How Does an Employee Validate or Verify if a Medical Certificate Is Authentic or Effective?

plastererJazz on 03/07/2023 - 10:58
Last edited 05/07/2023 - 09:40

Greeting everyone

What's up with online medical certificate service? could they replace regular GP service given the rising gap fee?

How legit those services are and how should we choose the appropriate one?

How does an employee validate or verify if a medical certificate is authentic or effective?

Based on Fairwork, https://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/sick-and-carers-leave/paid…

We also don’t consider it reasonable for an employer to contact the employee’s doctor for further information.

As far as I know, it was a piece of paper we get from the printer in the doctor's office and I doubt there is a state-wide authentication service to check these papers.

Regard

Education & Work

Comments

  • smpantsonfire on 04/07/2023 - 16:21

    8 years at current job. 73 days sick leave remaining.

    If they ask me for a medical certificate, I would know they are trying to get rid of me.

    OP what you’ve described is stock standard, and as people mentioned, it’s main use is performance management.

    • hasher22 on 04/07/2023 - 17:17

      How does one accrue sick leave? Company policy?

      I thought sick/personal leave resets per year

      • Cyphar on 05/07/2023 - 07:45

        Sick leave accrues but it isn’t paid out like annual leave.

      • timhn on 05/07/2023 - 07:46

        Yes, it's rollover to next year. It's in Workplace laws. If not, i would imagine people will call sick at near end if year to clear out their entitlement.

        • [Deactivated] on 05/07/2023 - 20:15

          Annual leave rolls over. Sick leave does not. Some workplaces roll over sick leave as part of the EBA, but it's not in the base awards

          • xuqi on 05/07/2023 - 23:51

            @[Deactivated]: I've never been covered under any award/s, but sick days roll over.

            • [Deactivated] on 06/07/2023 - 13:26
              +1

              @xuqi: When I worked in retail sick leave would get wiped every year, I (and the employees I managed) would get strictly 10 days per year, regardless if they were full time or part time. This occurred across multiple workplaces.

              Annual leave was calculated as a proportion of weekly hours worked and accumulated over time.

  • zanzir on 04/07/2023 - 16:38

    can i get a med cert for 5 days of sickness?

    • chocolatelover on 04/07/2023 - 17:25

      why are you asking this on a forum???

      • zanzir on 05/07/2023 - 00:19

        lol

        • timhn on 05/07/2023 - 07:48
          +1

          Sure can. Just send that to me, I'll approve that.

  • hasher22 on 04/07/2023 - 17:15
    +1

    I had the same policy last 2 companies I worked for: "Basically what it says is that sick leave longer than one day or falls on Monday or Friday will need a medical certificate otherwise will be processed as unpaid leave."

    Good news, I'm rarely sick.
    Bad news when I'm sick, I am damn sick, I am off for 4 days or more but getting a doctors cert is damn hard cause I am literally dying in bed.
    Good news, my bosses have accepted certs and paid all sick days even if I get a certificate from day 2 or 3 onwards.

    It really depends on the company but from friends and family members, most of what I heard they don't micromanage sick leave. But I wouldn't be surprised if some businesses do.

    • gromit on 05/07/2023 - 11:24

      It often depends a lot on the employee too, someone with a good record that doesn't have a history of always being sick on a monday or chewing up all their sick leave around holidays they tend to be more than willing to take that person at their word. I have never provided a cert despite it being written in the policy where I work, even when I had nearly 2 weeks sick leave once (which I had a cert for but when I asked they just said don't worry about it). I know others that they do demand them of though as they mysteriously always seem to get very ill on a monday.

  • MantistobogganMD on 04/07/2023 - 17:55

    i had an employer call my doctor to verify my certificate once lol the doctor called me to tell me he wouldn't provide any details. as per law….

    good ol centrecom

    my current employer just has a standard you can have 3 sick days a year without a medical certificate or stat-deck

    • [Deactivated] on 04/07/2023 - 17:58

      i had an employer call my doctor to verify my certificate

      Are you allowed to be your own Dr if you're also a Dr?

      • MantistobogganMD on 04/07/2023 - 18:02

        im also a pilot

        • [Deactivated] on 04/07/2023 - 18:05

          …. of hot air …..balloons?

