Backlash to a new $120,000-a-year union pay deal for stop-sign holders working 36-hour weeks has prompted a heated defence of tradies.
What side are you on?
Should Stop Sign Holders Get a Pay Rise to $120k?
capslock on 19/02/2024 - 10:37
Last edited 19/02/2024 - 11:08 by 1 other user
Last edited 19/02/2024 - 11:08 by 1 other user
Poll Options
- 194Yes
- 867No
Comments
You cannot undercut them, it's usually a union site, typically large government projects.
@orangetrain: unless you are the one owning the contract for the whole project then yes it is impossible and even then you will be beholden to the union.
Socialism is a wonderful thing eh!
Why can't we use short-term foreign labour to fix the housing/infrastructure crisis? We are already doing that for fruit pickers and highly skilled doctors and nurses by hiring them from overseas.
Yeah, because I see lots of jobs ads for traffic controllers… NOT! I'd say supply exceeds demand, so what now?
This role is not even worth minimum wage.
The danger of standing on the street all day surely is worth at least a little more than minimum wage? Not to mention standing n the sun and rain.
They have hats, long sleeved high vis workwear, water, fold up chairs to sit on, smartphones to occupy their down time, & other accoutrements. However, the danger of boredom cannot be underestimated.
They have hats, long sleeved high vis workwear, water, fold up chairs to sit on, smartphones to occupy their down time, & other accoutrements
and they still get killed.
@pharkurnell: There is a risk for sure, but not in the majority of cases or places. Suburban streets are a lot safer than busy arterial roads. It would be interesting to read case reports detailing the circumstances of those fatalities. I do not know what precautions are taken by those in charge, but I would put frequent rotation high on the list, as well as pairing with experienced workers.
The danger of standing on the street all day surely is worth at least a little more than minimum wage?
Just wondering, as a thought process, what kind of job is lesser than standing around on a street twisting a lollipop that is worth min wage?
Maybe sitting on an assembly line adjusting boxes on a conveyer belt? Though if out of alignment boxes can stall the line then you may not want a minimum wage worker doing it.
@AustriaBargain: Is that even a real job? Like adjusting boxes?…
Seriously though, I ask because the idea of min wage is that many jobs are unskilled or lightly skilled and doesn’t deserve much pay. Sure, some have repossession like stalling an entire assembly line or working in very cold storage or being on your feet in a hot warehouse etc, but it’s all lightly skilled and generally paying more doesn’t improve productivity.
I would have thought the old lollipop man would come close to this category, maybe just above it, but not hitting the pay university educated health staff responsible for life or death decisions as another poster said of nurses and medical staff.
Imagine expecting danger pay just for going outside haha
It's also mostly just a job put aside for freshly released prisoners to fill as an easy form of gainful employment.
The idea of paying someone above minimum wage for that job is absolutely beyond laughable.
You could literally automate their role already.
It's a dangerous job that cops a lot of abuse. Still, at $120K, automation has to be an option.
I think that you will find that they don't just hold a sign. They have to monitor traffic flow, set up the cones, properly comply with laws, etc. Their job is to keep traffic from hitting other workers, either by temporarily stopping traffic, slowing it down or diverting it. Before they became a regular thing, many workers died. Nowadays its the sign holders who face death.
I would argue that being a cop has a higher risk of death yet they earn less.
You won't find many full-time traffic controllers, so they do not have the job security that Police do. If the Police need to earn more, then so be it. But Police don't face death every minute of the day on every shift. How many police were killed last year compared to traffic controllers? From my research, it was 4 police to 8 traffic controllers.
@thesilverstarman: According to the federal government and roadsafety.gov.au, a grand total of 8 traffic controllers died in Australia between 2012 and 2022.
That's so statistically rare, the number is significantly less than the number of people who died by getting struck by lightning.
So it turns out Traffic Controllers really don't even have remotely as dangerous a job as Police do.
Traffic sign holders is about the lowest of the low in terms of unskilled labour. Even a high school dropout with a 40 IQ could do the work. They should be getting no more than minimum wage.
In a capitalist society people aren't paid according the value the contribute to society; people are paid highly because they have good social connections that allow them to get high paying easy jobs, so called lazy-girl jobs. These would include state governor, governor general, dockside worker, government bureaucrat, academic, CEO, diversity officer, and so on. The thing most of these lazy girl jobs have in common is that they are unionized.
