NSW to legalise e-scooters on paths and roads up to 20km/h for those over 16
E-scooters will be legalised on shared paths and bike lanes on roads – but remain outlawed on footpaths – under a New South Wales government plan that will also introduce strict speed and age limits.
Wont be anywhere. Cops have more on their plate as do councils.
Well I just heard someone else just died near Hastings. Old man was hit by a modified e-bike…
Jacinta will have to act on this soon or she will be lynched…
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/screams-a-crumpl…
A 24-year-old Hastings man, who police allege was riding the illegally modified e-bike, was driven to The Alfred with serious upper and lower body injuries.
Let him rot in jail for 20 years.
The food delivery riders on the illegal ebikes are the worst.
@Clear: True…
Most are unregistered illegal electric mopeds, not ebikes.
They often ride through red lights, on footpaths and the wrong way down one way streets and the police and government do absolutely nothing about the problem.
@jv: In my experience you'd have a safer time trying to navigate a Bangkok roundabout on a tuktuk than the Melbourne food delivery riders.
@Clear: Honestly I can see why this is the case - international (students/immigrants) with no way to easy way to earn income except for being a food delivery driver, where an extra delivery per hour can make or break them, due to the high cost of living. That, combined with no enforcement of regulation (99% of those food delivery drivers on bicycles are classified as electric mopeds, since they dont need to pedal, and the engine is > 25km/h). Since they're mopeds they technically need a registration number etc - but of course, all not enforced.
This is free market economy at its finest, and everything is "optimized" - noting that long term costs such as car crashes etc are "externalities" (similar to pollution etc) that arent accounted for in (realised as opposed to theoretical) capitalism.
@aong152: I dont - why come over here if you need to do that kind of work?
Seriously people should maybe do the maths on moving somewhere before they do.
Then they go and whinge and moan afterwards that it's thankless work for low pay, as if someone strong armed them into doing it.
Cops have more on their plate as do councils.
Underage girls aren't going to strip search themselves after all.
No they wont. They're state. Their strategic implementations are similar to USA's defense system: Fire and forget
It will be up to the local governments to try their best to mop up the mess, even if they dont have the power to
Absolutely won't be. Let's consider the history of police enforcement of ebikes which is zero. Every day I am overtaken on bike paths by electric mopeds, rider using the pedals as footpegs as they throttle past me well above the legal limit. Then these guys go on shared paths at the same speed and have the gall to wildly ring their bell at pedestrians. Give me a fkn badge and ticket book, I will do the job for free.
Just poke a stick through their spokes as they go past…
Good. For all the boomer whining about the kids going WHOOSH near them, they are a much better way to get around than a car for many short trips.
I'm hopeful it will prompt a lot of people to leave the car at home.
they are a much better way to get around than a car for many short trips.
Not when are large number do so illegally and there is no registration to report them…
@JB Shared paths are essentially legal push bike lanes, if e-scooters riders want to ride them on those paths good lucky to them, I look forward to reading about all of collisions that happen between push bike riders and e-scooter riders, and more e-scooter riders being hit by cars. As a regular walker as long as e-scooter riders are not on the footpath illegally I don’t care. Having no registration to report them works both ways, if they illegally ride on the footpath just push them of their e-scooters as they ride past and watch them fall off, what’s the e-scooter rider going to do about it, report the pedestrian and dob themselves in for riding on the footpath illegally. For the record I’m not a boomer I’m a millennial.
Shared paths are essentially legal push bike lanes
The issue is they often ride on footpaths at full speed… Or ride on the road and ignore road rules.
"Just push them off as they ride past." I wouldn't advocate for the footpath equivalent of road-rage behaviour. You never know how violent the other person is willing to get
what’s the e-scooter rider going to do about it, report the pedestrian and dob themselves in for riding on the footpath illegally
errr…. you potentially get jailed, and they get a small fine.
if they illegally ride on the footpath just push them of their e-scooters as they ride past and watch them fall off, what’s the e-scooter rider going to do about it,
Umm, that's assault. If he gets hurt enough, this could be escalated to bodily harm or even GBH.
what’s the e-scooter rider going to do about it, report the pedestrian and dob themselves in for riding on the footpath illegally.
If scooter dude has serious injuries, he's gonna scream the roof down.
What's the penalty for his offence? A fine?
