Banned from smoking in own apartment?

Just a question about how to deal with some new neigbours and who exactly is in the right.

As for a bit of background, my aunt has recently moved into a new off-the-plan apartment, lives alone and has been smoking for about the last 40 years. I personally hate cigarette smoking and have tried to get her to quit numerous times but it has always failed.

Yesterday, she got this endearing anonymous letter (I think it was delivered to every apartment in the complex) in the mail criticising her for her "disgusting habit" which she does in the privacy of her own apartment/balcony. It goes on to say that she should leave if she wishes to continue smoking or face financial penalties (and I'm assuming the disdain of this particular individual).

While I agree that smoking is not healthy, the cowardice of this person by not even approaching us to discuss the issue and immediately labelling her as "disgusting", then resorting to threats and demands that she kick her addictive habit is really getting to me. She was initially quite happy moving into her new apartment but now feels like she will suffer prejudice from all her neighbours over something she feels she has no control over.

I was just wondering if I am in the right being upset over this and how I should proceed.

P.s. She owns the place outright

Update: I've calmed down a little and thought through how I should approach this issue. I personally hate cigarette smoking as it gives me allergy like symptoms (as well as seeing it take another family member due to SCLC) but I also know that preaching and repetitively telling people not to smoke and to seek help in terms of quitting won't change anything, especially given the cultural background of my aunt (this is not to say I won't try, I just know it's an effort that will fall on deaf ears). I'll probably just tell her that she should ideally smoke outside of the complex and I'll also purchase her an airfilter rated for cigarette smoking for those times if she really wants to smoke inside (I can tell her not to but I am just being pragmatic and preparing for the inevitable situation where she will ignore this advice and just smoke on the balcony). I'll try and avoid hostilities and will refrain from letter writing (but funnily enough 3 more letters popped up over the last few days regarding noise, dogs and parking, nothing to do with us though) and will attend the AGM to see how things go.

Just as an aside though, what also struck me was the intense intolerance funneled towards smokers and this perception that they are pretty much all selfish individuals who don't give a s*** about anyone else in society, while I do see how smoking is selfish, why does one group of people deserve such vilification? The relevant studies show that while second-hand smoking does cause lung cancer, the risk it adds is 1.2x - 1.3x the rate observed in non-smokers (when exposed for a extended period). I'm not trying to say this is an insignificant amount but does that really justify the vilification of a group of people? Does it really necessitate a blanket intolerance against smokers without trying to explore other options? If your answer is yes, then what about other things in society that cause harm indirectly i.e. consumption of fossil fuels, McDonalds, any other fast food, pollution of waterways, antibiotics and steroids in our foods (some of these may be even more harmful than second-hand smoking, especially since their presence is pretty much ubiquitous). I just feel that maybe our attitudes towards smokers has become almost irrationally intolerant (especially when considering the actual amount of risk and what we deem to be acceptable in other aspects of life) and perhaps reconsider whether or not the vilification of a group of persons based solely on one trait is an appropriate thing to do.

Comments

  • +19

    If she is not renting but owns the place I don't see why she cannot do what she pleases. The neighbour probably thinks she is renting and wants to complain to the landlord? As most rental contract forbids smoking,albeit mostly indoor only. Just make sure she is not throwing the butts out the balcony perhaps?

    Just ignore the neighbour.

  • +32

    Tell em all to get f'ed.

    If you own your home, you can do whatever you like as long as not illegal

    If shes up for a bit of fun, and doesnt care about not being liked, she should send an anonymous letter back to every one in the building, politely telling them all to get f'ed, without actually swearing of course

    Perhaps a one pager that introduces her, a bit about herself, the fact that she is an owner /occupier and her hobbies - which include chain smoking - so dont call the fire department unless you see flames, becuase the billowing smoke all day long is fine and dandy!

    Maybe even a "smokers welcome" sign on her front door, if she really wants to bait the person overstepping the mark

    • +1

      haha, while this sounds tempting his person sounds like he/she might the type to go overboard quite easily, she's only lived there a month and they've already sent this letter.

      • +11

        I stand by my comment.

        The other person cant do anything, and they are obviously the worst kind of critic - not only anonymous but condescending too… I mean mailing the whole building to give it the guise of being "official"… Who thinks people are that gullible?

