Would You Purchase a House with This History?

SupeNintendoChalmers on 09/09/2023 - 18:56
Last edited 09/09/2023 - 19:52 by 1 other user

I found a house for sale, an older home on a decent block in a good suburb, the price might be negotiable which is what I would do anyways since I’m a true blue OzBargainer.

The agent called us earlier today to disclose something that they are legally required to disclose, over 20 years ago there was a double homicide on the property.

Since that period, the home has had two owners, but I believe the state government here only changed the law 10 years ago to make it mandatory for real estate agents to disclose this to a prospective buyer.

I'm in two minds to pursue this, on one hand I accept that bad things happen and that for all we know, we might be reading this post this in properties or land were massacres have taken place, or even thinking about cities like Berlin, Warsaw and Moscow where horrible things happened and yet no doubt people eat, sleep etc on those sites or even the same rooms. On the other hand, I have no idea where the murderer is, are they still in gaol, or have they died and this those bug me and gives me pause for thought.

What are your thoughts?

Poll Options expired

  • 301
    Yes
  • 177
    No
Home & Garden

Comments

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 10/09/2023 - 21:58

      The law applies to all parties, so yes a landlord would need to disclose material matters to a prospective tennants.

      • godofpizza on 11/09/2023 - 11:02

        not really, just checked out our Property manager and only have to declare if it within the last 5 years.

        The Rental Provider Disclosure statment includes variations items ( for level of minial standard), but the interesting part is that it's limited to only 5 years:

        "Has the rented premises or common property been the location of a homicide in the last 5 years?"

        • SupeNintendoChalmers on 11/09/2023 - 14:02

          What state is this law from? Do you have a link?

          • godofpizza on 11/09/2023 - 16:11

            @SupeNintendoChalmers: Victoria,

            here's any example of what a proposed LL would need to provide (as minimal standards).

            chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.keithwilliams.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/DISCLOSURE-STATEMENT.pdf

            • SupeNintendoChalmers on 11/09/2023 - 16:13

              @godofpizza: Legislation is a bit vague here, and honestly, I've never rented in my life. I assume that renters are given a document similar to a section 32? Really, a REA worth their salt should include this in the documentation, lazier\craftier REAs would probably tell you once they've reeled you in a bit.

  • duchy on 10/09/2023 - 20:47

    That would make an ideal investment property then!

  • cenakhoa on 10/09/2023 - 21:57
    +1

    If you are afraid of ghosts, just pretend to speak another language when you meet them. Worked for me many times

    • mandelbrot on 11/09/2023 - 22:22

      I do this for people irl

  • derrida derider on 10/09/2023 - 22:44
    +3

    Aborigines in Australia arrived over 50,000 years ago. Population oscillated wildly, but lets say it averaged only a million people over the continent. Average age of childbirth was about 25. So that makes 2000 generations of a million people each, which is TWO BILLION skeletons spread over this land - more concentrated, of course, in the more fertile parts where we whitefellas also tend to live.

    The point is that if you are worried about living where there have been deaths, including violent deaths (hunter-gatherer societies always have a lot of tribal warfare), then you should probably seek to live on another planet. If ghosts existed they would be everywhere.

    OP forget about it - pick up that bargain.

  • Seni0r El Cheapo on 10/09/2023 - 23:22

    I'd not even consider it an issue.

  • capslock janitor on 11/09/2023 - 01:29

    As it currently stands with the poll, you'd have 37% of current buyers who wouldn't purchase that house,63 would

    • zbys on 13/09/2023 - 10:34
      +1

      Which means your potential future sale audience is going to be reduced by 37%, unless you can argue why the information has become immaterial. That's a pretty significant figure, to put it into perspective (US figures as that's what I found quickly): Kung and Seagle (1992) found that while half of those surveyed considered transmission lines an ''eyesore,'' most (72%) said they have no effect on sales price.

