Would You Purchase a House with This History?

SupeNintendoChalmers on 09/09/2023 - 18:56
Last edited 09/09/2023 - 19:52 by 1 other user

I found a house for sale, an older home on a decent block in a good suburb, the price might be negotiable which is what I would do anyways since I’m a true blue OzBargainer.

The agent called us earlier today to disclose something that they are legally required to disclose, over 20 years ago there was a double homicide on the property.

Since that period, the home has had two owners, but I believe the state government here only changed the law 10 years ago to make it mandatory for real estate agents to disclose this to a prospective buyer.

I'm in two minds to pursue this, on one hand I accept that bad things happen and that for all we know, we might be reading this post this in properties or land were massacres have taken place, or even thinking about cities like Berlin, Warsaw and Moscow where horrible things happened and yet no doubt people eat, sleep etc on those sites or even the same rooms. On the other hand, I have no idea where the murderer is, are they still in gaol, or have they died and this those bug me and gives me pause for thought.

What are your thoughts?

Poll Options expired

  • 301
    Yes
  • 177
    No
Home & Garden

Comments

  • 2jzzzz on 09/09/2023 - 21:35
    +1

    Google the address and find out more?

    Negotiate hard and get a bargain if you don't care.

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 09/09/2023 - 21:49

      I know the basics already, but I'm heading to the magistrates court on Monday to do a search on their database and get extracts of the particulars of the case and outcome.

      Unfortunately I can only find one news article on this homicide

      • AustriaBargain on 09/09/2023 - 23:37
        +2

        What if the killer had buried some gold or something under the house, à la Panic Room, and he gets released from prison 21 years later and goes straight to the house to dig up the gold, but finds you living there…

  • CurlCurl on 09/09/2023 - 21:56
    +3

    There maybe a skeleton or two. Best get a cadaver dog to sweep the backyard.

    • drfuzzy on 11/09/2023 - 10:56
      +2

      Fascinating idea. How does the dog hold the broom?

  • onetwothreefour on 09/09/2023 - 22:06
    +2

    Think of the resale value, if you're having doubts then so will the people you try to sell it to one day.

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 09/09/2023 - 22:08
      -2

      Thats why I'm seeing if there is an expiry date on disclosure. It would seem ludicrous to have a record for time immemorial.

      • funnysht on 10/09/2023 - 13:41
        +5

        So you're glad you found out but don't mind not having to tell your next potential buyers? —__-

        • SupeNintendoChalmers on 10/09/2023 - 14:17
          -1

          Surely there must be reasonable date?

          Like for example, do you reckon that is relevant to tell people that a murder took place on a property 100 years ago?

          I certainly don't.

          Note the law also means that things like a termite infestation had occurred and need to be disclosed, even if they happened 100 years and even if the home has been razed, there are no provision for this in the law for date of expiry.

          I get telling buyers something went down on a property <25 years ago, but surely after a period like 25 years disclosure should end?

  • jv on 09/09/2023 - 22:32
    +2

    What are your thoughts?

    Buy it and knock it down.

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 09/09/2023 - 22:38
      +5

      Why isn't your comment bolded?

      • jv on 09/09/2023 - 22:45
        +4

        It didn't meet the criteria…

        • larndis on 10/09/2023 - 19:35
          +3

          Can we see the criteria?

      • LFO on 10/09/2023 - 11:05

        Bummer!

        How do you bold text?

        • DogeConomy on 10/09/2023 - 15:31

          Insert two asterisks between the words you need bolded: **bold** becomes bold.
          (one asterisk for italics, three for bold+italics, two tildes betwen text to strikethrough, etc etc.)
          look up Markdown Syntax for more help.

    • t_c on 10/09/2023 - 11:31

      Yep how do the numbers pan out for a dozer and new build?

      • SupeNintendoChalmers on 10/09/2023 - 22:15

        Back of napkin maths, around $500,000 for the home we'd like to build.

        Basically land + demo + renting + building would set the entire cost to be around $2.4 million.