I think that controlling traffic to protect workers requires skill. Not only that but they have a high risk of death or injury as well. It's easy to put others down, but perhaps tell the families of the "sign holders" who are killed each year that their life is only worth minimum wage.
Holding a sign while standing is not a "skill".
A barrel with that same sign placed in it literally fulfills their entire job requirements.
Except that's not what they do. Great way to minimise what people do and put them down. Here is a job description:
Primary functions – i.e., implements and monitors operational Traffic Management Plans, completes site hazard assessments, and implements control measures to suit each site.
Relevant Qualifications for the position – Successful Completion of Yellow Card – Implement Traffic Control Plans and Traffic Control Ticket, drivers licence
Responsibilities – i.e., Implement and Monitor Operational Traffic Management Plans.
Accredited traffic controllers have the following responsibilities:
a. Safety of the traffic controller (self);
b. Safety of fellow workers;
c. Safety of motorists and other road users;
d. Enabling works at the site to be conducted safely by minimising the risk associated with traffic movement;
e. Controlling traffic in a professional manner to enable drivers to negotiate through, past, or around the worksite safely;
f. Ensuring that indication given to the traffic is consistent with the display provided by the traffic signals.
g. Maintaining traffic control in emergencies and other difficult situations; and
h. Minimising delays to traffic.@thesilverstarman: A barrel with the same sign in it achieves every last one of those outcomes & actually reduces the overall risk as there isn't then a person standing in traffic.
You just proved my point, thanks.
@infinite: not sure how a barrel monitors and implements traffic plans, and responds to vehicle movements and traffic conditions. Or completes site assessments and deals with emergencies. The job may not be overly taxing, but in many ways it is like an air traffic controller. Do the job well and nobody dies or gets injured. Do it poorly and lives are lost. You are valuing the job based on your opinion that it is no more than holding a sign. But the job is about controlling traffic to prevent the loss of injury and death to workers, pedestrians and drivers.
But the job is about controlling traffic to prevent the loss of injury and death to workers, pedestrians and drivers.
The sign does that, not the person standing next to it, holding it.
The person is completely irrelevant. The fact that there is a person holding the safety sign at all serves no other function than to inject and increase the risk of danger.
@infinite: Next time you see a sign react, plan etc let me know. Clearly you wouldn't be suitable for a job like this.
@thesilverstarman: Sign holders don't do that. They simply just hold up a sign. The sign conveys the signal and warnings of danger, the person attached to the sign is just there to hold it and nothing else.
A barrel for the sign to stand in literally has the same function and value.
It very much sound like you are jealous of barrels. Wonder why ?
@thesilverstarman: Aren't these the roles of pretty much every stationary traffic signal/sign, including traffic lights?
@Piratarzt: Yes.
This individual though would have you believe that there should be a person holding up the traffic lights.
perhaps tell the families of the "sign holders" who are killed each year that their life is only worth minimum wage
They didn't trade their life for a wage. The stupidity that allowed this line of thinking would also produce:
"perhaps tell the families of those who are killed each year on their days off that their life is worth nothing."
I honestly cannot fathom your stupidity…
In a capitalist society people aren't paid according the value the contribute to society; people are paid highly because they have good social connections that allow them to get high paying easy jobs, so called lazy-girl jobs.
Lol what a cope. Yes when your role requires that you work with others to get the job done (i.e. anything but the lowest shit-kicker roles) social skills become valuable.
Even a high school dropout with a 40 IQ could do the work
And yet here you are, not able to get the job.
this union is trying to price construction into the stratosphere
Do you blame them with how many property developers are directly tied to, and even employed by the government?
All it does is raise the prices for regular plebs like us
Link us to any property developers currently employed by the Government…………..
The union literally are the current Government… Most Labor ministers are ex union executives anyway.
I find it funny the argument that peoplee behind the desk dont produce anything, which was stated in the article by someone. Good luck anyone doing anything if your whole IT infrastructuregoes down. That said i dont begrudge anyone getting a payrise. We are all slaves to the wage and some get more for no real particular reason, other than just because
You'd have to be an actual monkey to fall for this blatant propaganda.