        The type to complain about smoking is not the type to be feared - it would be some cranky old bat or a young uber-correct do-gooder.

        Unlikely to be a deranged druggie or a psycho straight outta prison - these types most likely smoke themsleves

        • The same anonymous person probably doesn't mind breathing the air in the enclosed apartment car park. All the allergies likely disappear! You see, the adverts have fairies and love hearts coming out of the petrol-engine exhaust pipes, and the majority have a car… So that doesn't count! ☺

    • +3

      Absolutely. In fact, she should start cranking some loud metal while she's smoking so they know not to (profanity) around.

      • +3

        Probably also a good idea to get some tatts, dress punk and if she drives a car lay rubber whenever entering/exiting the premises

      • +11

        Lady below me was a bitch, complained about everything

        She copped slayer daily for a good year

    • First off, the letter is extremely cowardice and rude. Whoever it is should really try the more civil approach first.

      Now that's out of the way, you're actually not entirely correct. It is an apartment, which means it is under strata with strata and by-laws applicable. So you cannot in fact, technically, do whatever you want. Of course one can always push the boundaries and see if it pushes back.

      Your statement about your own home hence you can do whatever you want is correct in its own, but not in the context of the OP as he/she did mention it is an apartment.

  • +4

    If she is renting, it is highly likely that smoking would not be allowed within the property covered by that tenancy agreement.

    If she is living there with the consent of the owner, or she is the owner herself, the other occupants in the complex can go suck a fat one as far as I'm concerned.

    • +20

      Body Corporates can make laws to stop smoking in all common areas and including stairwells and balconies. Even if she owns the place, she should not be smoking on the balcony and her smoke is entering other units in the complex. We had this situation in my body corp. Previous tenants were going out on their balcony and smoking. Their unit would not get full of smoke because they closed their doors before going outside. But everyone elses place got the smoke. Our Body corporate is now in the process of banning smoking. We are in Qld. Not sure of the laws in other states.

      • +4

        I wished I heard about this 2 years ago. I could just report those damn neighbours to Body Corporates instead of inhaling smokes -_-

      • This is exactly the issue we had with smokers when living in an apartment complex, it's all well & good that it doesn't go into their apartments because they close the doors, but we would keep ours open to let fresh air into the apartment frequently, but just ended up with a lot of secondhand smoke coming in with that air. Not really pleasent when you yourself aren't a smoker.

  • +113

    While I also get the right to whatever you want in your own home, as someone who has lived next to smokers in apartment complexes, it's f***ing awful and I wish I had the guts to confront smokers about it.

    The smell of cigarette smoke to non smokers absolutely stinks and for people like myself gives me headaches. I should also have the right to have my windows open (and even when they're closed it still seeps in and stinks) and enjoy fresh air without breathing in cancer causing second hand smoke.

    Just my $0.02.

    • +3

      I used to smoke but havent for several years, and i dont particulalry like it wafting my way either.

      But im all for civil rights and disagree with bylaws that micro manage people so as long as its a private residence with the owners permission smoke em if you got em i say

    • +14

      As a guy that's lived with a chain smoking father, I get this as well (I get clogged sinuses and watery eyes when exposed to cigarette smoke). I just wasn't a fan of the way he/she had to vilify my aunt straight off the bat without even trying to have an adult conversation with us.

      • +6

        Yeah, it's a pretty pathetic and immature way to approach the issue. Unfortunately I think a lot of people would be concerned about pissing off their smoking neighbour and having them be spiteful and smoking more in future though.

        I think it's just about being considerate… I don't think it's fair for a smoker to sit outside endlessly smoking on their balcony in an apartment complex and having it waft into someone else's home but it's also not reasonable for people to expect their neighbours to give up smoking just because they don't like it.

      • +5

        I think that people writing your aunt a letter are scared to actually confront her directly. I myself did write a letter to my neighbour few years back, but I put my name and unit number down. It was about my neighbours talking loudly until 1 AM on weekdays at their balcony which is straight outside of my bedroom window. I wrote the letter in friendly tone and asked them to keep it down after midnight (I didn't even ask them to stop doing it). What did I get? Her huge angry boyfriend/husband knocking at my door then yelled at me for like half an hour, saying they could do whatever they wanted in their own home, told me to go back to my own country and finaly asked for my landlord details to report on me. It was awful. It was so awful and frightening so when they had drunk party until 3 AM in the morning with loud music and noise, I just stacked a lot of pillows on top of my head to sleep. My other neighbours luckily were away on holiday.