  • Some Human on 10/09/2023 - 03:05
    +4

    I lived in a rental and my neighbour (who had been there 50+ years) told me a dude died on the toilet. Quite often I would think of the guy while I was taking a dump.

    • juki on 10/09/2023 - 10:30
      +2

      just think of hospital beds in single rooms that way, a few hours before you were in it someone may have been dying, taking a dump or both

    • Antikythera on 10/09/2023 - 16:04

      you ever watch Clerks?

    • capslock janitor on 10/09/2023 - 20:01

      That would unsettle my bowels… or the opposite effect

  • altomic on 10/09/2023 - 06:40
    +3

    my parents use to own an inner city workers cottage which they rented out.
    in the 80s an old bloke rented it.
    one day the neighbours noted he hadn't been seen for a while.
    police arrived and entered , and the poor chap had passed away in the front room 2 weeks prior.
    it was summer and the body had decomposed reasonably.
    flash forward 10 years and we are renovating the house to sell and I pull up the carpet (replaced 10 year prior) and there is a human shape stain on the floor boards..
    i don't believe it was disclosed to the buyers.

    but in regards to OPs query -ddecent block in a good suburb, the price might be negotiable - sounds like a killer deal.

    • mskeggs on 10/09/2023 - 10:29
      +1

      That would be very confronting, even more so if you were the new buyer who didn’t know the history!

      • capslock janitor on 10/09/2023 - 20:07

        imagine how much easier sales would be if such history were already on the listings.
        people can confidently compromise if they choose to

  • try2bhelpful on 10/09/2023 - 07:53

    https://www.canstar.com.au/home-loans/bad-reputation-house/

    In NSW there is a 5 year limit but there isn’t one mentioned for Victoria.

  • taradavey on 10/09/2023 - 08:04

    I was under the impression that the REA legally could not lie if you asked, but weren't required to tell you. I've read this article on domain about the laws, and they are more targeted to 'misleading information' about the property.

    My thoughts are that maybe this house was well known to the local community as being the house where this double homicide happened? 20 years is a fair while assuming there is no ghosts or spirits reported activity. If they felt they had to disclose to you, then if following the above domain article, they are wanting to protect themselves and ensure they are not misleading you. That sort of suggests to me that there is a reason they are disclosing 20 years after the murder. I would be questioning this. It may be as simple as them wanting to ensure they cover their asses just in case, but it might not be.

    Also according to that domain article, they have to disclose "even the suspected presence of ghosts." So maybe take it as a positive sign that they did not mention this.

    I think you are smart to try and delve deeper and find out more about the crime. You could knock on some neighbors doors and ask some questions? Older people may have been there when it happened.
    I would maybe think about asking the REA more - Is there a commuinity stigma surrounding the home? Have there been any rumours or complaints about potential ghost activity? Do you have more information about the homicides?

    If you end up buying the home, and it turns out they lied, you may at least be financially compensated (And even maybe have the contracts cancelled?). It might be worth the risk? (As long as it's not like "The Conjouring" or "Paranormal Activity" once you move in).

    And if you do buy it, you could try doing a few things to help your peace of mind. Whether you believe it will work or not, a smudge stick of dried sage usually would cost less than $20, and take less than half an hour for you to 'smudge' the home. Even if you don't believe in that and feel silly, it's a cheap and easy 'just in case'.

    For myself - I don't think it'd be enough to make me say no to the house.

    I don't think there are any laws about disclosure for when renting a property - I couldn't find any. Who knows how many properties I've lived in where somebody was murdered, or where somebody died by suicide. On Australian land we could be living on all sorts of burial grounds without knowing.
    I think it's worth the risk.

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 10/09/2023 - 13:12
      +4

      In Victoria before the amendment to the Sale Act (2019) REA were required to disclose only if the prospective buyer asked them.

      The law since 2019 means that REAs must inform all prospective buyers on "material" matters, which include but are not limited to things like

      • Serious Crime
      • Drug manufacturing in the property
      • Pest infestation
      • illegal extensions
      • if a property has been flooded or burned
      • Major structural detects

      Basically a material matter has to be something that would cause a buyer to think and pause as to wanting to purchase a property.