I don't know why we can't have a temporary traffic light system like they do in most other Western countries. There's probably some (typically Australian) bullsh1t regulations preventing this.
Bizarre.
Go and look at a building site and you will see why this can't be done. During the day, trucks and people move in and out, and work areas change. Traffic changes during the day as well. You need to be able to read all of this and see when traffic needs to be stopped, diverted etc. There are legal requirements to comply with the road laws as well as building and health and safety regs. It is not just holding a sign.
Maybe that might be the case for a construction site but for works on open roads? A traffic light system works just fine - as seen in multiple overseas countries.
You mean similar to the aptitude and decision making skills of anyone who crosses a busy street when there's a red man on the traffic light?
Again - this is another "news" produced by the News Corp designed to generate outrage in the community to pitch against union and ultimately the Labor party for political gain.
Traffic controllers have always been making good wage due to long hours (sometimes overnight), risk of getting hit by errand vehicles when standing roadside and under hot/wet weather. Their jobs are also more insecure and many are on needs basis.
Do they deserve $120k? It's up to anyone to be the judge but why would I be outraged if others are making good money?
risk of getting hit by errand vehicles when standing roadside and under hot/wet weather
Those damn errand vehicles!
why would I be outraged if others are making good money?
inflation and taxes are a pretty good reason…
So to combat inflation and taxes we shouldn’t let others make good money?
That’s the most flawed argument I’ve ever heard.
Seems you have a flawed understanding of how the economy works.
ALP Victoria needs to buy the votes via the CMFEU to continue flushing the Victorian economy down the toilet
Unions are responsible for liveable wages and better conditions for Australians. Look at restaurant workers in the US who have to survive on tips and workers who work full time but can't afford to even rent a one-bedroom apartment. Proper wages make the economy thrive because if people don't earn good wages, they can't spend money.
Unions are responsible for liveable wages and better conditions for Australians. Look at restaurant workers in the US who have to survive on tips and workers who work full time but can't afford to even rent a one-bedroom apartment. Proper wages make the economy thrive because if people don't earn good wages, they can't spend money.
no one is disagreeing with this but paying someone in the top 10% of wage earners in Australia in a job that requires almost no skill is beyond ridiculous — esp when the costs are being picked up by taxpayers
most people who are full time workers struggling would tell you the biggest issue they have is paying excessive tax and fees on things ie income tax, childcare costs, stamp duty, healthcare/PHI etc
the government mishandling money is the prime reason so many are struggling
The government is doing what it is supposed to be doing, at least post-1973; funneling money into private hands.
Last year 4 police died whilst working in Australia. 8 traffic controllers died in the same period. It is a dangerous job.
Your concept of skill needs to be re-evaluated. They do not just hold a sign. Their job is to protect construction workers and the public. They have to set up cones, barriers etc all whilst traffic is flowing. They need to monitor the workplace and slow, stop or divert traffic as required, all whilst keeping traffic flowing. They work in all weather conditions and risk abuse, injury and death every minute they are working. Every award pays more for people who have to work outside, in the rain and the heat. Every award pays more for people who are at risk of death or injury.
Your attitude is one that I've seen before. I ran a transport company, and people would look down on truck drivers, saying that they were overpaid and unskilled. Yet the cost of the truck and trailer they are in control of could be as high as 1 million dollars, with the load being worth millions as well. They are at a higher risk of road accidents. They are away from their homes and families for days, even weeks at a time. When you have 40 tonnes of metal and goods on the road with cars, school children etc, you want the person in charge to be skilled. You also want the goods that they carry to be delivered undamaged and on time.
Every job is important. The person who makes your coffee at the drive-through, the person who mops your floors and the person who collects your garbage are all important and deserve to be paid as much as they can earn. It's easy for an office worker to think that someone earns too much. Try working in the rain, being away from home, picking up shitty nappies or standing in front of cars that don't slow down and then tell me what they should be paid.Last year 4 police died whilst working in Australia. 8 traffic controllers died in the same period. It is a dangerous job.
