Bitcoin over $30k USD again, proving naysayers wrong once again

Bitcoin has penetrated the $30k USD and appears to be holding, looking at the charts, it looks like the beginning of another bull market which can take its price to $100k, $200k and beyond. Goes without saying, but still this is my own opinion only, not financial advice. I'm just opining on the potential future price of BTC, it may or may not eventuate, I don't have control over the price of BTC. Do not rely on my posts and comments, its for educational/entertainment/lively debating purposes only.

I look at other investment classes, shares, bonds, property, its all doom and gloom. This is why I've decided against buying an investment property, I just do get where the attraction is from. I'm investment vehicle agnostic, I just want the best vehicle to make the most returns. Of course risk is very hard set, and some investment vehicles are much much more susceptible to regulation and other shocks. Take the property market for example, there is a range of regulation changes, which governments can implement which will cause it to break, look at China as a very good example, a rule change reining in how much debt developers can take on, rippled through the market and broke it.

Cryptocurrencies are not immune, however they are much much more resilient to these regulation changes. Of course, it will be affected by it if governments attempt to ban it or otherwise restrict it.

I find it very funny reading through https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-obituaries/, which shows a collection of what naysayers have said throughout the years and Bitcoin has proven them all wrong. Take a look at this from Dan Pena, he said this when Bitcoin dropped from $6k to $3k and he was doing a little victory rant, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX21rnDV-oo. Now Bitcoin has proven him wrong, and he has egg all over his face. Its so funny, everything he said about Bitcoin turned out to be wrong.

Personally, I thought Bitcoin was a scam from 2009 to 2013. I knew about its existence shortly after it was created and I read and understood the whitepaper, but didn't believe it would work. This changed in 2013, happy to be proven wrong and Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies have allowed me to accumulate a nice small fortune. I've done calculations on the alternatives, if I didn't buy Bitcoin and other cryptos from 2013, eg purchased an investment property, purchased apple shares etc, and none could have allowed me to amass my net wealth today. So with 20/20 hindsight, I'm glad I made the right decision back in 2013.

Has your perception about cryptocurrency changed over the years?

Update - adding in some common points people put in the comments.

Crypto is a zero sum game. For you to make money, someone needs to lose money.

This is not true, shares and property are not zero sum games, hence crypto which is another asset just like shares and property is not a zero sum game.
Here's a recent trade I did. I purchased 20.82 BTC late 2022 at $16688 USD per BTC, I sold it over the last few days at an average price of around $30100 USD per BTC because I want to purchase a property to live in soon.

In this scenario, who lost money?
1. The people who sold it to me late 2022
2. me or
3. the people who bought it off me a few days ago. BTC is $30184 USD at the time of writing.

Bitcoin is based on "thin air", its not backed by anything.

Bitcoin was created in the aftermath of the GFC, which is either forgotten or just not experienced by people. Bitcoin's value is based on its decentralised, censorship resistant and permissionless network, which is a god send for people in oppressive regimes with unstable fiat currencies. It is also based on trust, through its open sourced code.

Much of our economy is based on trust without the transparency. We trust that our RBA gives us accurate data on how much money it conjures up from "thin air". Unlike Bitcoin, we can't easily verify it, how do we know they haven't printed a trillion AUD?

Comments

      • +1

        My 'money' is on money.

  • I lost 15k thanks to digital surge

  • +3

    Mate i respect you. This is easily the most anti bitcoin forum in Australia and here you are, preaching and educating. I gave up talking about Bitcoin here, better things to do with my time than debating trolls. Enjoy the ride. Been on it since 2016/2017. It's going to be a good one.

    Guys like Zuckerberg, Elon, Tim Cook, Bill Miller, Stanley Drunkenmiller, Ray Dalio, Tim Draper and many more own Bitcoin. People in this day and age are still calling it a scam. Even Ivy league universities endowment funds owns bitcoin.

    https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/check-your-financial-pri… obligatory share.

    • +3

      Billionaires own Bitcoin? Knock me over with a feather.

      Ditto that a mag called Bitcoinmag, should fluff the prospective of the butter on it's bread.
      If dissent around crypto (in this case BTC) is trolling to you, then your on an island with rising sea levels all around you.
      But, it's good to see you are on first name terms with 'Elon'.

