be smokers and have held on to the negative perception of smoking.

  • Lund Eleven on 02/01/2023 - 22:38
    +1

    "Residents must not interfere, or cause or permit interference, with the reasonable peace, comfort or privacy of neighbours."

    Literally nothing new.

    Noise pollution is not allowed, why should literal air pollution be?

    How about shitting on your own balcony? We think that's fine? Just letting the smell waft everywhere, and that's arguably only unpleasant, whereas smoking has more serious health implications.

    It's rare that someone will be drinking alcohol so vigorously that they splash it into your mouth, or so much of it and so strong that the fumes literally waft over to you.

    It's a real disturbance that permeates and invades the spaces of other people, go use chewing tobacco or snuff on your balcony, just don't spit it over the edge or that'll get banned too.

  • SolitaryMan on 03/01/2023 - 09:33

    The description is so wrong. First of all, there is.no such body as the “NSW high court”, and this case was not even in court, it was at NCAT.

    • pharkurnell on 03/01/2023 - 10:48

      I'm offended by the wrong heading… off to OzCourt to get it changed….

  • anzacpaul on 03/01/2023 - 10:08
    +1

    Lol I kind of get the complaint in the article, but we all know this is just pure lawyer bs…..

    "As a result, they argued they suffered a persistent smell and taste of cigarette smoke, irritated eyes, noses and throats, frequent sneezing, headaches, irritability and loss of concentration, restless sleep and insomnia."

  • pharkurnell on 03/01/2023 - 10:47
    +1

    Reason #5,032,425,835,031 not to live in a unit.

  • Miss B on 03/01/2023 - 16:11

    There's already a solution for this.

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