What's the penalty for yours? Up to 20 years imprisonment.
Just because scooter dude breaks law, doesn't give you permission to break the law.
Now, out of those two scenarios, who do you think will likely come out in front?
Sheesh… if you're gonna hand out your own justice, be a bit discreet about it.
Sounds like the boomers will have to make short trips in their cars again to avoid being hit by a kid on an e-bike.
What do you mean? Most are already doing short trips in their cars already. Just look at the suburbs…
Pfft. Probably installing bull bars and those kangaroo whistles as we type.
I get what you are saying from a congestion and environmental perspective… but It's not worth the serious injuries and dying mate.
Friend is a Doctor that has been working in Emergency in Qld, the uptick in major injuries that have come in since the rise of e-scooters is apparently startling. Particularly during the initial Lime scooter epidemic. https://www.drive.com.au/news/e-scooter-accidents-nearly-dou…
Since 2018, 4233 e-scooter accidents have been reported to hospitals in the state, with the most common injury being a head wound, followed by the face. The true number could be higher, as not all hospitals report their e-scooter incidents to the QISU, including hospitals such as the Princess Alexandra Hospital, Logan Hospital, and the QEII Jubilee Hospital. This report also doesn't capture injuries incurred by riders who don't seek hospital treatment.
Noting these, particularly the PA are some of the MAIN hospitals for head injuries and their data isn't even in this!
We don't have enough pathways etc setup to separate an additional mode of transport with its own needs and speeds from pedestrians and cars and cyclists.
I understand this, but my low traffic town with bike paths gets the same law as Fortitude Valley, despite having much lower risk of injury and fewer options for transport.
I expect the penalties for knocking someone down will remain, and the law above (50km/h streets only and separate paths) is seeking to protect pedestrians and riders.
My neighbourhood is full of teenagers and younger riding these things wherever they want. Footpaths, the wrong side of the road, parks. No helmets on either. I have seen police cars drive right past them.
There is zero enforcement of current laws out in the suburbs as far as I can see. Not sure if this differs in the CBD/Inner West where they are more prevalent.
the nanny state
rather a nanny state that a toddler on a footpath getting killed by an e-scooter rider…
as a country we are brought up soft due to being nanny'ing around
putting people's safety first from hooligans is not "nanny'ing around"
@TheMindsetTraveller: You've actually nailed it.
We do live in Australia.
We do not live in any other location inside your fantasyland so we don't have dodge dogs, potholes and whatever obstacle you're providing.
We live in Australia with Australian conditions. We get to do it the Australian Way over here (and our dogs are not supposed to be off leash and our the elephants that wander our streets take their naps at lunch time and as for goats? We eat goats! What fool is going to let their goats go awol?)
Have a sook old man.
The thing that really gets me about all path users is that none of them seem to get that whole "stay to the right" directive.
It's as walking around a shopping centre! Everybody's just walking along in their own little world spread anywhere across the aisle with absolutely no awareness of the whereabouts of anybody around them.
Used to be, pedestrians stuck to right. If bike wanted to pass, they rang their bell as they approached the pedestrian, then both moved aside as conditions allowed and bike just got on with his day at no inconvenience to the walker.
IMO footpaths are only for walkers and little kids with trainer wheels on their bikes.
For shared paths, should be plenty of room for walkers and pedal bikes.
All the powered vehicles, whether they be scooters or gogomobiles, need to be registered, required to wear helmets and ride in bicycle lane on road after they pass an appropriate test and get issued with a license.
"I'm just an international student riding my scooter to make some money" doesn't pass the pub test for safe road usage.
From when?
E-scooters will be legalised on shared paths
Those are usually connecting between sections of bike lanes. Hardly any around where I'm (Sydney South-Eastern suburbs).
and bike lanes on roads
Motorists are going to complain slow cyclists blocking the road, while the cyclists are now going to complain even slower e-scooter riders blocking the bike lanes.
remain outlawed on footpaths
But the reality is, all those e-scooters have been on the footpaths and they will continue to be on the footpaths in the future regardless of this legislation (together with food deliverers on ebikes that have little regard of traffic laws). Unfortunately I have no solution either, but just want to point out that laws that aren't enforced won't change anything.
Motorists are going to complain slow cyclists blocking the road, while the cyclists are now going to complain even slower e-scooter riders blocking the bike lanes.
