This outcome was inevitable.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/unfit-medicare-syste…
Many medical centre are dodgy and charge for services that were never provided. No wonder many GPs drive high end luxury cars (Land Rover, Porche, Mercedes etc.) and own multi-million dollar houses.
@GordonD: @GordonD:
Step 1: login at https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/medicare
Step 2: See all the transactions under your name
@GordonD: @GordonD: by law, if the provider bulk bills, they must issue you an assignment of benefit form (DB4). If the provider you see fails to do this, it's a punishable act. Ref: MBS, GN.9.25 Penalties and Liabilities http://www.mbsonline.gov.au/internet/mbsonline/publishing.ns…
"A penalty of up to $1,000 or imprisonment for up to three months, or both, may be imposed on any person who obtains a patient's signature on a direct-billing form without the obligatory details having been entered on the form before the person signs, or who fails to cause a patient to be given a copy of the completed form"
The biggest rort of the health system is ppl using ED for free treatment to avoid a doctors bill. This has forced massive negative outcomes for the honest medical services and patients.
.
Greed isn't the big problem, apathy,stupidity and denial are.
The core problems driving every existential issue ,is the amount of humans on earth, capitalism running up against finite resources and our physical impacts in every corner of the planet.
Most doctors used to bulk bill. Especially in the lower income areas.
But the medicare rebate wasn't increased for years. So existing doctors dropped out of bulk billing to maintain their income. And new doctors increasingly chose not to go into general practice. So more and more patients went to ERs to get treatment where it was still free and they didn't have to wait weeks to get to see a doctor about a condition that they would probably have recovered from before then. They just had to wait hours in ERs.
Is anyone happy with the results of medicare rebates being frozen for years. GPs aren't. Patients who want to see GPs and now either have pay, or wait hours in ERs aren't.
It was all about transferring costs to someone else. GPs are funded by medicare which is paid for by the federal government. ERs are parts of hospitals that are funded by state governments.
Yes, but sadly, ERs are being gamed by ppl who have not emergency crap, and are not turned away. Not fair on the system, the staff or others.
Agree Medicare was stared deliberately by a govt who has never seen it as anything more than an opportunity to add another layer of revenue raising via added levies. Much like local govt. Alternative tax collection. Except local govt has massive powers to grab land titles in it's grasp, for certain fails.
Are you old enough to remember before Medicare? I go back before MediBank. Believe me Universal Health Care is much better.
@try2bhelpful: ('edit 'starved deliberately…")
You misread me. I am all for Universal health care, BUT rolling up to ER with splinters,hangovers,or a bandaidable wound etc is pox. Once triaged if the condition is seen to be a non emergency and can be dealt with later by a GP, they should be either sent away with a referral, or treated and then the bill either paid by them, or added to their tax bill, if defaulted. There needs to be an incentive to NOT burden ER system.
It's hard enough for emergency staff to deal with rivers of meth related crap.
@Protractor: sorry. I did misread your post. I have to admit we are a bit of the problem with ER because our GP is only Monday to Friday. We try to hold out but sometimes it is hard to know what is a problem and what isn't. A couple of things we almost dismissed ended with my other half being in hospital for a few days. I would love to see some 24 hour GP clinics that are attached to the hospitals so they can do the triage. I would be quite happy to be told to "go home and go to your own GP" once something has been assessed.
@try2bhelpful: I do think the govt is setting up 24hr clinics, but I think it will take time. And some teething. Staff is one issue but sheer numbers of inpatients is exponentially caving the system in. We are about to get migrants to fill some roles, but with 900K migrants coming in 2 years, only a single figure % will be health related, so the snowball continues. Our GP retired. He bulk billed. He was the senior GP at the local clinic, and retired from that role too. Now the practise has abandoned bulk billing completely.
In reality there's just too many bums on seats on the blue planet, and not only does 'something have to give' , it clearly is.But,unlike us, the earth doesn't have the luxury of health insurance.
@Protractor: Absolutely, you are singing to the choir.
