Hi Ozbargainers,
I am a single father with a son who is about to start primary school in Sydney. I want to give him a good education and have been considering putting him into a private school.
Obviously being the only income earner it would mean the school fees would take up quite a bit of my savings. Therefore I'm debating on whether to put him in a private or public school. What do you guys think? Will he get the same education? Appreciate your thoughts and experience!
Good education ultimately depends on the peers. I started at a partially selective high school (but in mainstream) then transitioned to a selective high school. There's really not much difference in teaching quality but a remarkable difference in student quality. At the comprehensive school, we screwed around most of the time, had fun and did some learning. Very good for social development but not so academic. At the selective school, we had plenty of fun but when it came time to work, we all put our heads down, worked and helped each other out. Excellent social and academic development.
If you want your kid to have excellent educational outcomes, then gun for a selective school. Otherwise, a comprehensive high school is excellent too. I haven't been to private but I reckon educational outcomes would be very similar to public schools. I would recommend going public and putting any money you can afford into extracurricular activities. Participating in sports, drama, music, art etc will help your son develop into a well rounded person.
VERY IMPORTANT. Discuss this with your son and see what he wants in terms of educational outcomes, extracurricular, friends etc. Maybe he wants to go to the public school with all his friends. Maybe he wants a change. Very important to talk to him re: these matters.
Ok I goofed and didn't read properly. For primary school you have a few options:
Public follows the NSW curriculum as well as the catholic/private schools. Expect about 25-30ish students per classroom teacher. Teachers are normally excellent but hit and miss.
Catholic/private schools do give some leeway to perform religious events such as mass. Classrooms in catholic/private schools tend to be smaller (~20 students), more manageable and better learning environment (due to peers). However, teachers are stricter in their teaching/student discipline approach.
Independent schools, like Montessori, are rather unstructured and let students do whatever they want. They have about 1 teacher per 1-4 students and their approach is kinda based on getting the older kids to teach/help the younger kids learn. Very different type of schooling, I recommend that you look up some youtube videos. It's not for everyone but a very unique learning environment. Montessori Link.
It's getting late where I am so I'll try elaborate on this more if need be.
Whats the goal? Sounds like a silly question, but until you know that you won't know the right answer. Either option is suited to a different set of characteristics.
The biggest reason to go private is the networking opportunities, but if your son is not equiped to take advantage of those opportunites there are better ways to spend the money.
Public school for primary, but private school for high school. The level of schooling is very similar, but the connections and people he'll meet will be night and day.
The education and the peer group at Government schools defer markedly depending on the area the school is located. Where in Sydney are you?
The private school fees are just the start. Then you have things like uniforms/excursions etc which are a lot more expensive at a private school.
Also consider university. A lot of the guys from private schools really struggled as it was such a different system.
Cost and uni aside, I made up my mind a long time ago. My kinds will never go to a Christian/catholic school. Not until they’re smart enough to think critically about what their teachers are saying. Until then, my children will be taught facts only thanks. I want them to understand why they should behave and have ethics, not because someone said they should.
"A lot of the guys from private schools really struggled as it was such a different system."
EVERYONE struggles in their first year of university, it isn't exclusive to one type of group. No idea why you got this idea from
I agree with the catholic part though, if it was high school then it doesn't really matter because they are mature enough to understand the differences.
I want them to understand why they should behave and have ethics, not because someone said they should.
At the risk of getting a bit sidetracked, sounds like you want your kids to have objective moral reasoning, which actually is one of the stronger arguments for the theistic world view. There is already probably more discussion on it online than you could read in a lifetime so don't plan to rehash it again but Sam Harris and William Lane Craig are probably two of the best minds on the opposing sides, so their debate, although a bit long, is good summary of a far lengthier discussion.
https://youtu.be/ggn-XNlD9sU
want your kids to have objective moral reasoning, which actually is one of the stronger arguments for the theistic world view
Utter rubbish.
Morals based on demonstrable falsehoods and jesus says so. Institutionalised abuse and coverups to protect the all important church. Keep it to your own children thanks. Pray to jesus they never resent you for it.
It's not utter rubbish at all, Harris is in the minority of prominent atheist's who thinks that objective moral reasoning is possible in a atheistic world. Most realise that the two aren't compatable. Seems like you haven't even scratched the surface of the issue.
You can only logically teach your kids two out of the three.
1) Follow reasoning
2) There is objective morality.
3) Deism isn't possible.
You have no idea. I have studied the bible and its teachings more than 95% of christians. I know the kjv and niv inside out. I have read them over and over. I know all the circular arguments for following jesus, so there is no need to repeat them to me as some amazing revelation I haven’t considered. Most of my life I've been on the other end of this sort of discussion.
But keep going. Maybe you’ll come up with a great one? Praying for me would be just as effective, after all he’s in control. Not you.
@ChickenTalon: Im very interesting in this "circular arguments for following Jesus", can you elaborate that ? Im a immigrant, a converter and also went through the indoctrinated education system in the East. Btw I don't generalized all Australian as convicted, bogan or racist.
