Hi Ozbargainers,
I am a single father with a son who is about to start primary school in Sydney. I want to give him a good education and have been considering putting him into a private school.
Obviously being the only income earner it would mean the school fees would take up quite a bit of my savings. Therefore I'm debating on whether to put him in a private or public school. What do you guys think? Will he get the same education? Appreciate your thoughts and experience!
after reading all the stories and opinions, I've come to a conclusion which just happens to be OzB's unofficial motto - "If you find a good deal, bite it" ..
Find a good deal on Public Schools (i.e. a good Public School), send your kids there. Otherwise, look for a good deal on Private School!
….Now, time to go back to checking Bitcoin value and kicking myself for not buying some weeks/months/years ago!
where is the option for home school
I think public school until highschool then switch to private where it maters, gives kids views on both sides. Thats how im gonna do it anyway.
I am probably going to do it this way as well. Atleast switch at year 10.
Based on my experiences (religious school K-10 and then academically selective public school 11-12) I would recommend you should try and send your son to a reputable public school close-by. However, if none are available then you may want to look at private schools if you can afford it.
Because the religious school I attended wasn't catchment-based, most of the friends I made were very far away. It also meant a decent amount of commuting.
At the religious school I attended, we had a few students 'asked to leave' (expelled) because they 'didn't fit the values of the school' (were gay) and it wasn't a good look for the school. However this isn't necessarily indicative of all religious schools, I've had friends go to Catholic schools that were essentially just private schools with religious education once a week.
At the public school I found that the class sizes were similar, the resources were equally as good, and there was actually a wider selection of classes offered.
At the end of the day, I think the best advice is to do your own research on schools in the area. And keep in mind, if you enrol your son and then decide that the school isn't the best fit he can always change schools later.
Asking a bunch of tight arses if you should send your kids to a free school or a paid school is not going to give you an accurate answer.
Public school is 100% fine throughout the primary years. If your child shows high aptitude in science, mathematics, etc they may well be eligible for academic scholarships to religious or otherwise independent highschools that will help with costs. What people say about networking and opportunities given through connecting with other private school families is true, but your child may well show no interest in academia and lean more in the direction of practical industry instead of university.
For what it's worth, I personally went to 2 private primary schools and had equally awful experiences at both. I was bullied by boys whose parents were very rich, who never got in trouble because their families financed the school so heavily. The staff knew; the extent of their effort to stop it was my teacher making me stand on a table, point out all of my bruises and injuries to my classmates, and tell them to keep their hands and feet to themselves. The same day at lunch time, the boys picked me up by my ankles and wrists, swung me, and threw me onto a drain grate. Reported it to my teacher, she shook her head. None of the staff ever told my family. Obviously that's 2 schools in a system of thousands, also in the early 2000s, but researching the culture of a specific school is important - don't just assume because it's an expensive private school that the quality of education, staff support, and student peers is higher.
Basically comes down to money. (Generally) The higher the social economic background of the parents (how rich they are), the better the outcomes for the kids. This is why (usually) private schools results are better than public because the kids that go there are pre-screened for high socio economic background by virtue of the tuition fees keeping low socio economic background kids out.
There is another way to pre-screen for socio-economic status and still go to a public school and that is to live in a high socio economic background suburb. Again, showing money is everything, if you look at the public schools that do well, they are invariably located in high socio economic background areas.
So if you're currently in a low socio economic area and aren't happy with your kids mixing with poor kids at the local public school you have two options. 1. go to a local private school and pay tuition fees to ensure your kid mixes with relatively richer kids than would be the case at the local public school. 2. move to a higher richer suburb and pay more in rent or purchasing price of house and send kids to the public school there.
I've read most of the comments so here's my take and maybe you’ll get an insight into why we sent our kids to private schools.
Agree totally with meumax. You can't take comments like "Oh I went to private/public and I did well/badly". Fact is that your kid will be different to this person and your situation will be different.