I have a brilliant GP. He doesn't bulk bill, and is a tad expensive, but he is very good at spotting issues and he has a good relationship with a bunch of specialists. After he removed my Melanoma he got the specialist to stay behind one night to see me; this meant my treatment started months earlier. Personally I don't have the issues with copayments, for people who can afford it, but I don't see the point of private hospitals. I would prefer to see that money go into the public system.
I've never had kids so my footprint stops with me. Then again it means I haven't bred the person who might provide the solution either :)
Before someone suggests this will all be perfect under a user-pays system.
That exists https://www.google.com/search?q=usa+medical+bill
It's bloody stupid
Worry not.
Pretty sure after tomorrow, not even the sycophants in Canberra will be emulating or imitating much about the trainwreck that is Trumposlovakia.
Let alone, what he would do to the health system.
I had major surgery last year covered under Medicare and if it was the US I'd be looking at least $200k. Who can afford that?
People who hold private health insurance?
Health insurance in the US wouldn't cover the full amount unless you have a really good employer. The post op medication required for life is currently $29.99 a month in Australia ($79.99 privately) and in the US it's $2000-$5000.
Imagine if your employer provided health insurance in Australia. Now that would be a rort.
bahahahahahah wow, you actually think this?
You are lucky your surgery happened before we start paying $368 billions (before the usual Defence costs blowouts) to US for white elephant submarines, I believe free universal healthcare in Australia will end within this decade to pay for those subs.
We should have gone nuclear submarine long ago. The need for deterrents are more than ever.
Even the best designed systems can only be effective majority of the time.
It is like identity theft used for GST refund scams with the ATO.
Could probably catch the outliers but not the ones who are probably scamming an extra 5%.
Problem with most of the public sector is they dislike efficiency and new ideas. All the consultants bought in are applying cutting edge band aids.
The Sydney Morning Herald, a publication that makes money from your clicks and your subscriptions who have "This story is part of a series examining how billions of dollars are being rorted from Medicare each year. See all 30 stories." (Emphasis mine) at the top of their article do appear to be pushing a very specific narrative, don't they?
A small number of businesses are ripping off the system. A small number of businesses rip off every system (See: Covid support payments to Harvey Norman, banking industry bail outs, building industry practises from the last handful of years), it doesn't mean every system that needs tightening up should be removed.
Feel free to move to the US if you're not a fan of a decent healthcare system.
Nothing about the mega rich and media tycoons rorting the tax system?
Or mining magnates using foreign money to usurp our sovereignty, or basically steal our gas resources?
Palmer is suing his 'own country' for $300B, and the media is not hounding him and Porter into the gutter where they belong?
Hypocrisy. The MSM has shafted the Australian population with social engineering and anti climate change action propaganda for decades. They are an entirely different life-form. Obviously none of their 'ethical' journos have offspring .( Human ones, that is.)
There are several problems and any corruption is usually related to not wanting to give up power.
Why can't GPs or supermarkets dispense basic medications?
GPs can if there's no pharmacy coverage and most good clinics have a decent stockpile. An example could be a public holiday with no pharmacies in the area open.
Unfortunately there's talk of removing medication like paracetamol from the supermarket shelves due to the easy access and easy overdosing. It's already in the case in a lot of other countries.
The answer to the first question is a Medicare issue. Medicare wants to know you are actually needing the service for a specialist and not just seeing them willy nilly. So they set the requirements, it's all red tape, basically go get this referral so we know you're not wasting resources by wasting resources and then we will pay you out the rebate.
Except the reality is that your GP is never, ever, going to say to you, "Despite the specialist wanting to see you again, I don't believe it's necessary so I won't be issuing you with another referral".
But that's not what @kawinuyo said. The purpose is to avoid you deciding you're going to see a neurologist because you have a headache, or ENT because you have nose obstruction, without seeing your GP to support the referral.
You can probably still do it in Australia, if you want to see a specialist, but you won't have a rebate without a referral letter.
There are probably pros and cons. Pros are more obvious (restricting demand and making sure only relevant reasons get to the specialists), but at the same time it'd be great if people could easily access a psychiatrist if they are feeling depressed. However, waitlists are severla months long (in big cities and rural areas) even with Medicare controlling demand through referrals. Australia does nothing to attract doctors from overseas, it's actually a nightmare, but that's a more complex problem.