      A 2018 study from the Journal of Real Estate Research found that vacant lots near high-voltage power lines sell for 44.9% less than equivalent lots that aren’t located near power lines. If you take a step back, a lot that is located within 1,000 feet of transmission lines tends to sell for 17.9% less.

      In short, the effect of a previous homocide has a stronger effect than power lines apparently, and the impact of power lines near properties on pricing is certainly non trivial.

      This means you should certainly be pushing for a reduction in price for similar comparables, as you will likely wear this on any future resale too.

      Edit: Would not bother me in the slightest to buy there, as long as I got a fair price. It's exceedingly unlikely the initial murder was a psycho just walking into a particular house and killing the inhabitants, so why would they care about you?

  • Rear CreviceEruption on 11/09/2023 - 07:15
    +2

    I lived in a house on a block where, millions of years ago, a tyrannosaurus rex bit the heads off 17 pterodactyls and stomped on their wings. The history of violence didn't bother me while I was there.

  • singlemalt72 on 11/09/2023 - 07:38

    It's all in your head, if you cannot cope, do not buy. There is no risk of haunting, demonic interference or other supernatural forces.
    It is a house.

  • lonewolf on 11/09/2023 - 10:06

    If you are getting a good deal on the house then maybe consider it, but if its the going rate, then i would pass it up as it may always weigh on your mind.

  • tux3602 on 11/09/2023 - 10:08
    +2

    People die everywhere. Who cares? Unless you're silly enough to believe in ghosts. Once you're gone, you're gone. Worse things have happened in that hotel bed you sleep in,.

  • jaimex2 on 11/09/2023 - 10:13

    I reckon someone has already put in a higher offer than you so don't worry about it.

    You're also making up the disclosure obligations, don't know why.

    • Ok computer on 12/09/2023 - 20:05

      Yes I didn't think there were disclosures obligations. In NSW the agents are obliged to tell you what they know if they are expressly asked. Which in my experience means very little. Standard response was something like, nothing has been reported by the vendors.

  • Chrool on 11/09/2023 - 10:20
    +1

    I would say it depends on the circumstances of the murders. Serial killing? - nope. gangland murder? yeah why not. and you might find something valuable in the walls..

  • sardines on 11/09/2023 - 10:46

    I live in a house that was one of the first in the suburb (previous farm house) that the front room was used to view and display bodies of recently deceased. Only saw some weird stuff after transplant and ICU etc but nothing scary or i would consider threatening — Think more side effects of medication and stressed mind - though think something helped me while almost dying at home or me just assigning hallucinations to keep calm… I dont see a problem unless there are living relatives that still hang around the area

  • TimmyTims on 11/09/2023 - 10:49

    For me it depends;
    If I am buying as an investment, no. It would make it harder to sell in the future

    If I am buying as my PPOR for 5+ years then yes. Use the history to drive the price as low as you can. During inspections walk around tutting about the bad vibes and how much work it will take to get the Chi right again

  • curtturtle on 11/09/2023 - 10:50

    What's the address we could sleuth the info for you.

  • curtturtle on 11/09/2023 - 10:52

    My dad's house that I grew up in had an interesting history including someone being executed in the front room. People say they have seen weird stuff in the house. I think it just makes for cool stories and so on. Wouldn't stop me from buying.

  • Lentiki on 11/09/2023 - 10:58

    If you are asking about whether to buy a house with such a history, aren't you worried that down the track, when you go to sell the house, prospective buyers will have the same reservations??

    I'd only buy it if it was significantly discounted.

  • Drakesy on 11/09/2023 - 11:18

    Meh, homes these days are in such demand i'd just buy it.
    Unless you really feel about bad juju/feng shui etc…
    My mum is asian and she's firmly in the wouldn't touch with a barge pole camp.

  • dontboopthesnoot on 11/09/2023 - 11:22

    yeah nah

  • abently on 11/09/2023 - 12:28

    I'm pretty sure he's said it the going rate for that house and location….

    If that's the case, I would pass on it personally.

