Workplace Cancelling Work from Home Completely

vv285 on 22/08/2023 - 11:56

So my workplace canceled WFH benefits completely and has asked people to come to work 5 days a week at the notice of a week a month ago.

Before joining the HR touted they offer 'great' flexibility and at max we will be asked to work 3 days from the office which now they completely reneged on. Most employees joined them a year ago based on such promises and now they've completely gone back on their promise.

This sudden change of rule might also be because the company is not doing well. Their share price has well below half and they might be looking to offload people without trying to lay them off. Not only that people with genuine work-from-home requests like people whose kids are registered in NDIS etc are being rejected requests officially and are being asked to take holidays or come to the office after taking care of their arrangements and working late etc.

Some of us work in IT and we really don't need to be in the workplace since its been proven over the last 3 years all over the world and they still insist that we have to be working from the office. Some people with no excuses do work from home though which angers most employees since there is a clear double standard between someone new and old employees.

Is this fair? Can something be done about this?

Education & Work

Comments

    • CowFrogHorse on 24/08/2023 - 18:34
      -4

      got news for you…. laws in the UK only apply to the UK…

      now you know why women are allowed to drive in Aus even though they arent in Saudi Arabia.

  • AustriaBargain on 22/08/2023 - 12:17
    +19

    genuine work-from-home requests like people whose kids are registered in NDIS

    I thought you needed to arrange care for children if children are home while you are working? What difference does it make if the worker has children at home on NDIS or not, unless they want to be paid their wage while caring for their own kids?

    • lewislardboy on 22/08/2023 - 12:21
      +10

      If you need to care for a child — you should take careers leave. If you're caring for the child every day — an employer probably has the right to question your productivity while multitasking.

      If an employer can accommodate allowing parents to do the school run, work at the office until 3 — and then from home for the remaining 2 hours; that would be a very fair outcome. Rough for parents otherwise.

      • smartazz104 on 23/08/2023 - 11:19
        +4

        an employer probably has the right to question your productivity while multitasking.

        Why not take it a step further and only hire childless people…

    • vv285 on 22/08/2023 - 12:23

      In this case, some of my colleagues have kids who need to go to regular therapy sessions and cant get appointments only during mid-day. They cant keep commuting for 4 hours to and fro from the office. A single day work from home request cant be a legit one in this case.

      • keejoonc on 22/08/2023 - 12:26
        +32

        that's what carer's leave and annual leave is for. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

        • Xistn on 22/08/2023 - 12:39
          +17

          I concur, but it's 2023 so everyone thinks they have the right to have cake on tap.

          • andresampras on 22/08/2023 - 12:53
            +10

            @Xistn:

            cake on tap

            Now THERE'S an idea!

          • caitsith01 on 23/08/2023 - 23:29
            +1

            @Xistn: So many posts like this, as if wages weren't at incredibly bad levels compared to the cost of… everything in 2023.

        • stringbean402 on 22/08/2023 - 12:40
          +3

          Exactly. If you don't like the working arrangements on offer find another employer that has a better offering.

          Nobody is holding a gun to your head. Your not a slave, your free to leave if you wish.

        • Boomstick on 23/08/2023 - 08:31
          +3

          This is exactly true. If you can’t manage your obligations to both family and work, you need to prioritise and arrange alternative options. The employer is not accountable for your life choices in having a family, nor an assumption that employees make that ‘nothing will change even if it’s not in my contract’

          Honestly a bit sick of this wo is me act the world has where everyone else should be thinking about them, the individual.

          This is business, if you don’t like business, find something else.

          • Blargman2001 on 23/08/2023 - 17:08
            +5

            @Boomstick: This is right. Unless a prior arrangement is in place, if you are paid to work from home you are 'at work' just like you were in the office. A quick check in with the kids here and there should be fine but you are not 'at work looking after your kids', you are on company time.

        • smartazz104 on 23/08/2023 - 11:20
          +16

          You can't have your cake and eat it too.

          Except senior management and CEOs, they will have their cake and your cake and everybody else's cake.

        • Zephyrus on 23/08/2023 - 11:31
          +2

          The flexibility is moving around their hows, so if they need to take them to an appointment at 11, they start early or finish late so they can have that break in the middle. I've worked in companies that mange this and it works great for them

          Isn't possible to do from the office because they have to commute home to pick the kid up.