@ChickenTalon: I haven't tried to convince you of anything except to look into it more, if what you say is true then it sounds like you have looked into it. Your original comment sounded like a desire for your kids to have an objective morality which most theists and common sense atheists agree can't occur in a world without a higher power, only subjective morality. This is usually a sign of someone who hasn't really thought things through but if you actually have looked into it to arrive where you have then good for you.
A lot of the guys from private schools really struggled as it was such a different system.
What makes public schools so different that people don't struggle there? In my area, public school students if they managed to get into uni, dropped out as they still valued their social life above their education.
Parent thinks 'get a tutor' once they see their grades - but a tutor can only help them if they want to be helped. For one hour per week for a school year (40 weeks), it would cost $1760 per year (I work for a tutoring agency who charges $44 per hour, so based it on that)
If they actually want to learn and get good grades - $1760 per year well spent. I'll tell you right now however, an overwhelming majority (~85%) go to a private school and are willing to learn. About ~10% of students go to a public school and couldn't care less about school (even in Year 12). The remaining 5% of students go to a public school and want to learn.
Also, don't ever hold your children back from excursions because of the cost. You can get second hand uniform, and even get your fees paid for at a Catholic school if cost is that much of a factor.
I think private school students would struggle more than public school students at uni because they're more likely to get support in high school if they are struggling, and will do OK even if they aren't so good at studying because of all the support systems in place. But, once at uni, they are totally on their own which they might not be used to. However, in a public school, students already have to be self-motivated and develop the skills to study independently if they want to do well, there are less support systems in place for struggling students. The strugglers probably wouldn't get a score good enough to get into a good uni course and the ones that worked out how to study independently can use those skills at uni.
TL;DR: anyone who wouldn't have done well at uni in the public system won't end up going or will do an easier course, whereas more of those sorts of people will do OK in the private system so they'll struggle when all the help is gone. Leading to public school students doing better at uni.
I went to a private school and never got such "support". The only kind of support I got was piece of mind that the people in my grade were smart and would hence push me up.
I wasn't exactly motivated and I know that in the public system I would've fried.
Fast forward to uni, motivated as anything doing something I enjoy with people the same as I am. Getting good grades, putting in the effort and all that.
I guess, if you don't get 'help/support' in the first place, you can't struggle when it's gone?
@pennypincher98: I guess it depends what sort of private school —- you had the same "benefit" as public school students in that you had to sink or swim, and luckily swam, and carried those skills over to uni :)
I have no idea what the stats were, but my experience was seeing a lot of the private school guys struggling, far more than the public school guys. My opinion was that uni was closer to a public school than a private school. Maybe less of a shock to the system?
No one at uni is going to make you study hard, you've got to want it. If you don't want it you will not be successful at uni. Very similar to a public school. I'm not saying that private schools have worse overall outcomes, maybe they are more likely to make it to uni in the first place? Pushing people there who really should be doing something else? Or does being in a public school teach you to learn independently better? I don't know. I went to a selective state school, where a lot of students were self-motivated, some had pressure from home to perform, but not many.
Difficult questions to answer.
My opinion was that uni was closer to a public school than a private school. Maybe less of a shock to the system
Yet they are many more public schools compared to private, leading to the fact that private school kids have to travel a lot more than public. (Compare 2 mins to 30 mins)
Uni is 1hr 40mins one way on public transport. 3 1/2 hours return trip. Doesn't bother me, can study or watch lectures/Netflix (LOL)
Private school and public school kids and outcomes vary greatly according to where you are.
I had pressure to perform, but without motivation my parents kind of dropped all that and was happy with what I got. Regardless, I got into what I wanted anyway :)
depends on where you live? where I live there are more private schools than public school, but a place like Dandenong or Sunshine, I don't even know if they have 1 private school within 10km radius. In fact, for all of Melbourne's West, I can only think of 1 private grammar school, westbourne, yet in camberwell/kew, you have like 8 private schools easy.
I made up my mind a long time ago. My kinds will never go to a Christian/catholic school. Not until they’re smart enough to think critically about what their teachers are saying. Until then, my children will be taught facts only thanks. I want them to understand why they should behave and have ethics, not because someone said they should.
you are sending them to a "Catholic" school not to a church 5 days a week. There is a big difference. Sure you get extra studies in religious education, have mass, and the head master is a brother/father/sister but you still learn all the same stuff any other school in the state teaches. Did you know they teach biology at catholic school and theory of evolution? (/mindblown)
You want your kids to think objectively yet you already have this pre conceived idea that "Catholic" school brainwashes all the kids to strictly follow the teachings of the bible and views of the church. I don't know who's the one needing some critical thinking.
How can a parent willing send their child to a place that teaches their kids not to use condoms, that chastity is the only option? In this day and age of scientific enlightenment, do you really want you child learning this backwards doctrine?
How can you as a human being, justify supporting a organisation that has systemically covered up tens of thousands of child abuse and rape cases? Is your child safe? Going by the historical record - no.
There are countless reasons to boycott the Catholic school, indoctrination is but one tiny drop in the sea of the Catholic's abhorrent influence.