        So yeah, I got it. This same neighbour also smoked on the balkony, so I always had to close my window everytime she's there. She realised that, so I guess that might have built up her annoyance?

        • +14

          if they make loud noises past 11pm / 12am - I think you're entitled to call the police on them. You don't have to identify yourself to the neighbours.

        • @bluedufflecoat: but after that letter, they definitely think it was me reporting them :(

        • +4

          @purplelady: they can suspect you, but they can't prove anything.

          If they act abusive towards you, as a result - report them again.

        • +9

          Don't take that sh*t

          You have a right to enjoy your property, being rented or owned.
          If they are not civilised, which they clearly don't sound like, just avoid the face to face confrontation and report them to strata and or police.

          There are other ways to go about things. Keep it civil. But don't just let them bully you

        • +4

          @sagiballs: Thanks :) I did report them to strata and got a reply "Sorry to hear that. I'm a bit busy this week, and will deal with this next week" from the strata manager. Never heard a thing from that strata manager ever again.

          I moved out about 9 months after to my own property and have the best neighbours ever :)

        • +4

          In qld you can ring the police and if they have to come back within 30 of telling the people to be quiet they get a $1500/fine. This happened in my body corp and the tenants moved out ASAP. They were having parties at 2am each Tuesday night. The really selfish thing was…they told my tenant to "shut up you white b*tch" because she dared to have a BBQ with 3 friends on Saturday at noon. They said they couldn't sleep….they were taxi drivers…. Oh and at one stage there was 14 taxis parked innthe body corp and no one could get in or out. They weren't interested in moving them until they were told a baseball bat was coming out…..in short they were scumbags. But, there are laws to protect law abiding decent people, you just have to know your laws in a body Corp.

        • -4

          @jovialjosie2002: Let me guess they were Pakistani or Indian?

        • +2

          @jelko:
          Actually one was Aussie, the other 6 in the two bedroom apartment were from the sub continent. People are the same all over the world. Scumbags stick together no matter what background they are from.

    • +1

      You also have the right to buy a landed property with a larger buffer space to your next door neighbors.

      You've chosen to live in close proximity with other people so you'll have to tolerate the misgivings of others.

      (I'm not a smoker)

    • +5

      Exactly right. In this case it's clearly not illegal or anything like that, but it's bloody disrespectful to everyone else in the building.

      Nothing worse than spending time at home inside, windows closed, to avoid the disgusting habits of others. Apartment living isn't for smokers. It's one of the reasons I live in a house now. If I left the windows open in my previous apartment, sitting on my couch at the end of the day would release the smell of cigarettes from the apartment above. Terrible.

      On the other hand, I know your aunt wouldn't be able to do anything about her habit - understand that completely. I still am completely on the side of the person who wrote the letter. It's hard to confront people sometimes, but they clearly feel pretty robbed by living next to your aunt. They likely invested in the property, too.

    • i with you on this one.

  • +6

    If she is smoking indoors and the smell is leaking into another apartment then I think she should be more considerate and only smoke out on the balcony which I don't see as an issue.

    • +14

      depends on the density of the units. In the city it is becoming more popular to ban smoking on balconies and common property since it blows into other peoples windows.

      Think about it, you have 2 balconies side by side, someone smoking in one and the smoke blowing straight into the neighbours open balcony door and then straight into their unit.

      In the case of smoking indoors only, its possible that the smoke is passing under the door and into the hallway, causing the hall to be smelly.

  • Its her apartment she can do what ever she wants unless it is a fire issue to smoke inside that building which i doubt.

    I don't even smoke but i feel like we should all get together and buy some cigars and have a party at hers? Who the hell think they have a right to tell some one what to do in there own home?

  • +49

    Sorry, I just don't feel sorry for the smokers :)

    • +6

      I have chain smoking neighbours too. Two elderly Korean gentleman who have a habit of squatting at my carspot, either chatting loudly or drinking soju (rice wine) till it's midnight but what pisses me off is they both smoke like a chimney and wafting cigarette smoke into my bedroom and study right above.