        • CowFrogHorse on 24/08/2023 - 18:35

          Yeh…

          Keep on commuting for 2 - 3 hours day, maybe if you are lucky in 10 years time you can be commuting for 5 hours day…

          If you keep on crawling on your knees one day you are going to forget you have a spine.

  • keejoonc on 22/08/2023 - 12:22
    +11

    You are asking how this is fair but is it fair if those with kids are being granted WFH arrangement when those without kids aren't?

    • vv285 on 22/08/2023 - 12:24
      +3

      I am single myself and yeah its not fair on me too when I see someone who knows the management well happily work from home.

      • stringbean402 on 22/08/2023 - 12:41
        +8

        They are likely trusted by management to actually get the work done. Shit employees generally don't get along well with their managers because they make their life difficult.

        Some people are self motivated and can be trusted to WFH. Some aren't.

        • keejoonc on 22/08/2023 - 12:46
          +4

          This. I have two people reporting to me directly and I wouldn't care if one of them requested to WFH as I know how dediated and productive that team member is. The other team member on the otherhand, who joined about 8 months ago with an agreement that she will WFH one day a week, is a completely different story. I know she doesn't get much done during her WFH days and her status is constantly "away" throughout the day. Oddly enough, the productive person hates WFH so I couldn't even force that person to WFH.

          • vv285 on 22/08/2023 - 13:11
            +1

            @keejoonc: And I hope you give both the feedback they deserve then. So the one not doing well steps up.

            • keejoonc on 22/08/2023 - 15:17
              +1

              @vv285: I normally do not like to micro manage and like to leave my team to do their own thing, but yes I did have a few serious words with that team member about coming in late, leaving work early and not performing at the level I expect from her. Some tears were shed and I'm seeing some improvements already.

              • vv285 on 22/08/2023 - 16:32
                +2

                @keejoonc: Yes thats how feedback should be working to set things right.

                In my place the middle management itself goes awol and doesnt respond when employees raise concern. Also everyone was given the same review. Most companies who have bad processes and cant manage properly are the ones that cancel WFH since they cant measure employee output.

                • keejoonc on 22/08/2023 - 16:35

                  @vv285: What you have to understand is the workplace is full of different people and it's impossible to have a rule that works and makes everyone happy at the same time. WFH is one of of those things that works for some and not for others so it's far easier if they just request everyone to come in, which isn't anything new before so many people contracted the "self entitlement" disease during COVID.

                  • vv285 on 22/08/2023 - 16:43
                    +4

                    @keejoonc: A 3-2 hybrid model is really good and most of the employees were obeying its since we were asked to return to offices.

                    With a 5 day week we get dragged into useless meetings where nothing moves ahead since some people like to have moeetings in their calender to show everyone that they are useful for the company. Anyway you get waht you ask for, Most employees have started looking out and some have handed in their notices too. When most people offer hybrid people who dont are going to lose out.

                    If there was a self entitlement disease, the companies themselves are to blame to do that. They should have stood firm but they too were greedy and overhired people making false promises and now make excuses like cancelling wfh to achieve productivity.

                    • keejoonc on 22/08/2023 - 16:56
                      +1

                      @vv285:

                      With a 5 day week we get dragged into useless meetings where nothing moves ahead since some people like to have moeetings in their calender to show everyone that they are useful for the company.

                      I don't see how having too many meetings is even relevant to WFH vs WFO. That's just the cultural issue at your workplace and not driven by where people work.

                      • CowFrogHorse on 24/08/2023 - 18:37

                        @keejoonc: The people who are creating the meetings are the only doing so becaue they crave attention to pretend they are contributing. These are the same people who do nothing aka the managers.

              • Skinnerr on 24/08/2023 - 12:20

                @keejoonc: Stopping someone abusing WFH and and bludging isn't 'micro managing' it's doing your job to manage people. They could be sleeping or gone down to the shops on the company dollar.

                Eventually her poor productivity compared to other subordinates could reflect poorly on you.

                • keejoonc on 24/08/2023 - 12:30

                  @Skinnerr: Yeah I know it's not micro managing but from her point of view, I bet it'll be seen that way. Not that I care :)

      • love2buy on 24/08/2023 - 18:22

        They obviously value your human presence more to want you back in the office regardless of decline in productivity.

  • tsunamisurfer on 22/08/2023 - 12:24
    +25

    Its incredible that people think they can tell their employer where they want to work.