Amen
And the kiddy fiddling by 7% of priests? SEVEN PERCENT. It’s not a few bad apples. And the coverups by the church? Where do those values come from?
My kids, no thanks.
So what if they teach their own sceptical version of evolution. You know what else they teach, a whole bunch of demonstrably false crap from the bible. Not to my kids they don’t.
I think you have a very skewed view.
A skewed view of what?
The parasitic appendage of the Catholic Church (and most religion) corrupts anything it touches, you are blind if you look at the last 1000 years of human history and can't see how enormously detrimental it has been.
The sooner we purge it from the face of our education system the better. If you want to send your child to a privately funded school then you have every right, but religious curriculum has no place in Australian schools.
If you're going with public. You'll have to spend more time making sure your kid doesn't hang out with the wrong crew. Keep him busy with activities and homework etc and possibly invest in tutoring during VCE to give him an extra edge.
You would probably still do the same with private however a slightly less chance of the children there being of families who would let them run around doing whatever they want.
Either way. Put the time into the kid and keep them busy with structure. It's boredom and spare time when kids do stupid things.
There is a proverb in my formal country, it says "Nhàn cư vi bất thiện". Meaning very similar to what you said
It's boredom and spare time when kids do stupid things.
Public school. In Sydney you're so spoiled for choice in that regard and there's so many good selective and high performing public schools. Spend your money on tutors for weak areas and extracurricular stuff instead. If you want to go private later you can but I wouldn't waste your money on private primary, it's the same curriculum anyway.
I went to a private primary and public high school so know a fair few people on both sides. I will 100% be sending our kids to public schools.
From an outcome perspective I haven't seen much difference, from the public side I personally know engineers, doctors, pharmacists, teachers, uni lecturers, architects, successful business owners etc. Sure there were some scummy people in public schooling but there's plenty of scummy people with money who go to private schools, they will all probably flock together anyway. A public school won't limit their potential.
The biggest difference I noticed is most of the private school people have ended up being snobby entitled douchebags, not really the people I would like to hang out with (or my kids to hang out with). Especially with limited funds as you said I think you would be far better off ensuring your child has an enjoyable childhood or maybe help them out down the line instead to get a head start when they leave school.
Maybe less so. Small time criminals send their kids public but head honchos in the Mafia and Triads will be private all the way!
"If thieves steal railways, sent them to college, when they finished college they will steal the entitle network" - Ravi Zacharias
Ignore the people saying go public. Go private. Unless you live in close proximity to a good (i mean, well ranked) public school he won't get in. That's how they choose. Elsewise, selective entry can be good if he's upto scratch, though these schools tend to be dominated by rote learning book worms and not people with innate creativity and intelligence (nowadays at least).
To be brutally honest though, the quality of education has decreased tenfold over the decades. I know it sounds condescending, but the current attitude from the government is that everyone should be getting A's; when reality should be far different. So the quality suffers, public schools are at the forefront of this agenda.I wouldn't leave my kid at the mercy of the idiots we have running the country.
For what it's worth the Jewish schools are the best as they are exceptionally balanced, though these rarely fit peoples criteria for cultural reasons.
Edit: Any public school is fine until about year 8. Don't waste your money on private primary.
I tend to disagree with the comment about private primary. Primary school years mold a child. I believe certain private primary schools especially those that just focus on primary schools are worth considering.
That is a valid point. I do also question the capability of some of the public primary teachers coming straight from their teaching degrees. I've seen and met some pretty shoddy/unenthusiastic ones over the last few years. These individuals are typically filtered out of the private schooling system which is good.
On a side note, just makes me chuckle thinking back to when I was in primary school- I used to be a brat and consistently got sent out of the classroom.
private schools are almost all religious. so unless a teacher went to, say, ACU, they are unlikely to teach at a private school
Two sides of the same coin, meh.
I'd say public because I went to one and enjoyed the experience - there is something you learn going to a school with little facilities and support. The student body in my school was very proactive as a result. You learn to strive in the midst of hardships. I just wanna add as well, that a child's will to study shouldn't be policed by an overpaid, super-attentive teaching eye, nor come from religious fear. Weigh the benefits of both yourself, and then don't forget to take into account the opinion of your child him/herself.
I think a big part to consider is that this is Primary school. IMO with high school private schools offer more I don't think that advantage is as great in primary school. At least not for the first 3-4 years.
Check out MySchool - shows school finances, ICSEA stats, NAPLAN results etc:
Relative results. It's like ANCAP, it is pretty misleading information. It would be much better as absolute results.
Keep flogging that dead horse
That's the first time I said that. Perhaps you don't understand. Myschool compares similar schools based on a number of factors, like socio economic. So if you are surrounded by shit schools, it merely tells you which is the least shit.