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 11/09/2023 - 12:43

      Hard to say. Some comparable homes in the area nudge past the $2mil mark. These homes are really nicely landscaped and maintained, whereas this home is more a fixer upper, needs at least $150K chucked in to replace floors and reno two bathrooms and paint, this house is around $100-200K lower than these homes, and my initial thought was its cheaper, cause it needs more work done.

      • abently on 11/09/2023 - 17:26
        +1

        For no real discount and forever in the back of your mind, find something else. Interest rates aren't coming down for a while yet (i.e. less competition), so you have time on your side.

  • DingoBilly on 11/09/2023 - 13:26

    Why would anyone care?

    I'd probably pause and look into it if there was a double homicide with the last person who owned it, but 20 years ago? It's irrelevant.

  • May4th on 11/09/2023 - 13:49

    I would look at it from a purely investment perspective - much like if the house was on a main road. When you sell it it's going to remove at least 50% of the buyer pool (or 38% from the poll currently 120/310) the same way you are umming and ahhing currently. Are you getting a great deal for it? If it's a maybe? I'd say no it's not worth it.
    If it's an owner occupied property, only you can tell us whether you are comfortable - but judging from the fact it's bothered you enough to make a post on a public forum I'd say it's probably not worth the stress, especially if it's only a 10% discount on comparable properties

  • 191919 on 11/09/2023 - 14:17

    imo this is a bonus, maybe you can get the place at a discount

    who gives a shit about the past

  • misu p on 11/09/2023 - 14:35

    I would buy it, but I do not think you should if you are asking us this kind of question.

  • wannagrababargain on 11/09/2023 - 14:50

    You need to assess what its worth to YOU. There are probably other buyers who such a fact wouldn't faze at all. In the scheme of things it doesn't affect the structural integrity or liveability so really don't think it would affect price that much.

  • SupeNintendoChalmers on 11/09/2023 - 15:46

    I hit a brick wall.

    Because the defendant had a mental health issue, and was impaired, the court sealed the verdict… and thats it. I do not know and cannot find anything else. This is based on impaired mental functioning as defined in section 10A of the Sentencing Act 1991 (Vic)

    Basically, the law states that even if a person is impaired mentally, the sentence is still the same as if the person was mentally stable.
    "The court cannot impose a court secure treatment order for a period longer than the term of imprisonment that the court would have otherwise imposed".

    Considering the Victorian system works that each murder charger is a separate, and that Offenders suffering from a mental condition are gaoled on average, 22 years, 6 months for murder, would lead me to believe that the person will be either be in gaol or a mental house for at least 25 more years.

    https://www.sentencingcouncil.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files…

    • mandelbrot on 11/09/2023 - 22:26
      +2

      Why would you assume the penalty for a double homicide is twice the penalty for a single homicide? Changes are they are served concurrently, so the murderer should be coming out soon, if not already ;)

  • pformag on 11/09/2023 - 15:53

    Meh, death is death.

  • Cluster on 11/09/2023 - 16:12
    +1

    You know the address, how many people were killed, and when. Should be a very quick Google search to find out all the details, if you want to know where/how it happened.

    Would I buy the house? Probably. I don't believe in ghosts/spirits/etc. The only thing giving me pause is a future buyer asking the very same questions as you are, and asking for a knock down price.

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 11/09/2023 - 16:39
      +1

      You know the address, how many people were killed, and when. Should be a very quick Google search to find out all the details,

      On the contrary, one article that led me down a dead end.

  • FezMonkey on 11/09/2023 - 16:12
    -1

    There is a documentary about this topic from 2012: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1922777/

  • love2buy on 11/09/2023 - 17:30

    I wonder if you rent this out, do you have to disclose this?

  • zeoko on 11/09/2023 - 18:58
    -1

    Hey OP. Be at peace man. I won't come again to this house. Relax!

  • xavster on 11/09/2023 - 19:09

    Personally, I would not buy.