    • larndis on 10/09/2023 - 19:39
      +1

      Very interested to read the legislation that mentions ghosts!

  • try2bhelpful on 10/09/2023 - 08:14
    +3

    It depends on how active your imagination is. Houses make a lot of noises. If your imagination tries to link the noises with the murders you are might have a problem enjoying the house. As someone else said kids can be particularly prone to fears like this. They will, probably, find out about the history of the house so you do need to think about that.

    The rational part of my brain dismisses ghosts as a phenomena but the monkey part that kept us alive for millennia, and used to live in caves, isn’t so sure.

    • mskeggs on 10/09/2023 - 10:26
      +1

      Wow, all my houses have been dead silent…

      Just kidding.
      I’m not a believer in ghosts, but if I am in a place which somebody says is haunted, I am vigilant about any little noise or movement. I probably wouldn’t like to live in a place someone said had evil spirits or similar.

      • try2bhelpful on 10/09/2023 - 10:59
        +1

        I think that is the problem. We’ve all watched too many horror stories and our imaginations kick in when we hear a noise. In my case it isn’t helped by my cats occasionally staring intently into space.

    • mandelbrot on 11/09/2023 - 22:18
      -1

      I bought an investment property many years ago where apparently the previous owner passed away in the house. During the first week, Mrs and I were doing some reno inside. It was getting dark. Suddenly I thought I saw a shadow out of the corner of my eye and got the cold tingling feeling. Both of us bolted outside independently of each other without saying a word. She said she got freaked out by something too.

      Mrs wanted to get rid of it straight away. We ended up keeping it for a few years and sold it for a nice profit.

      But yeah - ghosts!

      • boretentsu on 15/09/2023 - 06:47

        Did your tenant report back anything?

  • JennyLo78 on 10/09/2023 - 08:16

    We were in the exact position a year back. Found a dream house (location wise), good price, but later found out its history by googling the address - there was still a write-up about the incident and some forums talking about it (power of the internet!).

    It’s not about if it’s haunted or the killer who is still at large will come back. Like a previous poster says, the community will very likely remember it and starts talking.

    It may affect you psychologically, bad Feng shui because everyone who passes by it may have the negative perception.

    We were really in love with the lot and we’re even thinking of the many things we can renovate. Ultimately, we decided not to go ahead with a heavy heart.

    Fast forward one year, it’s still NOT SOLD 😬 - despite the real estate agent telling me there was a couple of other buyers very keen and pushing us to give an offer. Hah!

    • jedimaster on 10/09/2023 - 10:28
      +1

      Every REA says that to make a sale

  • jhaley3180 on 10/09/2023 - 08:59
    +1

    Give me the address, I'll buy it!

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 10/09/2023 - 13:13

      It's closer to the $2m mark is that's your budget.

      (Yeah I know, market is cooked)

      • FireRunner on 10/09/2023 - 15:33
        +4

        It better include the ghosts at that price

  • shaybisc on 10/09/2023 - 09:00

    Have you found out who the murderer is and where they are now?

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 10/09/2023 - 13:14

      Finding out more tomorrow when I visit the local magistrates court.

      • peteru on 11/09/2023 - 01:14
        +5

        Pause and reflect.

        If you are going into that much trouble to get more information, rather than just shrugging it off, then this is not a deal for you.

        If it is doing your head in right now, when you are considering the price of the property, how do you think you are going to feel when you move in?

        Also look at the financial risks. You are not only going to be stuck with a big mortgage, but also with a very high risk of not being able to sell the property if your circumstances change.

        • SupeNintendoChalmers on 11/09/2023 - 19:58

          If you are going into that much trouble to get more information, rather than just shrugging it off, then this is not a deal for you.

          Investigating all avenues surely is due diligence?
          After speaking to a solicitor and going to court I have learned a few things, the most important being that the murderer is almost certainly in gaol and will be for another 22 years.

          Also look at the financial risks. You are not only going to be stuck with a big mortgage, but also with a very high risk of not being able to sell the property if your circumstances change.