      • No problem.

    • I like a challenge and I like debate. Its only talking to skeptics can I strengthen my own views and also identify some incorrect views and change it too.

      I thought Bitcoin was a scam from 2009 to 2013, then I continue to do research, look into both sides and changed my view. Very glad I did.

  • It seems the false ads know no end>
    Here's a few billionaire stories>
    https://www.smh.com.au/cbd/this-is-a-scam-gina-rinehart-take…

  • +1

    $100k, $200k and beyond.

    Cool story. I like fairy tales and works of fiction

    • Time will tell my friend.

      I have received the same response when I said Bitcoin will be $10k+ USD one day back in 2013 when it was only $1k USD. Everyone I said this to laughed and said I was delusional, now I laugh at them. They are heavily in debt from property investing lmao.

      • +1

        You need better friends and family if they constantly call you delusional and laugh at you. The fact you laugh back at them at their suffering indicates a very toxic relationship you have with friends and family.

        I assume it’s not strangers you are talking to and laughing at because you seem to know intimate details of their financial situation and strangers don’t usually share that with randoms on the street.

        • You need better friends and family if they constantly call you delusional and laugh at you

          This was back in 2013/2014, not anymore lmao. They don't call me delusional nor laugh at me anymore.

          The fact you laugh back at them at their suffering indicates a very toxic relationship you have with friends and family.

          Its all in good fun and in jest. I doubt they actually think I'm delusional. I've already done my victory lap in 2017, anything else now is just the cherry on top.

          They ain't suffering the slightest, my family invested in property way before 2013, my friends invested in 2013 or around there abouts, they aren't struggling. Its just the difference of making $1-3 million versus $20-50 million. Both are good, one is better than the other though.

          I assume it’s not strangers you are talking to and laughing at because you seem to know intimate details of their financial situation and strangers don’t usually share that with randoms on the street.

          The only strangers I talk to are people on OzB, I don't talk about crypto with the guy next to me on the train or on the street like those religious preachers.

          • @techlead: You just said they are heavily in debt before and now you are saying they are making $1-3m. Are you saying they are have a huge debt but they are making $1-3m on top of the debt? Is that $1-3m an annual figure after payment of the interest payments on the debt? I don’t understand your story

            • @illusion99: Most people are not in negative equity, which means they still have some kind of value in their property portfolios.

              My friends have around $1 - $3 mil of equity in their property portfolios, which means if they were to sell everything, they'd get that less fees and taxes of course. If they want to keep their portfolio, they'd need to service that debt and pay all other expenses. They've all got multiple investment properties.

              • @techlead: So why are you saying they are heavily on debt like it’s a bad thing in your original comment? You even said they are heavy in debt lmao. So you laughed at them. You are laughing at friends for not being as successful as you? Great friend. I know you said it was in jest but I don’t go laughing at my friends who have less money than me even in jest. I feel sorry for the people in your life

                Even worst you are laughing at them on the internet

                • -1

                  @illusion99: With the questions are you asking, it appears you are not a property owner or don't know how property investing or debt works.

                  Let's start with the basics, debt, also known as leverage is a double edged sword, it is a multiplier of gains AND losses. Whenever you use debt to purchase an asset, or have a larger position than with just cash, you run the risk of losing everything without the asset going down to $0 valuation.

                  Take share trading for example, let's say you have $1000. You can buy $1000 worth of shares and you wouldn't lose all your money unless the price of the share you purchase goes to $0, think Leighman bros, Credit Suisse (you'd get cents on the dollar), Bear sterns etc. Let's say you use 75% leverage to purchase your share position, so $1000 (your own money) and $4000 (debt) to buy $5000 worth of shares. It doesn't take those shares going to $0 before your position is liquidated, once your losses gets close to $1000, you will be margin called, if you don't put in more money, the broker will forcible sell your shares, closing your position, leaving you with nothin. Let's say the share you bought is $100, if that share falls to $80, you'd be wiped out, your position would be closed (brokers will have their own trigger levels, usually just before maybe at say $86 they will call you to put in more money, if you don't, they force sell at $82 to cover themselves)

                  Likewise, when you purchase a property, most people use debt, some (very few) will buy it outright, I'm not talking about those people, I'd say the vast majority of people who invest in property have a mortgage, so the standard would be 20% deposit (this is your equity) and 80% debt.

