Landlord Refuses to Pay Plumber Bill and Property Manager Is Asking Me to Pay It

TaurusHead on 04/12/2023 - 20:39
Last edited 05/12/2023 - 10:07 by 2 other users

So, last week I got the water coming out of all the drains from my apartment and started flowing into my bedrooms, I raised it up with the property manager and she eventually sent a plumber to have a look, this guy spent around 20 odd mins and next day the manager sent me an invoice of $350 saying the owner refused to pay it and now wants me to pay instead saying I should have maintained the drainage and my only argument is I should have been informed earlier if that's for me to pay.

What do you guys suggest here as myself and the owner are still going back and forth with these arguments?

Edit: Since I was asked for more info: The plumber suggested that the blockage was due to the hair and residue over the period of time and he just plunged it to get it out, it wasn't toilet though, and it seems like the blockage was in my apartment only.

And I've also suggested to meet the half way but he is being a bit adamant about it.

Poll Options

  • 101
    I'm supposed to pay?
  • 484
    The owner is liable to pay?
Home & Garden

Comments

    • FlyingMiffy on 07/12/2023 - 08:53

      OP has been there for 3 years…

  • Kranbone on 07/12/2023 - 01:14
    +1

    If it's something you've caused, ie, hair blocking a drain I could understand why the PM/owner would want you to fork out for it.

    Both you and the owner have a responsibility to maintain the property. It goes both ways.

  • hunter123 on 07/12/2023 - 02:20

    Go to the nsw tenants union or nsw fair trading if you're trying to clarify your rights vs obligations.

  • Piranha2004 on 07/12/2023 - 05:23

    Its classified as fair wear and tear so its the landlords responsibility

  • FlyingMiffy on 07/12/2023 - 08:52
    +1

    Hair and residue and the OP has been there for 3 years. And this kind of blockage never happens immediately either, drainage would have slowed down before the blockage occurred. Ive got 3 people with long hair in the house and cleaning the hair is a quarterly job at least. OP should have lodged a job when it was slowing down, because they didnt the landlord will probably have cause to even ask for damages to the flooring and carpet…

    • ttt888 on 07/12/2023 - 10:47
      +1

      Lodge a job and LL pays?
      Makes no sense right. I had to dislodge my drains every 6 mths off hair, and whatever crap from the soap etc etc… its part of maintaining your home, may it be rental or own home.

      I suspect many tenants thought a rental property is a full service apartment or hotel.

      • TiredKitty78 on 08/12/2023 - 02:11

        I think this is just one of those things that no one ever thinks about or knows needs to be done until it becomes an issue.
        Some people never encounter this issue, others do.

  • ttt888 on 07/12/2023 - 10:44

    Tenant wants full maintenance service? Is not a service apartment or hotel… Rent would be super sky high ie. 50% more than todays already high rental average.

    So tenant can simply dumped stuff into the drain or don't worry about it.
    While a typical homeowner would be wary since they know they have to pay.

  • onlinedeals on 07/12/2023 - 10:55
    +1

    I've been a landlord as well as a tenant and this is what I would focus on, who contributed to the problem. Kitchen and bathroom blockage happens every few years due to improper use and they don't get blocked overnight. If OP had lived at the apartment for 3 years, then it's most likely that the drainage was clear when handed over to them which means the build up of hair in the drainage was most likely the result of OP not properly disposing the hair. This can easily be unclogged with a few spoons of draino when you see slow running water.

    • kiwimex on 07/12/2023 - 12:07
      -3

      lol I've heard it all now……a few spoons of draino! you are better of throwing coins down the drain.

  • Ridiculous Panda on 07/12/2023 - 13:51
    +1

    This one is a bit of grey area..
    If I am the landlord and you were there for 3 years without causing me headaches with paying rent on time or stupid maintenance requests all the time, and also taking care of the property in general, I would just pay up.
    Are you a good tenant or do you cause trouble from time to time?

    • cunningdrew on 08/12/2023 - 13:11

      Finally, a good question here. Spot on.

  • paulojr on 07/12/2023 - 13:56
    -2

    No brainer, its on you as the tenant. Read the laws again.

  • whitepuma on 07/12/2023 - 14:51

    Both a landlord and a tenant here.

    This is one of those tough cases where it falls a bit in the middle.
    It's expected that the landlord repair and keep the property in compliance with building, health and safetys laws. This also includes repairing things that have broken etc.
    HOWEVER, it's also expected that the tenant doesn't neglect and continues to maintain the property.

    Something like hair clogging the drain can easily fall under the tenants fault, but if the problem goes deeper than that and there is more to it (such as clogs occur due to poor plumbing or fittings) then it might be on the landlord.