Your concept of skill needs to be re-evaluated. They do not just hold a sign. Their job is to protect construction workers and the public. They have to set up cones, barriers etc all whilst traffic is flowing.i had to stop reading after this
How many soldiers have died in wars they dont make 100k they are also high skilled - it is by far the most dangerous job you can do they get 2% pay rises
if you cant understand how badly that puts your argument to bed then you wont ever change your opinion
@Trying2SaveABuck: Soldiers know that death is a risk before they take the job. When they go into active combat they receive extra pay, and if they die their families get payments. Traffic controllers don't.
I went on the ADF site and found the rates of pay. A private in the army with no specialist skills and no tertiary education earns between 62 to 109k per year base rate. If they are deployed out of the country, they get a deployment allowance of 100 to 188 per day, plus separation and hardship allowances. If they are in an active combat zone, they get more. These are all tax-free. They also get family support, help with accommodation etc. So they do get way in excess of what a traffic controller gets when they at at risk, even for someone with no specialist skills. A skilled soldier who has been in the army for say 10 years, who is sent to a combat zone could earn 200k, with most of it tax free. Perhaps you should have done some research yourself.Soldiers know that death is a risk before they take the job
you think people that hold the sign dont know there are risks of being hit by a car?
@Trying2SaveABuck: When soldiers (and airmen and sailors) are deployed, they get tax-free pay plus quite a few bonuses based on where they are deployed and the type of work they do. They make more than 100k with all that added in - source: family members who have deployed numerous times over the last 20 years, most recently in 2019.
Your argument is the one that doesn't hold up.
@cimrak: 'Recruit during basic military training: $54,216 p.a. Soldier during initial employment training: $61,961 - $68,157 p.a.'
https://app.adfcareers.gov.au/supporters-hub/career-advisor/…
Im not saying your full of BS and im sure there are who in service that do make good money but there are many that dont
@Trying2SaveABuck: That's during training. A private in the army with no specialist skills and no tertiary education earns between 62 to 109k per year base rate depending on years of service.
Fair work called… they said if this is your reason for the union existing then it's not needed anymore since they have it covered.
They certainly were 80 years ago, but now they only serve to do the exact opposite.
Look at restaurant workers in the US who have to survive on tips and workers who work full time but can't afford to even rent a one-bedroom apartment.
Yep - now they are homeless and on the street, Because the union went full tard with it's pay claims and negotiating tactics, so in turn, many of the restaurants simply automated the ordering and paying process and eliminated the need for those low skill art's graduates.
Who really cares. Money, wages, social class and everything about this system we live under is a load of shit. Bring on the collapse I say.
The job shouldn't exist at all. In the UK we have these crazy robot things that do this job. Otherwise known as temporary traffic lights.
I'm assuming its still around to serve a different purpose - the reason so many young girls do it is to push the gender diversity stats in a male dominated industry….
I dunno but full time holding a stop/slow sign sounds pretty crap I wouldn't do it for 150k per year. Id rather a desk job sitting in A/C for 85k. YMMV
I wouldn't do it for 150k per year. Id rather a desk job sitting in A/C for 85k
This must be a truly unpopular opinion, surely.
Probably lol, but work is such a large chunk of time in your life it might as well be somewhat enjoyable. But maybe my pov is weird hence the ‘YMMV’… Im on more than what is discussed here (not by much) but if I got a significant paycut I wouldn’t opt to be flipping signs… but not like I’m sexy enough to get the gig anyway..
The poll question doesn't make sense to me.
Is it:
Yes = Yes they deserve a pay rise
No = No they don't
?
Most polls on Ozbargain are terribly worded.
The actual headline should be “stop sign holders will earn $100k a year plus travel allowance 3 years from now”.
Whinging about people we think lesser than us while most of the wealth is controlled by a small percentage of people, what selfish insanity.
I've always seen these sort of articles as a way of making the lower paid of society fight amongst each other.
Rather than fretting about Stop sign holders earn, ask yourself why your employer is not valuing you as much as they guy who holds the stop sign. Unionise, stand up for yourself and pressure your boss - The guy likely on 200k+ - To pay you what you are worth.
Have noticed everyone else's wages have stagnated. The rise of unionisation will be back - 20% payrises seem to be the norm these days.
Bring it on.
No. If all they actually do is traffic control they should not get paid that much. It's unskilled labour.