      • +30

        If your 2nd hand smoke encroaches into someone else's home, I think you actually have the right to complain since everyone has the right to clean air and not have to be exposed to whatever toxic fumes you're creating.

        In OP's case I the letter is mostly an empty threat and carries no legal significance whatsoever. Only the strata management (and police/courts) has the power to enforce anything.

        going by google searches, somebody has been fined before. This case involved a tenant and a landlord renting out an apartment.
        http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-landlord-ordered-to-pay-110…

        and according to several case studies, listed here
        http://www.tobaccoinaustralia.org.au/15-6-domestic-environme…
        several by-laws have actually been passed to ban smoking in apartments and Multi-unit dwellings

        • +1

          I agree with every point you make…. I think most apartment issues with strata management are to do with adequate ventilation systems..its very hard to police open air

          when outside, Most smokers will oblige if you ask politley to try to aim down wind as it affects your asthma (even if you dont have asthma)

          Maybe you should try that with the drunken old korean dudes :)

        • @pointless comment:

          Not really, by laws for common property for this valid reason are easily passed and enforced. Simple as taking a picture and emailing it to strata.

          But I agree, its more effective to ask and state that the smoke is blowing straight in your window

        • -1

          clean air? in a city? if you're not sucking up smoke you're sucking up other pollution. Only clean air -wilderness non city,rural areas

      • -2

        Freedom in the modern world is mostly about protecting people from being harmed by others (slavery, muggings, murder, rape, theft, noisy all night parties, contaminated food, dangerous electical appliances, property seizure). Smoking harms other people without their consent, just like air pollution in all forms does.

        That said, one thing that amuses me is the fact that people (lefties) are promoting marijuana use while at the same time demonizing cigarette smoking as well as alcohol and amphetamines. Completely irrational, but I guess that's why Americans call them libtards.

    • -2

      What about if there was a 1000% tax on foods that are obscenely bad for you? Like McDonalds, ice-cream, chocolates, etc. Would you care then?

      Think of the government like a bully that picks on kids until they are dead. Once smokers are gone who do you think they will come after next?

      • +4

        Tax on bad food is in fact a brilliant idea. Too many obese / fat people here in Australia. It is in fact now so accepted to be overweight, that some people are promoting "sexy" fat people, and telling being overweight does not mean to be unhealthy.

        I think overweight and obesity is killing the same amount of people if not more then Alcohol or Tobacco. And should be fought.

        The main difference is that there are too many obese people in this country, and any change in law would impact a majority, instead of a minority, Thus making it almost impossible to pass any law.

        Add that, that it is OK to call someone Alcoholic, Drug Addict, Smoker, but it is NOT OK to call someone FAT? How's that?

        • +1

          I can understand why people are down-voting me. The hypocrisy of it just irritates me.

          Smoking is just easily targeted because how do you argue that you should be able to smoke and not be restricted.

          It bugs me that a portion of society is marginalised while the other parts of society get to consume as much as they want freely. The biggest cost to health care isn't going to be cardiac in the next ten years, it will obesity/diabetes. I guess we'll see the government play catch-up later.

        • 2 FACTS

          I hate fat people (unless its a decent medical reason). I'd even hate myself if I were to get fat.

          I'd never smoke in a house or apartment. But if I did smoke, I'd care little for some faceless douche bag (unless they politely requested :)

        • The former are examples of addictions while the latter is a physical condition that may be the result of addiction. But it's entirely subjective and unless you're a walking BMI analyser, it's only your opinion.

          In order for your example to make sense, you could label those you consider "fat" as eaters but this would be casting a wide net. So in this case, you could call them over-eaters. If you'd like to dip into one of the seven deadly, why not Gluttons?

  • +4

    The anonymous letter is bluffing. There can be no financial penalties without proof of damages.

    • -1

      Please study the law surrounding this first. A somewhat brief summary can be found here

      Property law is far more complex than most might think. You aren't entitled to do anything you want with your land or on your land, there are limits.

      In most cases an owner or land or an apartment has the right to use and enjoyment of said land or apartment. Behaviour that unreasonably interferes with other people’s rights to the use and enjoyment of their home and community may allow affected neighbour to seek civil penalties / fines from a court or tribunal.