  • us3rnam3tak3n on 04/07/2023 - 18:15

    I'm a contractor, so I only get paid for the hours worked. The rate is adjusted accordingly and the result is nobody wants to take sick leave. The unintended consequence is that many people work through their illness and spread it to others. Though this has improved since covid brought WFH to the masses.

  • Taliban on 04/07/2023 - 18:21
    +1

    Current workplace got rid of the notion of 'sick' leave. Now its been rebranded as personal leave, so one can take ot for mental health, time off, take a break or actual sick day off

  • nikey2k27 on 04/07/2023 - 18:38

    if brake your foot on sunday and have work on Monday tell them they be happy if donot make work cover clam
    .

  • qaz182 on 04/07/2023 - 18:41

    Just sign a statdec declaring you were unwell.

    This also works with mask mandates.

  • conza on 04/07/2023 - 18:52
    +1

    So many GP offices allow for phone appointments, especially for existing patients, further, you should be able to call a GP on a Tuesday, ask for a certificate for 'yesterday' then provide the certificate on the Wednesday to your employer.

    It's about honesty and trust. If you have a good relationship with your direct manager, and give them notice or when notice isn't possible, be completely honest 'Need to take a break', unless they're a real prick, most of the time they'll understand.

    It's for people who abuse this policy that the rules need to exist, as always with any rule.

  • SavingBux on 04/07/2023 - 19:14
    -1

    A medical certificate can only legally certify from the date of initial presentation of a problem to that doctor / clinic.
    eg sprained ankle on Saturday, didn't work Monday, consulted doctor on Tuesday.
    Certificate can only state unfit for work from Tuesday.

    However;
    1. A significant number of doctors don't know this/don't care about this and backdate the certificate part (which exposes them to a complaint from the employer to AHPRA - this HAS happened in the past and there is no defense to this as the certificate is illegal).
    2. It is legitimate as previously stated for the certificate to say unfit from Tuesday, but "based on the patient's symptoms and signs today (Tuesday), it is reasonable to accept that they were also unfit for work from Saturday". This is not certifying that they were unfit from Saturday, just restating what the patient is saying.
    3. It is also legitimate to see the Dr on Saturday, not ask for a certificate, skip work Monday and then ask on Tuesday for a certificate from the Saturday. This would be legal, but it is prudent for the doctor to write something like "this patient was first seen for this problem on Saturday", even though the issue date of the certificate is Tuesday.
    4. Workplaces CANNOT call the doctor to query the certificate without formal permission from the patient. It would be exceedingly rare for a doctor to fall for this trick and breach confidentiality. The police try this on all the time, trying to get information without consent.

    WorkCover certificates cover this point in the small print you sign when handing in the certificate: this gives WorkCover permission to contact the doctor about the certificate.

    • yoquierotaco on 04/07/2023 - 20:57

      from my understanding a WorkCover certificates (aka certificate of capacity or a work capacity certificate) is not the same as a medical certificate ref

      Good point about "backdating." From the Medical Council NSW, it seems you just need 1) the date the certificate was issued, and 2) the period during which the practitioner believes the patient would have been unfit for work. So not sure if you need to use the exact phrase in your point #2 (at least for NSW).

  • mokorusmania on 04/07/2023 - 19:30

    My workplace doesnt have sick leave anymore, replaced by personal leave. I asked my colleagues no one seem to be sure about the sick leave policy. They cant be never take sick leave can they.

    • randome on 04/07/2023 - 20:25
      +3

      There is actually no specific "sick leave", its all covered by "Personal Leave" and can be used for more things then you being personally sick.

      For example it can also be used if your dependent is sick and you need to care for them, family emergencies, the death or life-threatening illness or injury of close family members.

  • Scantu on 04/07/2023 - 21:43
    +2

    You can do a stat dec instead of a medical certificate

    • timhn on 05/07/2023 - 07:51

      Yes, i have advised my staff this for minor sickies since it's very costly for them to see a Dr (some on business visa so cant access to Medicare).

      • Scantu on 05/07/2023 - 23:09

        That's great, I agree and you can't even deduct those costs from your income as they are private expenses - despite the fact you'd never get a med certificate for anything other than employment!

  • msimpatient on 04/07/2023 - 22:24

    Is it sick leave or personal leave?