It has both relative and absolute results - eg NAPLAN:
"The chart below displays average NAPLAN scores for each domain. The selected school's scores are displayed in blue. Also displayed are average scores for statistically similar schools (SIM) and all Australian schools (ALL). The coloured bars indicate whether the selected school's scores are above, close to, or below the other scores. "
It's hard to say. My mother was a public school teacher and believed in the system, and my brother and myself did well from public schooling. However we were pushed by other influences (including mum) towards that education, and I saw many people going through the same schooling that I did- not paying attention and not getting the resources, mostly in terms of positive interaction with teachers, they needed to prosper.
If you're going to take a lot of interest and help your child learn a great deal throughout their schooling, from reading to just talking with them, then private schooling isn't something that I see helping a great deal. A lot of the benefits I saw in my peers at university were related to structure and to having more of a tailored education facilitated by more profitable contact hours with teachers in more capable environments. If you're a busy / quiet individual it could be more advantageous to send your child to private school, but how your child will do academically is dependent on a lot of factors.
The most important thing is your relationship with knowledge. You want to feed your child's curiosity because that's the true driving force behind a child really wanting to learn. It can be made possible in a public school, but higher levels money and facilities substitute for letting those students who lack the will or understanding from lagging behind.
At least that's how I see it having graduated in 09 and spending 5 years at uni, and another 2 working with high school graduates. I'm no expert.
I went to public school, as did my wife and my kids will go to public school as well.
I don't know what it's like in the big city as I live in CQ, and ultimately it's your decision, but I personally prefer public schools. Also the money you'll save sending your child to a public school is huge. If the learning outcomes are not going to be noticeably different, why spend the extra money?
As for the quality of education you'll get, obviously you'll want to choose a decent public school. Do a bit of research/due dilligence and you'll hopefully find one that suits you.
Our little public school up here taught us well. My wife is an electrical engineer and I'm a graphic designer.
My son, who has just finished his first year of prep, can now read with minimal help and write as well. His teachers are excellent and really care about the kids.
This is all just my opinion, so whatever you end up doing, good luck!
go to my school website and look at the naplan result. Private school, imagine they need to make a profit, will they do more to save money or try to maximise the education outcome? I saw some school report from catholic, private schools, just one page report with all teachers comment, saved a lot of paper. I don't think I know a public school that print the school report on one page.
schools can and do recommend that low scoring students do not take NAPLAN in order to boost the school's average. obviously, private schools have more to lose with bad publicity. connect the dots
The real difference:
At private school, your child will make friends with children who went to private school
At public school you child will make friends with children who went to public school
I'm sure people can dish out studies showing there is no difference in education between public and private schools, on average.
You need to compare THE public school available to you, and the private schools available to you. Where you actually live will make a big difference in what the public school is like, because each one represents the local population.
Private schools represent a segment of the population, so there is less difference between them.
If you're in Sydney and your kid can get into a selective state school then put them in there:
https://bettereducation.com.au/school/secondary/nsw/nsw_top_…
In NSW of the top 20 High Schools by HSC ranking 18 were government.
If your child can get into one of these schools then don't bother with a private school.
Wonder if Burnertoasty has read this???
Good public school in a good suburb until year 6 and then go for a good selective school, if they can't get in, then you gotta fork out for a good private school.
All the while, take that 20-30k p.a. and put it away in a TD or indexed fund and give it to the kid when they're old enough (mortgage and uni fees).
The greatest gift you can give your children is their education, no one can take that away from them and they have it for life.
It is very important to consider the cost of a private school as the costs are significant, akin to having a second mortgage if you can commit financially and follow through then I believe a great private school is worth the sacrifice.
Our daughter attended our local primary school, a great school with a wide range of kids from different backgrounds. The principal was very strict on upholding the schools values, respect for others, anti bullying etc. Also the school was really supportive of getting children playing sports. Can’t under estimate the importance of participation in sport for a child’s development.
when it came to secondary school she went to a private girls school. It was expensive but the education, values, morals taught were excellent. When it comes to those teenage years peer group pressure is incredibly powerful. You need a school that is strict on upholding standards of the us as parents and also encourages children to celebrate excellence and excel. Often teenagers suffer from the tall poppy syndrome and don’t want to stand out. I found my daughters private school encouraged the girls to excel and gave them the confidence to pop their heads above the crowd. In my experience the values the school stood for and installed in the girls was just as important as their education. The pass rate for HSC was 96% from memory.
I sent my daughter to a public primary school & initially to a public high school.
I was happy with the teaching at both schools, but the feral student body became a problem in high school.
So I moved her to a Christian school & the difference was marked. It cost me a bit, but I have no targets.
My son, four years younger went to the Christian school from year 7. I'm pleased we did this. Until teachers are given more scope to maintain discipline in public schools, I can't recommend using them.
This is my personal experience of sending my daughter to a private school -
I sent my daughter to a private school in inner west Sydney that emphasizes on teaching second language since preschool. Lots of good reviews online and it looked better than the local public school next door, so I sent my daughter there.
She studied there for 7 years since preschool and when she was in year 4, one day I got a call from the school counsellor saying my daughter was so depressed and she mentioned about suicide. They insisted I should send her to a psychologist, so I did. After 4 sessions, the psychologist said she couldn't fit in the school and was bullied for some time, but she couldn't help her and she was diagnosed with ASD. I couldn't believe it, I know my daughter was the sensitive type but not that she had any serious disability.