                  So let's say in March 2022 you purchase a property priced at the median level for $1,403,154, you would have paid 20% deposit of $280630.8 the rest is in debt. To me, you'd be "heavily in debt". Most people with property by definition would be heavily in debt, doesn't mean they have a net wealth of $0, if they sold those properties.

                  I didn't purchase my crypto portfolio with debt, the only way for me to lose everything is for every token I hold to go to $0 and the max I can lose is 100%, therefore compared to my friends, they are "heavily in debt" compared to me. That's what I mean by that.

                  Due to leverage being a double edged sword, with property, you can potentially lose more than 100% of your money, how can that happen? When you go into negative equity, this is when the value of your asset falls so much that your equity stake is wiped to 0% and beyond. For example, if that property which you bought for $1.4 mil halves in value to $700k, then your equity of $280630.80 is now wiped out and the bank owns more than 100% of your property. This is the down side of debt. If I purchased $280630.80 worth of Bitcoin (no debt), then Bitcoin would have to go to $0 before I lose all my money and the MAXIMUM I can lose is 100% of my money, but this is not the case with property.

                  I know its abit hard to fathom, even my property investing friends either don't want to consider this scenario or believes it will never happen, because they think property prices will only go up and all their life property prices HAS been going up and interest rates decreasing. Same as me, I've never experience an interest rate rise in my investing career apart from these latest ones. When the RBA said they will increase rates for the first time in 2024, I told my property investing friends don't believe the RBA, reality will slap sense into them and force their hand and when they do increase, its going to be aggressive. They laughed at me and dismissed it, some even purchased more property after the RBA said that, now we know who's right. :) I'm not saying property in Australia will drop by 50%, just saying it can, and it has in other part of the world. Sydney/Melbourne property prices has fallen from a year ago, this is an undeniable fact and you can see by some comments from others in this thread, they dismiss this easily verifiable fact. The million/billion dollar question now is, how it found a bottom or will it keep dropping. I think so, by how much, I don't know.

                  Australia wasn't really affected by the GFC, so that has lured people into a false sense of security, read up on what happened to the property market in the US, especially Detroit, some areas are still abandoned to this day, entire neighborhoods. Property values more than halved. Look at the property market in Japan, of course the market is different, it has different dynamics, like different population growth, immigration etc etc, but it shows you it is not impossible that property prices can fall. It just seems like alot of people in Australia are kidding themselves thinking property can never fall, there will also be demand, if the price falls, no one will sell, therefore that will put a floor in the price. I know all the talking points because I try to see things from their perspective. I don't think property price in Sydney has bottomed, I think there's still a long way to fall as inflation is still not under control and when push comes to shove, the RBA will jack up the rates to control inflation which is their primary purpose.

                  I have a great relationship with my friends, its a testament to how strong our bonds are, its never personal, we stick to the facts and there's a moderate amount of gloating for whoever is right. If they are really struggling I wouldn't hesitate to assist them financially. As I said before, they don't need any financial assistance from me, they are doing quite well, I'm just doing better. I don't feel sorry for them, there's no need to, they aren't on struggle street.

                  • @techlead: Too long didn’t bother reading

                    • -1

                      @illusion99: You might learn a thing of two

                      • @techlead: Not from you who says LMAO when telling the world your friends are heavily in debt and implying how lame they are

                        • -1

                          @illusion99: Facts remain the same no matter who the messenger is.

                          By design, nearly all property investors are "heavily in debt" as I explained in my long post as not many people would be buying property with cash (there could be some, but very few in number I'm sure).

                          I never said they are lame, that's your interpretation.

                          • @techlead: Why did you say LMAO when you told everyone your friends are in debt. Explain how it’s so funny. I’m not a comedian so please explain why it’s funny that someone is in debt.

                            P.S I ended up reading your long post and you posted 5 comments but none of them explained why you thought it so funny that your friends are in debt

                            • -1

                              @illusion99: Its funny to me because it makes no sense.

                              They are going heavily into debt for an asset that historically don't go up much and if it did, it would cause societal issues, eg HK is a perfect example, look at these cage rooms people are forced to rent due to the insane gambling/speculation taking place in their property market.