    Quite often the actual EBA states something along the lines of needing reasonable evidence to support the reason you couldn't work. Which also includes a stat dec.

  • kaleidoscope on 04/07/2023 - 22:53

    Basically what it says is that sick leave longer than one day or falls on Monday or Friday will need a medical certificate otherwise will be processed as unpaid leave.

    Sounds 100% fair and how its been forever on most places.

    what if I injured my ankle on Sunday, or just severe migraine on Monday morning and I'm unable to attend GP to get a medical certificate? Or there is simply no GP appointment available nearby on the day calling sick?

    If you have medical emergency you can simply attend emergency or get online consultation and they'll provide a cert. If office does not accept those you can get a regular consultation on the next day or after and get a medical cert for the date(s) you were not able to attend work (i've done that in past and my gps has absolutely no problem at all with it).

    Leave policy depends on where you work and what you describe used to be with most employers I've worked for and had no trouble with it personally.

    • hawkshead on 05/07/2023 - 09:28

      Do your employer reimburse you for the cost of the cert they requested?

      • kaleidoscope on 05/07/2023 - 10:36

        No. I havent had to pay for cert so far.

    • plastererJazz on 05/07/2023 - 10:16

      Doesn’t going to GP the next day count as sick leave? Effectively 2 days leaves instead of one.

      • kaleidoscope on 05/07/2023 - 10:34

        Well depends how you look at it… On rare occasions that you have to book them for next day you can apply for just the hours away instead of whole day may be? GP will ofcourse include both days on the cert or even more if they advice to rest… But you just apply for leave for the original day and hours you’re away to see gp.

  • Downfall on 04/07/2023 - 23:21

    Do it this way,

    For a medical certificate.

    Login to HealthEngine go to Request a medical certificate, click the "Online Form" (it's $18.90 - $19.00)

    You answer 5 Yes/No questions, Pay and within 20 minutes you get a medical Certificate.

    Super easy!

    • hawkshead on 05/07/2023 - 09:27

      So you have to pay to be sick? Does your employer reimburse you for the cost?

  • Downfall on 04/07/2023 - 23:22

    note: Australia, we aren't required to give any reason for being sick, they cannot ask why we are sick.

  • Punda on 05/07/2023 - 00:20
    +1

    I had someone hand me a stat dec once saying he’d hurt his ankle at the gym. So just print one off and go to the pharmacy, pay $2 and you’re away. They have to accept it.

  • Daddy Chill on 05/07/2023 - 02:12

    I have unlimited sick days

  • B00stJuice on 05/07/2023 - 05:40

    We get two sick days per year where we don't need a medical certificate (still get harassed)

    After that it's leave without pay or annual leave if agreed upon by employee

    There have been times where employees have used more than 10 days per year and they have been written up for it even though they had enough sick leave accumulated from previous years to cover it.. It depends who you are and if they like you really.

  • Wilson Wallace on 05/07/2023 - 08:23
    -5

    I've been a manager at a hospital for the past 5 years. We've had this policy implemented for a long time. With my workers, I expect 100% out of them and 100% they abide by all policies including this one. I've never had a staff member not be able to go get a certificate when they are sick. As a matter of fact, you can either call the doctor to explain what's going on, or now organise a tele health session and they usually send the certs to your email. THERE ARE NO EXCUSES UNLESS YOU ARE DEAD or your arms and legs are chopped off is what I tell my guys and girls.

    OP. I'm sorry, but go get that certificate as soon as you know. If it's the evening, go get that cert in the morning. No excuses.

    There are lots of people abusing the system and if you want to take a sickie, just have a mental health day, or go on carers leave. Be honest with your boss and yourself.

    • hawkshead on 05/07/2023 - 09:26
      +2

      People wonder why all the nurses are on strike, do you reimburse them for the cost of the certificate you've requested?

    • plastererJazz on 05/07/2023 - 09:38

      I'm sorry to know that there are a lot of people abusing the system from your experience.

      I haven't been asked for any cert in my career and I always say no need when GP or receptionist asks if I need one.

      And I haven't asked my team for any either because I know they have put it all on the floor.

      Since you are quite experienced in this area, may I ask how you validate or verify if a medical certificate is authentic or effective? is that just a paper?

      I'm actually asking what's up with those online cert services. but the post title seems a bit off-topic now I see it.