I knew she got bullied at this private school (due to her race) and her friends were from these middle income/rich families. Their kids had nothing much to do at school and bullied others in school every day. I was sick of all these and put her in the public school next door. I didn't need her to do well academically and forget about doing selective school (ever through she did quite good in NAPLAN). I just wanted her to be happy in school.
After putting my daughter in the local public school, she initially had a few problems with friends, but after the first term, her confidence was back and she loved the challenge she got doing all these activities in the public school. She got to participate in competitions, by the end of the year, she represented her school doing public speaking competition and became a school leader. She also did so well academically and will try the selective test next year.
The things I wanted to say are:
Look beyond the nice facilities of a private school. The money you spent do not go to hiring better teachers only. It goes to their buildings, facilities and the rest to their bank. They spent huge amount in advertising too. It doesn't guarantee you a good and nurturing teacher. However, in the public school system, the teachers are nurturing. Some stay in the public school system 'cos they like to teach the kids. My son goes to a public preschool and the things he learn is way better than the $12000/year 3 days a week preschool my daughter attended.
You rather choose a real "school" than a place for these rich kids stay. They had no better things to do and bullying was part of the culture. I talked to some parents who put their kids in other schools, it seemed bullying happened in every year of school. If the school is doing some activities with the kids and they are occupied, they are happy and less chance of bullying. It seems the public school kids in my area are quite happy about their school and they have a sense of belonging and acts as a part of the community. (BTW, my daughter and son attend two different public school in inner west, both of them and very happy)
The curriculum in public has been developed for so many years. They sticks to the guideline and they need to report to the Board of Studies. The private school my daughter went to is very relaxed and after 5 years of primary, I only know that I've been homeschooling her for 5 years too. Their daily home work is mainly copying the word list. She didn't learn much of her second language. I eventually sent her to good tuition centre that really care about the student personal development rather than just result.
I hope this helps. Looking back, I rather spent the money on sports program, extracurricular activities and vacation care for my kids, so they had more chance to explore the world around them. Let them experience more in the early years. If they love the community they live in, eventually they need do something good. The main thing is to choose a good public school in a good area, then you don't need to worry so much.
Ask him where he will be happiest!
Neither. Homeschool.
There are good correspondence courses that lay it all out for you/your child. And if you're the primary educator, you can claim Centrelink right through to year 10 I believe. (Many that work at Centrelink will argue this fact, but they're WRONG.)
Yeah, I know - you probably won't do it, but anyway…
There are support groups made up of other parents around, as long as you're not in a remote country town. They share educational equipment, get together for sport, share skills (someone might know woodwork, you might know cars, someone else again computers - and you move your kids around for half a day a week).
The places that provide curriculum have qualified teachers you can phone for advice, direction, etc. if you're not sure about something.
If you're sick - someone else might take your kids for a few days, and vice-versa. The curriculum is all laid out and you mainly supervise. There's even preschool versions and you can teach them to read if your child is that young.
You can have excursions when and where you choose - in fact, everything is an excursion. And they learn real life (banking, bills, groceries, interacting with all ages)… instead of stuck in a room with peers of the same age, learning who knows what from other people's brats, LOL. Then after your day at work, and their day at school where they SHOULD have done their work, they come home with homework you have to help with - even in private school. (What exactly do we pay them for again!?)
Some people do all the curriculum themselves, but others just go with a registered education/curriculum provider. Then you don't have to even speak to anyone from government education department, explain your curriculum, compile it, etc. It's all already government approved, and the kids just work through it. You know if they're falling behind and need to add an extra 30 minutes over six months to catch up, what they can breeze through because they 'get' it, and what they need to do over again.
You never get those years again. Spend it with your kids rather than chasing $$$. Live simple, make your kids your friends for life instead of contradictory selfish immature brats many schools churn out and some never grown out of. ;-p
This is a nice plan if you want to stunt them socially.
This is ignorant garbage. The reality is homeschooled children are often better socialised, because they're not stuck in a room for hours 5 days a week with the same age group, and thus unable to relate to people of all ages. Universities often prefer homeschooled kids too. Because they know they're self-motivated and already know how to shift into the different method of study. Instead of struggling with the change from the usual high school schooling, into the very different university study methods.
Sounds like a lot of bullshit uni dont care when the kid goes to school they look at there grades and how they interview.
@Pastry: I know for a FACT it isn't 'bullshit'. I've known several homeschoolers personally, who were surprised when Uni interviewers volunteered that all other things being equal, the fact they were homeschooled was the deciding factor why they were accepted before others.
And more homeschoolers have superior grades than 'traditionally' schooled children anyway, just due to outcome-based learning. (Translation: If the child doesn't 'get it', they do it over again until they do - instead of the teacher either being unaware, or, shrugging their shoulders and moving on to not hold back the rest of the class.) This makes more homeschoolers grounded, and thus more focused and goal-orientated… They know what they want from life, and know it earlier than their age-peers, instead of just drifting along. Their focus isn't: 'It's lunch - playtime!' and 'Duh: Me zombie, have iphone'.)