    4 years ago you would have been fired on the spot.

    You've had 4 years at home, WFH was for a particular reason, that reason is gone.

    I understand some people are equally productive or even more so when WFH. That's great.

    But if work says come back, please go back.

    Is this fair?

    Yes it is.

    Can something be done about this?

    Yes there is, you may choose to resign.

    • keejoonc on 22/08/2023 - 12:28
      +17

      Yeah it's incredible how people now think they are entitled to WFH.
      I wonder how the society functioned pre COVID.

      • tsunamisurfer on 22/08/2023 - 12:32
        +22

        My work is VERY flexible, some people come in once a year.

        We had a team meeting to discuss possibly, pretty please, just consider, coming in ONCE a week, if you don't mind?

        The responses were :

        • That means I have to take public transport again.
        • That means I have to deal with traffic congestion again.
        • That means I have to iron my clothes again.
        • Is work going to compensate me for travelling time?
        • If they company cannot afford to pay me to live within 30 mins of the office, it should be in business.

        That last one almost had me losing my coffee in a professional setting.

        • keejoonc on 22/08/2023 - 12:41
          +6

          I guess work should tell them that since their previous pay was based on them coming into the office which took into account cost of travel etc, their pay should now be reduced if they choose to WFH since they don't spend their time and money on commuting to work.

          • dogboy on 22/08/2023 - 13:29
            +8

            @keejoonc: I think a lot of people would now happily take a small pay cut to be able to still work remotely full time.

            • keejoonc on 22/08/2023 - 15:22
              +8

              @dogboy: I doubt that. Entitled people will always be entitled.

              • CowFrogHorse on 27/08/2023 - 00:21

                @keejoonc: @keejonc

                I hope entitled people like you stop demanding payment, or perhaps you can live and eat the crumbs from the under the company fridge as payment.

            • Nebargains on 26/08/2023 - 07:00

              @dogboy: People say that, but if it happened they would be outraged.

          • azero on 23/08/2023 - 12:36
            +5

            @keejoonc: Assuming that the cost of living didnt go up ?

            It is not the 1900 s anymore, and employees specially the highly skilled ones have lot of bargaining power.

            Employers can ask them to come in and employees can say f off and go work somewhere else.

            Remeber that all the labour rules and job security that you have now is there because someone else fought for it in the past. Not out of the goodness of heart of your employer.

            • keejoonc on 23/08/2023 - 12:52

              @azero: As mentioned already by others, if you are not happy about a job that requires you to be in the office then go and find a different job. It's that simple.

              Cost of living isn't the employer's concern. All they need to do is pay the market rate to retain and attract people to work for them.

          • pencilhead on 23/08/2023 - 16:02
            +2

            @keejoonc: Yeah, but for those working from home, there is extra office costs of heating,cooling internet etc.
            My company doesn't want us back and has sold vast majority of office spaces it had. Nowhere to go back to even if we wanted to.

            • keejoonc on 23/08/2023 - 16:06

              @pencilhead: Oh give me a break. Most, if not all, will have internet at home anyway so it doesn't cost them anything extra to use internet at home for work.
              Cooling/heating costs will be more than offset by not having to spend money on public transport/fuel etc. Besides, who uses aircon/heater at home all the time anyway?

              • pencilhead on 23/08/2023 - 16:26
                +3

                @keejoonc: Just saying, company has done the sums and it's cheaper for them to have us working WFH than it is to provide office space and amenities required to run an office. Those costs have been pushed onto the employee and yes there is a significant additional cost to work from home.

                • CowFrogHorse on 24/08/2023 - 18:38

                  @pencilhead: What a load of rubbish. Office space per desk costs thousands a year. Those multi million dollar buildings are not free. Cleaners, security, secretaries on every floor, and more all cost money.

                  • pencilhead on 24/08/2023 - 19:49
                    +1

                    @CowFrogHorse: huh? That's what I said:
                    "Just saying, company has done the sums and it's cheaper for them to have us working WFH than it is to provide office space and amenities required to run an office"

                    But it is NOW an extra cost is on us because we no longer have an office space because company has kicked us out and sold the offices. They no longer have those costs - We do! And they profited from selling the offices to boot.

        • burningrage on 22/08/2023 - 12:54
          +1

          The last one actually doesn't read sensibly to me.

