Issue Red Light Camera - Advice Needed

Lvinayagar on 21/09/2016 - 15:25
Last edited 21/09/2016 - 15:43 by 1 other user

Got a mail today asking to pay the fine to RTA for not stopping at the RED light signal.

Scenario

  1. It is a 2 lane road and I was supposed to turn left.
  2. But I'm the 1st car on the right most lane.
  3. The signal was 'RED' for the cars to go straight and it was 'GREEN' to turn left.
  4. Since I was on the right most lane, I turned on the left indicator, did a head check and moved my car towards left.
  5. BAM! The RED camera flashed twice.

Question

  1. Is it illegal to turn left from the right lane even after following all the regular procedures?
  2. Are the cameras faulty?
  3. Can I give my explanation to RTA?
  4. Anyone experienced this before?
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Comments

  • nocure on 21/09/2016 - 15:28
    +34

    Is it illegal to turn left from the right lane…

    yes, unless marked

    even after following all the regular procedures

    ?

    • vinayagar on 21/09/2016 - 15:39

      I stopped at the red light, later realized that I should turn left.
      There were no cars on the Left lane. I turned on the indicator and did a head check to turn left.

      • kheob on 21/09/2016 - 15:48
        +7

        When you say you were 'supposed' to turn left, do you mean the arrows pointed left or you wanted to turn left?

        • Kangal on 21/09/2016 - 17:37
          +6

          I think he means he got to the stop line, and it was red to go forward but green to turn left.
          Then thought, I'm in the lane to go forward.
          I want to turn left.
          Turned left, got caught.

        • [Deactivated] on 25/09/2016 - 15:19

          @Kangal:
          Thank you, I had no hope of understanding otherwise.

      • stueyh on 21/09/2016 - 17:42
        +29

        It's illegal to change lanes that close to the intersection too, so heading in to state your claim might result in a second fine, I'd just pay my fine and accept that some road rules need to be checked up on

        • cameldownunder on 22/09/2016 - 16:18
          +6

          Swap one fine for another. See what come CHEAPER !

        • usmanyousaf on 24/09/2016 - 21:49
          +2

          Red light fine is $300+ with 3 demerit points in Victoria.
          Changing lane illegally is $150 with 1 demerit point.

          vinayagar did not went through the red light. It was green when he turn left while on the wrong lane.

        • aboabo on 25/09/2016 - 14:29

          @usmanyousaf: Ah I see, the red light was green.

        • stueyh on 27/09/2016 - 16:15

          @usmanyousaf: If he crossed the white line while in the right hand lane to go to the left, he ran the red light too, you can't enter the intersection in that right hand lane, even if you are turning left

        • usmanyousaf on 28/09/2016 - 00:02

          @stueyh:
          Yeah…i got it.
          I was lucky once i had the same issue but didnt receive any fine.

      • ThithLord on 23/09/2016 - 08:35
        +20

        Illegal manoeuvre. You haven't got a chance of getting this one off - for all intents and purposes, you've run a red light, regardless of the fact that you wanted to turn left. It just doesn't work like that; and frankly, that's just shitty driving.

    • dogboy on 21/09/2016 - 17:04
      +4

      Was this in Victoria with their weird 'turn right from left most lane' thing?

      • [Deactivated] on 21/09/2016 - 17:45
        +4

        Given that it's about the RTA and there's no such thing in Victoria, probably not Victoria.

        Hook turns are only at tram tracks.

        • giventofly on 23/09/2016 - 11:08

          And are easy and completely logical.

        • Serapis on 23/09/2016 - 23:17

          OP's profile says Ashfield + mentioned RTA so OP is in NSW

      • amkssg on 21/09/2016 - 17:49
        +1

        Definitely not. The "turn right from left most lane thing" requires you to follow the regular green light (which means, keep left and only cross the white line WHEN the light is GREEN).

      • Baysew on 22/09/2016 - 10:17
        +8

        No, this was in NSW. OP has created weird 'turn left from most right lane' thing.

      • JimmyF on 22/09/2016 - 20:53

        Dude its a weird right turn from the left… so no

    • MATTDAMON on 24/09/2016 - 23:28

      Correction, its illegal unless the vehicle you are operating is longer then 8m and displaying the do not overtake whilst turning marks as per ADR's. Trucks is perfectly legal to turn left from the middle/right lane.

  • Adz81 on 21/09/2016 - 15:29
    +1

    So… you possibly crossed over the line (while changing lanes) when it was still red?