The whole point of separating the prescribing and dispensing medications is to remove conflict of interest. If you were going to profit from the sale of a medication, you would be more likely to prescribe it.
Which is why allowing pharmacists the ability to prescribe medications is a farce.
I think most people in the health system, in particular the public hospital system, are just trying to do a good job for their communities, and it's kind of disheartening to see the lack of appreciation and even contempt for the profession.
Agree. The one thing hidden in this spurious thread is the motive.
If it was all about corruption and waste of public funds I can think of bigger issues.
I wish the govt would get the federal ICAC up so we can at least purge the politically corrupt as a priority.
The money wasted on AUKUS and other pro war gadgets, could (should) have been spent on health budget.
(and education,enviro,biosecurity)
The problem is not even AUKUS.
If you haven't yet, you should watch Utopia (Netflix TV series). That's exactly how the public sector works, it's actually triggering. The amount of money going down the drain every single day…
A friend worked in one particular department and they paid $6,000 (each) buying a few laptops that were being sold for less than 4,000 in any electronic store (without negotiation). Years ago, the department spent millions in licenses for a particular software that was already obsolete and was never used. Then they paid a huge amount of money to a "specialist" to provide MANDATORY training and relaxation sessions for employees, and another one to talk about "gender equality" in a sector where there are more women than men and no evidence of gender inequality.
We'd expect that any company buying a significant amount of items would be able to negotiate a better price. In the public sector, is the other way around.
All contractors move the decimal point on all contracts when it comes to mining or any govt service. The contracts are huge and they milk it. Yes, someone signs off on it, but the supplier has to have X amount of shite delivered at Y time or they lose the contract. I love Utopia. I get it entirely. Watch the youtube episode about subs. It is exactly about AUKUS. Truer than anything this and the previous govt has fabricated.
The public sector needs to efficient(yes) but equally it does not need to be "Robodebted" by the conservative right, just for the sake of ideology.We need them to do their jobs.
How many years ago did your anecdote occur? State/fed?
The solution is actually a bit more complex, but QUALITY ministers and a federal ICAC HAVE to be the starting point.
(profanity) in flash suits lecturing welfare recipients while they apply no oversight to their own portfolio is TOTALLY unacceptable. When they use mates to milk taxpayers they should go to jail, period.
I love Utopia. I get it entirely. Watch the youtube episode about subs. It is exactly about AUKUS. Truer than anything this and the previous govt has fabricated.
Your friend should have blown the whistle.
@Protractor: If you must know, part of the anecdote in NSW and part in VIC, both between 12-24 months ago.
No one ever blows the whistle, otherwise the noise would be unbearable. It's like Utopia… No one ever reports the stupid things happening every day, and the obvious corruption that everyone knows about.
@this is us: No-one blows the whistle because self interest trumps universal reform. Don't rock the boat?
The swallow in cow shit parody? (copied and pasted from another place) See point 3
.
Moral of the story:
Not everyone who shits on you is your enemy.
Not everyone who gets you out of deep shit is your friend.
If you are covered in shit, but warm and happy, shut the (profanity) up.
@Protractor: Probably more complex than that. It's more about not having hope that anything could change, and in the end you are the one making the noise, and can be penalised for that. If you know that everyone else sees what's happening and doesn't do anything about it, you might not feel encouraged to report (alleged) wrongdoings.
That's the reality. It's hard to fight against the system, and against corruption. That's the real reason why most people become part of that. It's not that they benefit (warm and happy), but because they are vulnerable/fearful/hopeless.
I could mention lots of personal anecdotes to prove my point but they'd still be anecdotal, and that's not the purpose of the discussion here. I can tell you that I've reported issues in the past and never got a reply. I escalated another matter and heard that "it is what it is" from someone two levels above in the hierarchy. So, I assume that's the Australian standard. Unless you go to the press and they like your story, you are alone and can lose your job, so better stay quiet.
When I type in Utopia on Netflix I get Dreamland
All government schemes are rorted. Recently got quotes for a split system under the Victorian home heating upgrade scheme. Most of the companies on the authorised list charged so high that they were effectively pocketing 75% of the rebate.