      • gromit on 05/07/2023 - 12:02
        +1

        Really if an employer is in a situation where they think they need to validate the validity of a cert then it is probably time to sack that employee as you don't deem them trustworthy even at a basic level.

        • plastererJazz on 05/07/2023 - 13:48
          +1

          Very true, but what is the difference between a cert one pays for after answering some yes-no questions online vs generating one from a dummy template?

          If one is genuinely unfit for work, why would they need to pay for proof when the employer is not gonna check?

          If one is determined to abuse the system, asking for a cert probably won't prevent it either because such an online med cert service exists.

          • larndis on 05/07/2023 - 14:34

            @plastererJazz: I don't think the employer can specify who needs to sign the certificate, anyone with the correct authority can provide them.

            The difference between obtaining a certificate legally online (even if from a questionable, but valid, source) and generating one yourself from a template is the latter would be fraud and cause for termination.

          • gromit on 05/07/2023 - 15:30

            @plastererJazz: the difference is really fraud. If you have someone willing to do that you already have a far more serious problem than someone taking an unjustified sick day, you basically have a criminal working for you that you need to flush urgently and will probably reveal themselves in other ways.

            • plastererJazz on 05/07/2023 - 22:40

              @gromit: Obviously it’s fraudulent to generate a dummy one.

              I don’t need one I dont expect any of my team/coworker need one neither.

              I’m more questioning the authority of those services.

              I once read somewhere that some organisations only accept cert from registered medical centres with doc signature on.

              Think about this, hypothetically, I build a website and connect with a GP friend to have him/her consent to put name on certs generated from this site and share the profit.

              I genuinely doubt it would be less fraudulent than create one from a word template.

              • gromit on 05/07/2023 - 23:16

                @plastererJazz: Both are considered criminal matters assuming the doctors name is going on a patients cert that he never consulted with.

      • Wilson Wallace on 05/07/2023 - 14:18

        Any kind of medical certificate is sufficient. This can be either from a Doctor, Priceline ($30) or an online med cert such as click clinic which is for $30. Your manager only cares about his / hers back. If auditing is conducted and no medical certificate has not been provided because your manager has been careless, it's not you who gets done, its him. There is a fine line with letting things go, but when things are stamped, and policies are written it must be done.

        Put yourself in a manger shoe. What would you do if you were earning a very high salary, you're a manager, and the org has just implemented this and they require all medical certificates to be scanned if people were sick on a Monday and Friday?

    • larndis on 05/07/2023 - 11:58
      +1

      @Wilson Wallace I am very, VERY glad I do not work for you.

      And I definitely cannot just 'call my doctor to explain'. My GP practice is booked out weeks or months ahead, probably in part due to horrendous managers like you.

      I would have hoped that working in the health field you would have a better understanding of how unhelpful and unnecessary this behaviour is.

      I currently have excellent, flexible managers and we don't have any problems with 'abuse' of personal leave.

      • Wilson Wallace on 05/07/2023 - 14:10

        The EBA states as well as the Orgs policy, if you are sick on a Monday or Friday you must have a medical certificate. The agreement also states that if you're sick on those days and don't provide a medical certificate, you will have a strike against your name in the HR system and you can only do it 3 times, before you are called to senior management and the business manager. You can't provide me a certificate? Great, sick day on Monday with no certificate. Once, Twice, Three times and you are at HR. The system asks you whether the employee had a medical cert, and IT MUST BE SCANNED and uploaded to the HR system. Do you think I will put my job on the line? No. Some people don't like to hear these things, but they must be told. Managers now need to be re-trained on the new generations of workers coming through the door.

        Without frameworks, policies and governance it would be a circus.

        Don't like it? Leave.

        • larndis on 05/07/2023 - 14:28
          +1

          Well I don't need to leave because I already work in a healthy, functioning workplace where managers and employees respect each other. It most definitely isn't a 'circus'.

          Your comments likely explain a lot about the state of the health system TBH.

          • Miss B on 05/07/2023 - 19:08
            +1

            @larndis: I don't take sick leave very often, but in the last couple of years I have had a few 5+ day blocks of sick leave for genuine reasons, I still have weeks of sick leave available because of not taking it in previous years. Haven't been asked for a cert, their concern is whether I am/will be okay and if I need anyone to take care of anything while I'm sick.