I've heard the same thing too, from qualified teachers who run their own homeschool business, who received that same feedback from parents I've never met.
Besides, someone that types 'Sounds like a lot of bullshit blah blah blah' without any punctuation in sight, is hardly a shining example of the success of whatever educational gold mine you were dragged out of. Sad I have to point this out, nevertheless it combined with your irrational dislike of something you have zero personal experience with speaks volumes.
(I know you have no experience with it and are ranting based solely on personal bias, else you'd be aware of the same things.)
@GregMonarch: lol ok bloke clam down it is a opinion forum not a essay i've got nothing against home schooled students but to say universities 'favor' home schooled students is bullshit being asked to sit on the medical interview panel (MYSELF) to get to a interview you need the grades regardless of where you went to school universities look at your ATAR and for most courses that is enough for entry into a degree however courses such as med/dent/optom etc there is a interview panel in which they do not even know you are home schooled unless you tell them because it is a blind interview (not saying some interviewers wouldnt look favorably too it but it is not something on the selection criteria).
The interview process looks at a range of factors and i can assure you home school/private/public schooling play no factor into selection unless the person is from a under privileged they can applied for special consideration.
So dont come on here and insult me and say i have zero experience because it simply isn't true i never said home schooling was a bad thing but it has no correlation with the university selection process which YOU suggested and im calling it out a bs because it is like it or not
P.s from a personal level
As for the comment about the zombie thing i'd probably agree in some case regardless of the cut and paste approach in the education system the more successful people in this country went to schools like Scott and McRobs not mum and dads back yard that is a fact not an 'opinion off a mate'
@Pastry: Well, you had no problem insulting first, as if I had no experience, LOL. (Not that it excuses me though.)
I don't know how much it applies to medical-related interviews, except I do know of one young lady that interviewed to enter forensic science. The panel billed and cooed over her impressive scores, which they themselves attributed to her homeschool history.
I'm not saying they're accepted because they were homeschooled. Instead that homeschooled children aren't these backward hicks as is often made out. That on the contrary, it's been my experience over two decades Unis like homeschoolers because they're more grounded, often more mature in their thinking and interpersonal skills, relating to a wider range of people and ages and do so more easily, and have a lower dropout rate due to knowing how to simply knuckle down and study when it's required - prioritise, set goals, etc.
Edit: And it depends on the curriculum. Some parents do it alone, with airy-fairy approach - but they're in the minority. I'm not talking about those, I'm referring to proper government-approved curricula, that is aligned to set learning outcomes, which has oversight by qualified educational providers. The process to meet those requirements is stringent, and is checked it aligns on a yearly basis.
@GregMonarch: I personally know at least 12 different people ages ranging from 7-28 who were/are home schooled.
10 of those 12 are socially awkward and do not know how to interact with people outside their family.
After observing some of them for over 10 years there is not a single positive thing i can say about home schooling.
often more mature in their thinking and interpersonal skills
Mmmm no, homeschoolers are usually incredibly backward at social interaction. Even if homeschooling is better for your academic education, I would prefer to send my kids to a real school where they can learn to get along with their fellow humans. All the homeschooled people I have ever met have been either so shy I haven't even been able to engage them in a whole conversation, or perfectly confident but with a tinge of weird and creepy about them that is hard to define (maybe just from having unusual mannerisms and affectations of speech, since they didn't learn the 'normal' way from constant daily interactions with dozens/hundreds of peers). When it comes to getting a job after uni, they might be the best qualified applicant but if they creep out the interviewers and give them bad vibes then they're not going to get the job.
Unless they're hippies on a commune, doing the version where the kids can choose to play all day if they like (I forget what it's called)… I find that very difficult to believe.
I personally know 50 kids well. About 40 went to Uni, have excelled, several scoring the highest marks in their classes, and a couple highest marks in the state in their chosen field. The rest either went on to TAFE, into apprenticeships, or started their own business. All are employed last I heard - not a bludger among them. Oops, I tell a lie. One I forgot about turned into loser material on Centrelink some years ago after deciding to turn homosexual.
They all communicate and associate well, have empathy rarely seen in many of the inane brats I see today. There is a type of people they don't readily associate with… Those with foul mouths, druggies, boozers and the other general dead-heads of society like trashy skanks with tatts, and immature little boys that never grow up still playing video games long into adulthood and banging their heads to mindless rap and metal music, etc. They're just not interested in such mindless garbage. Since society has degraded to the point where this is far more common, that could certainly explain why they seem 'awkward' or 'abnormal' to such people.
Anyway, I'm secure in what I personally know and have seen. As are those I know that have done it themselves. More than those that peer in from the outside through their sneering biased lens taking a 5 second snapshot, and judging by themselves, whom if we wound history back a couple of decades, would be the abnormal and backward ones.
Those with foul mouths, druggies, boozers and the other general dead-heads of society like trashy skanks with tatts, and immature little boys that never grow up still playing video games long into adulthood and banging their heads to mindless rap and metal music, etc.