    To me this looks to be a case of, "they've got you", but you could try approaching them and stating your case, but I'd suggest the result you get would depend on who you get on the day, how you talk to them, and the day they've had/

  • spackbace on 21/09/2016 - 15:30
    +61

    Dammit, just when you think you'll go a day without seeing a stupid forum post, along comes this one!

    • Adz81 on 21/09/2016 - 15:35
      +8

      Chin-up, I don't think we've had today's ranting about non-existent consumer rights from an infallible (in no way self-entitled), hard done by (completely faultless), well mannered (not a complete ass) member who then demands a new gold-plated thingamy because they didn't get something they didn't pay for… So there's that, at least.

      • spackbace on 21/09/2016 - 15:37
        +4

        Well, Officeworks just cancelled orders for a pricing error, so don't hold your breath on that one…!

        • Adz81 on 21/09/2016 - 15:42
          +3

          Ah, man… Just had to search for OW and then read the comments on the damn monitor… Of COURSE the ACCC was mentioned.

          Yeah, fair point. The above mentioned scenario probably won't be today.

        • nocure on 21/09/2016 - 16:36
          +1

          All orders except one😀

        • StewBalls on 21/09/2016 - 19:05
          +4

          @Adz81: I suppose we should consider ourselves lucky the OP isn't also telling us he earns a bajillion dollars at the same time…

          The guys who claim to be on six-figure salaries, yet apparently still can't muster enough commonsense to come in out of the rain crack me up.

        • ShortyX on 23/09/2016 - 19:16

          Ignore

  • rompastompa on 21/09/2016 - 15:38
    +4

    Did you go over a solid white line?

    The answer will be yes. You cannot go over the solid white line. What you did is illegal and usually dangerous (for pedestrians as well as other vehicles around you.

    • dlf73 on 21/09/2016 - 16:04
      +1

      So how do bikes that weave through stopped cars when coming up to a red light, obviously crossing the solid line many times in the process not get booked? Not a dig at you, would seriously like to know!

      • rompastompa on 21/09/2016 - 16:49
        +2

        cough Technically, we don't go over the solid line.

        We stay in the lane, however some cars/trucks are too close to the white line so we 'appear' to cross the lane for safety reasons. :)

        • Kangal on 21/09/2016 - 17:41
          +6

          I usually swerve aside, to give bikes more space, because I look behind me as well as front.
          It's an awesome feeling when the biker rolls through and gives you a hand-waive high five as a Thank You.

        • dlf73 on 21/09/2016 - 19:18

          @Kangal: yeah generally they are fine and they don't hold you up anyways when the lights turn green! I like looking at other drivers when they do it, you generally see someone cursing!

        • dlf73 on 21/09/2016 - 19:26

          So it's one in the same!

      • rompastompa on 21/09/2016 - 19:00
        +2

        Off topic, but FYI - lane Filtering is legal. See Queensland, NSW

        Lane splitting/filtering is an unsafe practice which usually contravenes the road rules. While the Australian Road Rules and WA Road Traffic Code 2000 do not explicitly ban lane splitting/filtering, they do prohibit the practice by virtue of the fact that a number of other rules may be and are regularly contravened during the manoeuvres, such as not signalling before a lane change, riding with the wheels on the lane line, crossing continuous lane lines, safe overtaking and so on. - WA

        Motorcycle lane splitting is when motorcycles travel at a high speed between moving traffic. Lane splitting is illegal and the Victorian Government does not support motorcyclists, and drivers, who split lanes.
        Lane filtering is when a motorcycle or scooter travels at low speeds through stopped or slow moving traffic.
        It is legal in Victoria and affects all road users. - VIC

        So basically, lane filtering in heavy traffic is legal providing you're not breaking other road rules, or traveling at speed (>30kmph, though in WA you can go the speed limit still as it's not illegal ;)).

        • dlf73 on 21/09/2016 - 19:15

          Ah good to know thanks. Personally dontn care if they'd do it just thought it may have been double standards! Thanks.

        • Tnetennba on 22/09/2016 - 18:08
          +2

          Also legal in ACT, provided you've had a bike license long enough.

      • Harold Halfprice on 25/09/2016 - 17:18

        It is called "Lane Filtering" and is actually legal to do so in many states now - which is moving through SLOW moving (<30km/h in Vic) or stationary traffic. This is NOT the same as being an absolute idiot and splitting lanes at stupid speeds (100km/h+).