If we’re focusing purely on education, there will be bad schools and there will be good schools in both private and public. And like meumax said, as a general rule, children in schools from higher socio-economic backgrounds do better - public or private. The reasons for this are not that complex - smarter people generally make more money and their habits, genes, more time (mother doesn’t have to work), better food, better home environment and whatever else benefit the kids. So it follows that a kid whose parent can afford private schools do better and the public schools in richer areas do better. We’re talking about averages here - not any one individual’s circumstances. If we come down to an individual level like yours, it will depend on your circumstances - where you live, which schools are around and the type of students in them and the type of child you have should have a bearing on what you decide. And you probably won't know for sure until he's at school.
Now, how you decide. Are you focused on the purely academic side or are you looking at your kid and seeing what he needs.
Here’s our situation which may give you an insight into private school education. Four kids, all in private schools. Two are super smart and potential athletes. One is almost as smart but works super hard, reads a lot and loves art. The 4th is also smart but a bit blasé and carefree, including with school, but she’d be like that in any school. Still doing pretty good but we’d like to see better returns from her. She does love trying new things especially when it comes to sports and is outgoing. All four kids are model students when it comes to behavior. We chose these schools because of what they could offer each of our kids.
Let me first say that there is a big myth about ALL kids in private schools being from rich families. Don’t get me wrong, there is a lot of wealth. I can usually figure out if a car going the same direction as me is going to drive into the school grounds by what type of car it is (lots of Porsche, BMW and Merc sports cars and 4WDs, occasionally a Bentley or something of that ilk). The first function we went to was a parents' morning tea - huge house, different wings and a 25m pool - wow! Kindy parties at 5 star hotels or over in Watsons Bay (as someone said, there are benefits to hanging out with these people because my wife and I have a ball at these functions). But then you have the other end of the scale - families who are making sacrifices to send their kids to these schools. Obviously these families can still afford the school fees so aren't poor by definition but I’m sure the budgets are tight - they aren't going for overseas every holiday and kindy parties are at home or at the local play centre (we also have a lot of fun at these functions). We probably fit into the latter category (same category as you??).
We haven’t really encountered any kind of snobbery either. We’re pretty easy going and hang out with the whole gamut of parents. In fact, it’s probably the non-extravagant people looking down on the ones being extravagant.
What do we expect from sending our kids to these schools and paying these exorbitant fees:
Education
Like in any school there are good students and students that need more help. In our schools, they are able to cater for each individual student (personalised learning) and advertise that fact. All kids are different. Also at our schools, the teachers receive specialised training on an ongoing and regular basis from experts in psychology, education, health, cyber safety, etc. These specialists will then have a session with the relevant aged kids then a voluntary session with their parents. Teachers are passionate and dedicated because the school can afford to pay for better staff. I showed my brother one of the school reports the other day and his comment was, "Gee they put a lot of detail into the reports" - it was 13 pages long and that's for a kindy kid.
Also subject choice and facilities - our kindy kid is studying 9 subjects including Italian and and Performing Arts which have specialist teachers. There are iPads for each kindy kid to use (included with fees) where they learn technology or do maths games. In higher years we need to pay for a laptop but they'll have top notch labs, studios, theatres and classrooms.
Extra curricular activities
These schools are able to cater to your (and your kid's) heart's desires. The list of activities is endless. From social sports and activities (speech, music, dance, drama, art, tech, gymnastics, diving, etc.) to "Elite" sports programs with mentors, nutritionists and sports psychologists, custom weights sessions, development squads. You name it, they've got it. And all within the school - not external. Even in PE, our kindy kid learns to swim in the school pool and learns tennis on the school courts. There are endless clubs, debating and groups that gather at lunch to discuss subjects and issues such as women’s equality, etc. And gone are the days when my dad turned up to school and said, can I coach my son’s rugby team. Now there are specialist coaches for each sport or activity.
In the girls' school you have to pay for most extra curricular. In the boys’ school, the basic sports are free but you pay if you want private lessons, etc.
Networking
As someone else said above, it's not what you know, it's who you know. Fact is your kids are more likely to make friends with James Packer's kids if they're in a private school. Why do all these rich people send their kids to private schools? There is a reason. I do agree that there is a problem with private schools in that they widen the divide between the rich and the poor, but we as individuals can't change what is. And when the kids leave these schools there is a sense of pride about their school. Not sure that you'll hear the average public school kid beaming about the school they went to or having old boy/girl networks to fall back on.