            • larndis on 05/07/2023 - 21:34
              +1

              @Miss B: Sounds like you definitely don't work for Wilson Wallace then! That's absolutely how it should work

              • Miss B on 05/07/2023 - 23:12

                @larndis: I'd probably take a lot more sick days if I did. Worth the $20 for an online cert when you work for a place like that.

  • hawkshead on 05/07/2023 - 09:23

    The spirit of this seems to be that employees are liars and cant be trusted. Yet we will trust them when we are sitting next to them at work only. I'm a little unsure of how a Dr will be able to confirm that I'm not lying a month after I was sick? Is there a medical test that can determine a month after the fact that I had a migraine on monday?
    It feels pathetic? I guess this is one of those capitalism things? instead of being the cost of business it should be screw over employees whenever you can? unless a third party can defend them
    Is this in any way actually good for productivity? Having a sick stressed pissed off workforce?

    • p1 ama on 05/07/2023 - 12:49

      The spirit of this seems to be that employees are liars and cant be trusted.

      The entire point of a medical certificate is that it provides some form of "expert certification" that you are actually sick.

      Not going to get into whether people (broadly) are liars and whether they can be trusted or not, but this idea is hardly that controversial. If we could just take people on trust, then there would be no need for any professional certification organisations ("trust me, I'm an expert in XYZ"), we wouldn't need drivers' licenses ("trust me, I can drive"), we won't need airport security ("trust me, I'm not bringing anything harmful onto the plane")…etc.

      I'm a little unsure of how a Dr will be able to confirm that I'm not lying a month after I was sick? Is there a medical test that can determine a month after the fact that I had a migraine on monday?

      You don't go to a doctor a month after you're sick, you go to the doctor the day you are sick. They offer a professional opinion based on their knowledge and education that you actually are sick, and they issue you a medical certificate.

      Your employer can verify the validity of the certificate (i.e. that you are not committing forgery), but in general, are not allowed to ask your doctor for more specifics of your illness. Completely reasonable policy.

      It feels pathetic? I guess this is one of those capitalism things?

      Quite the opposite actually, the reason why we can only have a capitalist system is because everyone is self-interested and will look to exploit every system they can to have more and do less.

      instead of being the cost of business it should be screw over employees whenever you can? unless a third party can defend them

      How is an employer "screwing over" an employee in this situation? Are you suggesting that organisations should just take an employee's word for when they're sick without any need for a medical certificate?

      I mean, I broadly agree with you around the margins (e.g. if it's only for a day), but the broader point seems strange. If anything, ensuring that employees are honest benefits most those who are honest.

      • hawkshead on 06/07/2023 - 10:42

        You're able to get to your dr on the same day you're too unwell to get to work? I didnt say nothing about drivers licenses but go off.

  • oldmate78 on 05/07/2023 - 13:51

    Employers and third parties (example universities, insurance companies) are allowed to approach doctors - See "Verifying a Medical Certificate" link below.

    Doctor is allowed to respond simply yes or no to whether the document is genuine. If it's not genuine, person in question could be up for a criminal offence.

    https://www.avant.org.au/Resources/Public/Medical-certificat…

    • plastererJazz on 05/07/2023 - 14:28

      Doesn't this auto deem some of the online services as fraudulent as there might not be a real doc behind them.

      • oldmate78 on 05/07/2023 - 17:31

        Haven't used these online services so not sure if they claim to be doctors or not. If they aren't a doctor, maybe avoid getting a med cert from them?

      • larndis on 05/07/2023 - 21:38

        If you have knowledge that any company is selling fraudulent medical certificates (i.e. they don't meet the legal requirements in the relevant jurisdiction) you should report to the appropriate authorities. I don't think OzBargain counts.

        • plastererJazz on 06/07/2023 - 08:12

          couldn’t find any relevant knowledge.

          Pharmacies like Priceline and some websites charge $20 - 30 to issue one with practically no question asked.