In my experience you'll only ever find the speed unlocked scooters on the road and they'll floor it.
It will only take one person to be seriously injured. Then all bets are off.
As it is, no one complains because there is nothing that can come of it. Create legislation then fail to police that legislation, if anybody becomes harmed, the ambulance chances will be lined up for blocks.
20km/h is an okay compromise
as someone on the scooter, it could feel a bit slow
as a pedestrian, it's freeakiing terrifying when someone misses you by 1ft going that speed
would propose a lower speed limit of perhaps 15km/h when passing pedestrians as you could still do significant damage going this speed
Only for comparison, Qld prescribes 12km/h to spaces shared with pedestrians and 25km/h to path and roads where rideables are permitted
ah, did not know that - good to know.
Yeah this would make sense.
How you enforce it though.. different matter
Qld prescribes 12km/h to spaces shared with pedestrians
Are you sure? I was just looking at the rules here and it doesn't state anything like that, nor in the Bicycle rules. You piqued my interest because I commute by e-bike to work
how police know we go 21-23 ? speed camera can pickup that?
TruCAM II: laser speed measurement with digital video and still image capture
If you're keen, you can work that out in your head by timing how long it takes to get to point a and point b.
20km/h is dumb. Legal ebikes can travel at 25km/h. Make it the same.
Legal ebikes can travel at 25km/h.
Nope…
Pedal assist is up to 25km/h
Its kinda correct. Its really easy to get to 25km/h on a legal ebike because that is where the assist cuts out. Of course, if youre willing to pedal faster you can exceed 25.
My pojnt stil stands, why make the speed limit different to the most common speed travelled by ebikes.
My pojnt stil stands, why make the speed limit different to the most common speed travelled by ebikes.
One reason could be that ebikes have much larger wheels and are less likely to crash on small bumps than a scooter. Another would be that ebikes will have much stronger brakes where the centre of mass is not directly over the front pivot point and therefore has a shorter stopping distance.
Bicycles and scooters handle very, very differently at speed.
Pedal assist is up to 25km/h
My dad used to ride a regular bike lover the place with the grandkids. It must have gotten a bit tough for him eventually because he bought one of those motorised push bikes but never told anybody.
Then one day my kid caught him turning on the motor to help him get up the hill. He swore her to secrecy for years!
Hopefully results in less people thinking that NSW law applies to the whole country in escooter deals.
They're being dragged out of the dark ages.
Just make it 30kmh ffs.
Could show the same thing with grandmas on gophers that max out at 10kmh
Could show the same thing with grandmas
Go ahead and show us then…
@Drakesy: That was the other driver who injured the old dude. The old dude doing 10klm p/h on a gopher wouldn't knock a skinny tree over if it ran into it.
Old folks on wheelie walkers go faster than 10 klm.
that's a point against your argument for 30kmh, not for
@Jaspa7: ….
My argument is that speed isn't a factor when it comes to getting hit and injured by cars hence why 30kmh will result in similar outcomes to 20kmh
My argument is that speed isn't a factor when it comes to getting hit
https://www.9news.com.au/national/hastings-illegally-modifie….
man dies after 80 km/h collision with ebike
@Drakesy: horse faeces - if speed isn't a factor, hell why not allow 200km/h
anything at 30km/h has 2.25x the kinetic energy of that same thing @ 20km/h.. (mv^2)
except it's worse than just that, due to decreased reaction times AND stopping distances..
your residual speed at impact can easily be 5x that of a scenario where you were traveling 20km/h..
(say 3km/h vs 15km/h)
resulting in 25x the residual kinetic energy and therefore potential to do damage
@Jaspa7: Bikes regularly do 30kmh on paths, if you have scooters travelling at 66% of that speed its the equivalent of a car travelling at 66% of the posted speed on a road, it becomes a hazard.
@Drakesy: By that logic
if you have pedestrians travelling at 16% of that speed its the equivalent of a car travelling at 16% of the posted speed on a road, it becomes a hazard.
@Drakesy: Not really, because that's the speed that all scooters are supposed to be travelling.
If the bikes are travelling faster, they simply overtake the slower moving vehicle on the left.
*assuming you mean shared pathway, cos neither bike or e-scooter should be on pedestrian path.