                              Compare the returns of property and Bitcoin over the last 10 years, its not even close, not even the same universe.

                              You are focusing too much on the laughing part, when I have these discussions with my friends, we laugh and drink together and have a great time. There's nothing else apart from that to it, I'm not ridiculing them, I'm laughing because I don't understand it and reality has proven me correct.

                              • @techlead: Therefore you are saying your friends are idiots who have no sense. Great person you are telling the internet your friends have no sense. Reality has proven you correct therefore your friends are delusional

                                • -1

                                  @illusion99: When it comes to their decision to invest in property with so much debt, yea, doesn't make sense to me.

                                  I'm going to be in debt soon to purchase a property to live in. Hopefully not too much, unfortunately banks don't like to lend on a low leverage because they don't make much money from the interest. I'm just going to borrow at their minimum leverage, so in comparison I will not be as heavily indebted as my friends.

                                  Great person you are telling the internet your friends have no sense

                                  I don't see any issue with this. I've shown them this thread, they had a great laugh. I didn't name or dox any of them, so not sure what the issue is.

                                  • @techlead: Who would want to be friends with you knowing what you think of them. And not just thinking of them but also telling everyone in the internet they don’t have any financial sense. You are like the person, I can’t be racist because I have black/Asian/whatever ethnicity friends and then proceed to be full on racist

                                    • @illusion99: Funny thing to focus on, when I've debunked everything else you've been saying.

                                      Leave my relationship with my friends to me, you don't need to worry about that.

                                      • @techlead: Debunk what? All I did was ask you questions lol. I did not give any opinion on your investment strategy or what asset class is better. So what exactly did you debunk?

                                        I think you are replying to imaginary comments that do not exist.

                                      • @techlead: Could you do the same leveraged comparison for someone that bought 1.4mil worth of bitcoin at the peak price with 20% deposit with their position with bitcoin at the bottom.

                                        That would be a fair comparison for the example you are using since you use 20% deposit for the house at high Vs low.

                                        • @fourofjacks:

                                          Could you do the same leveraged comparison for someone that bought 1.4mil worth of bitcoin at the peak price with 20% deposit with their position with bitcoin at the bottom.

                                          No, because I think anyone buying crypto with leverage is stupid. Read my AMA, https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/613895, I outlined when I made this mistake and how much I lost. I'm very upfront with my mistakes. Crypto is volatile, leverage and volatility equals liquidation.

                                          That would be a fair comparison for the example you are using since you use 20% deposit for the house at high Vs low.

                                          Not a fair comparison. A fair comparison would be to compare the returns of property without debt to spot Bitcoin. The returns for property would be even more dismal. When doing comparisons, you usually reduce down to the least risky way to buy and hold an asset for a fair comparison.

                                          Otherwise, why not consider the 95% LVR for First home owners scheme and then use a similar 95% leverage for Bitcoin, I'm sure due to the volatility, that position would be liquidated.

                                          You can even be more absurd and go, if you use 100X leverage for Bitcoin, there's probably a 100% chance of getting liquidated hence Bitcoin is a bad asset.

                                          • @techlead: Agree leveraging to buy crypto is not a good idea. But if you don't use a fair comparison then it's also not useful.

                                            The 95% LVR on both with liquidation is fair. What's the position of both if this happened high vs low.

                                            The alternative if you don't want to compare leverage, is don't leverage either at high Vs low.

                                            • @fourofjacks: The standard practice is to reduce the risk for comparison. So if you want to compare returns of property and crypto, then compare them without leverage.

                                              Dialing up the risk for comparison doesn't make sense because its not going to be suitable for volatile assets like crypto, so the comparison is kinda meaningless.

                                              The 95% LVR on both with liquidation is fair. What's the position of both if this happened high vs low.

                                              Well, it would depend on the property, but if someone bought with 95% LVR during the peak, they are most likely in negative equity now, and for Bitcoin, probably liquidated.

                                              • @techlead: Ok, so let's compare losses without leverage, high Vs low.

                                                Or compare negative equity Vs negative equity. Or liquidated Vs liquidated.

                                                Is there any scenario where you are comparing like for like?

                                                Do you think it is meaningful to compare losses using leverage for one Vs losses for another without leverage?

                                                • @fourofjacks: I know what you are getting at. Its a little hard to compare like for like for two very different assets.