        It's actually a lot safer for motorcyclists to do so, as if someone does not stop and hits you from behind you will be sandwiched between that car and the car in front of you. Being sandwiched between a few tonnes of metal can leave you with some horrible permanent injuries or possibly even be fatal.

        Additionally, it means when the lights go green, the motorcycles will be at the front of the traffic and not hidden amongst a sea of cars and reduces the chances of someone cutting in front of you.

        It also has the added benefit of reducing traffic congestion for everyone on the road.

  • Ryanek on 21/09/2016 - 15:38
    +12

    If that was you on Cumberland Highway last night I saw you! I had a grin I must admit.

    • huydn on 23/09/2016 - 00:30
      +2

      Do they send out fines that quickly?

  • scrimshaw on 21/09/2016 - 15:47
    +3

    Only leftmost lane can turn left, in that situation. The camera is triggered when you cross that line.

    Did you look at the arrows on the road?

    In this pattern:

    ↰ | ￪

    On the right lane, you cannot GO if the light is RED.

    On the left lane, you can GO if the light is GREEN (must stop for pedestrian first) or GREEN ARROW LEFT.

    • battler on 21/09/2016 - 16:00

      probably also means you can run red lights (to go straight) from the left lane (as long as left turn is green)

      • Kangal on 21/09/2016 - 19:21

        Maybe, maybe not.

        It depends on where they've put the pressure pads/sensors.
        High-use intersections usually get the luxury treatment, but many others get neglected.
        Meanwhile, more and more redlight speed cameras are installed in both "luxury" and "cheap" intersections.

  • [Deactivated] on 21/09/2016 - 15:50
    +3

    Lol

  • NancyCat on 21/09/2016 - 16:11
    +35

    You've broken two road rules:
    1. Turning left from the right most lane.
    2. Not stopping at a red light.

    You should considered yourself as lucky for only being booked for one offense. If there was a cop behind you, he could have given you 2 fines!

    • ThithLord on 23/09/2016 - 08:39
      +9

      And rightfully so. I can't stand drivers like OP - you don't get to break the rules where you see fit because you just had to turn left.

      • grasstown on 03/10/2016 - 17:57
        -1

        But it was safe to do so and not holding up anyone.

        • ThithLord on 05/10/2016 - 12:22

          Enjoy the ticket :)

        • grasstown on 05/10/2016 - 12:53

          @ThithLord: so you can't stand because it's illegal. I thought you can't stand for an actual reason like it's unsafe or holding someone up. Ok.

          My comment was not anything other than asking the reason you can't stand

  • thetrain on 21/09/2016 - 17:36
    -1

    Ask RTA for a review and state you turned left.

  • [Deactivated] on 21/09/2016 - 17:48

    $400+ down the toilet

    • frewer on 22/09/2016 - 18:41
      +2

      Are you saying the government treasure is a toilet ?

      • Davo1111 on 24/09/2016 - 02:28
        +2

        After working in government, yes.

  • Tuba on 21/09/2016 - 18:08
    +6

    1. If it flashed twice, you are well over the line. The first flash is just to one side of the line, the second is set off by a different system that demonstrates your entire car is over the line. Its operated by a hoop that senses your car over the top of it. You are completely over the line, by a fair margin.

    2. If you then stopped but did not proceed through the intersection against the straight red, then you have not breached the law the cameras enforce. Depending on state, but Im pretty sure all are the same in this regard.

    If things are as i read your issue, I would ask for it to be reviewed. You can only be fined for running the red from a red light camera. If you did not proceed into and through the intersection on red, youve not breached the LIMITED camera related laws.

    Be aware, they will know what you did, they have more than the one picture, and usually video. But the officer will not have looked at that, just the evidence before him that says you went against he red. They will when you lodge a review, and they will see exactly what you did so no point just trying to lie your way through.

    Yes a cop COULD have booked you for failing to stop before the line, but they have to be there. The camera can not be used to fine you for anything other than running the red light. They are limited by strict rules of use.

    The offences you have committed, fail to stop before the line (this is not the same as running a red). Failure to observe traffic lane directional arrows etc. None of these are fineable from the cameras evidence.

    • masadav on 22/09/2016 - 20:32
      +2

      I think it's important to inform you (and others that read your comment) that your understanding of how red light / speed cameras work is incorrect. I'm not saying this to be an ass but to stop spreading misinformation.