Also the article "average full-time weekly income of $1838." Ain't no (profanity) average income.
They have to do multiple courses, white card, traffic controlling.
Don’t know why people complain, I know plenty of white collar workers that do far less than just “holding up a sign” for more pay.
If you’re annoyed that you don’t earn as much as this, here’s a clue - that this is the job for you.
But you’re on your feet all day, people probably aren’t happy you’ve stopped them… so… there’s positives and negatives for each job… and likely not too fun either…
I'm always confused why the people insisting that a job is paid significantly more than it's worth aren't flocking to do it…
It's not like traffic control is a niche industry that's hard to break into - if you're vaguely competent and want to do it, you can.
This
Thoughts on politicians being paid more than they should? Why aren't you trying to be a politician
Firstly, your sad attempt at a gotcha moment doesn't work because I've never said that, nor believe it.
Secondly, even if I did, they aren't remotely comparable roles. Whether you like it or not, becoming a politician requires a huge amount of skill. You need to convince literally tens of thousands of people that you're a great person, you need to know how to manipulate media, you need to effectively completely give up your private life, you get fired every three years and have to campaign all over again to get the job back among countless other things.
That is INCREDIBLY difficult and seasoned professionals regularly and consistently fail to get elected. To get into entry level traffic control you can literally walk into a course tomorrow, pass in one day and then look for work. So I'll ask you again, why aren't you?
It's the one role in an entire roadworks crew that a female can fill. That's the only reason why the Union is going full tard mode with their pay demand.
All it's going to result in is the person holding the sign being replaced with a barrel, or a dummy in a barrel base, just like what 90% of the rest of the world already does.
This was a reply to an earlier comment but it's worth putting out there:-
Sadly, a family friend who's 23 years old was hit by a car and has now lost half of a leg. She's in the UK not Aus but this is a potentially dangerous job.
I wouldn't have believed it without actual evidence but it's real and she now has a whole life ahead of her with a major disability. She's an active outdoors girl so will most likely cope better than many but it must be horrible for her in reality.
I also suspect that in the UK wages are way less than here for that kind of role.
So sad
It all could have been entirely avoided too if they just used a barrel to hold up the sign instead of a person, like what most of the rest of the world already does.
I'm all for people getting pay rises but I've rarely seen traffic management companies actually manage traffic properly. Get gud.
Money for jam, good for those who can get it I guess
Do a TAFE short course and you too can be raking in the 'big bucks' in a few months. You are going to apply right? It being money for jam and all…
Bear in mind a lot of people say big bucks. Mining jobs are similar for $150K a year + super.
You have accomodation, only work 26 weeks a year, food is provided by chefs onsite at no expense to you.
Gyms onsite for after work (also free)Just got to be willing to do it and most aren’t and stick their noses up at the job which also requires minimum training.
Stay at the parents on your downtime or at a friends… 10 years time with some smart investments, retire.
Anyone knows how to break through? Feels like a lot of job ads always asking for experience FFS
Wow…
wht do you think about management ?
They do absolutely nothing because they cant do better, except talk bullshit.
In public hospitals, my staff, many of them with a PhD, start out at a lower wage and often with a huge debt. Australia needs to do two things: 1. Stop using properties as a speculative tool to make easy money; 2. Make life harder for those happy go luckies.
This is classic "get the poor to fight so they don't see what's really happening" news, and of course it's come from news.com.au
We're arguing over if people who are renting and will never own a house should get a payrise, yet the richer, like the ACTUAL rich people, just get richer and we're ignoring it.
Look at commbank. They just posted record billions in profit for the first half of the FY.
billions. In profit. but hey let's get angry at someone standing in the sun for 12 hours.
Just another example of a now for profit corporation funneling billions into the hands of private controlling interests. Just trying arguing for a publically owned "bank" with most party politicians & see how far you get.
Question is, was it all on purpose?
Are you saying the news.com.au doesn't post articles about banks or rich people that make everyday folks angry at them?
There's lots of click bait money to be made making people get emotional. How much page view and ad revenue has op made them for free?
Typical rage baiting article from news.com.au. can't wait until next weeks article on how carpenters are making 300k a year.
If these people are paid so much, why aren't you undercutting them?