      I believe that is the threat rather than damages. The anonymous letter (even though method of delivery is cowardly) is legitimate, and they might not be bluffing. You can sometimes get obnoxious neighbors who know the law and will do everything in their power to make your life as miserable as possible.

      • That is what a nuisance is, either detrimental to the amenity of the area, or it is a negative health impact created and effecting another person.

  • +3

    Is there anything mentioned in the strata by laws in regards to residential smoking.

    • +2

      There is no by laws say that you cant smoke in your property.

      However new by law can be set by passing in AGM.

      I have friends have be law stated that smoking as the balcony is prohibited as this is not look good from outside of the building, for me who care, but their strata care and warming has been given.

      So there is not 100% true that the by law does not have this rule.

  • +6

    I don't smoke and I don't like second hand smoke but I don't like rude people either. Your aunt's neighbour should have asked nicely for your aunt to minimise smoking during certain periods of the day if possible. But he/she didnt. I guess since your aunt is the owner, she should just do whatever she please since her neighbour seems to be doing the same thing?

  • +33

    I would advise against antagonising the entire building, assuming your Aunt is in NSW then the owners corporation does have the power to pass a bylaw preventing residents from smoking within their lots.

    If the smoke is drifting into neighbouring lots, the residents of those lots could also take your Aunt to NCAT and ask for an order that would force her to take measures to stop drifting into their lot which would probably mean she would have to stop smoking on her balcony.

    http://turnbullbowles.com.au/smoking-prohibition-by-laws-2/

    The idea that because she owns the apartment that she can do whatever she wants as some posters have suggested is not supported by the current laws in NSW, other states may vary.

  • +2

    No smoking is not allow in your own balcony and common area of the building. We have that signs in the building we live in even is very old one. I seen this in new apartment as well as old one. It is the common law. Neighour have right to complain if the smoke cause them the disturbance of their joyfulness of their living. However, you are allow to smoke inside you own home as long as smoke is not disturb to other people.

    You are allow to make smoke inside your apartment definitely not the balcony. Neighbour have right to complain

    However, I don't know about your letter issues

  • +1

    @twadds has it right … Strata in NSW have a lot to say on smoking and even have kits to "achieve smoke-free apartment living". So whilst the threat may be empty now, it wouldn't take a lot to get strata by-laws changed.

  • +2

    Perhaps one of the neighbours is asthmatic? Even the smell of cigarette smoke on someone's clothing can cause asthma symptoms… but still, what they wrote in the letter was wrong.

    • +7

      On another note people with obscene amounts of perfume/cologne should try to understand that they can practically smother some people with breathing issues….

  • +21

    We moved into a brand new apartment complex a little over 2 years ago. At our first AGM we approved our by laws which included being a smoke free property. No one is allowed to smoke anywhere on the premises.

  • +5

    Our neighbours upstairs smoke. The smoke gives my husband asthma-like symptoms and we also have small children. He's tried speaking to them like adults, but they responded by saying that smoke goes up, not down. 😡😡😡

    Eventually though, I think I've observed him going to the nature strip to smoke. Takes a lot of patience.

    I don't want to say your aunt should move out or anything like that, but if she could work on a more amicable solution, then that would be the better tact.

    • +1

      generally smoke does go up, but if there is a breeze it will go everywhere

  • +4

    Its a pretty bad habit since the second hand smoke could cause cancer too. Since your aunt is addicted to it does not mean she can put others around her in jeopardy. If she smokes in her house without affecting others then it shouldn't be a problem. Smoking on balcony affects the neighbors. Imagine kids standing in balcony above hers. It certainly affect the neighbors since we had a similar neighbor

    There have been instances of the smokers being asked to pay hefty fines

    http://www.smh.com.au/comment/neighbours-dont-have-to-put-up…
    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-landlord-ordered-to-pay-110…

    If its affecting your neighbors it would be prudent to go elsewhere to smoke. Even if you own the apartment, it does not give you the right to be a nuisance to fellow neighbors

  • +2

    "In NSW strata committees have the authority to ban smoking by introducing a smoke-free by-law."

    So they can if they want to. The question is, have they, or will they if provoked?

    http://www.cancercouncil.com.au/31948/cancer-prevention/smok…

    Plenty of info there.