And homosexuals? I think you forgot homosexuals.
Eh!?
@stealthpaw: I guess it would depend on what you call 'socially awkward' i went to uni with a bunch of blokes that went to Melbourne high and seeing them try to pick up girls on bar night that was socially awkward however it was funny
This is all anecdotal evidence so take it with a grain of salt.
I went to a public school and I would put my child through public school in Sydney for sure.
I just went to my high school reunion last month and my classmates went on to be doctors, dentists, lots of engineers, 3 PHDs, teachers, IT, graphic design, lawyers, architects, traders at banks etc.
I've met many highly successful people who went to public schools.
On the other hand I have seen many people from private school who basically wasted all the money their parents put into their education.
I'm sure their are many successful private school kids too but what I'm saying is it doesn't matter if your son goes to private or public, he could do well either way.
Also what kind of schools are consistently the best performing every year in the HSC? Public schools? Check the rankings published in the papers every year.
Everyone keep in mind this is for Sydney. I hear it's a different story for other states e.g SA where private schools are a lot more common for even low income families.
I'll give my perspective of a former selective high school student. The facilities were shit, no bullying at all, teaching wasn't great. Lots of people didnt give a (profanity) in junior years, but by the time it was year 10/11 people started studying harder. The atmosphere is great as there are many people that work hard which adds to the motivation. It wasnt stressful at all compared to what I heard Ruse is like.
Of course as with all schools, there are also some "bad eggs" that probably didn't do as much work as they could have.
I think one of the most important thing is the people one hangs out with at school. I'm extremely thankful to my friends who had solid work ethic - which essentially forced me to have one too after a couple years of slacking off. If you are concerned with your child falling in with the wrong crowd at a public school then I guess active parenting is necessary, but there is also a "wrong crowd" in private schools too.
It also depends on which area you live, the feeder school in your catchment might have children of poor moral fibre who will in turn influence your child to be a scumbag. So you may want to send you child to a better school whether it be public of private. Its not a matter of public of private but which school turns out to be better that you can get your child into. Some research and talking to other parents and teachers can help you determine this too.
Don't base anything on your poll either it would be inaccurate as there are clearly more public school attendees than private school.
I'm a teacher. I've taught in both systems. I'm also a realist, so I'll speak the truth without fear of emotional ramifications.
In my experience, the truth is, private is incredibly better - selective private schools, even more so. You are not just paying for their education at the private school, you are paying for their social network. I'm not saying I morally approve of this reality, but it's how the world works. As a teacher, I would never send my kids to a public school. They might turn out fine, but there's a lot more they have to overcome to achieve success in the public system. Private is worth every penny, because only families who value education the same make the same decision.
This applies to the active decision to MAKE a choice of school by the parents. I guess those who are motivated enough to buy a house in the zone of a good public school, will be subject to the same social influences.
Social networking is what your child makes of it. I went to a selective private school in England. Haven't set eyes on anyone from school in 22 years. Having got in via a scholarship and being several rungs down the socioeconomic ladder from everyone else wasn't a good experience at all. Parents were always late or absent for parent-teacher meetings because the car broke down for the 50th time that year, while all the other parents turned up in new German cars. Couldn't afford to participate in any of the skiing trips to France etc.
My mother was a teacher (starting her teaching degree when I started yr8) and our local public schools were so awful that private was the lesser of 2 evils she chose.
My children are going public which is simply an economic decision. We live in the zone for a good public school and only the $25-30k a year private schools do better academically. With 3 children I would have to earn an extra $150k before tax to pay for it. This means that Long Daycare would have to raise my children which kind of defeats the purpose, as most of their academic potential is established before Kindy by parents who spend time reading to them etc
For Primary years imo public is just fine, so long as it isn't your stereotypical shithole suburb lol. Most education during those years imo is at home (basic talking, writing, reading, manners)
I remember going into first year private highschool (yr 7) and the first few maths classes were basic addition/subtraction/multiplication again.
… no I wasn't in the "leg up" program with arsonists and slow kids from Canada :P
It obviously picks up quickly but I'd def save the pennies at the primary school level.
+1 for the simpsons reference
I hear private high schools have better quality drugs, if that helps.
Plus, if your kid gets caught they'll cover it up for you nice and quiet like. Can't let that reputation get sullied now, can we?
An age old debate that you will never get the "right" answer from.
Like many others have mentioned at the end of the day it wouldn't amount to much (except maybe more "networking" opportunities in the private school circle), but it's more about the influence on work ethic and peers ie. whether they can fit in, have a good circle of friends etc. Not to generalise too much but many private school kids I've met were quite snobbish. I went to a better/more reputable public school in the suburbs and was lucky enough to meet an awesome bunch of friends who I'm still very close with. And to this day we're all doing pretty well for ourselves.
Just check the suburb you live in -
The Sydney suburb where 93% of kids go to private schools
There is an interactive guide showing percentages of Government, Catholic and Private Schools for Primary and Secondary.