          The first part of your question is ok, since buying the property even after stamp duty etc would decrease my mortgage by a not too insignificant chunk (not bragging).

          The second part though is very valid and a significant part of my analysis.

  • Sinnerator on 10/09/2023 - 09:17
    +1

    Cheap house and 2 free Ghosts, BARGAIN

    <in the duty of disclosure, I am required by law to inform you, that the ghosts are rather pissed off>

  • 82norm on 10/09/2023 - 09:30

    We can thank Seth Gonzalez for this rule. I think he’s still locked up.

    • shaybisc on 10/09/2023 - 09:34

      "The Gonzales family appeared to be close-knit: the parents, however, were devout Catholics who had high hopes and strict expectations for their children.[4] In particular, they had hoped their son would perform well academically, give up his musical and singing aspirations, and embark on a career in medicine or law."

      • 82norm on 10/09/2023 - 09:37

        Still in Supermax, guy was a nutter.

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 10/09/2023 - 13:16

      We can thank Seth Gonzalez for this rule. I think he’s still locked up.

      I'm super glad this rule is there is there to inform buyers of things, but really it should end after a set amount of time, let's say 25 years.

  • [Deactivated] on 10/09/2023 - 09:43

    Depends on what your plans are for the house, is it to be an investment property or your home?

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 10/09/2023 - 13:16

      Home

      • [Deactivated] on 13/09/2023 - 08:46

        I wouldn't buy it in that case, there's plenty of houses to look at, some will be better than that one.

  • [Deactivated] on 10/09/2023 - 09:58
    +4

    👻👻

  • Bid Sniper on 10/09/2023 - 10:52

    Id ask for a discount.

    I dont believe in spirits but i do believe in crist-a-tunity!

  • wchang235 on 10/09/2023 - 11:03

    If it has a Pet Semetary…….RUN!

  • LFO on 10/09/2023 - 11:03

    Yes, I will buy without hesitation.

    But as YOU are the buyer remember the old saying: When in doubt, DON'T!

  • congo on 10/09/2023 - 11:13

    I wouldn't. The growth would not be as good given its history.

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 10/09/2023 - 13:18

      Sale prices amongst the houses in the area is comparable to this home, always hard to gauge cause every house is in a different condition.

      • congo on 10/09/2023 - 14:48

        Most people would be put off by the history

  • ripesashimi on 10/09/2023 - 12:26

    Real problem is you also have to disclose it when you sell the house.

  • mskeggs on 10/09/2023 - 12:33
    +1

    Paint "I'll be back" in dripping red paint on the front door the night before an open house and you'll discourage other bidders.

  • RolandWaites on 10/09/2023 - 12:36
    +5

    Buy it, knock it down, build anew. With the removal of the bricks, so goes its dark past. Cleans the land as you would cleans your soul - eliminate the darkness, and welcome the light.

    • abently on 10/09/2023 - 12:52

      I agree with this.

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 10/09/2023 - 13:19
      +1

      That would make the purchase and rebuild price rocket past the $2m mark, so no way Jose.

  • tsunamisurfer on 10/09/2023 - 13:31
    -6

    REAs should NEVER be required to divulge this information. You are buying the location, the structure not the freedom from feelings of moving books.

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 10/09/2023 - 13:35
      +1

      I think this legal tidbit is sound.
      https://www.philwil.com.au/material-facts-and-the-sale-of-la…

      From 1 March 2020, the Sale of Land Amendment Act 2019 came into effect. One of the main changes that it dealt with are “material facts” relevant to the sale of real estate within Victoria.

      A material fact is a fact that a proposed purchaser ought to be made of aware of by a vendor or the vendor’s selling agent that could impact them in their decision to purchase.

  • FareEvader on 10/09/2023 - 14:13

    Don't do it man…

  • wizzy on 10/09/2023 - 14:39

    I don't think it would stop me buying the house. We live in a very old house (by Australian standards) so I am pretty sure that quite a few people would have died in it over the years. It was built during times when women gave birth at home and had 10+ kids many of whom died during infancy. Mothers frequently died during childbirth too under painful and stressful circumstances.