Of course, it’s not all a bed of roses when it comes to any school. There are some naughty kids in the schools but I expect that's true of any school. What I see at our schools is that a lot of this naughtiness is brought about by privilege. If you can have anything you want, then you think you can do anything you want… unless it's held in check! I think our schools handle that well and I find it fades as the kids get older - they become less bratty. There’s probably some bullying too as with any school.
Having said all that, in the end it all comes down to you, your kid and your situation. Yours will be different to ours. Just look at your kid and do your research:
1) Can you afford it without going into too much financial stress. Don’t forget there are costs other than the fees. These are mostly if they participate in events thus are voluntary. There might be also be a voluntary building fund as someone mentioned but we’ve never felt obligated to pay it.
2) Are you in a good area and what schools are around you? There are selective public schools who do well academically because they’re selective and get the cream of the crop or the ones who work really hard. If you are focused only on the educational aspect and can get into a selective school, well done. But to get into a selective school, you'll probably have to get into an OC primary school and you'll have to pay the fees for tutoring to get them in. And now your kid is under pressure to do well. Again it comes down to you and your kid and will they thrive in this environment.
3) Does your kid excel in any one thing - sports, art, drama, music - definitely send him to a private school or a public school that “specialises” in that field.
4) Can you get into the private school you want? You can’t even get onto the waiting list for some schools or they don’t have enrolments until year 5/senior school.
There’s a lot as parents we can also do for our kids at home. Read with them regularly, encourage enthusiasm and curiosity when they’re young, teach resilience, discipline them. And the one thing that parents can give is street smarts - not a lot of teaching that at any school in my opinion. When it comes down to it, my wife and I want to be able to say to our kids, we have turned every stone and given you every opportunity. Take it and run with it as far as you can go. For our kids, they're thriving in this environment.
The wealthiest people I know are pretty miserable . The smartest person I know doesn't have a high income
As good capitalists we are becoming a nation obsessed with user pay and 'u get what you pay for' . Such an attitude erodes the value of our health and education systems. why not see the big social picture? The division that is being perpertuated in order to create economic opportunity . Nations with no private sector education are world leaders
Also history might point toward a close link between meritocracy and the rise of nations in international standing …and simarly the link between accepted privilege and institutional favouritism for particular socio-economic groups and a decline in empire/national/social power. Maybe that's baloney …any responses ?
I am a public school teacher. I would never send my children (if I have them) to a private school. I would, however, move for a decent public school. My criteria would be a mix of socio-exonomic status and cultures. Imagine taking that private school money and putting it an overseas holiday each year. What a life/education! As for the academic education - it's going to be very similar (same curriculum). The learning environment may or may not be different (it'll depend on the school and the teacher). You might like to go public for primary and see how they go - I think it's relatively common for people to go public in PS and then swap to private in HS.
I have been to both public and private secondaries. They were about the same in terms of study/academics (it's really down to the individual), however the facilities, sports, extra curriculum and social networking was much better in the private school.
My experience is put your kid for the first 5 years in public school, then secondary and onward in a semi private or fully private school! this way your child experiences the hard knocks first and appreciates the finer things later!. Worked for me!
I just finished year 12 at a public school.
As a recent student, I would ironically tell your son to go to a private school if money is not much of a factor. In a public school you mix with a diverse range of people and from this, you get a variety of people with different beliefs and worldviews that may not align with your own. Thus, your child has a high chance of mixing with people with bad influences. Also, good morals and behaviour may come from parenting, but it is maintained and practiced in schools where the child will be spending most of their time.
Personally I have fortunately not been negatively influenced by my peers but I have seen many fall susceptible to negative influences from their friends, and there lines between right and wrong become muddled in a public school.
Therefore, a private school is overall better but your child will done completely fine in Uni. Once your child reaches uni, high school does not matter anymore.
Single mum here. Hi. If you're renting then please consider whether this arrangement is going to affect your child's education. I attended seven different public schools as a child. It's not fun or healthy to frequently lose your friends and start over. If you're zoned for a good public school then consider whether you're committed to living in your catchment long term. And if you think there's a chance that you'll move then ask yourself whether you're willing to uproot your child (and how many times this may possibly happen).
