The forum discussion below has moved me to create this poll.
https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/814617
The bank has asked you to return it. What do you do? And apparently the bank has given you the option not to return it informing you it was an error EFT transaction.
Please try not to allow virtue signalling to colour your poll choice. As I am genuinely interested in the ‘real’ situation.
Thanks.
Where is "Muzeeb" on this one?
I had someone incorrect transfer $43k into one of my accounts (Hiver) due to the likely messy BSB & Acc set up.
I didn't notice it for a few days as I only used the account for the 5% cash back and was in the process of binning it after they removed the perk and I'm guessing the person was just thinking it was taking a while to go across from his/her other bank to their Hiver acc.
I raised it as an error and days went past with no response or anything. Eventually it got reversed out, no permission asked etc and my messages to Hiver remained without a response.
So yeah I personally would raise any errors and not hold onto the money but I feel like unless the person drains their account, the bank can just reverse it without going into all the permissions if it was indeed an error.
but I feel like unless the person drains their account, the bank can just reverse it
If was a bank error or fraudulent transfer they will reverse it regardless.
Now your account is negative $43k and they will be charging interest, probability at a high rate.
Not your money. And you can been charged by the police for keeping it.
Would always return.
So you're saying I get free accommodation with the $350. Sounds like a bargain.
free accomodation and free food
Also free sexy-times.
Nothing to do with the police. It would be a civil matter.
If you knowingly keep it for interest or even spend it, your charge would be dealing with tainted money.
At least send a message to bank and question it!
Wrong, it’s theft.
It's not, it has jumped the shark to become a criminal matter. The money wasnt given to them through a transaction gone bad, and there are no "finders keepers" laws.
If you keep something that isnt yours that was given to yon in error, and refuse to return it if asked, this is theft and is a criminal matter.
https://www.armstronglegal.com.au/criminal-law/nsw/offences/….
Larceny is the crime of taking property or money that belongs to another, regardless of value. The High Court defined larceny in the leading case of Ilich v R in 1987:
“A person steals who, without the consent of the owner, fraudulently and without a claim of right made in good faith, takes and carries away anything capable of being stolen with intent, at the time of such taking, permanently to deprive the owner thereof.”
Section 117 of the Crimes Act 1900 states the maximum punishment for larceny is a maximum of 5 years imprisonment. The maximum penalty is 2 years if the matter is dealt with in the Local Court
@CowFrogHorse: Citing statute to prove a point…. When it actually proves this isn't theft.
There was no act of taking involved here.
If you give me something then change your mind, I haven't stolen it.
@Maxi Pad: read the rest of the page:
What Police Must Prove
There are seven elements that must be proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, for a court to find a person guilty of larceny.
The four physical elements are that a person:
took and carried away;
property capable of being stolen;
which belonged to another;
without the consent of the owner.
The three mental elements are that a person acted:
the last 3 bullet points…
@Maxi Pad: maxi: If you give me something then change your mind, I haven't stolen it.
cow: never claimed that you did.. not sure where you are going with this…
your reply is completely out of the spirit of the OP question.
Its as problem, because it could be construed as a scam. What if someone contacts you, asks you to transfer the money back then they do a charge back and now youve lost $350, i would just wait for the bank to sort it out for you. If nothing comes of it within 6 months then its your money to do what you will with it.
If nothing comes of it within 6 months then its your money to do what you will with it.
I tried that once… It didn't work… They took the money back after a year.
jv you dawg
I'd let the bank know and have them sort it out. I wouldn't be doing any transfers myself.
Exactly
Read between the lines, it is no longer a mistake you weren't aware of…the bank has contacted you advising they are aware of the error and notifying you that the money has been transferred in error and does not belong to you.
Sure they ask are you happy for them to reverse it/correct the error at this time. With your permission they can do that immediately.
If you say no than you are now knowingly taking possession of money you know not to belong to you, the bank will simply go the route of receiving approval via the necessary means to go ahead with the reversal anyways, that may result in additional costs or charges being passed on.
Advise them you acknowledge the error and have them make the transaction to remove it from the account as mentioned above.
Opting not to do this with all the reporting these days, don't be surprised if it negatively impacts future banking/finance requests
The bank has asked you to return it. What do you do?
Return it.
Because according to the law it is not your money and now that you've told the whole world you know it's not your money, you deciding to keep it now qualifies as theft.
Is $350 worth the stress of every day knowing that at any time the cops could knock on your door and arrest you?