A rort is only a rort if you are not benefiting from the rort
Medicare rorts are a sideshow compared to the corruption in the NDIS. Every possible control in that system was removed by activists during its implementation because basic checks & balances means you hate disabled people, apparently.
As a result cash is just handed out to anybody that manages to tell the correct lies on the correct forms.
Plenty of companies and individuals rorting the NDIS.
You are absolutely right about this! The Medicare issue pales in comparison.
You forgot “poorly managed by the Government”.
This is one of the great pitfalls of a socialised health model.
Everyone is not spending their own money.
So they don't care about the costs as someone else is paying for it. They may likely seek medical attention for things that don't require medical attention.
When we place the cost on the individual, the benefit to the system is that people will only seek medical attention when its needed and when it is financially justified.
Preventitive healthcare is far more cost effective than the American model where lower-income people will avoid going in for anything that could possibly resolve itself
Must be time somebody played the baby boomer card.
Is this a troll post. The headline is opposite of the actual report's findings. The OP has not contributed to the discussions at all. Troll in my opinion.
This
NDIS
Childcare subsidy
Covid homebuilder grant
All extremely prone to rorting and hugely expensive
All pale into comparison compared to the $80+ billion spent on pensions, which is an absolute rort given how many pensioners are worth millions
Fair call.
Best part is the ones who are paying tax to support them likely won't get the same treatment when they get to their age.
How Good!
It's honestly insane how hard people push to cut every other form of welfare when a 8% haircut on welfare for seniors would be the equivalent of halving job-seeker, or a 15% shave would be the equivalent of halving NDIS. Hell, we pay more for senior welfare than we do for the entire health budget minus the private health rebate
If this was your home budget then it'd be like downgrading to cheap 1-ply toilet paper to bring your toilet paper budget down from $12 to $6 a month, while also paying $60 a month for a Telstra phone plan
I don’t understand why dental care has not been incorporated into Medicare yet.
Too many people will abuse it and you’d have to wait for like month or 2 or more to get a cleanup or filling done
Your poll is a rort.
I had an xray done when travelling and asked the clinic to forward the xray and report to my home clinic. Home clinic called me to say they had received the results. Maybe 25 second call. 15 min phone consult appears on my medicare benefits statement. I guess I should appreciate it was bulk billed. Maybe we should get an random surveys from medicare to verify services.
Did you expect me them to do that for free? They had to load the results into your file (admin) book in a spot to view results, interpret what that meant in the context of your medical history, call you and then document this in your medical record. The consult is sometimes up to 15mins depending what code they used. If it was via phone call outside of special pandemic provisions they would have got a tiny amount for this consult, during the pandemic they were getting the full amount for phone for a period of time.
If it was my doctor, and if he had looked at the results and discussed the the report then charge for a 15min phone consult. It was not my doctor and purely acknowledging the receipt of results then "A short consultation item (<6 minutes) for straightforward care (item 91890)" seems more appropriate. As you say it is something a nurse or administrator could do. If every report to the clinic gets a phone call and medicare charge the should reflect the time taken.
I understand where you’re coming from. The <6 min one can only be used under certain circumstances though, e.g. script renewal, otherwise they can’t bulk bill you, so very often that just use the level b one even though it’s under 15mins to avoid it costing you. I had this exact scenario with my kid once with a different doctor at our usual practice, they were going to charge me $70 no rebate and they said because it was very short they couldn’t bulk bill it as they usually did. But they went back and checked what he did and changed it to level b, they bulk billed in the end but if they didn’t it would have been less all up and only $20 out of pocket for me. So in these cases it’s more about the system than the GP, they very often use level b as what they did meets that criteria more than level a and it will cheaper for the patient. If they didn’t bulk be under level b you would have likely had to pay out of pocket.
Yeah, that's the sort of crap that is just taking advantage of the system and needs to be stopped. The only other industry where someone would charge for a 30 second phone call that was related to a matter previously paid for, is that of lawyers. Some people have no shame!