                                                  Property is not as volatile as Bitcoin, it has a higher barrier to entry and has risks with debt (interest rates, negative equity etc).

                                                  Bitcoin (Spot) is volatile, but has asymmetric returns, eg going up 10000%. This wouldn't be possible with property, but of course, its crashes big as mentioned before about its volatility.

                                                  Both assets have government/sovereign risk. But one is more suspectable (property) than the other.

                                                  So if I was to compare property (outright) with Bitcoin (spot), it would be the drawdown would be less for property, but also, the gains would be dismal compared to Bitcoin. Also, it would be a little irrelevant as it is impossible for the vast majority of people to buy property outright.

                                                  Hence, I compare property levered compared to Bitcoin (spot), due to the way most people invest into these assets. Eg, what can someone do with $250k AUD? In order to purchase property, debt is required, I'm not sure if there are any property in Sydney for $250k, maybe a shack out West, dunno lol.

                                                  • +1

                                                    @techlead: You are skewing examples to bias your view. Your perceived risk with government / Sovereign is just your view. Anyone can simply say the risk is the other way.

                                                    Another way to consider is if you want to compare leverage losses, you also needs to consider leveraging gains in property. IE Gains when going up with 20% deposit.

                                                    10000% with property? Easy when the market is going up using your method leverage with 0% deposit home loan. I'm not saying this is valid, I'm just pointing out flaws / bias in your example

                                                    • @fourofjacks: That's a very fair point regarding the leverage gains calculation, upvoted you. Let's do the analysis.

                                                      With sovereign risk, its very simple, China tried to banned Bitcoin, it lives and continues to be transacted in China albeit in much smaller volumes and Bitcoin itself has survived. Property on the other hand, is broken in China, but the three red lines and which demonstrates how sensitive property is to the stroke of the pen by the government. This applies to other countries too, look at all the changes in NZ and Canada with a stroke of a pen around property ownership.

                                                      According to this article, https://propertyupdate.com.au/property-investment-sydney/, in the graph which shows 30 years of median house prices in Sydney from July 1992 to July 2022. At around July 2012, the median house price in Sydney was $600k (maybe a bit more, but let's be generous and say its $600k). So from July 2012 to March 2023, the median house price in Sydney went from $600k to $1,230,581, so let's work out the leveraged gain.

                                                      Let's say someone purchased the median property in July 2012 for $600k, $120k deposit, disregard stamp duty as a sunk cost. Borrowing $480k. Disregarding all other costs, such as interest, council fees, maintenance and loan repayments, the equity part of property for this person has jumped from $120k to $750,581 a gain of $630,581, 425.484% taking leverage into account.

                                                      This is a simple example I know, I can't be bothered using Excel to model the loan repayments and calculate the council fees etc, but I think my assumptions above gives a very optimistic calculation of the profits as I'm disregarding alot of the costs, hence I think the actual gain is lower than what I have above.

                                                      So 425.484% leveraged gains, that's a far cry from the Bitcoin price July 2012 ($9.10 USD) to March 2023 ($23,554.94, very generous here, didn't include the recent pump) which is a gain of 258,745.5%, unleveraged as well.

                                                      425.484% v 258,745.5% all pre-tax gains, not even close, not even in the same universe.

                                                      Its unlikely that even if we say the property gains are CGT exempt and the Bitcoin gains gets taxed at the highest CGT rate but with the 50% discount, that it would make much of a difference.

                                                      • @techlead: I thought it should be obvious now it's not a fair or useful comparison, but ok - let's do 0% deposit home loan in Syd 2012 (less or no more risk than crypto)

                                                        1c deposit to make it easier to calc. Let's factor in fees etc, so we need to factor in rental returns. How many % per week rental returns from 1c leveraged deposit?

                                                        Now this is being generous with 1c deposit, since 0% and even negative equity loans were available.

                                                        Median house price, we should consider median price of crypto - is there more than half that haven't failed? Otherwise Going to be ugly comparison.

                                                        • @fourofjacks: Where can I purchase a property with a 1c deposit, you are just making things up.

                                                          Well, that's the beauty of Bitcoin (notice I said Bitcoin), there's a market for it 24/7, its market price is known every second of the day, hence there is no need to use a median house price. Residential properties on the other hand, don't have a 24/7 market and its not as liquid, hence you'd need to aggregate sales data to start to analyze it. Its pretty common practice.