You're not getting arrested over that unless they've got a bee in their bonnet about something else; maybe your name is K Langker. Most likely you would be given a complaint and summons, if anything. It's a whole lot of paperwork to arrest a cleanskin over something like this.
I used to work in recalls/recoveries. There were hundreds of cases daily where the recipient doesn't return the funds and polive never ever got involved. Not saying they cant, but very unlikely unless its a ridiculous amount.
There were hundreds of cases daily where the recipient doesn't return the funds and polive never ever got involved. Not saying they cant, but very unlikely unless its a ridiculous amount.
Interesting. What would you say the threshold is? Asking for a friend…
Could you share a little more insight into your experiences? Any estimate on how many of those were resolved without police involvement? Were they all just unresolved with someone left high and dry?
I would allow the bank to reverse it & hope if I made the same error, the other party would do the same.
If Rupert Murdoch made the mistake and accidentally transferred me the money, I'd keep it. That dude cost us FTTH NBN, the least he can do is give me $350.
Every time I get one of my micro-outages on HFC (1 or 2 each day), I think of LNP and Murdoch lol
Plot twist:
Gerry Harvey's money.
Me: What money?
All in at Sportsbet, and return it back after. easy PROFITTTTTTT
I once had a bookie deposit $12k in my account instead of the $400 I had withdrawn. I rang them to let them know and they were pretty disinterested. A day later someone rang me and was a real douche about it and carrying on as if I was a thief. I told em to calm their farm and pointed out I had already tried telling them about their mistake but they weren't interested. After I transferred it back to them they gave me $500 though so it worked out for me in the end.
That was nice of them to give you a cut, I expect most are (profanity)
I rang them to let them know and they were pretty disinterested.
I doubt that. I suspect they were uninterested. Which is something completely different to being disinterested.
My case was a winning horse bet and turned to negative balance after the race result changed. Withdrawn the money, my account was negative for a week but they reset it to zero.
To me, that's a baggie right there. But to someone else, that could mean a week of their family's groceries. I'd ask the bank to reverse it out as quickly as possible so that it can be returned it to it's rightful owner.
Pleased to see you return it asap so their night out isn't ruined!
There are plenty of food banks but no bump pantries.
but no bump pantries.
There is at my place! 😂
Doing the lord’s work as a community amateur pharmacist.
@Chandler: Just a couple of jokes and silliness that play on the idea that for some $350 is the food budget, but others would spend it on drugs. And how society has a food pantry to help those without food, but no cocaine pantries to help those going without drugs.
I had money accidentally appear in my bank which I didn't try to return (the transfer note implied it was some kind of payment for a new Years Eve event), however if the bank actually asked for it then for sure I would.
The reason I didn't return the accidental deposit was mostly that I would have had to do all the work in contacting the bank to try to give someone else back their money, which was just too much effort given that they apparently weren't even chasing the incorrect payment themselves. If I just had to respond to a request to repay with a yes or no, however, there's no universe where I wouldn't agree to that.
Stealing by finding is against the law.
If you find some money in your bank account you need to take reasonable steps to return it to the rightful owner.
In NSW the maximum penalty includes jail time.
I knew there must be a reason our prisons are overflowing with first time offenders finding trivial amounts of money in their bank accounts.
Jail time for this? Yeah, right.
They used to send you to Australia for stealing a handkerchief. Property crimes have very high maximum sentences.
My point is, it is like breaking the speed limit. There isn’t a question it is illegal, and there are possible penalties.
Can you motivate the cops to take action in this case? It would probably be hard, but I bet if it was the station commanders kid, questions would be asked.
In practice this doesn't happen. The receiving account is asked to return and if they don't nothing is done in terms of follow up. The sending customer is left to fight it out with their bank possibly via AFCA.
Years ago I received a "tax refund" of a significant amount of money in my bank account from the ATO. I advised them I hadn't claimed any such a refund, and returned it. A while later it came back. So this time I went to the ATO office and told them it wasn't mine. They told me that, well, it had been claimed by someone, and a decision had been made that it should be paid, so it'd save them a lot of trouble if I'd just accept it. So I did, but made sure there was a note in my file that I didn't think it was mine and if they ever decided it wasn't I'd be happy to return it. They never did.
How much was this significant amount?
Sounds like a scam, talk to your bank in person.
AUD$10.5 million was mistakenly transferred to Thevamanogari Manivel's bank account in May 2021.
The couple allegedly spent the funds on four houses, vehicles, and other assets, and transferred around $4 million AUD to a Malaysian bank account. One of the properties, a five-bedroom house in Craigieburn, was sold for $1.27 million AUD.