My children attend a private school and it has its good and bad points. I think comparing public vs private shouldn't be the focus — rather, look at the available schools in both categories and find which will work best in your own personal situation.
South East QLD: I went to both in high school, I learnt to defend for myself and look after myself in public, private I got spoon fed all the time.
If I were to do it all over again having known what I know now, I wouldn't have changed and stayed in the public school.
There are good and bad schools in both the public and private sectors. I'd recommend visiting a few schools you are interested in during open days and forming your own opinion. As much as a bunch of strangers on the internet may think otherwise, only you know what's best for your son.
Only people that went to a public school would assume it's no different sorry. I would NEVER expose my children to the trash of Australia. Sorry.
My 2 cents
From year 7-9 I went to a public school in a bad area, the kids were ruthless and not very bright but you do learn survival and social skills.
Year 9-12 I went to a decent public school in a middle class area, the kids were way better behaved and studious, it was a big difference for sure.
I went to a top uni, and I must say I did notice most people there were from private schools. I think even though my public high school was very decent, only a handful from our year level went to this relatively prestigious uni. I did get HECS not sure if the students from private school were full fee.
Now I'm in a reasonably well paying cushy job at a large corporation, again I must say I noticed most of my colleagues graduated from private high schools… I think it's probably the network, but I'm thinking it's more family than friends..
HSC school performance results out. Quote from SMH: The top-50 schools are exclusively made up of selective schools (either partially or full) and non-government schools.
Our kids' schools both placed in top 20. :)
HSC school performance results out.
Note it is the performance of the kids at the schools. Not the ability of the schools to raise the kids scores.
If you want to find the benefits of private schooling, it may not be in the exam scores.
I understand that selective entry schools select for more gifted students (though my experience suggests that they attract a higher calibre of teacher too). But why do all these smart kids end up in non-selective entry private schools. Surely if the schooling had no effect on the child achieving their potential the rich schools would just have children of rich parents who are just as likely to be dumb as smart, and the results would ultimately be the same.
I agree with this. Selective schools I can understand being in the top 50. Private schools with no selection process should attract the same broad range of students as general public schools. Only 2 things I can think of:
1) As I said previously, smarter people generally earn more money and can afford the private schools, end up with smarter kids (due to circumstance).
2) Private schools are doing something to improve the grades.
That being said, great article in SMH about a boy from a poor family at Sydney Boys High (selective) who only rated himself as averagely smart but worked hard and got 99.85. Sometimes it's about attitude and that has a lot to do with parents and peers as well as the school. Not sure about the sporting success comment though! :)
children of rich parents who are just as likely to be dumb as smart,
You have a false premise there. ( rhetorical, deliberately?)
Intelligence is highly hereditary (similar to height) and income correlates to income (not as strongly as iq vs educational achievement).
So an elite private school can easily have, say, twice as many kids in the top bands and half as many in the lower bands compared to the local public school. But note that this difference is there at the start of schooling and persists to the end. It is not created by the private schooling.
And of course there are other reasons, such as the ability to expel kids or offer scholarships that raise the average IQ of private schools, but smarter parents is the biggest factor.
Private schooling may well increase final exam scores, but its hard to tell, against the larger effect of kids being smarter at the start.
And if kids do better at private school, controlling for ability, is it the teaching, or the peer group effect?
Only 2 things I can think of:
Number one, definitely, number 2 probably but less important, and try harder to think of more:
- peer effect
- parents who pay fees more likely to help/encourage/force kids to work hard
- parental/family role models
- private schools putting more emphasis on exam scores
- private schools discouraging weaker students from sitting ATAR.
You can make a list of possibles, but #1 is the big one.
who only rated himself as averagely smart but worked hard and got 99.85.
False modesty. Anyone working in education will know you don't get that score without both exceptional brains and hard work. He can thank his parents for both.
@manic:
I'm willing to concede that at least part of the success seen at public schools can be explained by the heritability of general intelligence.