      Red light cameras and speed cameras do not record video footage.
      http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/speeding/speedcameras…

      I'm not an expert but have some knowledge of traffic signals and inductive loops. 1 set of loops past the white line is detecting red light violations. 2 sets of loops is used for speed violations (in addition to red light violations).

      2 flashes is timed for red light violations to prove you continued through the intersection (not a second system). Red light violation will always cause 2 flashes. 1 flash is for speed violation (because the loops are detecting your speed regardless of the state of the traffic lights).

      It's also worth noting that only rear-facing cameras (that take your rear plates) have a flash. Front facing cameras use infra-red (because obviously they don't want to blind drivers).

      • bigticket on 24/09/2016 - 13:52
        +1

        1 flash is for speed violation (because the loops are detecting your speed

        As far as I know and I agree with your post entirely, except for the above. Maybe its a poor choice of wording and reads the wrong, but inductive loops detect the presence of your vehicle not the speed. The speed is detected by radar units located on the posts where the red light cameras are prior to the intersection.

        • masadav on 28/09/2016 - 20:16

          I'm quite confident that fixed speed cameras rely on inductive loops for speed detection. One post has a flasher unit (or infrared unit) and the other has a camera. Radar is used for mobile speed cameras, but I've never seen a fixed camera site without loops unless it has recently been resurfaced (and you will see how quickly the loops come back).

          Have a look on google street view at any fixed speed camera site you and will see dual loops cut into the road where the camera is aimed. (Princes Hwy, Kogarah is a good example -33.967363, 151.136615). Woodville Rd, Yennora is another (you can see this on both sides of the road -33.867437, 150.987823).

        • masadav on 28/09/2016 - 20:20

          Additionally, the way speed detection with loops works is the loops are cut to a specific length and are set a specific distance apart. Having a known distance between 2 loops and measuring the time between detections you can calculate speed. This is how the majority of speed detection on motorways and open roads is measured.

        • bigticket on 03/10/2016 - 18:08

          @masadav: Sorry did notice your reply.
          I still disagree. Inductive loops, I imagine would produce a something like voltage bell curve, as the vehicle approaches-passes over-leaves the loop.
          I suppose you could trigger at a voltage around the inflection point on the curve and you would have to assume the both loops are identical and the vehicle passes over in the identical position.
          For loops close together at intersections it would be inaccurate for legal reasons. Over a larger distances, as on motorways that you have mentioned, it would be accurate enough.

          The two loops are there to trigger the camera, the second to show the vehicle has entered the intersection and I don't see them having a dual purpose of measuring speed as well.

        • masadav on 04/10/2016 - 17:11

          @bigticket: It would appear that some do indeed use Radar according this as well as road embedded detectors (likely Piezo's in hindsight).
          http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/speeding/speedcameras…

        • bigticket on 05/10/2016 - 12:48

          @masadav: Thanks for the info. Didn't realise there were any road embedded speed sensors.

  • bobbified on 21/09/2016 - 19:26

    No use speculating now.

    First thing to do, ask for copies of the photographs so that you can see what basis they're issuing you the fine for.
    For a red light camera, there should be two pictures.

    Have a look at those, THEN determine your next course of action.

    (And don't forget to post the pictures up here so that we can see too!)

  • jeanene on 22/09/2016 - 09:57
    +1

    Yep sorry my daughter got done in a similar situation she was in the turning lane and decided to go straight instead. Got fined for going against the road markings not for running a red light.

  • currentfad on 22/09/2016 - 17:45
    +2

    I've seen this exact scenario happen to 2 people, both of which were stupid manoeuvres from an onlookers perspective.

    In both scenarios, they crossed a solid white line in attempt to turn left from a right side lane which is not permitted. Highly doubt you'd get away with this one OP.

  • Ughhh on 22/09/2016 - 18:04
    +7

    I turned on the left indicator, did a head check and moved my car towards left.

    Indicating and doing a head check doesnt give you the automatic right to make the move.

    Is it illegal to turn left from the right lane even after following all the regular procedures?

    Nothing you did was regular procedure.

    If I was in your position, I would either:
    1. Provided there is no cars behind me or coming behind me and no cops, I would quickly reverse, enough so that I can steer without going past that white line.
    2. Continue the road the lane allows, then later do a (legal) uturn or something.

  • McFly on 22/09/2016 - 18:15
    +4

    Your bonut can not cross the line at a red light. Bonuts cause more problems than they're worth!

    • Wallyt99 on 22/09/2016 - 19:25
      +2

      +++ Old school ozbargain.