Manivel was arrested in March 2022 while attempting to board a flight to Malaysia with close to $11,000 in cash and was sentenced to a 18-month community corrections order, including six months of intensive compliance and unpaid community work. She had already spent 209 days in custody prior to the sentencing. Singh, on the other hand, is set to face a plea trial on October 23, 2023, for theft charges.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/sep/24/a-cry…
with a sentence so low one wonders why white collar crimes are out of control!
2 years sentence for 10 mill. Be worth it tbh
You don’t get to keep the money (well sometimes you do with white collar crime!)
I can't see how there can be any justification for not returning money that was paid accidentally when asked. To me if the bank asks you to return it and you refuse that is the same as theft and should be treated as as such, with referral to police if required
I can see if you are living week to week on not much money then keeping the $350 could be rationalised by wanting the best for your family.
Due to privacy laws it would be hard for the bank to disclose the name of the unattended recipient in order for the son (in the original forum post) to seek a remedy.
It really isn’t up to the bank to investigate and ask for stat decs to determine if the initial claim that the EFT account info was incorrect.
I think the son (in the original forum post) as well as the unattended recipient are both to blame for the $350 not ending up where it should have ended up.
My 2c.
One could use that logic to justify any form of theft or criminal activity if one need the money
Well it depends on the level of need to make the logic work.
Eg. I will be thrown out of my home or I won’t be able to afford medication for my child’s health… etc.
Doesn’t really work if you need the money towards a new iPhone.
depends on the circumstances,
$345 i wouldn't notify them, nor would I spend it would just stay there until I get notified.
$345,000 well that's going straight into my offset and will return it when I get contacted by the bank
$3,450,000 definitely not enough to go to jail for.
$345,000,000, that's a flight straight to a non-extradition country with new identities (i'm not that lucky)
Unless you want a family photo with number on your chest like the Beagle Boys you better do the right thing.
Return the monies. Ask for any charges you could have suffer to be refunded.
Keeping is theft and, depending who is behind (the real owner of those funds), you could be prosecuted until the proverbial cows come home.
Morally? Would you like to be in their shoes? … the losing party that is.
Reality check: if I found $XX on the road/street/beach and there is not a chance on earth to find the owner, then yes I will happily keep those $XX.
However … if those $XX are tens of thousands then I will honestly try to find the owner. Yes, even reporting the find to a police station.
You got the jv cancer
You must know.
How does it feel?
How is it going so far?
mate return it. It could be someone that transferred to you in error
It was transferred in error.
I posted the original forum posting.
It's not my money, so I'll inform the bank.
This is a simple matter, so not sure why we need a poll and a discussion.
And apparently the bank has given you the option not to return it informing you it was an error EFT transaction.
This is not really how it works.
The 'option not to return it' is for you to lie and say 'No that was a legitimate transaction, do not reverse it.'
It's not an 'option', it's theft.
That’s a good point.
I would tell the bank and forget about it. But I'm lucky that $350 would not be that much, I could understand someone in a worse position not reporting it.
However you run the risk that you spend it and then a few weeks later your acc suddenly goes negative.
$350 is not worth my integrity Lol. If the cost of someone's integrity is $350 that person is probably a scumbag and a failure.
Integrity
You either have it or you do not.
Return it. Fate may have you is the same but reversed position. Think how you would feel dropping that amount/any amount today?
Or… for some, it may mean eating or not that week/month, kids, medical, rent, all sorts and for some, any amount may be devastating to go astray.
Regardless who made the mistake…. it is Australian to do the Right thing!
I'd like to think it would cost more than $350 to buy my conscience
yes I would return it, I am not a lowlife criminal and my personal ethics would kick in knowing I would be stealing someone elses money (yes it is stealing when you refuse to return it).
Not my money
Definitely yes, but if its 350mil then no.
You clearly received the goods or money by mistake. Not trying to return it is a crime. Google theft by finding etc.
If this wasnt a crime, then everyone would say they found it when they actually stole it or some other activity.
https://www.armstronglegal.com.au/criminal-law/nsw/offences/….
Larceny is the crime of taking property or money that belongs to another, regardless of value. The High Court defined larceny in the leading case of Ilich v R in 1987:
“A person steals who, without the consent of the owner, fraudulently and without a claim of right made in good faith, takes and carries away anything capable of being stolen with intent, at the time of such taking, permanently to deprive the owner thereof.”
Section 117 of the Crimes Act 1900 states the maximum punishment for larceny is a maximum of 5 years imprisonment. The maximum penalty is 2 years if the matter is dealt with in the Local Court
Inform bank and let bank sort it out.