          Are you meant to say, "If the company cannot afford to pay me to live within 30 mins of the office, it should NOT be in the business"?

          • tsunamisurfer on 22/08/2023 - 12:59
            +1

            @burningrage: Sorry should not be in business it should say.

            • burningrage on 22/08/2023 - 13:00

              @tsunamisurfer: Np. I was genuinely trying to understand why you were "losing my coffee" so I thought I might have read it incorrectly.

        • jayzee on 23/08/2023 - 17:31

          With that kind of attitude towards the company that pays their wages, I don't think the company gets what it pay for.

      • smartazz104 on 23/08/2023 - 11:22
        +16

        Senior management spent years telling people that working from home was not possible, until many people had to do it. Now micromanagers can't justify their existence.

      • atali on 23/08/2023 - 22:20
        +4

        I wonder if you wondered how society functioned pre computers era. if you can get the job done anywhere why would you be forced to work from single place

        • keejoonc on 24/08/2023 - 09:07

          See that's where you are wrong. You are not forced to do anything. You are always free to go elsewhere if you don't like the rules.You are paid by the employer and they can direct you to undertake the work in the way they see fit as long as it's a reasonable request. Asking employees to come into the office is considered a reasonable request unless there ares other circumstances which require certain employees to be given some flexibility. Excuses like "Can't be bothered to catch public transport", "Tech at work sucks", "Too many meetings" don't qualify.

        • CowFrogHorse on 24/08/2023 - 18:40
          +1

          THe answer is very simple management.

          In a world of WFH, the contributions of management are more obviously zero. In an opffice most managers again do nothing except try and arrange and attend meetings which achieve nothing and contribute nothing to understanding, design or completing a task.

        • love2buy on 24/08/2023 - 18:51
          +1

          Bosses don't just want people to get the job done and end there. They want you to add value to the company. WFH doesn't encourage that. Infact it achieves the opposite effect.

          • CowFrogHorse on 24/08/2023 - 23:19
            +1

            @love2buy: love: Bosses don't just want people to get the job done and end there.

            cow: Says who ?

            love: They want you to add value to the company.

            cow: okay heres some real value…Stop wasting money on office space and eliminate 3/4 of your managers for starters. We all know managers contribute NOTHING of any value and cost a lot of money.

            There i just saved many companies at least 25% f their budget.

            love: WFH doesn't encourage that. Infact it achieves the opposite effect.

            cow: Basically every company on earth has remote workers.

            Take the power system… do you REALLY need too be at the power station to make sure the power is running ?

            Or how about woolies ? They have many stores and warehouses all over the place ? How does that work if everyone isnt in the same place a tthe same time ?

    • paullovesbargains on 23/08/2023 - 09:21
      +27

      So the fact that the world has got better at supporting the needs of the workers is a bad thing. Huh. WFH also gives a break to the monotony of daily commutes and being in a damned office 5 days a week. Good for the mental health.
      It can be just as productive with the tools we now have at hand to support it. A great number of people are abusing it, but they probably do the same at work.

      • infinite on 24/08/2023 - 22:30
        -2

        If working in an office 5 days a week is bad for anyone's mental health, they need to resign and go seek the professional mental health support needed, so that they can one day rejoin society and become a productive person again.

        No employers or co-workers need to suffer or reduce their professional standards just because a tiny minority can't grow up or deal with the basic responsibilities of life.

      • Nebargains on 26/08/2023 - 07:05

        WFH also gives a break to the monotony of daily commutes

        Only to be replaced by the monotony of walking to a spare bedroom and sitting in front of your computer for 8hrs.

        • CowFrogHorse on 27/08/2023 - 00:19

          Did it ever occur to you to maybe walk outside w/ the kids or dog or visit a park, ride a bike?

          No i guess sitting in a train watchint tiktok for 20 hours a week is entertainment… im not sure if pity is a strong enough word…

    • GooseHoward on 23/08/2023 - 10:27
      +21

      Its incredible that people think they can tell their employer where they want to work.

      What's incredible is that employers complain about not being able to find enough people while pulling stunts like this.

      4 years ago you would have been fired on the spot

      Even if that were true, it's not 4 years ago anymore. Times change - both employers and employees have to adapt - it's a two-way street.

      You've had 4 years at home, WFH was for a particular reason, that reason is gone.