    • Halc on 23/09/2016 - 14:23
      +2

      yum, bonuts.

  • [Deactivated] on 22/09/2016 - 18:53
    +4

    Op created an account just to put his mind at ease a little. The fact of the matter is you got done, cop the $400 and 3 demerit points because you broke the law.

    • nautic on 22/09/2016 - 23:08
      -2

      $400 when they didn't proceed through the intersection?

      • greatlamp on 23/09/2016 - 06:53
        +1

        Someone who was turning left from the left lane could decide to take up the right lane in the next road.

        OP would have crashed into them

        100% deserves a fine. If you miss a turn do a U turn don't risk other people's safety

        • nautic on 23/09/2016 - 16:07

          so I'm guessing they should now make all traffic fines $400, according to you.

      • ThithLord on 23/09/2016 - 08:42

        So what? Still broke the law

        • nautic on 23/09/2016 - 16:08

          did I say they didn't?

        • ThithLord on 26/09/2016 - 12:04

          @nautic: Did I say you said that they didn't? This could go on for loops, dude.

  • omgilia on 22/09/2016 - 21:05

    Personal experience right here I was in the right lane turning right but changed of mind and wanted to go straight in the left lane next to me indicated turn left and went straight no cars but me. Flashed twice got a fine appealed and got off. I'm from melbourne so laws or the people reviewing the evidence could be different to where you live.

    Edit: I got flashed ONCE. Could be a different scenario judging from Tuba's comment

    • [Deactivated] on 22/09/2016 - 22:35

      how the fck does machine now can tell you go straight from the right lane ???? Terminator next?

  • JimmyF on 22/09/2016 - 23:44
    -1

    write in, explain your issue. See if they let you off with a 'warning'.

  • WhatWouldBiggieDo on 23/09/2016 - 09:24

    If what you said happened is actually what happened, it should be pretty clear from the photo?

    I would have thought that if you were turning hard to make the left turn from the right lane the camera would have taken a pic of the side of your car?

  • daewoo on 23/09/2016 - 12:22
    +1

    Why doesn't OzBargain limit newbies to comments until they have sufficient hours?

    Member Since: 08/09/2016
    Statistics: 1 posts / 2 comments

    • [Deactivated] on 23/09/2016 - 12:52

      hes a troll, hasnt been seen since

      • nautic on 23/09/2016 - 16:10

        does it come as a surprise that you may have scared him or her away? I'm hoping no.

    • ShortyX on 23/09/2016 - 19:21
      +1

      It's jv using another account!

      Where is the justice?

  • MrMcHairyHead on 23/09/2016 - 13:20
    +1

    I think it's pretty obviously illegal and you did the wrong thing here.

  • bocca on 23/09/2016 - 14:19

    Unless youre in melbourne and turning right, no chance!

  • wangjanim on 23/09/2016 - 16:31

    If you crossed the stop line from the right lane in order to turn left, then it still would be running a red. if you had changed lanes and crossed the line from the left hand lane, then the camera would not have flashed.

  • greencomet on 23/09/2016 - 16:43
    +4

    Yeah, what you did is illegal. I had a guy next to me at the lights a few weeks back, he was in a right turning lane and I was next to him going straight. The light turned green to go straight and he took off quickly through the red arrow, then cut in front of me to go straight. He got flashed by the camera, I was happy…

    You've gone through a red light in the wrong lane in order to turn left. It's illegal to go through a red light obviously, but it's also illegal to change lanes leading up to (solid lines) or in an intersection regardless of head checking or making sure it's safe beforehand. You were breaking the law and got pinged, pay the fine and get on with life.

    • usmanyousaf on 24/09/2016 - 21:44
      -1

      He was in the wrong lane when he turned left. Since the left signal was green while he was turning, he did not gone through the red light.

      • NancyCat on 25/09/2016 - 11:44

        He was the first car in this wrong lane, his car had to cross the stop line to make a turn. Crossing the stop line at the red light is illegal, doesn't matter the driver was turning left or right or going straight.

        • usmanyousaf on 25/09/2016 - 12:28

          To get red light infringement notice, there must be an evidence that you CROSSED the intersection while the lights red.

          But he turn left from right lane. Irrespective of what lane he was, he had to cross the stop lane. Since he was on right lane while the lights red, the camera normally falshes twice to record the position of the car both times.
          But the 2 pictures taken from the camera should give evidence that he did go through the straight light while the lights red but never went straight through. Infact he turned left where the lights were green.

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