This is the link to the report "Independent Review of Medicare Integrity and Compliance".
https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-04/indepe…
Please state the facts rather your own opinion (aka trolling)
This is the media release from Minister of Health
https://www.health.gov.au/ministers/the-hon-mark-butler-mp/m…
Yeah absolutely no way they'll use this to justify the continued defunding of medicare leading to the great privatisation of the health system.
I think free universal healthcare have already ended in Australia with the loss of bulkbilling doctors and ED long wait times. I honestly believe we will eventually end up with an expensive healthcare system like US where the Military Industrial Complex has entrenched itself and which over decades had leached trillions off the US budget over healthcare/education/welfare. Remember the $368 billions we gifted them recently?
Had to give written evidence against a optometrist employed by Spec Savers a couple of years ago, who claimed visits I never had ie I had one visit and he claimed for 3, medicare were on to him
Also heard a hospital surgeon who did work on me was "moved" for rorting medicare
I was fortunate enough to get the perspectives of many doctors and let me tell the issue is very complicated - trust me a lot of them aren't just raking it in, when you factor in the medical practice costs (they have to cover all the staff and supplies/equipment + insurance etc.) some are barely making even.
There needs to be a tier of services (from a GP perspective only) that can be bulk-billed and ones that cannot rather than a broad spectrum.
some are barely making even
So the solution is to charge the patients for services they didn’t ask?
Yeah mate like under 1% of GPs would rort the system
My GP doesn't drive porsche. I wouldn't trust what Pradeep said.
All the GPS I know drive regular cars, like Honda civics, Camrys, the one that drives an Audi is married to a surgeon.
Yea right! My GP drives average older car and nothing fancy on her at all, I feel bad for her as I am concerned about her health but don't know what I can do really.
my mitsubishi has GPS
There's a lot of tall poppy syndrome going on in Australia.
We live in a strange world where people would be happy to pay $200 for a 5 minute Botox treatment, then complain bitterly about a $20 co-payment for their 15 minute diabetes assessment. GP's are specialists with a minimum of 11 years of medical training under their belts. Then the government treat them like trash, use them for their vaccine rollout then throw them under the bus for asking for a a pay increase.
The worst part is the politicians have the gall to say they are rorting the system— Politicians. Let that sink in.
When GP's leave the profession in droves to non-patient facing roles or flock to other better specialities you know these same idiots will call them greedy and selfish for leaving. Honestly, I don't know why GP's haven't gone on strike yet. RACGP should pull their thumb out and lead instead of seething in a corner getting bloodied by this PR.
A few media outlets still perpetuating the myth of widespread rorting…
The simple solution is all GP practices should stop bulk billing, hand patients a bill and ask them to sort out their rebate with Medicare…
https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2023/04/03/gps-m…
GPs are under billing by 350M
Your poll sucks - it doesn't offer a 'minimal fraud' option. Your knowledge of Medicare is clearly lacking. Your awareness of the average income of GPs versus specialists is naïve.
A study by the University of Sydney showed that GPs usually underbill (ie. subsidise primary care themselves), are fearful of audits, and have saved Medicare around $350 million in public money. But you just keep cutting down those poppies, okay?
Dude stop checking out what car your GP is driving and actually listen to what he/she suggests to do for your health.
Why would you care what car they drive anyway?
Personally I think migrants are the real issue. They come here from countries with very poor healthcare systems, and so end up overusing our Medicare system just because they can. Here's a conversation my wife had with a school parent: "I saw you at the GP today, is something wrong?"
"Ohh no, I'm fine. I was just feeling bored and wanted to talk to someone who speaks Mandarin".
Prescription mill "Medical" centres also don't help, because they encourage people to attend just for a sniffle. Once upon a time we'd only visit a doctor when we were actually sick!
But I suspect Medicare is just the tip of the iceberg. The entire country has become unsustainable and now relies on endless migration to survive. RIP Australia.
"I saw you at the GP today, is something wrong?"
A bit intrusive don’t you think? Perhaps the ‘school parent’ in this (probably made up) story (to stir up anti migrant sentiments likely with some unsavoury racial undertones), didn’t want to share her personal information with someone who then went home and gossiped about it their husband.
Most of us are migrants in this country, in either this generation or previous. Migrants pay taxes, and in some cases depending on their visa type receive less services. Like you say, the country relies on migration, sometimes migrants are propping up the people who’ve been here longer.