                                                          we should consider median price of crypto

                                                          Those exist, there are crypto index tokens which represents top X coins by market cap or some even broken up by segments of crypto, eg DEX coins, Meta coins etc etc. I agree, those haven't done well, I have never bought any, so if you want to compare to that, then yea ok, you are probably right, property is better compared to those. You can also compare property to Credit Suisse, we know which has done better. I'm comparing property to Bitcoin. I haven't done it for ETH, but I'm pretty sure ETH outperformed property as well.

                                                          Not sure what your point is.

                                                          • @techlead: Search no deposit home loans. It's not new.

                                                            You are considering median house price Vs the top performing crypto. Again to be fair median Vs median or top performing property Vs top performing crypto.

                                                            I'm guessing median crypto is not worth much. But you can correct me if this isn't correct. I was thinking over half of crypto coins are failed / worthless.

  • Is this you ?

    • No, I have no connections with him at all.

  • +7

    These crypto posts are always written like the OP is making a hard sell and trying so hard to seem a little unbiased.

    OP prepping his bags for a pump n dump on us, again.

    • -1

      Not hard selling anything, just starting a debate about crypto and comparing it to other more traditional asset classes.

      I don't want anyone to buy anything

      • I'm not hard selling anything, just starting a debate about tulips and comparing tulips to other more traditonal asset classes.

        I don't want anyone to buy any tulips.

        I've done very well buying and selling tulips each tulip bubble.

        smooth

        • haha, this has been debunked. Bitcoin is nothing like tulips, there's no comparison.

  • +2

    Hey guys,

    Allow me to illustrate some examples;

    Go to the streets, or the bloody internet. Find 1 person willing to let you in on the next best Stock/Share to purchase at free advice (for you to make money on).
    Contact a financial advisor, ask him what shares should you invest in based on the some announcement that the stock will rally soon, for free ofcourse.
    Both examples you'll find none, you may be punched in the latter.

    Now switch over to Bitcoin/ETH/etc.
    You will find Thousands, and thousands of people, at work, internet (this guy), twitter, ALL telling you… Hurry, buy BTC it's going to rally!
    You will find comments such as "BTC is gonna hit $70K by end of year, get in now!!" or I made $60K last year on ETH, its going to hit 100K

    So I ask you all, given the above examples, can you put 2 and 2 together and figure out the concept? Do you understand?

    • That is the reason I have no doubt that some of the bigger influencer's will spike a target though their lovely sheep . It is unlikely to be BTC ( too bloody big nowadays) .
      They are good at their job of making their sheep make them rich :)
      It is a matter of what hehe .

    • +1

      Where do you live that a financial advisor will punch you for asking for stock tips?!?

      • Lmao, you cracked me up with that

        I think they will punch you because you want free stock tips haha

    • -1

      Let me show you these examples, I'm constantly getting bombarded by the mainstream media about how great property investing in.

      can you put 2 and 2 together and figure out the concept? Do you understand?

      https://www.news.com.au/finance/real-estate/buying/man-with-….
      https://www.smartpropertyinvestment.com.au/buying/16079-inve…
      https://www.smh.com.au/money/chasing-the-dream-of-passive-in…

      Just to list a few, there are many many more examples.

      • +1

        2/3 of your links are the same story. Here's what a shrewd investor with a 'work ethic' looks like. (He doesn't appear to be bagging family and friends, though. Funny that)

        https://www.news.com.au/finance/money/investing/just-like-a-…

        How are you getting "bombarded" by th MSM? While actively looking for positive crypto stories? Spam? Or some anon snake oiler clagging up your favourite forum?

    • Contact a financial advisor asking for free tips via a call, they can't punch you that way haha

  • +1

    OP you're getting a lot of negative responses, but just ignore the haters!

    I just want to say congratulations on your wise investment in Bitcoin, and my sincere thanks for paying CGT so my humble life can be improved in the future.

    • +2

      I too thank OP for his funds in paving over the many potholes near where I live

      • I'm happy to pay taxes, because it means I have profits.

        • Meh.
          You'd be the first millionaire tax payer who is happy to pay- instead of \dodge/ - tax, then.
          Amazing how magnanimous anonymity makes ppl appear,innit?