    I don't believe in ghosts or any of that stuff, but as an investor, I know other people believe it and thus will reduce resale value of the property in the future.

    You could do knock-down rebuild but there is still some risk there.

    If you intend to live there long term, and don't care about resale value, and can get it cheap, then go for it.

  • Willy Beamish on 11/09/2023 - 19:37

    If you like the house go for it, will make for a killer Halloween story

  • KaTst3R on 11/09/2023 - 19:49

    If you have to ask, that means a No. You cant even get over the fact this opportunity has a history by starting a thread online. You wont be having a good sleep once you make the purchase.

    The right owner are the ones who ignore the history and makes an offer straight away on the phone.

  • duncanallin on 11/09/2023 - 20:43

    Go for it! I have a friend who bought an apartment that someone had died in. She has had no problems, the apartment had a good reno and its good as new. If anything it will make for a good story!

  • infinite on 11/09/2023 - 22:36

    The majority of all natural deaths in Australia occur in a persons home.

    You'd be a complete peanut to not buy a house because someone croaked in it.

  • furyou on 11/09/2023 - 23:01

    I would but not to live in.
    Rent it out.

  • ShortyX on 11/09/2023 - 23:28
    +2

    Plot twist - OP is the murderer.

    • xavster on 12/09/2023 - 10:13

      that's one way to low-key buy a cheap house.

  • hopper on 12/09/2023 - 07:54

    As investment yes, as home no

  • johnfuller on 12/09/2023 - 08:38

    i like how your asking others as if were the ones living there

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 12/09/2023 - 11:47
      +1

      Always good to sound off opinions from total strangers, you usually get throw questions and ideas you might have never thought of.

  • JafferMoney on 12/09/2023 - 09:24

    Are you SURE it's in a 'good' suburb…?

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 12/09/2023 - 11:46

      Overall murder rates in this suburb is less than 1/2 of the state average, so are BnEs.

  • kalithreaver on 12/09/2023 - 10:39

    depends on if you get bothered by the people who stare at you from the dark corners at night. they never seem to approach so it should be ok.

  • Trying2SaveABuck on 12/09/2023 - 10:48
    +1

    If you go back far enough most houses would have someone die in them or be built on ground someone has died on

  • lainey13 on 12/09/2023 - 11:41

    Depends on the discount…is $100k off enough to put your mind at ease? Maybe it's only $20k and not enough?

    • SupeNintendoChalmers on 12/09/2023 - 11:45
      +1

      If I could get $100K off, basically it moves my projected retirement age from 55 to around 51, so yes, that's tempting. Once again, not a brag, just very fortunate and privileged that a few good decisions, lots of hard work (I grew up in a very poor family) and a bit of luck has come my way.

      • May4th on 12/09/2023 - 12:32

        it's not really the 100k off that's the issue here. you'd expect some form of discount given the history. if that 100k off turns into 300k less when you sell in 5/10/20 years, is that 100k discount still worth it? and no one has a crystal ball so it's purely speculation

        • SupeNintendoChalmers on 12/09/2023 - 13:08
          +2

          Our next property, wherever it will be is long term, basically our last home, so not taking this decision lightly.
          Another requirement has been the potential subdivision down the track. This property is on the Melbourne 2050 growth boundary, I have a fair degree of confidence that area will eventually become low\medium density.

          The point is not to make mega profits, rather to allow my kids the ability to build a home for themselves after subdivision, as I already know they have next to zero chance of buying a reasonably sized home by the time they become adults.

  • IMadeYouReadThis on 12/09/2023 - 13:16

    I won't mind living in it but hopefully rich Asian buyers will stay away from it so it may be a win for you as you can negotiate better price :)

  • miicah on 12/09/2023 - 13:24

    Are you scared they are going to come back and murder you too?

    What's the actual issue here?

    • Oz em on 12/09/2023 - 22:16
      -1

      This is a real risk!

  • dealboot on 12/09/2023 - 14:12

    No, unless you are saving at least 10%(200k) off.