It was an abbreviated conversation because the tiny details were not relevant to the topic at hand. Since you're so keen to throw out the 'racist' card I won't bother explaining any further. And yes, everybody was a migrant once, but some of us were migrants well before Medicare and any healthcare systems at all (think "terra nullius") and well before the likes of you starting taking advantage of our hospitality.
I can’t see where I said racist. If the tiny details weren’t relevant and it was an abbreviated conversation why are you citing them to prove how migrants are ruining Australia etc. I’m both a healthcare provider (public) and tax payer, Australian born child of British migrants. I’m not sure whose hospitality I’m supposed be exploiting other than First Nations people, and that’s far more complex than the Medicare system and ‘the likes of me’ who are in fact part of the system paying for and delivering the health services.
I think the ‘speaking manderin’ part of the story (whether apocryphal or not) informs that some ppl go to the doctor when they probably don’t need to go to the doctor. And having bulk billing enables that more readily.
I didn’t view it as particularly racist and I’m as woke as they come.
The thing is I didn’t say racist. Sounds like a made up story and ‘migrants’ were targeted in the comment as ruining Australia and the language reference was obviously there to make that link. For sure people go to the doctor when they don’t need to - why link it to a rant about ‘migrants’.
Precisely this!
We need a law that bans employers from requesting a medical certificate for an absence of less than 3 days, the amount of wasted taxpayer money spent on having a GP sooth middle management would be in the tens of millions
I'd agree with that — especially considering you don't actually need to be sick to get a medical certificate!
Read my comment below.
So many immigrants dont even have Medicare for years until they become pr. (profanity) biased and racist idiot.
To start the conversation, please show the numbers… how much migrants contribute in taxes and how much they spend.
You are correct about Australia relying on migration to survive. It's been like that for a long time and it's impressive that some people still think this is the problem.
Some young parents come here on whatever visa enables them to get citizenship, where they then proceed to bring their entire family (parents from both sides of the family) who can then look after the kids while they go back to their country of origin to work and pay taxes in that country. Australian taxpayers then have to stump up for Medicare for their aging parents, and of course all expenses for the kids (school, healthcare and probably Centrelink too). No taxes paid in Australia at all. That's how much they contribute.
A small co-payment on all bulk billed appointments would help greatly. Even $5 or $10 would make a huge difference, because anything that is completely free is, in this day and age, going to be abused.
Unfortunately it's too late for that. Now that the issue of underfunded services is so severe and in the mainstream media that GPs can easily transition away from bulk billing. My local practice went from bulk billing to $50 out of pocket ($90 per visit), the waiting room is still full
You may well be right, though I think sensible reform to Medicare could turn things back around. A lot of my local medical centres are now bulk billing only on certain days (and never on weekends), and it's not perhaps the worst thing in the world, because at least on the non bulk billing days you can actually get to see a doctor without making an appointment 2 months in advance! In any event, the current trend towards no bulk billing at all is clearly not workable either, as it's already creating issues for Hospital ED's having to deal with non-emergencies. The Government really needs to wake up pronto!
I do work for several GPs and practices, in the same area, and the difference is like night and day. Similar sized practices, two doctors in their 50s, neither bulk bill. One drives a late model Porsche, the other drives a 20 year old MX5. Guess which one has been the subject of several investigations and has conditions placed upon them by the medical board? You know the answer.
The one with the MX5.
the one with the widebody bagged mx5
Not giving a statement for the service provided is one & running a whole medical system on the sacrifice of certain group of people is another. i.e) wage is fixed for medical jobs per state basis
I remember my GP used to bb my family members who weren’t there for the appointment just by asking how are they doing or so. I only found out after I logged to medicare and had a look at the transactions
I have been here in australia for 10 years, i paid over 100K in taxes as a non permanent resident and i dont even have medicare.
I want my money back.
That's a tiny amount to have paid over 10 years, way below average taxable income.
Tax pays for more than Medicare and you are probably contributing less in tax than is required to pay for everything you enjoy about Australia as a non-permanent resident.
@GordonD: Even worse!