          • @Protractor: I don't think so, Buffett appears pretty outraged that his effective tax rate is less than his secretary's.

            • +1

              @techlead: Easy to say. I reckon I could fit all the people who believe you in a standard phone box and still fit a full bale of wool in there with them

  • +7

    This thread is basically a gambling ad.

  • +1

    And right on cue, you do your usual 'look over there' in the cherry tree move.
    You're a black & gold propagandist opportunist. What's more NEVER proven to be worth a bass razoo.
    The spin has driven away more possible BTC investors on the fence, so that's a positive.
    Gunna,gunna,gunna.

    • We do constant comparisons in life, whether it be who we choose as a partner and what we buy. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with comparing, and applying your logic to other things. What's good for the goose and also good for the gander.

      If your argument doesn't stand up to whataboutism, then it ain't very strong to begin with. One of the foundations of our justice system is whataboutism, otherwise known as jurisprudence. Cases are argued in front of the court and are bolstered by mentioned of other similar cases which have had a ruling favorable to one side or another.

      So as I said before, if I use your same logic to apply somewhere else and it doesn't fit your worldview, then there's something wrong with your perspective. I presume you don't think property investing is gambling?

      • +2

        It is a form of gambling. But the RE industry is not here to "pump up the volume".

        I don't think you are in any position to play the 'whataboutism 'card

        • Its 100% gambling.

          Yes there are success stories of BTC millionaires that retired on a Yacht with BTC logo engraved on the hull.
          But there are also similar millionaires who won the Lotto, or Gambled.

          BTC's movement is volatile and largely dependant on Pumps (like this post), unlike Shares which increase with a company's; R&D, Cash Flow, Debt, Innovation, Services, Contracts and offerings - BTC has no real research. People just sit and wait out the next peak to mass sell.

          Look at Doge Coin FFS

          • @frostman: The share market is largely manipulated garbage too, but there are extra steps to manipulate stock prices, and more insider trading to take advantage of it. At least at the center of stocks is a small nugget of real intrinsic value from a company, whereas as you point out, crypto has exactly zero utility (except perhaps monero for anonymity, possibly?)

  • It's lovely to know that so many people care so much about other peoples money enough to tell them how much of a scam BTC is.

    • -1

      Crypto exists by way of not worrying about other ppls money,(in any form).
      Never seen so many ppl willing to buy a total strangers IOU collection

    • It's a natural response to call out scams when scammers try and pump and dump their scams every 2 years.

  • One bitcoin is now worth $45,249.51 Australian dollars.

    • Selling like hotcakes?

    • -2

      That's a inflated figure which is baseless.
      It's a virtual currency not far of from the failed, NFTs.
      Reason why NFTs failed was because the celebrities didn't market it.
      BTC on the other hand, is marketed by many celebrities.

      So you're basically buying digital influence.

      • -3

        That's a inflated figure which is baseless.

        That's a figure from one of the most decentralised markets of any asset class, how can it be inflated? Do you even know how markets operate?

        The ASX is a centralized exchange for shares listed on there, it only trades on that exchange, while for Bitcoin there are many multiple exchanges not linked to each other determining the price. Whatever the price of Bitcoin is, is the real market value of Bitcoin.

        NFTs are different to Bitcoin, don't conflate the two.

        Reason why NFTs failed was because the celebrities didn't market it.

        Probably true, no hype, people lost interest, that's how it is for art. If a painter falls out of favour with the public, his/her paintings would decrease in value. NFTs are just digital art, it would behave the same.

        BTC on the other hand, is marketed by many celebrities.

        BTC derives its value by being a reliable, decentralized, censorship resistant and permissionless network. Marketing by celebrities help, but its not a big factor.

        • Whatever the price of Bitcoin is, is the real market value of Bitcoin.

          Wrong.

          Get Elon Musk to tweet something like #BTC and watch the value sky rocket.

          Get the CEO of BHP Billiton to tweet #BHP or #GoBHP and you'll barely see movement

  • https://www.smh.com.au/business/banking-and-finance/kris-rid…
    Im sure all the people who invested here are sleeping soundly knowing they have invested in a regulated market. Surely regulation means they are safe, surely.