          Like “I’m feeling unwell but I need to pay other business to prove I’m feeling unwell to apply for a sick leave”

          • larndis on 06/07/2023 - 10:37

            @plastererJazz: Well, that is the consequence of the bad policy of requiring medical certificates for every minor illness

            • larndis on 06/07/2023 - 10:51

              @larndis: Any pharmacist can issue a medical certificate, that would include Priceline. It's up to the pharmacist to determine if they are satisfied of the need, I doubt the bar for one day would be very high. I believe any certificate should include the medical practitioner's name or registration number. You could look this up on AHPRA to confirm they are legit.

    • CowFrogHorse on 05/07/2023 - 17:45

      How do you know avant guard has any legal authority ?

      • oldmate78 on 06/07/2023 - 10:13

        They are a medical indemnity firm, their job is to know the law

  • Aneurism on 05/07/2023 - 17:16

    Some workplaces accept a stat dec in place of a med cert.

  • CowFrogHorse on 05/07/2023 - 17:44

    Q: How Does an Employee Validate or Verify if a Medical Certificate Is Authentic or Effective?

    A: They can only read the paper.

    No doctor will validate they have written a certificate over the phone or in person, because of privacy and professional reasons.

  • Frankensnore on 05/07/2023 - 19:55

    The answer to this question is the same answer as to how do teachers validate the legitimacy of parent's signature for the kids exam paper or medical leave. It's not meant to be validated. They just trust it.

  • sien on 06/07/2023 - 07:57

    I look them for at least 2 seconds.

    I don't set the policy in any way though.

    However, they are stored in the HR system and presumably if someone was abusing sick leave they would be examined.

    But where I work everyone collects sick leave like crazy. I have more than 100 days.

  • Ynk on 06/07/2023 - 08:58

    If anyone is silly enough to request I provide a certificate I am happy to but I always make sure it's for a much longer period of time than if I had just been left alone to recover.

  • PurchaseAnxiety on 06/07/2023 - 11:16

    My current employer is pretty good. I’ve never had to present a sick cert, though I’d imagine they’d expect to see one if I was taking more than a few days off (in that case I’d probably be heading into the doctor anyway).

    I think an understated aspect of this is that it’s nice to feel trusted by your employer. A sick note is basically the adult version of a note from your parents explaining your absence. Having to present one every time I had a cold, flu or severe migraine felt like a childish and futile exercise, and it sends the messages that your employer has a default position of not trusting you. If you don’t trust me, don’t hire me in the first place.

    • plastererJazz on 06/07/2023 - 11:22

      agree, I haven't been asked one for years. this just came to my mind when I looked up an alternative ways to refill my prescription.

  • gstfree on 06/07/2023 - 12:51

    I always promote unused PL 50% cash out as ETP on termination. This way employees will look after his/her PL balance.

  • wayfastwhitie on 06/07/2023 - 13:44

    I know my employer doesn't. I do my own and have never been questioned on it.

  • Ughhh on 06/07/2023 - 13:56

    It sucks, but there are people who are dishonest and ruin the trust relationship for everyone.
    My workplace has a policy, but only enforces it on people who take suspicious sick leave all the time.

    • CowFrogHorse on 06/07/2023 - 14:31

      Exactly the managers who check medical certificates are also the same managers who do absolutely nothing every day, even avoiding their responsibilities and doing absolutely nothing to help in anyway.

  • db87 on 06/07/2023 - 16:38

    You're protected by the Fair Work Act, end of story. If the employer doesn't like it, bad luck. My employers rarely call even call them sick days anymore, they're personal days to cover caring for others, mental health days, etc.

    Sicky.com or check out the app. Honestly, given you are under the weather/fatigued or mentally unfit, NOT leaving the house is the greatest idea ever and it costs less than a visit to the doc, you only pay if you want to view/utilise the cert.

    In saying the above, we have a very open dialogue with our supervision and can more often than not cover any one person being off at the drop of a hat. That and some trust goes a long way. We also don't get questioned on personal leave unless it's either side of a weekend, PH, or 2+ consecutive days.

    Thank me later. 👍

    • plastererJazz on 06/07/2023 - 18:11

      This is what it should be

    • Ughhh on 07/07/2023 - 11:15

      The same fairwork act also allows the employer to ask for evidence btw.

  • lpn on 14/07/2023 - 01:34
    +1

    My workplace requires a medical certificate after two days off for sick/personal leave but our manager has rarely asked for the certificate. It is the trust you build with your employer, the managers tend to know those who take advantage of the sick days.

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