I would but I'm not going to tell them that they made an error. It is there responsibility to get it back.
Please read and decide
A customer Bee hires a Mercedes Benz Class C from a hire company H and requests them to park the car at his residence Unit 10D, Wereturn Court, Saintvale and leave the key in the letterbox.
When H inputs the address in the cars navigation system, due to a beta update 17.1.1a, the address changes to 10B, Noreturn Court, Taintvale in the same state. H drives the car there and parks it at 10B and leaves the key inside the 10B's letterbox.
Dee, House owner of 10B, finds the key later and surprisingly but happily hangs it in his living room.
Next day Bee calls H and asks why the car isn't at his residence 10C yet ! H replies that it was parked at his residence 10B last night but soon it became clear that it was parked at 10B instead of 10D.
Bee realises that he provided wrong address and the correct address is unit 10C, Youturn Court, Faintvale and that there is no Unit 10D, no Wereturn court and no Saintvale suburb in this state.
After clarification, H goes back to Dee and asks to return the keys of Benz C as it was parked there by mistake. Dee refuses to return the keys. H calls Bee and says "since you provided the wrong address, the car is now parked at a wrong address not provided by you."
Bee says "Benz C doesn't belong to Dee and is legally belongs to me as per car hire agreement".
But the fact is that C is parked at B instead of C because there's no D.
Should Dee return the car to H ?
Who does the C belongs to ?
Who's mistake is it ?
My verdict:
OP, later: I accidentally sent money to the wrong account but they won't return it. What do? No virtue signalling plz.
My experience:
Partner got scammed by someone selling tickets. Normal bank to bank transfer (in this case, Bankwest to Bankwest).
$350 roughly transfered, once she realised the scam (wrong pickup address provided), contacted Bankwest and asked to reverse transaction. Bankwest took over a month to investigate and eventually reversed payment of a total of $2.50, saying the recipient refused reversing the full amount.
So unfortunately, its not that simple.
This is standard. BW would have to write to the other bank asking for the funds back and it can take weeks to get a response.
Just out of curiosity; how does the bank want the money returned in this case? Online transfer?
Yeah I would. Banks can be absolute pricks. I wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of them wanting to make an example out of someone, namely me.
I deal with this stuff regularly in my job.
Usually there's someone at the other end who has made an error and typed in the wrong account number. Currently banks only match the BSB and account number, not the account name (likely to change soon due to the huge amount of fraud and scamming going on that takes advantage of this). Therefore if you type the wrong number and it matches someone else the transfer will complete. You might say bad luck, should have checked it properly, but if you know you've received funds that are not yours then in my view you should give the money back.
Ultimately the bank probably won't do much about it if you don't return it. The issue isn't really the receiving bank's problem and it wouldn't be worth their time to pursue you. The person on the other end has likely lodged a complaint with their bank who would have to prove they weren't at fault in any way if it went to AFCA. They probably weren't at fault, as this sort of thing is almost always down to customer error. But over $350 many banks would rather just pay than endure the painful and quite costly AFCA process.
I've seen people hang on to much bigger amounts than this and get away with it, but I doubt they are the sort of people I'd ever want to know. It does surprise me they aren't pursued more, as holding funds after you've been made aware they weren't meant for you is basically theft.
I had an auction house accidently transfer money to me that wasn't mine. I emailed them highlighting the error and was asked to transfer the money back to them. The money wasn't meant for me so it would have been wrong to keep it, as well as being illegal.
Love a freebie, but wouldn't try to keep it, wouldn't try to return it either.
Would allow easy recovery/reversal by leaving the amount in the account.
Someone goofed and I'm expected to take action to get rid of the free money? Madness!
There was a case in aus where a lady had a few million dep into her acc by accident. She spent it all in a flash and went overseas to avoid being pursude by the law
At this point, I'm sick of big corporations being the only ones to benefit from these situations. Big businesses got COVID payments that they did not need and kept the money. As someone who is struggling, I cant keep turning down opportunities, in the past I would give it back but not anymore.
hodl
I would because you never know the other persons situation and we are comfortable. Wouldn't transfer it back but would ask the bank to sort it out.
I'm not saying whether we should keep it or give it back.
But it's kind of annoying if we're obligated to notify them, hold the money for them. If someone intermingled their funds with mine (even though by accident) and legally forced the responsibility on me to hold those funds and return it to them I'd be mighty annoyed.
It could be argued I don't need to do anything and just need to wait for the money to be deducted, but this is my bank account. I don't use it to hold money for other people.
I am not sure. can we try it out?