      Plenty of other reasons to work from home (depending on the role, of course). If managed well it's not just beneficial to employees.

      Yes it is [fair].

      If it isn't in the contract, it might be legal, but that doesn't make it fair. Personally I would have a problem reneging on my word like that, but I guess you and I have different ideas about what's fair and what isn't.

      Yes there is, you may choose to resign.

      I wonder how OP's employer will fare should more employees take this option than they'd like.

      • vv285 on 23/08/2023 - 13:03
        +1

        Lots of people have. Any management doesnt seem to be all the bothered. Looks like its waht they wanted all along

    • DingoBilly on 24/08/2023 - 06:10
      +3

      Oof. Bad employers will indeed push a back to office approach. I'm surprised people support bad companies though. WFH is clearly just better and should be the default, or a hybrid approach where needed.

      Is it just an older generation that really supports this need to be in an office and waste your life/time there approach?

      I manage staff and they're extremely loyal purely because of my stances towards them having good life balance. Take that out and all of a sudden companies start complaining about lazy employees or why they have high turnover. Wish people just thought a bit more.

      • Nebargains on 26/08/2023 - 07:11
        +2

        WFH is clearly just better

        For who?

        Better for the employee but I think the benefits to the company are probably non existent and in some cases detrimental to the company.

        My experience is that WFH is creating division, you have a section of the company who go to the office regularly and have great working relationships because they see each other often, then you have people who never come in and when they have to bitch and moan about it and are the awkward kid at the party where no-one really knows them because they WFH, join meetings with cameras off and prefer instant message to a real conversation.

        I also feel like at my company at least that it is really hampering some projects and I've have a number of peers where their skill development is really lagging behind others.

        So let's be clear, when people say it's better they mean for themselves then when they have to justify how it's better for the employer they have to think of reasons that really can't be measured.

    • Yotta00 on 24/08/2023 - 23:17

      Fired on the spot, is a tv trope not based on reality.

    • devize on 25/08/2023 - 16:18

      If it worked fine for 4 years, why does it suddenly not work now?

  • Bman17 on 22/08/2023 - 12:37
    +16

    To me, WFH is boring. WFO is good fun. Does anyone else feel the same?

    • pharkurnell on 22/08/2023 - 12:43
      +13

      Yep… I like the mixture of few days each…

    • reactor-au on 23/08/2023 - 08:19
      +13

      It's a lot less about not being in the office and a whole lot more about the 2 hours commuting every day.

    • kl2999 on 23/08/2023 - 09:51

      yeah get to talk to different colleague.

    • ratman on 23/08/2023 - 11:53

      Yes

    • atali on 23/08/2023 - 22:22
      +7

      to me WFO is boring. WFH is good fun. Does anyone else feel the same?

      • tikei on 24/08/2023 - 14:10
        +3

        Yeah, no obligatory water cooler talk is great. No one coming over to my desk several times an hour and disrupting me has been keeping me sane. I'm way more productive WFH.

    • CowFrogHorse on 24/08/2023 - 18:40

      I guess you also think weekends and holidays should be banned ?

      Why even go home, why dont you stay at office permanently ?

    • love2buy on 25/08/2023 - 09:26

      Someone gets it

    • Nebargains on 26/08/2023 - 07:14

      I agree. WFH had real benefits to the employee, like time and money saved etc but I don't like it personally.

      The office is a much better work environment and really sets my mind to 'work mode', also allows for a seperation between work and home.

      I still WFH once a fortnight or so, but I feel so much less productive on those days.

  • Xistn on 22/08/2023 - 12:42
    +2

    Starting to see why a ticket to Mars to start fresh, is a good idea…

    Putin press the red button.

    • pharkurnell on 22/08/2023 - 12:43

      its a shame Mars One was a sham.
      https://www.mars-one.com/

      • Xistn on 22/08/2023 - 12:50
        +1

        Kony 2012 still waiting on my sticker pack

    • Mechz on 22/08/2023 - 13:20

      Start afresh until everyone likes it how it was done before.

    • CowFrogHorse on 24/08/2023 - 18:42
      -1

      Do you want to wear a nappy for the rest of your life on Mars ?

      Do you realise that over half of all people including experienced astronauts get sick on a regular basis ?

      Living in space is worse than solitary confinement in guitmo… you have no idea of the nightmare that is space travel or living on mars.