    • +2

      If only they had this in VIC :(

    • +1

      I inquired with my body corporate about the smoke free by-law. Turns out there is one in force in my apartment building. When I asked them who enforces the by-law and the penalties that apply, they couldn't provide me with an answer. Has anyone else had similar issues?

    • They will need a special resolution bylaw to set up this rule, and these require a unanimous vote in the strata meeting.. Which your aunt can show up to and say no.

      Shamdog: The owners committee is responsible, but they can delegate to the strata manager (as what normally happens).

      • +2

        Doesn't need to be unanimous to pass a by-law, at least in NSW

        http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/Tenants_and_home_owners/Strata_schemes/Frequently_asked_questions_strata_schemes.page#Our_by-laws_don’t_deal_with_things_I_think_are_important._What_can_I_do?

        just requires 75%

        • nice!

    • Or in ACT :(

  • check the strata by laws. if they are silent then check with fair trading for their opinions. if they say its OK then she is in the clear. just ignore the letter. strata living is not heaven. don't antagonise anyone but assert your rights silently. don't provoke more conflict.
    {I am a non smoker but know how impossible it is to give up the addiction the cig companies and governments persist in peddling.]

  • +1

    Last unit I lived in also banned smoking in areas where smoke can drift into neighbours home. Whether someone has ever been fined, I don't know. But it is enforceable.
    What we need is what we call cancer room back home, an enclosed room where you can smoke to your heart content without affecting other non smokers.

    • +1

      I was on a sleeper train in Romania and they had this. It was called the dining cart :(

  • I agree with people saying people can do whatever they want to in their own houses but OP's aunt lives in an apartment, not a stand alone house. I'm pretty sure the neighbours have the right to enforce non-smoking rule within the building.

  • Check the by-laws. It should mention.

    Failing that, in most strata by-laws usually it's a rule of thumb that you can do whatever you want in your own apartment, as long as it does not intrude into the peace and comfort of other neighbours. This is usually used for sound/noise etc. I think it can be applied to smoking if they can prove the smoking affects them directly.

  • +2

    As someone who's in the position of your aunt's neighbour, I understand why they've done this. I tried to have an adult conversation about smoke entering my apartment from my neighbour's, and she said "I can do whatever I like" (which unfortunately is true).

    Maybe a letter like that would've been more effective.

  • +5

    Ciagrette smoke? Man i wish i could feel bad for you. On most weekends, im smelling more of a grassy smoke smell, where my inner city neighbours decide to chillax.

    • Same problem here… Can any thing be done about this with the police?

      • If you can pin point where its coming from of course you can call the police assistance line.

  • +11

    Technically they don't need a specific by- law in regards to this, in NSW at least. If you live in a strata you most certainly CANNOT do whatever you would like to do.

    If you look up the sample by-laws that 99% of all strata adopt when first registered, it will include a clause about not causing a "nuisance" to other neighbours and allowing "peaceful enjoyment" of their home.
    "Nuisance" definition was recently updated to include a clause that made it clear smoking was included - I can't remember exactly, but it was about damaging others.

    She needs to realise that her choices can give other people cancer. While she might choose to give herself cancer, it is not fair that she gives others cancer without their consent.

    Basically, if ANY smoke whatsoever gets onto common property, or other lots, then under the basic "peaceful enjoyment" and "nuisance" by-laws, she would have to be stopped. And realistically, the smoke must be getting onto common property or other people's lots, or no-one would know that she is smoking and wouldn't have complained.

    Tell her to have a look at the "smoke gets in your eyes" section on flatchat.com.au and she will find more information about how this is generally not allowed. She will also see how people have been taken to NCAT and the like, fined, evicted etc. One strata was even sued because they didn't enforce this, so now most will choose to enforce if someone is complaining because the precedent makes it risky not to.

    She needs to remember this is apartment living, and it doesn't only apply to smoking. You can't make noise whenever you want, you can't drill into common property walls, make changes to any balconies, park wherever you want, make changes to the floor coverings - many things you cannot do without approval in strata living. This is because it is communal, and only works if people are considerate of others. In this case, damaging their health trumps her personal choice.

  • /gif billowing

  • +21

    No sympathy from me. Yeah anonymous passive aggressive letters suck. But if you choose to live in a strata title you also choose to abide by some extra laws. A little bit of extra restrictions so that everyone can hopefully live peacefully. Neighbor wouldn't be writing letters for nothing, so it's clearly bothering them.