    • Credit Suisse investors must also be sleeping very soundly knowing their investment is safe in a regulated market as well. :)

  • its too unstable to be a reliable currency. If it's not a currency what is it?

    • -1

      I agree, its not a currency. Its an asset, digital gold as far as Bitcoin is concerned. Other blockchains serve different purposes, like ETH as a smart contract platform.

      • An asset without any inherent value is a poor asset.

        • An asset without any inherent value is a poor asset.

          Possibly, without knowing other information, I'd agree with you.

          Bitcoin is not an asset without any inherent value though, it has inherent value and its network is useful for many people in the world.

    • +1

      Let's see if the market agrees with you :)

      If true, I should have some money left over from my property purchase to buy the dip.

  • Binance BNB has now risen to 516.21 AUD and has an excellent reputation worldwide.

    Rumour has it - it’s more stable than bitcoin and will be the future of cryptocurrency

  • Techlead, What is your opinion on XRP? It seems to be popular in the aussie market.

  • Now its less than 30k. Naysayers were correct? What say you?

    • +1

      I hope he gets burnt to a frazzle.(That's if he even has a single BTC)
      The title to this thread is an arrogant conclusion, based on a nanosecond in time. His push marketing ,by stealth,and spurious claims have continued to stretch the boundaries of reality as each thread arrives.

      BTW When 99% of ppl have a collective and justified suspicion of something it is not naysaying, it's just 'common' sense.Literally.

      • Surely Techy has got some BTC . Maybe $30 from a OZB freebie deal .
        But it will always be scary holding it as he will never says if someone get your keys kiss it all goodbye and no regulators can get it back for you .
        As I say the real deal guys are silent ghosts and stay away from the spotlight . Like when you turn the light on the cock roaches disappear.

      • Crypto has enabled me to amass wealth I couldn't have otherwise accumulated via shares and/or property.

        BTW When 99% of ppl have a collective and justified suspicion of something it is not naysaying

        Where did you get 99% from? I don't think it was 99% back in 2013, it was probably 99% from 2009-2011.

        • "Crypto has enabled me to amass wealth I couldn't have otherwise accumulated via shares and/or property."
          Yeah,nah. You don't know that for two reasons.
          (1) You went crypto.
          (2) It's still in crypto format

          Don't get 'amassed wealth' confused with amassed pseudo wealth. You have a mirage.

          I'm happy for you to reject the 99% number. No skin off my nose. What I know is, you are marketing to either boost your faux fortune, or have nada BTC. The bulk of the global community wouldn't touch BTC with a ten foot pole.

          "If it sounds too good to be true…etc ….." has proven to be a very successful safety net.

          • @Protractor:

            (2) It's still in crypto format

            $2.5 mil AUD is no longer in crypto format. It will be converted to a property format soon.

            You have a mirage

            The $2.5 mil AUD sitting in my account is no mirage, nor the BTC sitting on the blockchain which I have the private keys to and can convert into AUD in a few hours.

            you are marketing to either boost your faux fortune, or have nada BTC

            If I was "marketing", I wouldn't be doing it on a bargains forum lmao. I like the discussion, I knew Ozb is anti-crypto, so it would be great to see if my view holds up, so what the skeptics are saying, instead of being a circle jerk on Twitter or Reddit.

    • Well, the naysayers are saying $10k, $5k, $0 BTC

      • Oh well, back above 30k now lol

    • My NO Script no like your link.

    • Haha, I wish.

      I've got some $10k, $5, and $3k BTC buy orders, I wonder if they will ever get filled. I hope so….

      • At least it would have some good use of offsetting capital gains .
        And I must admit there is some real good plays in that field .

        • Its not going to offset anything if I don't sell. I ain't selling BTC at $10k.

          • @techlead: Well the smart boys are diversified to take advantage of that situation . Which has already happened in this space .

  • +2

    Updated title time?
    Bitcoin under $30k USD again, proving naysayers right once again……

    • Naysayers are correct when Bitcoin goes to $10k and below and go to $0. Afterall, "its a ponzi" isn't it? All Ponzis go to zero.

      • +1

        Nup, if breaking $30k resistance was a 'proved wrong' indicator, receding under it is clearly a 'proved right' indicator.
        You set the price boundary, as you werent shouting from the rooftops for the last year when its been under $30k

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