  • [Deactivated] on 22/08/2023 - 12:52
    +12

    Not only that people with genuine work-from-home requests like people whose kids are registered in NDIS etc

    This is such bs. If the work is able to be done from home with no loss in productivity then it should have nothing to do with caring responsibilities whatsoever.

    I had a team member who was WFH P/T years ago yet would drop out of conference calls & not respond to calls/emails until she was back in the office. Staff would avoid dealing with her & approach other team members to assist which caused morale issues & stupid gossip. We found out later that she was caring for her elderly father but it was kept hush-hush & management stupidly thought that it would just work.

    It's a shame some companies are rolling back WFH opportunities but that is their right.

  • CrowReally on 22/08/2023 - 12:57
    +6

    Some of us work in IT and we really don't need to be in the workplace since its been proven over the last 3 years all over the world and they still insist that we have to be working from the office

    Same logic as "I do just as good work wearing my pyjamas as I do with a collar and tie", probably true, but the person paying you gets to decide.

    • pharkurnell on 22/08/2023 - 13:22
      +7

      but the person paying you gets to decide.

      This is how it is … /close thread.

    • CowFrogHorse on 24/08/2023 - 18:49
      +1

      So because someone wears a tie that somehow makes them professional ?

      Cant you tell when someone is doing a good job or is your only measurement whether they are wearing a tie ?

      • CrowReally on 25/08/2023 - 00:30

        1. Yes, image is a part of the professional package. This is why when you book a limousine, the chauffeur is wearing a suit (and not a T-shirt and jeans).

        2. Even if that wasn't the case, if your boss is enforcing a work attire policy of a collar and tie, then you're going to be wearing a collar and tie, regardless of the quality of your work.

        3. Yes, I can tell when someone is doing a good job and no, my only measurement is not whether they are wearing a tie. My previous comments touched on neither of these concepts, so not sure why you're asking but there's the answer.

        4. You've responded at least twenty times in this thread telling everyone how they have unrealistic ideas about work from watching American shows but you also keep repeating managers don't know anything and they just schedule meetings to look busy (which is basically the biggest TV cliche of the lot).

        Are you trying to convince us you have either 1. Office experience or 2. A position of responsibility in a workplace?

        • CowFrogHorse on 27/08/2023 - 00:17

          With logic like yours, you arent far from judging a person on the colour of their skin…

  • Tee Rex Arms on 22/08/2023 - 12:59
    -1

    Good

  • onetwothreefour on 22/08/2023 - 13:02
    +18

    Just look for another job. I'm currently doing 2 days in the office and 3 at home, if my employer went back to 5 days in the office I would just leave.

      • pharkurnell on 22/08/2023 - 13:24
        +25

        People championing no wfh don't understand how stressful daily commutes are for the body and mind

        hahahahahahahaha Think about what you wrote.. Obviously they do know cause they go to work…

        • Muzeeb on 22/08/2023 - 14:57
          +22

          OP just lost all credibility with me by that one simple statement.

        • BillyStm on 22/08/2023 - 17:23
          +6

          wtf! Seriously…mind blown at that statement!! And people wonder why this world is going the way it is….

          Imagine if all the workers working in a physical capacity had this mindset…

        • CowFrogHorse on 24/08/2023 - 18:43
          -1

          THey do understand… they are probably losers who have no life and are managers who wont have a job if most people WFH.

          • Nebargains on 26/08/2023 - 07:29

            @CowFrogHorse: A good manager can manage you regardless of your location or their location.

            • CowFrogHorse on 26/08/2023 - 10:54

              @Nebargains: And there are lotto winners, but most people dont win lotto. Stop talking bullshit.

        • infinite on 24/08/2023 - 22:34
          +2

          OP is obviously just trolling.

          They've clearly never worked a day in their life.

        • CowFrogHorse on 26/08/2023 - 10:55

          I work from home, … i pity idiots who think wasting 2 - 4 hours a day commuting is great.

          Dont you have any friends or family that you could spend that time with every day ?

      • keejoonc on 22/08/2023 - 15:13
        +7

        Been doing it for 20 years and I'm still alive and kicking.

        Seriously, you are using the excuse "passing on germs"? So I gather you never go out in public where you are in contact with other people? Otherwise, your argument is totally moot.

        The worst part is they dont care about whos doing what as long as they are in office.

        That's not your concern.

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