    I had a similar experience
    We bought a unit above chain smokers. Our apartment had a through breeze with windows on opposite sides, right above their windows and balcony. As non smokers it was the most awful experience, it was like someone was smoking in our lounge room and it got so bad we couldn't even open our windows. Our apartment stank of their smoke. Every morning and during the night they'd wake up to smoke so you couldn't even open a window at night. Eventually I could even tell the difference in smell when they'd light a new cigarette.

    This is what we did..
    Firstly we went and spoke to them, they were nice enough. but it kept happening, then we'd leave notes with our details and with some wine or cookies, asking them to please smoke inside. Figured we'd try the carrot approach first, but they kept going.

    Eventually we worked with the other owners to propose a change to the building by-laws, banning smoking anywhere outside the building, in common areas. Plus another law banning smoke drift. If you wanted to smoke, you could do it in your own little bubble fine, but not bother anyone else. Laws passed unanimously (they were renting, so couldn't vote). It was easy to pass because the building was doughnut shaped, and the smoke drift impacted everyone, just to a lesser extent.

    They kept at it, got warning letters from strata, and then evicted by their landlord for failing to abide by the by-laws. The women neighbor confronted my wife in the lifts complaining that we'd forced them out, mrs told them to f-off and offered to help them move! Met the landlord who wanted to move back in after they left, she said she had to spend thousands on cleaning it, totally re-carpeted and re-painted. yet still smelt awful inside.

    Your situation…..
    All depends on what's in the by-laws. If there is nothing specific about smoke drift then it's very difficult for strata to enforce no smoking. But not impossible as some posters have mentioned if it's causing enough of a nuisance. But I'd advise that you be considerate, being around smokers regularly you might not know just how irritating it can be to have cigarette smoke inside your own house.

    And ffs, why doesn't she quit? Keep trying, don't give up. Stop making excuses.
    And in strata there is no "privacy of your own balcony", it doesn't exist. Privacy exists inside your apartment when you don't have smoke drifting to others.

    • -2

      I think the message here is not to tolerate your neighbours and "abide by some extra laws". It would more accurately be, "if you don't like something, find a technicality and change the rules."

      • +6

        I'm pretty tolerant. But we were basically living in a windowless box, I can't describe how bad it was. It was effectively like having lit cigarettes below all of your windows 24/7. I'm guessing you don't know what that's like.

        And what technicality?!?! Strata passed the by-law unanimously, we didn't even go to the strata meeting to vote as we were away.

        • +1

          I'm pretty tolerant. But we were basically living in a windowless box, I can't describe how bad it was. It was effectively like having lit cigarettes below all of your windows 24/7. I'm guessing you don't know what that's like.

          And what technicality?!?! Strata passed the by-law unanimously, we didn't even go to the strata meeting to vote as we were away.

          "if you don't like something, find a technicality and change the rules."

          I'd correct you there: If you don't like something, do something about it.

          We tried being nice, but it didn't work.

        • +6

          @ChickenTalon: You're totally right.

          It's not "dont tolerate your neighbours" like tshow is making out.

          Tolerating something is different - so maybe they have their music up louder than you'd like at 9pm, or they park really close to your spot so it's hard to get out of your car etc. Tolerating those things is different.

          It's pretty stupid to "tolerate" something that can kill you. That's why we have laws against drink driving etc - we don't just "tolerate" people doing things that harm others.

          That's why smoking is also banned in other public areas.

        • -6

          @mrsi:
          I'm not promoting tolerance for any hippie notion.

          I'm saying you may have to tolerate nuisances because it is happening in private property. You're affected because your property is in close proximity. Your property is in close proximity because it is a cost-efficient dwelling.

          Tolerating drink driving doesn't have anything to do with this. The road is a public amenity.

          It seems you have public and private space confused.

        • @ChickenTalon:
          The technicality is that a by-law has to be passed unanimously. Your complaint was against someone with no voting power.

          Your presence in the voting process is irrelevant.

          I don't promote smoking nor defend it but I can empathize with tenants who signed up for one thing and ended up having to deal with another. In this case, when he moved in, he was allowed to smoke on the balcony. Now he is evicted because the new by-laws prohibits his lifestyle.