If the posted limit on a road is 100klm p/h, only the vehicles travelling at 66 pose a problem but then they're supposed to keep left
@Jaspa7: Apart from the impact consideration, the faster the vehicles are moving, the harder it is to get out of their way and then maintain control if you do hit something.
Lowest powered vehicle always gets dibs starting with pedestrian, even if they're on a road.
Legal e bike assistance cuts out at 25. Its a decent effort for pedal cyclists to travel at more than 25, unless on a roadie or there is a down hill run.
25 should be the limit.
Legal
Ppl follow laws/rules/expected behaviour?
That made me laugh
you're happy for 120kg to run into you at 30km/h?
how about your grandma/toddler?
Not that different to being hit by a bicycle at 30km/h
Ultimately its all about courtesy and passing with space. We need a good education program for drilling into any wheeled device being required to give way to pedestrians. More education for kids and teens about courtesy.
Put in presumed liability with a heirachy of road and path users. Pedestrians, then human powrerd transport, the e-things, then motorised traffic in levels of presumed liability in any incident.
We need a good education program
education doesn't work with delinquents and druggies…
@jv: FTFY
education doesn't work
The moron gene is now the dominant one and has been since the internet arrived.
@jv: So does banning e-scooters. Prohibition would only stop the responsible ones from using them as an alternative mode of transport, not the delinquents and druggies you are mentioning.
quite different to being hit by a bicycle.
a bicycle has a much higher relative centre of mass and will mostly crumple and tumble over/around you
just ask someone who's hit a 40kg wombat.. vs a say the same weight roo that mostly just rolls off the bonnet
also, a bicycle doing 30km/h is not going to be on the footpath
@Euphemistic: not disputing that.
I would still rather face the front edge of a bike, than the front edge of a scooter
@Jaspa7: Wut?
As someone who has cycled for decades either for commuting or sport, on every continent except for Antarctica, I would in no way have any confidence in a statement like this.
I love cycling. I would never claim it's safer to be hit by a cyclist than a scooter rider.
@rumblytangara: 'safer' is highly subjective..
you'd quantify it with likelihood x severity…
i'd argue the amount of accidents per scooter on the road waay outweighs the incidents per cycle on the road.
then severity:
"A study in the United Kingdom, incorporating exposure factors using data from an e-scooter rideshare operator and hospital admissions combined, indicates that although hospital presentations increased during the e-scooter trial period, the injury rate was comparable to that of bicycles.
But it might be a different story when it comes to the severity of injuries. Some studies suggest a higher incidence of severe trauma among e-scooter users compared to cyclists. One study of more than 5,000 patients treated at a major trauma centre in Paris found that, while the mortality rate from e-scooter crashes wasn’t higher than that of bicycles or motorbikes, the risk of severe traumatic brain injuries was slightly higher than bicycles (26% compared to 22%).
There is evidence e-scooter riders tend to engage in significantly more risky behaviour than cyclists. Compared to injured bicyclists, those injured while riding e-scooters:
tend to be younger
are more frequently found to be intoxicated
exhibit a lower rate of helmet use
and are more commonly involved in accidents at night or on weekends."
There is evidence e-scooter riders tend to engage in significantly more risky behaviour than cyclists
I wonder if that has anything to do with the type of rider that will ride an illegal device? If it is all about the proportion of scooter riders the the demographic of those riders also needs to be taken into account.
Person on bike has higher centre of gravity than person on scooter
You can almost touch the ground while sitting on the saddle on a bicycle. A scooter means your feet are slightly off the ground. A bicycle usually means you are leaning forward to reach the handle bars whike a scooter rider tends to stand virtually upright. There wouldnt be much in it.
Make it 30km/hr and I will go out and buy an e-scooter … parents and toddlers, watch out - you have been warned.
i like how your mindset is travelling
Makes me wonder how would they know someone is going 20 or 30 km/h? Speed camera?
Speed camera?
yes
without license plate, how do they issue the fine?
@jv: What if the person wears balaclava, helmet and sunnies?
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/06/b4/0c/06b40c741a247332a4cb529d0…
@RTX9090Ti: They wont. It will be largely unenforced just like at present. There will be a few 'crackdowns' but the law will just be setting a community atandard, not becoming a regulalry enfored thing.
They will regret it…
Won't be enforced though, as per Victoria…