    Here's an example of a similar situation I went through with a tenant:
    - Tenant said 1 of the circuits kept shorting and needed an electrician to inspect and repair.
    - Electrician came and inspected. found the source of the problem, the tenant had accidently left a soldering iron on and melted into an extension lead, this caused shorting.
    - end result; it was the tenants fault, their neglect is the reason for the inspection and repair.
    HOWEVER, if the electrician showed up and found something had broken (lets say wear and tear of an outlet or house wiring), that would easily be an expense on me the landlord.

    My recommendation:
    ….it's a tough market right now, and based off of what you have told us it sounds like you have neglected this part of the property, i would just pay the $350 and learn my lesson. Although you can fight it, and even potentially win it or meeting somewhere in the middle (as they usually side with the tenant), it would just give the landlord a reason to do what they can to give you your 30 days notice. and that's not what you want in the current market.

    • meumax on 08/12/2023 - 09:39

      But how would you know if it was the tennants hair? Could easily have been building up for many years from previous tennants and it is just the poor current tennant who cops it. Should they have to pay for the negligence of all the previous tennants?

      I think the greater responsibility lies with the landlord. Landlord has to have the understanding that regular maintenance is required/these things will happen and either sees that it gets done, or sets aside money to fix the issues as they arise.

      • ozbs25 on 08/12/2023 - 09:46
        +1

        The tenant has been there many years already.

      • whitepuma on 08/12/2023 - 10:11

        Although its possible that the hair could have been from a previous tenant, it's irrelevant there is no proof to show it came from the previous tenant. The property is with the current tenant, it's expected that the current tenant maintain and keep it clean. IF however upon the tenant moving into the property they did an inspection and found that problem, and addressed it, then yes you're right the blame could fall back on the previous tenant and would lie with the landlord to fix.

        Unfortunately as a tenant you can't just come across any issue and if it gets directed back to you you then say "that was there by the previous tenant" , if you want to take the responsibility off of yourself you have to prove it….Much like how when the landlord wants to pass the blame onto the tenant they need to prove that it's some form of neglect or lack of maintenance.

        • meumax on 11/12/2023 - 10:59

          In this case, neither party can prove their case. That being the case, I still think the onus is on the owner to provide a habitable home. That is what the rent is paid for. You are paying for a service. That being a home that is liveable. Owners need to set aside part of this income for repairs as it is to be expected that repairs will be needed over time.

          My mums tenants asked her to replace the toilet roll holder in the bathroom. From previous inspections, it was obvious the reason it broke was because the tenant was forcing a huge oversized Costco value pack roll onto the holder designed for normal sized rolls. However this couldn't be proven. Mum just sucked it up and paid to have it replaced. Again, neither side can prove exactly what happend and as a good landlord she just repaired it as a toilet must have a toilet roll holder to function properly.

          • whitepuma on 11/12/2023 - 11:49

            @meumax:

            In this case, neither party can prove their case.

            That's not true, the landlord proved their case with the plumber explaining it was caused due to hair clogging it, which can only happen with neglect or lack of care or attention (at least according to fair trading), which falls under the onus of the tenant.

            My mums tenants asked her to replace the toilet roll holder in the bathroom. From previous inspections, it was obvious the reason it broke was because the tenant was forcing a huge oversized Costco value pack roll onto the holder designed for normal sized rolls

            How was it "obvious"? because if it was obvious and there was proof, your mum would have been well within her right to get the tenant to pay for the repair. However keep in mind there is a difference between what's within your rights and what's easier. If i had a good tenant, that accidently broke something on a 1 off occasion, and i could even prove it was due to neglect, and the repair was cheap (lets say under $200), i would probably just pay for the repairs myself just to keep the good tenant happy. It's not worth trying to excercising my rights over such a small amount with a good tenant.

            This TP example is not the same as the OP's case, because as mentioned in many previous comments, the hair in the drain is sufficient proof that the onus is on the tenant. If the tenant has some sort of proof to discredit that evidence, then I'm inclined to change my mind, but just using the argument of "prove that hair didn't come from the previous tenant" unfortunately doesn't hold water.

            I think you need to understand more about Burden of proof. The person or party who brings an action is said to bear the burden of proof.
            So, here's an example based on the OP's situation:
            - The Landlord says it's the tenants responsibility, so the landlord has the Burden of proof to prove it was due to neglect or tenants fault. The proof provided was evidence that there was hair stuck in there blocking it up (as provided by the feedback from the plumber), which can only come about as a result of neglect or malicious action. The landlord has now fulfilled their adequate proof.
            - The tenant now wants to say it's the previous tenants that cause this issue, or that it was a pre-existing issue, so the current tenant now has the Burden of proof to prove it was pre-existing or from the previous tenants. A good example of proving it was pre-existing is by having it covered in the incoming tenancy report. The current tenant has not provided such proof. The current tenant has not fulfilled adequate proof.
            -Based on the above, it still sits with the current tenant.