          It's similar to buying a motorized scooter after watching a mall commercial then being banned from using said scooter in said mall after new rules are enacted.

        • +3

          @tshow:
          In nsw by laws do not need to be passed unanimously, just a majority.

          Public space is any common property. Common property INCLUDES balconies, in most unit blocks. They are common property with an exclusive use by law.

          The air surrounding the units, is not private property. And yes, since you live in close dwellings you need to have regard for others.

          Again, personal choice of something that kills others does not get "right of way".

          How is it any different from wanting to smoke in your favourite pub? You were allowed before now you're not.
          Again, if they were doing it in their unit where it wasn't affecting anyone else, no one would probably care. But living in units means you can't do things that harm anothers.

          It does not mean people that live in units need to put up with being harmed because they live close to others. The responsibility, legally in nsw, lies with you not to cause the harm.

        • +3

          @tshow: so much misinformation.

          The technicality is that a by-law has to be passed unanimously

          According to who?!? Here in NSW it's 75% of owners required to pass a change to the by-laws, same in SA.

          Issue is that activities conducted in a strata title can be controlled within reason and when owners agree. This is the law, not some sneaky technicality. It's part of living in a strata, it's designed to be that way. By-laws can be created to deal with exactly these types of issues. If you want more control over how much you can be a prick and disregard your neighbors then buy a private title house.

          Say you want to keep piles of rotting garbage in your car space in the shared underground carpark. It's your parking space right?!? Who cares if it stinks and causes a plague of rats to move into the building. Well strata would be well within their rights to pass a by-law requiring that no rubbish be stored in the carpark to keep pests and vermin away. Strata would also be within their rights to clean it up and send the owner the bill.

          Especially don't rent in a strata title if you want to be a prick, because you have even less rights as a non-owner.

          Basically. There is no God given right to have cancer causing stinky cigarette smoke drift onto common property or into other people's apartments.

          I can also empathise with the neighbors who fell foul of the new laws. We tried to be nice, but it just got too much. Can you imagine someone standing outside all of your open windows blowing cigarette smoke in? That's what it was like. If they wanted to smoke they could easily do so in the privacy of their own home, having made sure that no smoke could drift out by closing all of their windows. The by-laws were drafted specifically to allow this, hence the target of the laws we proposed was "smoke drift"

        • +1

          @ChickenTalon:
          I'm glad the law worked in your favour and I am absolutely on board with removing tobacco from sales entirely.

          I just do not agree that residents who have paid for their residence and have been smoking on the same spot for years can be forced to stop by people who've just moved in and decided they cannot stand the environment.

          It's the same as residents complaining about aircraft noise when they move in next to the airport.

          It's an apartment. Want no noise, no smell, no visual offence? Buy a hectare in the hills.

          PS. I concede that I am misinformed regarding voting details. Hardly qualifies as "so much misinformation".

        • +5

          @tshow: an airport is pretty noticeable. No way to tell we were buying above chain smokers before we moved in. We wouldn't have bought in if we'd known how bad it would get. We inspected the place twice and reviewed all of the strata meeting notes, as did our lawyer. It was a big investment for us and we were very careful.

          What else should we have done?

          Initially it actually wasn't so bad, but still annoying, I think they had a third person move in and really ramped up the smoking.

          And quit with the straw man arguments

          Want no noise, no smell, no visual offence

          No one is saying zero tolerance. But there are lines that have to be drawn somewhere so that everyone can live reasonably peacefully. I don't mind the odd late night party and music, but I'll object to it everynight. Hence why we have strata schemes to manage these issues.

        • +3

          @ChickenTalon:

          Just my 2 cents…

          Airports won't kill you. Smoking kills people.

        • @ChickenTalon:
          Seems like you're rightfully complaining about excessive smoke, not smoking in isolation.

          I'd check for maximum occupancy and/or sub-leasing. Get rid of particular neighbours but don't make a sweeping change that potentially affects someone who doesn't deserve it.

          You can check to make sure your neighbours downstairs don't smoke. Neighbours change but your living situation in that apartment stays the same. It is close quarter living.

          I'm put off by apartments after my uni days, I've sworn off sharing a wall with anyone. In fact, I spend half my week in the country because of all the things you and I both dislike.

          Sometimes, the issue is not your neighbours being bad. It is the good folk that put themselves in the situation to begin with.

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