    There must be hundreds of houses like this in Sydney and Melbourne. You wouldn't even know normally.

    EDIT: I just asked my husband. He said that if the murder was notorious in the area, and people might be coming by the house to regularly look at it or mourn the victims then that might stop him. I think that situation might stop me too.

    • hdog on 11/09/2023 - 14:41

      My house is also very old and I had similar thoughts around how no doubt things would have happened here over time. I went researching and found that while many occupants had died at adult ages, in 1924 a baby girl died at three weeks old.. no clarity on whether she died in the house or elsewhere, or how she died, but I do wonder about it. I think about it often simply because we have brought three babies home to this house and our kids are still very small.. it hits close to home I guess, even 99 years later. Pun not intended.
      When we hear a funny noise we blame it on the ghost of baby Marjorie.. my husband is joking but sometimes I feel that she’s here.

      So OP, I think the details of the incident are important. If there are any parallels with your own life, absolutely don’t entertain it for a minute.
      Personally I don’t think I could sleep in a room knowing with certainty that there had been a super violent incident take place in it, but each to their own.

      • boretentsu on 15/09/2023 - 06:56
        +1

        Or that child could remind you how lucky you are to have three healthy children and modern medicine. Depends on how you look at it.

        • hdog on 16/09/2023 - 07:13

          So true! The death notice in the paper mentioned how devastated the parents were, so it a lot to think about that level of sadness being in the house. But yes, we are beyond lucky.

  • ihbh on 10/09/2023 - 14:41
    +1

    If you're this concerned, and eventually buy it, make sure you don't plant anything in the backyard.

    • capslock janitor on 10/09/2023 - 20:20

      whynot

      • ihbh on 10/09/2023 - 22:23
        +2

        Don't want to find out what's buried underneath when digging. :)

  • Euphemistic on 10/09/2023 - 14:48

    If you do buy it, just make sure you don’t own any insert murder weapon here

  • AuQld on 10/09/2023 - 15:41
    +1

    If you believe in Ghosts you must believe a priest can bless it and they'll be gone.

    I come from Europe where a lot of houses are 100s of years old, nobody asks if someone died in the house as it's just taken that someone did, world wars, roman wars, burning witches mehh, I've never had a bad night's sleep because of that shit, I would be definitely more concerned about the neighbors..

    • OzBarAnon on 13/09/2023 - 10:20

      You can believe in one and not the other. Your belief in the nature of ghosts does not have to be tied to the idea that a priest can remove them.

      • AuQld on 13/09/2023 - 10:37

        Well believe they're holy ghosts then. The living is all one should be afraid of.

  • Vieira4 on 10/09/2023 - 16:30

    Don’t go playing a ouija board with captain howdy.

    • 82norm on 13/09/2023 - 13:15
      +1

      Are you inside Reagan?

  • oO0Dam0Oo on 10/09/2023 - 16:38
    +2

    Think about all the bad stuff that went on in those Catholic schools and the like that many pay 10s of thousands to educate their children at.

    Went to a high school the other day and they had a small private cemetery there. Couldn’t help think about what else might be secretly buried there. Weird juju…

  • capslock janitor on 10/09/2023 - 19:42

    im superstitious and would not,

    unless as a rental investment

  • spedohero on 10/09/2023 - 20:25

    Which state requires agent to inform buyers? What if agent chose not to there are no ways a buyer would find out.

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 10/09/2023 - 22:06

      What if agent chose not to there are no ways a buyer would find out.

      Buyers have a due diligence checklist they should follow, but REA (in VIC at least) are obligated to disclose these matters.

      There is a penalty for breaching this provision with a fine of 120 penalty units (currently $19,826.40) or up to 12 months imprisonment.

      Also, the buyer can sue the REA for damages in loss of earnings etc- basically an agent\business could be up for 100s of thousands, if not a million + in compensation, not to mention if they failed to disclose this to the vendor when preparing legal documents, it might lead the vendor being able to sue the REA.

  • godofpizza on 10/09/2023 - 20:37

    if the OP buy the property do they need to disclose if theyre renting it out?

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