            • meumax on 19/12/2023 - 13:06
              -1

              @whitepuma: It was obvious. On previous visits we observed the oversized rolls squeezed on to the holder causing it to slightly deform.

              It must have eventually gave way. But as it didn't happen in front of us, there's no proof.

              All this stuff about proof isn't really relevant. Go read the VCAT decision someone posted a bit earlier covering a similar situation. It was considered fair wear and tear.

              What's relevant is if what the Tennant did is "fair wear and tear". Using the bathroom normally and not maliciously putting hair in the drain is normal usage. So if normal usage caused the issue, it must be the owner to fix.

              I don't accept the Tennant should have done preventative maintenance. Who here regularly check for hair build up when using bathroom normally?

              No, you'd use it normally and then if it clogs up, you'll pay a plumber to fix. Same scenario. Tennant use bathroom normally, clogs up. Plumber fixes.

              Owner pays because the tenant is paying for the provision of the service to have a working bathroom.

              • whitepuma on 19/12/2023 - 14:18

                @meumax:

                All this stuff about proof isn't really relevant.

                It definitely is relevant. When escalating it to tribunal (as i have in similar cases) this proof is ALL that is relevant, and dictates what direction it will go in. So read my previous comment about burden of proof.

                • meumax on 26/12/2023 - 15:15

                  @whitepuma: Irrelevant in the sense that, yes, it is likely it can be "proven" it is the tenants hair that caused the blockage.

                  BUT, that falls within normal wear and tear. It is normal for bits of hair to fall down the drain when using a bathroom in a normal fashion and there should be no obligation for the tenant to check for or clear blockages IF they were using it normally.

                  Now if they were deliberately stuffing hair down there, then, yes I agree they should pay. But not if they're just doing normal showers.

                  It's like furniture marks on carpet. It can be "proven" the tenants furniture caused the wear marks. But that is wear and tear using the carpet normally.

                  • whitepuma on 26/12/2023 - 19:18

                    @meumax: Oh wow a week later and you're still going.

                    I and my 10+ years of property management experience respectfully disagree with your understanding of "normal wear and tear" and burden of proof.

                    If you think this fall's under normal wear and tear, I really hope you increase your standard of cleanliness for your own sake if you were ever in this situation,

                    All the best. I'm done responding to this 3 week old post.

      • Drakesy on 08/12/2023 - 12:29
        +1

        The OP conceded that they'd been there for 3 years…

  • spixder on 07/12/2023 - 16:10
    -3

    Been in my place for 8yrs, never had a blocked drain as a result of hair, I wouldn't pay it unless they can prove that 100% of the hair belongs to you. My guess is that it has accumulated over a series of tenancy, who know the hair bundle may even contain those of the owner.

    • whitepuma on 08/12/2023 - 11:48

      You mustn't be ethnic….i've been in my place for 5 years, have had blocked drains as a direct result of hair, pulled the hair out of the drain myself….not a fun task.

      I've now put Rubber grate seals in any drains at risk, excellent as it means every couple of years you just pull the seal out and clean it out yourself then put it back in (rather than needing to call a plumber to clear a blocked drain)

    • Ridiculous Panda on 08/12/2023 - 13:15
      +2

      Are you bald by any chance?

  • TiredKitty78 on 08/12/2023 - 02:09
    +1

    This is kinda tricky to me…..but a lot less tricky once i work through it.

    Ok, you told the property manager and they got the plumber out, you cannot be residing in an apartment with plumbing failing.
    So that kinda reads to me like it's a them issue. They technically got the plumber out to deal with an issue with the apartment.

    saying I should have maintained the drainage and my only argument is I should have been informed earlier if that's for me to pay.
    Ask them to put that in writing, and show you in writing, with your original tenant agreement which you should have, where it details that active drain management and how, is your responsibility.

    The plumber suggested that the blockage was due to the hair and residue over the period of time and he just plunged it to get it out, it wasn't toilet though, and it seems like the blockage was in my apartment only.

    Ok, whatever, that stuff builds up, now you know like most us never do, that you probably want to draino the drains every month or three. BUT, get a report from the plumber. Ask the plumber whether they can 100% confirm the build up is related to you, your apartment, and for the duration you've been there. They likely cannot. Because unless you're the idiot pouring oil down the drains, this stuff might have been just building up for a while.

    I'd just be like yo, property manager, i called you because the apartment was leaking, and you made the decision a plumber was needed. I know you want me to pay, but please tell me where, and what active management of the drains was required in my original tenancy agreement. Perhaps i missed the part where there is an existing issue with the drains.
    The plumber said it was build up, but can he confirm what could and should have been done to avoid this issue, if possible? And can he confirm that it was due to my actions or inaction, rather then normal ''wear and tear' that tends to occur in living in a home.
    I am now happy to add $10 draino each second month to my cleaning routine, since we now know build up is an issue with these pipes.
    And in good faith, i'm willing - once off - to pay half of the $350 bill, since if this was my home, i'd be doing it regardless, and if the plumber said it was sludge build up, i'd find a way to avoid it in future and consider it a costly lessor learned.