And if kids do better at private school, controlling for ability, is it the teaching, or the peer group effect?
Based on my experience I'd say both. Though it's merely anecdote.
There's been some writing about why kids from East Asian backgrounds tend to do better at school than anglo kids. Part of the explanation was that Asian parents see a bad grade as a sign that the kid isn't working hard enough on X, whereas anglo parents are more likely to conclude that their child just isn't good at X.
The other, less politically correct, explanation is that intelligence is highly heritable and Asians (particularly Chinese, Koreans and Japanese) and Ashkenazic Jews seem to have won the genetic lottery in that regard.
I think the most important thing is to go where they'll fit in best. Public schools vary on their location, so the local school may be ok, if you're in a nice area et cetera, obviously not so much in dodgy areas.
I haven't looked into it, but I suspect that selective public schools significantly raise the bar for the public system, and isn't very representative of the bulk of schools out in the suburbs where most kids go.
With that said, I'll repeat the fitting in part, kids can be bullied or ostracised in private schools rather easily if they're from a lower socioeconomic status group. We all know that kids can be really cruel.
Also, our world rankings are falling, and I think there's a systemic problem due to politics and culture wars, so the best thing you can do is take control of your childs education, and be involved in their upbringing. Doing this will also help against your child getting involved in smoking, drugs, or falling in a wrong crowd, doing stupid child stuff like stealing, graffiti and other delinquency.
I heard from a principal that a really quick and easy thing to inspect is the toilets. I tend to agree; respectful children will not defecate on the floors and make a mess of school facilities.
Divad,
If you're looking at public non-selective schools, read this article in SMH.
It talks about what makes a difference in public non-selective schools - and that is the quality of the teachers. This makes a big difference especially in disadvantaged areas. Not so much in selective and private schools.
It talks about what makes a difference in public non-selective schools - and that is the quality of the teachers.
The writer seems to be confused. He is mixing unrelated things.
Teacher quality has been shown to make a difference for the most disadvanted students, and that school has many.
But then he measures success by the performance of the top kids, who are least affected by teacher choice.
Judging a low socioeconomic school by the number of band-6 HSC scores makes little sense.
It seems to be based on 10 scores out of 216 entries by 41 students. So those "successes" may only be two students!?
(Or am I misunderstanding how HSC works?)
Great if two Vietnamese immigrant kids are scored well, but how do the ordinary kids there do?
And thanks for the graph that shows 25% of schools are in each quartile. Duh!
Use this website to compare results of schools in your area, compare this in conjunction with fees (if they are private), and then decide.
Your question is inherently wrong, because it implies all public schools are similar, and all private schools are similar.
I care much about my child's upbringing, but the school is only responsible for part of that. I think a parent's support, and activities outside of school, make a huge difference.
I would never spend a fortune on an expensive private school, because my child would end up being raised among children of a skewed demographic (i.e. wealthy children only), which I think is unhealthy. My child goes to a cheap-ish private school (couple of thousand a year), among kids of every type of background.
The thousands you can save by not sending your child to a hyperexpensive school can still contribute to a child's upbringing, by spending it instead on clubs, music, overseas travel, etc.
Depends on the location. A public school in Mosman is very different to a public school in Liverpool. (I grew up and live in Liverpool, so I’m not trying put down the area - I’m just stating a fact).
I know of public high schools in Liverpool that have 15 total students out of 200 in a grade that are eligible to sit the HSC and receive an ATAR due to marks throughout the year.
I also know ex-students of Randwick Boys and Girls high school where around 95% of their year 12 finishers end up at UNSW.
So yeah. Area is everything when it comes to public education. Schools in the west are significantly disadvantaged compared to those in the east and north.
In general, especially in the west I would highly recommend catholic (regardless of your family’s religion) or private education if it fits into your budget without having to stress and save for it. I see it as the difference between staying in a hotel vs a motel when you travel.
Like of course if you stay in a motel when you visit a new city you’re still going to get to see the city in the same way as a hotel - you might even have a bit of extra money to do more things in the city. But end of the day don’t you want to have a safe, comfortable place, perhaps in a more convenient location with nicer higher quality amenities to come back to?