In my experience, the public education curriculum is more demanding than of private schools. It's a balance judgement that you'll have to make. Talk to other parents in your area.
Let's face it, if money was not a consideration the majority of us would be sending our kids to private schools. They perform better academically overall than public schools (not including selective schools) and have better facilities etc. To say there is no difference is to be hiding from reality.
Having said that there are plenty of good public schools in certain areas.You can supplement education with tutors and other external academic programs.
Also going to a private school does not guarantee academic success. It's still up to the individual. Kids may feel pressured under the competitive environment + knowing that you are forking out a big chunk of change towards their education.
Maybe save the money you would have spent at a private school and put it towards an investment. Will help with a deposit required if he wants to purchase property down the track.. Perhaps he'll be more grateful for that?
if money was not a consideration the majority of us would be sending our kids to private schools.
Plenty of rich people go public. Of course they live in areas with the "best" public schools.
They perform better academically overall than public schools
No, the kids perform better, not necessarily the school.
When you mean "plenty" rich go public it's definitely not the majority. Plus definition of rich is pretty subjective, especially in affluent suburbs where the decent public schools are. The ultra rich don't go public. Only if their kids have been expelled from private school and the only option is the public. Seen it happen many times.
"No, the kids perform better, not necessarily the school"
Same principle..
definitely not the majority.
Of course. It is not even a majority of middle-income people here.
Plus definition of rich is pretty subjective
I simply meant people for whom the cost is not a significant barrier. The people who fly business class, not the ones with private jets.
I went to 4 schools growing up. It always felt to me like people cared more for me in public schools. In private schools they are all about face or reputation and do what they have to, to make sure there are no red flags or "problems" that they have to deal with.
In private schools they are all about face or reputation
You can get that in public schools too, but nowhere near as bad as private.
I thought our public primary was doing too much Naplan prep (headmaster driven), but heard of private schools doing lots of practice tests and training.
Why does our school care about NAPLAN? Already has a good reputation and bulging at the seams. Headmaster just wants to pad her CV?
Private if you can afford it.
The old saying "It's who you know not what you know", wealthier friends and family lead to better opportunities, and maybe the parents of one of their friends will have a boat?
I can vouch for this. I have schooled in both public and private and when i was in private schooling my friend's family were extremely wealthy, they owned a yacht. I scored a school holiday with them sailing around the pacific! A huge novelty for an adolescent teen. However it is almost impossible to keep up appearances when your own family are not as wealthy so long term its unsustainable however the "its who you know not what you know" has been very valuable in life. I didnt experience the same thing in the public system
Of my graduating cohort who found employment, about half secured their jobs due to their private school friends and their families who worked in the industry. Hopefully this changes though, as more professionals with poorer salary outcomes and job security are forced to enroll their children in the public system.
How good or shit your local primary school should play a big factor.
I went Public school all the way.
I'll be sending my kids to private primary. Difficult financially but the behaviour of private primary is very different to public.
Your kids shouls be fine at the public school but there will be a few bad eggs there that wouldn't be at the private school.
I have no idea if private is better or not because I didn't go, but if you can afford it may as well do it. Or if you want to experiment, put one kid in private and another in public. Kids who surround themselves with other smart kids tend to be more motivated and want to keep up with their peers. It promotes a better learning environment. I would assume you're getting at least some benefit from paying those high tuition fees, but it's also no guarantee if the kid isn't willing to put in the hard work.*
If it's public vs religious school, I'm not a fan of forcing religion onto kids. Let them choose for themselves whether they want religion in their lives, when they're mature enough to make the choice. This gets my goat the same as circumsizing a baby. That boy might have wanted to keep his foreskin. Let him choose for himself.
*But it's also very much worth watching this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow1-uj0ToVY
Only income earner? What about the mother?
I went to a public school which had a lot of private schools near it, many of my friends went to private schools and almost all of them got SLIGHTLY higher ATARs (1-10 more). Fast forward almost 5 years later and I would say slightly more of my public school mates have completed or are very close to finishing uni than my private school mates.
I would say most of the public school kids I know are generally a bit more friendly and 'street smart', with more self motivation too. Lots of private school friends I had quit uni or deferred after first semester as studying with no push was quite a struggle for them. I know it shouldn't all be about uni results but if you are spending so much on secondary education, uni is really the end game isn't it? If you're kid is dead set on a trade or something similar a private school is definitely not worth their time or your money!
Check out the better education website for school rankings in your area and you might be surprised how well some public schools rank. Then get ready to do a lot of the work yourself. I manage my daughters education that way. I have extensive experience in this area. Have taught for years and found that schools can play a part, but the student plays the largest part at approximately 50%, according to research. Spend a lot of time in the younger years supplementing the learning yourself to lift your child’s confidence.
Don't be obsessed by ranks in standardised testing.
If you can't make an honest assessment, then have a chat with the deputy principal at your primary school. They're quite knowledgeable when it comes to these matters as many parents will have the same concerns as you i.e transition from primary to secondary.
You can also talk to parents at the school as they're likely to have older ones in secondary at the moment. One way to meet these parents is at P&C meetings.