    • TaurusHead on 08/12/2023 - 10:47
      -1

      Thanks for typing me an Excellent Email, what are you chatGPT? :)
      I can send this as it is to my manager.

      • TiredKitty78 on 15/12/2023 - 15:09
        +1

        What can i say bro? I write good.

  • meumax on 08/12/2023 - 09:35
    -1

    Impossible to prove whose hair was causing the blockage. Could have been build up from previous tennants for all we know. Therefore the landlord must pay to maintain.

    If you take it to NCAT/VCAT, tribunal member would laugh at owner and make them pay.

    • whitepuma on 08/12/2023 - 11:53

      that's irrelevant. where does it end then? It's also on the tenant to clean other things, like the oven, AC filters etc….what, they going to say "We never used the oven or AC, that dust/muck/grime must be from the previous tenant". It's on the current tenant to clean the property they are in.

      All tenants have an opportunity to find issues that they can blame on the owner/previous tenant, and that's during the incoming inspection.

      Of course there is a fine line between what falls under standard household repairs (which are the landlord's responsibility), and general cleanliness and upkeep (which falls under the tenant's responsibility). But blaming it on the previous tenant without any proof isn't the way to win this one…..

      • cunningdrew on 08/12/2023 - 13:08

        Yes, but when the tenant moves in they can see that the oven is cleaned. The AC being serviced is not an example as that is an owner responsibility.

        If the owner cannot show that the drains were professional cleaned and serviced prior to the tenant moving in then it is not the tenants responsibility.

        • whitepuma on 08/12/2023 - 14:21

          It's on the landlord to provide the property to an "acceptable and compliant standard". But on the initial inspection it's on the tenant to inspect and fill out the ingoing inspection form if anything isn't satisfactory that needs to be repaired…..That means that IF the tenant wants to inspect the pipes they can, IF the tenant wants to hire a building inspector, electrician, or plumber to do an ingoing inspection then they are welcome to, If the tenant misses those things then later down the track it's found that because of neglect those things need to be fixed, then it's on them. The owner doesn't need to show you that the drains were professionally cleaned.

          I think you need to understand where the "proof" lies. The "proof" that the landlord has that it's because of neglect by the tenant is because there is hair in the drain, and that's clarified by the plumber. Now, if the tenant wants to disprove that, they are welcome to, but it's now on the tenant to provide proof that the hair was there before they moved in….it's not on the landlord to provide further proof (unless the tenant provides proof to counter them).

          Just to clarify, As a tenant, I won't be inspecting pipes to the extent described above when going into an inspection (I'll test that all plumping works, but I won't go down the pipes with a camera to inspect), but I also know that if there is a problem caused by hair 6+ months down the track then I know it will likely be on me.

  • redfox1200 on 08/12/2023 - 09:43

    i recommend a DNA test be performed on the hair, if its the landlords then the landlord pays

    • cunningdrew on 08/12/2023 - 13:09

      And who pays if it's not the landlords or current tenants?

      • redfox1200 on 08/12/2023 - 13:53
        +1

        the plumber

        • cunningdrew on 08/12/2023 - 14:43

          In hindsight, I guess it was obvious

  • R4 on 08/12/2023 - 11:34

    Learn to do basic plumbing, it's not difficult, and there's usually no need to call a plumber.

    • JoJoker on 08/12/2023 - 12:42

      Last thing I would want as a landlord would be a tenant learning to do plumbing work on my property, with the potential of doing work that requires a license to do so (the overwhelming majority of it) and voiding any insurance. Actually no the last thing I'd want to do would be to tell them to "Learn to do basic plumbing" because then I'd be on the hook.

      • R4 on 08/12/2023 - 13:13
        +1

        Let me rephrase that - clearing a blocked drain is a life skill, not a plumbing skill. It's just like changing a car wheel, rewiring a plug top, digging a hole, painting a wall - you should be able to do it.

  • cunningdrew on 08/12/2023 - 13:07
    +1

    Not sure how long you have been there, however if all drains were not cleaned by a professional before you moved in then who is to say it's your hair? And even if some is, what level of build up was there by previous tenants?

    This whole thing is ambugious, which is why plumbing items like this are usually the owner responsibility.

    • kiwimex on 09/12/2023 - 18:11
      -1

      1000% this!

  • cbastien on 08/12/2023 - 16:20

    Owner should buy a plunger as a Christmas present to the tenant

  • Borat on 11/12/2023 - 19:13

    A $3 hair removal tool have fixed this. How difficult can it be for a tenant to remove the blockage from the floor waste? A 5yo can do this.

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