  • Aneurism on 12/09/2023 - 17:06

    Plot Twist: The criminal committed the double homicide because intruders were entering and squatting on his property.

  • GrimCheaper on 12/09/2023 - 20:50

    Go for it. Can you do a knock down rebuild? That might hopefully dispell any bad juju.

  • Oz em on 12/09/2023 - 22:15

    Does your local library keep records on houses?
    Mine did and the $1.7mil house I grew up in was previously owned by the garbage collector and prior to us their child died of an asthma attack but not in the home.

  • SuperLate on 13/09/2023 - 00:51

    {quote} There's no piece of land on this Earth where no-one has died before {unquote}.

  • supanaut on 13/09/2023 - 10:01

    Ask the agent if you can spray some Luminol https://www.amazon.com.au/Crime-Scene-Bluestar-Luminol-Singl… in the rooms to see if there is any residue left after 20 years? If there is spatter everywhere, I would stay clear. If not, I wouldn't have a problem living there.

  • offthetap on 13/09/2023 - 10:05

    ask the seller for a 25% mass murder discount

    • OzBarAnon on 13/09/2023 - 10:27
      +2

      Mass murder is 3 or more fatalities. This is only a double homicide. Sorry, but doesn't qualify for the discount.

  • SupeNintendoChalmers on 13/09/2023 - 11:03
    +7

    Possibly the final update.

    We've decided not to proceed on making an offer, inspection etc.

    As the old Proverb goes, 'A house divided cannot stand'.

    I'm in favour of proceeding with the purchase, but Mrs Chalmers cannot accept that she'll ever be comfortable living her years in that home. We talked about in length, but at the end of the day I respect her feelings and beliefs, as she does for mine. Because we're not in one accord, we will not proceed.

    Thank you everyone for contributing. It's been a fascinating discussion and great to hear all the arguments for and against and things I didn't even consider when approaching this.

    • zbys on 14/09/2023 - 21:45

      Sounds like the right outcome to me. When looking at houses I've always been of the opinion that I can't prevent others from making a mistake, but I should prevent myself from making one. Always meant I was prepared to walk away. Years later checked up on a few places I did walk away from to be massively validated (e.g. hot auction subsequently led to the new owner selling the property a few years later for a 6 figure loss). Can be tough mentally at the time, but better in the long run!

    • Morien on 14/09/2023 - 23:20

      Ah. Had I known there was a MRS Chalmers, I might have responded differently. Good decision.

      Guess I WON'T be seeing you soon…

    • lpn on 16/09/2023 - 00:01

      I purchased a property that was a "deceased estate", I am not sure if the owner passed away in the home or not but I definitely used that to bargain the price down and rented it out. Even though, I try not to believe in the bad juju but your mind does play tricks on you, I wouldn't personally be comfortable purchasing or living in a house with a homicide. Just the thought of what had happened a the house would keep me up at night.

      Good decision OP!

      • peteru on 18/09/2023 - 00:52
        +1

        We also bought a deceased estate. Didn't ask the real estate agent any questions about the details because it was not something that we considered material. We did talk to the neighbours before buying. Not about the property or previous occupants, but to see if we'd get along with them and to get a feel for the sense of community in the street. We went ahead with the purchase because the neighbours on both sides, as well as those on the other side of the road were really nice (and long term turned out to be great friends) and the street had great community spirit.

        Over the years at least half the properties in our street have changed hands & prices went through the roof. Even with such a high turnover, some community spirit still remains. Not as many street events as there used to be, but we still get about 1/3 of the residents turning up to the Christmas BBQ in the park at the bottom of the hill and have both adult and children's street libraries that are in constant use.

        In my books a good neighbourhood with people you can connect to is a valuable thing to have when you are moving in for the long haul. Even more so when you have kids that are going to grow up in that street, interacting with those neighbours.

        I'd be a bit hesitant to move into a neighbourhood where everyone gives you the cold shoulder when you try to strike up a conversation as the prospective buyer.

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